Question about QR

[Burklight]

So I've experienced this a few times on enemies like "The Immovable," and also with my own war masters. I don't believe QR works the same was as it does in FEH. I think how it works is it actually cancels your opponents follow up attack in addition to giving you one. It's very possible this is a bug if it's true, or I could be missing something. There were multiple points where I had a ~25 AS QR user take a hit from a 35 AS assassin only to get hit once and double in response. Can anyone confirm this interaction? If this is a real thing it might open the door for slower characters.

[dragonlordsd]

1 hour ago, Burklight said:

So I've experienced this a few times on enemies like "The Immovable," and also with my own war masters. I don't believe QR works the same was as it does in FEH. I think how it works is it actually cancels your opponents follow up attack in addition to giving you one. It's very possible this is a bug if it's true, or I could be missing something. There were multiple points where I had a ~25 AS QR user take a hit from a 35 AS assassin only to get hit once and double in response. Can anyone confirm this interaction? If this is a real thing it might open the door for slower characters.

The official definition for quick riposte (according to the wiki) is: "If foe initiates combat while unit’s HP is ≥ 50%, unit makes guaranteed follow-up attack."

So that shouldn't be how it works. That said, I remember the exact same thing occuring for me. I've got two theories:

1. There's some ability that we've overlooked that prevents followups while he's on his last lifebar. This would be similar to other demonic beast abilities that prevent critical hits or effective against damage.

2. The game's programming does not allow for four rounds of combat.

The latter should be easy to disprove. Can someone test that?

[Burklight]

50 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

The official definition for quick riposte (according to the wiki) is: "If foe initiates combat while unit’s HP is ≥ 50%, unit makes guaranteed follow-up attack."

So that shouldn't be how it works. That said, I remember the exact same thing occuring for me. I've got two theories:

1. There's some ability that we've overlooked that prevents followups while he's on his last lifebar. This would be similar to other demonic beast abilities that prevent critical hits or effective against damage.

2. The game's programming does not allow for four rounds of combat.

The latter should be easy to disprove. Can someone test that?

I can rule out #2 because gauntlets / brave weapons. Unless that's somehow counted as one round. As for #1, I initially thought the same until I saw my units behaving the same way. To be totally clear, I haven't really done any testing on this and have no idea wtf is going on. 

[Vorena]

By the way, what the hell is QR?

[De Geso]

13 minutes ago, Vorena said:

By the way, what the hell is QR?

Quick Riposte.

[dragonlordsd]

57 minutes ago, Burklight said:

I can rule out #2 because gauntlets / brave weapons. Unless that's somehow counted as one round. As for #1, I initially thought the same until I saw my units behaving the same way. To be totally clear, I haven't really done any testing on this and have no idea wtf is going on. 

That was my point. From the system's perspective (ie, the underlying code), I don't know how it counts "rounds".

But this is simple to test.

Someone just needs to equip quick riposte on one of their units and let an enemy unit that can double them attack. If they go four rounds, then that would mean the system can calculate four rounds.

[Technoweirdo]

Just wanted to chime in and say "You're not alone".

Spoiler

Now, my Raphael might be Spd-blessed, but no god can create miracles like him not getting natrually doubled by swordmasters.

i.e. Yes, they changed Quick Riposte to be quicker than ever.
Would also explain why Wary Fighter's no longer in the game,
And why anyone looking at Fortress Knight / Great Knight and their -100 Spd should look at War Master instead.
Or they screwed up the implementation, but it's probably the former. Probably.

[dragonlordsd]

7 minutes ago, Technoweirdo said:

Now, my Raphael might be Spd-blessed, but no god can create miracles like him not getting natrually doubled by swordmasters.

i.e. Yes, they changed Quick Riposte to be quicker than ever.
Would also explain why Wary Fighter's no longer in the game,
And why anyone looking at Fortress Knight / Great Knight and their -100 Spd should look at War Master instead.
Or they screwed up the implementation, but it's probably the former. Probably.

Thanks for this. While I'd like to assume this is intentional, the fact remains that this is NOT how the system works in Heroes, and the descriptions make no reference to preventing follow ups. Given that quick riposte is one of the last available skills, I think this actually may be developer oversight. I think the battle system is NOT capable of handling more than 3 "rounds" of combat at a time.

[Technoweirdo]

10 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Thanks for this. While I'd like to assume this is intentional, the fact remains that this is NOT how the system works in Heroes, and the descriptions make no reference to preventing follow ups. Given that quick riposte is one of the last available skills, I think this actually may be developer oversight. I think the battle system is NOT capable of handling more than 3 "rounds" of combat at a time.

Maybe.

The only other thing like Quick Riposte in the game is the One-Two Punch -- Gauntlet Art for Dedue and Alois.
Playing Deer, so I don't have Dedue. Forgot to recruit Alois too. <.<

[Burklight]

If this is basically confirmed, I think it's safe to say that having at least one war master is probably going to be looked at as a requirement with all the super fast enemies that get thrown at you later on.

[dragonlordsd]

1 hour ago, Technoweirdo said:

Maybe.

The only other thing like Quick Riposte in the game is the One-Two Punch -- Gauntlet Art for Dedue and Alois.
Playing Deer, so I don't have Dedue. Forgot to recruit Alois too. <.<

Same. Can someone test that? Basically, just have Dedue use it on someone faster than him, see if they can double normally.

@Burklight Looks like it. This skill was ok, but if this is true, it's pretty darn broken.

Edited August 13, 2019 by dragonlordsd

[timon]

I find it unlikely that every single one of you had it, but just so you know it, a "shield" adjudant negates follow up attacks.

[Burklight]

I don't think I've ever used a shield adjunct...and the Immovable One for sure didn't have one of those.

[dragonlordsd]

As far as I know, the series history goes something like this:

1-3: Not possible to go multiple rounds. Also, I don't believe brave weapons in their current form existed either.

4-5: Possible to go INFINITE rounds. In theory (though I don't know if it is actually possible to create this scenario in game) you could lock up the game by creating a situation in which combat would never end.

6-8: Brave weapons exist, but there are no skills, so it's not possible to go more than 3 rounds (I think. Need to double check)

9-10: First incarnation of modern skills. You can add extra attacks, but not extra rounds via adept or astra. This is not the same as skills in 4-5, which add extra rounds (ie, the enemy can respond before you get the next attack)

11-12: No skills

13-14: Pair up attacks now allow for an extra attack. Not sure how this is handled internally. Counter also allows for response damage.

15: Same as 9-10

Heroes: First appearance of quick riposte as a skill.

So, it is possible they didn't take this into account when programming the battle system, but I don't know. It is interesting.

[Technoweirdo]

14 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

As far as I know, the series history goes something like this:

[stuff]

So, it is possible they didn't take this into account when programming the battle system, but I don't know. It is interesting.

I'm told that Fates' ranged S-rank weapons allowed for a weird "Everyone doubles each other" situation if you could set up the right conditions. Just never saw screens of it in action.
But assuming that's true, it should be the same here too unless something under the hood was changed.

[NegativeExponents-]

1 hour ago, timon said:

I find it unlikely that every single one of you had it, but just so you know it, a "shield" adjudant negates follow up attacks.

They don't prevent follow-up, they just shield a unit so they take less damage and survive the second hit.

EDIT: On topic, I believe QR preventing doubles was not INITIALLY intentional going by its description but later decided to just combine it Wary Fighter and forgot to update the previous description.

Edited August 13, 2019 by NegativeExponents-

[Technoweirdo]

Bumping this because a) not many people know QR's Wary Fighter-like second effect and b) ...

Spoiler

One-Two Punch also grants a follow-up while disabling the enemy's.
Did they manage to screw up the implementation for not one but two Abilities and Combat Arts? Or is this intentional? We'll never know~
But do know it doesn't work how you think it should. lol

Only thing left to do is find out what happens you get a guaranteed follow-up against someone with a guaranteed follow-up.
Surely it'll revert to a speed check...

[PPPPPPP270]

Isn't things like brave weapons and gauntlets operate like they auto proc adept all the time well that was how it operated in FE4/5. I don't know how adept operated in PoR/RD with brave weapons. 

How does Bernie work with the brave bow? I just never see that crest proc on Bernie because most enemies you use a brave bow on dies before I can notice. I also have a big habit of skipping animations in the battle screen.

[Technoweirdo]

1 hour ago, PPPPPPP270 said:

Isn't things like brave weapons and gauntlets operate like they auto proc adept all the time well that was how it operated in FE4/5. I don't know how adept operated in PoR/RD with brave weapons. 

How does Bernie work with the brave bow? I just never see that crest proc on Bernie because most enemies you use a brave bow on dies before I can notice. I also have a big habit of skipping animations in the battle screen.

Don't have Bernie so I can't check (and consecutive attacks aren't quite the same as follow-ups...), but it's simple enough to check without overkill.
Grab some Training Gauntlets, find an Armor / Fortress Knight, and have her punch them. For science.

[Burklight]

2 hours ago, PPPPPPP270 said:

Isn't things like brave weapons and gauntlets operate like they auto proc adept all the time well that was how it operated in FE4/5. I don't know how adept operated in PoR/RD with brave weapons. 

 How does Bernie work with the brave bow? I just never see that crest proc on Bernie because most enemies you use a brave bow on dies before I can notice. I also have a big habit of skipping animations in the battle screen.

I'm fairly sure Bernie's crest works the same way adapt did in previous games, meaning it wouldn't work with a brave weapon or gauntlets. My reasoning for this is, again, The Immovable One has the same crest, and I've seen it proc on his QR attacks, giving him 3 attacks instead of the usual 2 from QR. Meaning the extra hit had to be like a brave effect because they already had the second round of combat. 

I'm hoping that logic actually makes sense, as I'm not sure I can clarify it better.

[MegaGax]

3 hours ago, Burklight said:

I'm fairly sure Bernie's crest works the same way adapt did in previous games, meaning it wouldn't work with a brave weapon or gauntlets. My reasoning for this is, again, The Immovable One has the same crest, and I've seen it proc on his QR attacks, giving him 3 attacks instead of the usual 2 from QR. Meaning the extra hit had to be like a brave effect because they already had the second round of combat. 

I'm hoping that logic actually makes sense, as I'm not sure I can clarify it better.

I actually have gotten a crest proc with Bernie while using a brave bow, she attacked thrice instead of just twice. I was using it on an armor knight to test this theory out so it was able to tank the damage from the first two hits, she crit on the third one though.

Edit: On second thought I can't remember if it was actually the brave bow, or she was just naturally doubling with a silver bow, but I do remember her attacking three times.

Edited August 23, 2019 by MegaGax