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Ottservia

I want another villain like Grima*3H spoilers*

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Okay so I've been playing three houses and the story is fantastic and one thing it truly does well is morally ambiguity especially in how it uses Edelgard as a Villain in 3 of the 4 routes. Complex and morally gray villains are great and it's a nice refresher after all the pure evil stuff we've gotten previously like with Grima and Garon. I dunno though there was something inherently charming about Grima that three houses quite replicate if you ask me. I love me a good pure evil villain like Grima cause they're just so much fun. They're totally evil and they're totally aware of that fact but they don't care because they're having a blast doing it and I can't help but have fun right along with them. That kinda villain really isn't present in 3H, it's not a bad thing mind you but I just kinda miss it honestly.

Edited by Ottservia

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If we get a Genealogy remake, I'm sure your itch will be scratched. Also, aren't there kinda non-morally-grey villains too? Like, the main antagonists of the Deer and Church routes? You know?

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2 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

If we get a Genealogy remake, I'm sure your itch will be scratched. Also, aren't there kinda non-morally-grey villains too? Like, the main antagonists of the Deer and Church routes? You know?

hopefully. And yeah TWSITD does exist but they lack the sheer amount of charm that Grima just oozes. Like they don't seem to be having as much fun as he is(well except for maybe the death knight and Kronya but it's just not the same)

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I think Nemesis was Grima esque. He's not very talkative and his 10 Elite buddies won't say a word, even to their descendants, but for the one chapter he's active he's treated like a force of nature sweeping across the continent you must stop. He also got owned by Claude and Byleth's GOAT Friendship. Friendship is also what put Grima and Anankos in the grave iirc correctly.

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1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

hopefully. And yeah TWSITD does exist but they lack the sheer amount of charm that Grima just oozes. Like they don't seem to be having as much fun as he is(well except for maybe the death knight and Kronya but it's just not the same)

That's true. It doesn't help that Kronya gets yeeted out of the story at record speeds. I definitely do miss villains that just love being villains and aren't just pissed off at something or another. 

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That type of villains do have potential. Their track record in Fire Emblem isn't good at all but there's something to say for villains who adore being villains. 

The best examples would be villains like Metalface from Xenoblade or Hades from Kid Icarus. They have so much fun in their villainy that it gives them a weird sense of charisma. 

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 Just play suikoden 2. Luca Blight is the best villain of that type and is not even close. I really want to post a certain scene bu would be spoiler.

Edited by Flere210

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35 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

I think Nemesis was Grima esque. He's not very talkative and his 10 Elite buddies won't say a word, even to their descendants, but for the one chapter he's active he's treated like a force of nature sweeping across the continent you must stop. He also got owned by Claude and Byleth's GOAT Friendship. Friendship is also what put Grima and Anankos in the grave iirc correctly.

that's my problem with nemisis though he doesn't speak. One of the reasons I love Grima so much is because of his dialogue like this small exchange right before the final chapter of awakening:

Quote

Grima
And so it ends, Robin. See how frail these humans bonds of yours are? How short lived? How pointless? You have all thrown your lives away, and the result is the same!


Robin
We're not dead yet!


Grima
Detail, details. *sigh* But yes, I suppose it's time I got you all off my back, so to speak—permanently.


Robin
No...


Grima
No, you don't want this, do you? You do have a choice, you know. It doesn't have to be this way. You can still save all your friends... Become one with me, and we shall spare their lives. ...Refuse, and watch as I rend the flesh from their bones!


Robin
...I...


Chrom
No, Robin! Don't...do it...


Lissa
He's/She's lying... It's...a trap...


Grima
NOW! I will have your decision! Will you save these worms? Will you JOIN ME and become a GOD?

 

Submit to Grima?

No

Robin
Do you think me a fool? You'll kill them anyway!


Grima
...Well, of COURSE I would. I only thought you might want to leave your comrades with a heroic, selfless image. ...But so be it. Leave them with the final memory that you were their undoing!

I fucking love shit like that cause he's just a smug asshole and it's so god damn entertaining. Like he just doesn't give a shit and it's beautiful

Edited by Ottservia

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46 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Friendship is also what put Grima and Anankos in the grave iirc correctly.

Yes and no, at least on Grima's part. It's more implied that friendship is what brought Robin back if they chose to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

Anankos I can't say I remember too well...

Edited by Light Strategist

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A villain doesn't need to have depth. But they still need to make sense. The Demon King in Eirika's route in FE8 is pretty of an example. He is a very simple guy with two very simple goals in life: 1. Cause as much pain and suffering as possible. 2. Destroy the Sacred Stones, so you don't get imprisoned by some dumb heroes again. And all of his actions are consistent with those goals.

The thing with the Fates and Awakening villains is that the writers are so desperate to make the player hate them to the point where their actions are utterly nonsensical.
Garon is the most obvious example. He pursuits two goals that are inconsistent with each other: 1. He wants to kill Corrin. 2. He wants Corrin to live and suffer as much as possible. Which of these goals he pursues at the moment depends entirely on what allows him to be the most blatant douche to the player in whatever scene he is in. To the point where at one time he even attacks his own freaking invasion force. Because apparently for that one chapter he just doesn't want to conquer Hoshido anymore.

It's impossible to hate this guy. Not because he is one-dimensional evil but because he isn't even a person at all. He is a complete tool.

Edited by BrightBow

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2 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

A villain doesn't need to have depth. But they still need to make sense. The Demon King in Eirika's route in FE8 is pretty of an example. He is a very simple guy with two very simple goals in life: 1. Cause as much pain and suffering as possible. 2. Ensure that you don't get imprisoned by some dumb heroes again by destroying the tools that make this possible. And all of his actions are consistent with those goals.

The thing with the Fates and Awakening villains is that the writers are so desperate to make the player hate them to the point where their actions are utterly nonsensical.
Garon is the most obvious example. He pursuits two goals that are inconsistent with each other: 1. He wants to kill Corrin. 2. He wants Corrin to live and suffer as much as possible. Which of these goals he pursues at the moment depends entirely on what allows him to be the most blatant douche to the player. To the point where at one point he even attacks his own freaking invasion force. Because apparently for that one chapter he just doesn't want to conquer Hoshido anymore.

It's impossible to hate this guy. Not because he is one dimensional evil but because he isn't even a person. He is a complete tool.

Garon's just schizophrenic. Leave him alone.

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23 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

A villain doesn't need to have depth. But they still need to make sense. The Demon King in Eirika's route in FE8 is pretty of an example. He is a very simple guy with two very simple goals in life: 1. Cause as much pain and suffering as possible. 2. Ensure that you don't get imprisoned by some dumb heroes again by destroying the tools that make this possible. And all of his actions are consistent with those goals.

The thing with the Fates and Awakening villains is that they are blatantly set up to make the player hate them, to the point where their actions are utterly nonsensical. Garon is the most obvious example. He pursuits two goals that are inconsistent with each other: 1. He wants to kill Corrin. 2. He wants Corrin to live and suffer as much as possible. Which of these goals he pursues at the moment depends entirely on what allows him to be the most blatant douche to the player. To the point where at one point he even attacks his own freaking invasion force. Because apparently for that one chapter he just doesn't want to conquer Hoshido anymore.

It's impossible to hate this guy. Not because he is one dimensional evil but because he isn't even a person. He is a complete tool.

you do realize that Garon being nothing more than an inhuman tool is kind of the point of the story. He's nothing more than a puppet of Anankos meant to deceive Hoshido and Nohr into all out war in order to kill humanity. The fact that Garon's goals are so counter intuitive and nonsensical to each other is kind of the point because well that's not Garon. It's a lie. It's a deception which is perfectly in line with the themes and ideas that fates's story wants to explore which is a story all about deception and being able to look beyond it. His actions aren't supposed to make sense because if they did you wouldn't question anything which is what the narrative wants you to do. It wants to think that something is clearly wrong with Garon. A villain's actions don't even to make sense so long as it is conducive to the themes and ideas the story wants to explore and in fates that is clearly the case. 

Edited by Ottservia

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Just now, Ottservia said:

His actions aren't supposed to make sense because if they did you wouldn't question anything which is what the narrative wants you to do. It wants to think that something is clearly wrong with Garon. A villain's actions don't even to make sense so long as it is conducive to the themes and ideas the story wants to explore and in fates that is clearly the case. 

What themes and ideas? Maybe the theme how being willing to invade a nation and sacrifice thousands of innocent people for your personal convenience makes you the greatest hero imaginable? And that the only people who disagree will even come back from the grave briefly just to beg for your forgiveness?
And how does Garon's actions being nonsensical from an in-universe perspective play into these themes?

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3 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

What themes and ideas? Maybe the theme how being willing to invade a nation and sacrifice thousands of innocent people for your personal convenience makes you the greatest hero imaginable? And that the only people who disagree will even come back from the grave briefly just to beg for your forgiveness?
And how does Garon's actions being nonsensical from an in-universe perspective play into these themes?

I just see it as Garon being semi-possessed by Anankos and just suffering from the same psychopathy that Anankos actually does.

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11 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

What themes and ideas? Maybe the theme how being willing to invade a nation and sacrifice thousands of innocent people for your personal convenience makes you the greatest hero imaginable? And that the only people who disagree will even come back from the grave briefly just to beg for your forgiveness?
And how does Garon's actions being nonsensical from an in-universe perspective play into these themes?

Fates is a story about deception and being able to peer beyond the water's surface in order to discover the hidden truth underneath. Garon is a physical representation of deception in the sense that everything he does is in regards to perpetuating the lie of what Nohr really is. The Garon we see throughout the game is not the real Garon. He's just a walking corpse puppet masquerading as Garon to carry out Anankos's bidding. The narrative makes it a point not to trust him or the reputation for Nohr that he's built and anyone who does is considered wrong by the narrative. Corrin does this throughout the entirety of birthright and throughout half of conquest and they are consistently punished for it. It's only because his actions don't make sense that Corrin begins to question his actions which is the entire point of the story. I could write a whole essay on the thematic nuances of fates's story but I already have(at least 2/3rds of it anyway) and if you want my full thoughts check my sig. This starting to get off topic.

Edited by Ottservia

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16 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Fates is a story about deception and being able to peer beyond the water's surface in order to discover the hidden truth underneath. Garon is a physical representation of deception in the sense that everything he does is in regards to perpetuating the lie of what Nohr really is. The Garon we see throughout the game is not the real Garon. He's just a walking corpse puppet masquerading as Garon to carry out Anankos's bidding. The narrative makes it a point not to trust him or the reputation for Nohr that he's built and anyone who does is considered wrong by the narrative. Corrin does this throughout the entirety of birthright and throughout half of conquest and they are consistently punished for it. It's only because his actions don't make sense that Corrin begins to question his actions which is the entire point of the story. I could write a whole essay on the thematic nuances of fates's but I already have(at least 2/3rds of it anyway) and if you want my full thoughts check my sig. This starting to get off topic.

So the superficial truth is that Garon and Nohr are evil and the hidden truth is that... Garon and Nohr are evil?

...also personally I would have preferred that Corrin would start to begin to question his actions because they are... you know, evil. Garon is a monster. Whether he is a literal or merely a metaphorical monster should not matter to any decent person. So acting as if this distinction is the crux of it all just makes Corrin look even more awful.

Again, Sacred Stones. You may notice that the doubts of the three Grado generals into their Emperor come entirely from his orders being evil and unjust.

Edited by BrightBow

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Sumeragi was a war mongering psychopath to the point he congratulated his children on becoming excellent child soldiers. Plus Garons children all abandoned him in Rev when Corrin doesn't choose either side. 

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3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The best examples would be villains like Metalface from Xenoblade or Hades from Kid Icarus. They have so much fun in their villainy that it gives them a weird sense of charisma. 

And Metal Face didn't overstay his welcome, I give the game credit for not keeping him around to the end. They chose the moment to get rid of him perfectly. 

Hades stays around much longer than Metal Face, but they managed to make it work. He gets one chapter of utmost importance where you get to know him, he then fades into the chorus of comedy through the following three story arcs, and then at last the game refocuses on him, which it does well enough. Sakurai didn't think stories are important to games, but KIU made a good lighthearted Pixar/Dreamworks-worthy adventure you'd have few issues making into a TV show.

These kinds of villains aren't my favorite. They're annoying, they're people you want to hate, but that's part of their nature. And that smugness that likes seeing you angered is what makes them good. I felt Malos captured this as well.

 

 

 

I can't respond to the opening post, I skipped right past it not having played 3H yet. But I just wanted to skim the topic anyhow and see if there was anything I could read in it.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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5 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Friendship is also what put Grima and Anankos in the grave iirc correctly.

 

4 hours ago, Light Strategist said:

Anankos I can't say I remember too well...

I think the writers TRIED to make it sound like Anankos was finished off thanks to the strength of your army's bonds. In reality, what actually happened is Corrin said one line about them working together to win, and then kinda forgot about it. I think they tried to prompt the player to split up their forces to take out Anankos's legs at the same time, then meet back up at the head to take him out quickly, which is a decent way of reinforcing that theme through gameplay. But other than that, Corrin may as well have just said ,"Please, we have Ryoma, Xander, and myself. If anything, WE'RE the final boss."

I will give Awakening props for how they handled their final battle though. As was already stated in this topic, the way Grima interacted with the heroes was pretty funny to watch. Plus, considering the whole friendship thing they were going for, they actually did a good job at integrating it, what with the whole returning from the shadow realm/eternal abyss/my friend's basement and Robin's resurrection at the end of the game. But I think I got a little off-topic.

I do enjoy a good "evil-for-the-sake-of-evil-and-loving-every-second-of-it" villain every now and again. In this case, though, I'm not sure it would have fit with the tone of the game. Not to say that they couldn't have made it work, but it would have been tricky, I think. 

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8 hours ago, Ottservia said:

you do realize that Garon being nothing more than an inhuman tool is kind of the point of the story. He's nothing more than a puppet of Anankos meant to deceive Hoshido and Nohr into all out war in order to kill humanity. The fact that Garon's goals are so counter intuitive and nonsensical to each other is kind of the point because well that's not Garon. It's a lie. It's a deception which is perfectly in line with the themes and ideas that fates's story wants to explore which is a story all about deception and being able to look beyond it. His actions aren't supposed to make sense because if they did you wouldn't question anything which is what the narrative wants you to do. It wants to think that something is clearly wrong with Garon. A villain's actions don't even to make sense so long as it is conducive to the themes and ideas the story wants to explore and in fates that is clearly the case. 

That speaks more on how Anankos is a poorly handled villain (namely from how he manages to both do too much in the story yet be so unneeded in the setting as an active force) than about Garon's strength as a character.

7 hours ago, BrightBow said:

So the superficial truth is that Garon and Nohr are evil and the hidden truth is that... Garon and Nohr are evil?

...also personally I would have preferred that Corrin would start to begin to question his actions because they are... you know, evil. Garon is a monster. Whether he is a literal or merely a metaphorical monster should not matter to any decent person. So acting as if this distinction is the crux of it all just makes Corrin look even more awful.

Again, Sacred Stones. You may notice that the doubts of the three Grado generals into their Emperor come entirely from his orders being evil and unjust.

CQ's key failing is that it's ultimately a villain campaign but still tries to frame the Lord as a force for righteousness ala Marth. Hence contrivances like Azura's ball that let Corrin be able to help crush Hoshido but still be "a hero."

Edited by Eryon

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Eh, not a big fan of those myself.

I'd rather have an Arvis or an Edelgard any day of the week instead off some of the other FE saturday cartoon villains.

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I like a mixture of both. A morally grey villain like Rhea, Arvis, or Edelgard to give the conflict some intimacy and realism. But in the background, I like it when there is something eldritch, terrifying, and mysterious - something we can speculate on while the main conflict is happening.

 

Like, Game of Thrones' Others/White Walkers were super interesting, menacing enigmas until two of the most idiotic showrunners on the planet managed to make them lame and irrelevant in a single episode. 

Edited by Etheus

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Rhea's breakdown was fucking fantastic and I'll take a million of those before I take another "I'm just evil" big-bad.

 

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On 8/16/2019 at 3:47 AM, Eryon said:

That speaks more on how Anankos is a poorly handled villain (namely from how he manages to both do too much in the story yet be so unneeded in the setting as an active force) than about Garon's strength as a character.

CQ's key failing is that it's ultimately a villain campaign but still tries to frame the Lord as a force for righteousness ala Marth. Hence contrivances like Azura's ball that let Corrin be able to help crush Hoshido but still be "a hero."

conquest's key failing is precisely what brightbow said, that garon is a completely inconsistent and garbage villain. calling the other fates into the matter doesn't strengthen the plot at all, rather just makes it worse.

 

EDIT: to elaborate slightly: if garon were more just outwardly evil (on the brightbow "corrin must suffer" axis) then conquest would have been better, as the game would have been corrin's rebellion and overthrowing of garon.  if garon were less outwardly evil (on the brightbow "but corrin must live" axis) then conquest would have been better, as we could empathize with corrin picking his side in this matter where he's blatantly the aggressor in the wrong

Edited by Integrity

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2 hours ago, Integrity said:

conquest's key failing is precisely what brightbow said, that garon is a completely inconsistent and garbage villain. calling the other fates into the matter doesn't strengthen the plot at all, rather just makes it worse.

 

EDIT: to elaborate slightly: if garon were more just outwardly evil (on the brightbow "corrin must suffer" axis) then conquest would have been better, as the game would have been corrin's rebellion and overthrowing of garon.  if garon were less outwardly evil (on the brightbow "but corrin must live" axis) then conquest would have been better, as we could empathize with corrin picking his side in this matter where he's blatantly the aggressor in the wrong

Once again I would like to raise the argument that Garon's actions being inconsistent is actually the point of the narrative's overall message. Garon in this story represents deception as everything he does throughout the course of both Birthright and Conquest perpetuate the idea that Nohr is nothing more than militrant and brutal country that is ruled with an iron fist and that all nohrians are nothing but brutal war mongers. Though that' is not at all what Nohr is truly like as shown through the nohrian royals as well as the underground market that is seen near the end of birthright. However, That deception for the most part works because everyone is too busy looking at the surface of Garon's actions to really question them. No one really questions Garon. They all believe in the veil of deception he's the built. The story makes it very clear that that line of thinking is incorrect in both birthright and conquest. Anyone who believes in the lies that Garon has built is considered by the narrative. Anyone who trusts Garon is considered wrong by the narrative. This is shown time and time again most prominently through Corrin. In birthright they blame Garon for everything which causes them to not realize the contradiction present in them choosing to side with Hoshido because Garon really isn't the one at fault here. It's anankos but Corrin believes Garon is the one at fault cause they aren't looking past the surface of his actions. The story makes a point of expressing that numerous times throughout the course of the story. In failing to recognize that Azura dies. In conquest(at least at first) Corrin trusts Garon and follows his orders without much hesitation or question. For this they are punished for it by being forced to witness the slaughtering of countless innocent people. It is only after this that the inconsistency in Garon's actions vs what Nohr truly stands for comes to light and they begin to question it. When they begin the question it, the narrative rewards them with a semi-answer. A kernal of the truth if you will. I have my own problems with the way conquest handles that plot point but I can appreciate the thematic purpose behind it even though it kinda generates a plot hole but hey nothing is perfect.   

Edited by Ottservia

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