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maninbluejumpsuit

Is it just me, or is wyvern ride/lord kinda way strong?

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Yeah it's REALLY GOOD Edelgard, Hilda and Petra(although Assassin and Swordmaster are just equally amazing for her) are too good even Leonie if you train her hard in flying and axe, Claude too if he counts since its technically a unique canon class for him.

Edited by Mage Goddess Lysithea

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Don't worry, it's not just you. Actually, Wyvern Rider/Lord being a great class in almost every game is a somewhat popular opinion between the community.

They have high move, stats, great weapon choices, flying movement, good constitution (on games that use the mechanic) and a somewhat easy access to get rid of the bow bonus damage (which..might not even end up being a problem *looking at wyverns with high defense*) and FE10 is something. With this, their only weakness is magic and a overkiller unit (example: Sniper doubling a Wyvern *with Flyer Weakness* with a Silver Bow). But since overkillers are somewhat rare in non-high-difficulty, magic is everything.

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2 minutes ago, BergelomeuSantos said:

Don't worry, it's not just you. Actually, Wyvern Rider/Lord being a great class in almost every game is a somewhat popular opinion between the community.

Pretty much.

I'd say the class is too fast. I understand why it'd be faster than Knight/General, but WRs sacrifice too little in Str/Def for that extra Spd and delicious mobility. Or, more enemy Bows are needed, or, Knights need stat buffs to push them notably ahead of WRs.

The only games where I would call WRs bad would be FE3B1, where dismounting hurts their stats and the two good fliers of Palla and Catria come much too late to be useful. They'd be good in FE4, but Altena shows up too late with magic everywhere in sight for much of her limited existence. Later FE12 on the harder difficulties b/c low Spd cap. And Awakening, where they can have their uses, but it's better to just have them ferry a grounded ally in Pair Up and then swap to them for handling a massive enemy phase.

Yet, of all WRs, the only one I'd call downright bad is Eda. Who lacks her brother's bases, his Con, his Sword Rank, his Movement Stars, his Critical Coefficient, and can't use his Dragonpike. All whilst having the same availability, and suffering the same massive -3 Str, -2 Skl/Spd, and -5 Def caused by dismounting when indoors. And even then, Eda is only your third (and last if you pick Shannam route) flier in FE5, so she still has some visiting/ferry utility.

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8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Yet, of all WRs, the only one I'd call downright bad is Eda. Who lacks her brother's bases, his Con, his Sword Rank, his Movement Stars, his Critical Coefficient, and can't use his Dragonpike. All whilst having the same availability, and suffering the same massive -3 Str, -2 Skl/Spd, and -5 Def caused by dismounting when indoors. And even then, Eda is only your third (and last if you pick Shannam route) flier in FE5, so she still has some visiting/ferry utility.

Eda is actually a..funny one for me. Might be a example of how WR can be good even with a bad character.

I made a self-challenge of not using Dean because I'm not a big fan of him, so I decided to train her. For my surprise, she ended up capping almost every single of her stats without massive scroll abuse before promoting (If I remember correct, I used some ''general'' ones until she capped Speed and then worked on her Defense) (of course this ain't a hard thing when the game gives you a 20 stat cap..). Sure, she still way less optimal than her brother (especially for utility outside of battle), but it was worthy enough...She DID get a +2 mov. Don't ask how.

Also, don't try this. Just use Dean for god's sake. He trades her speed for a better stat on everything. 

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Generally speaking, wyvern riders are almost always good.  Hell, mounted classes in general are usually pretty good, especially in games with canto.  They never really sacrifice enough to warrant you using other units; only games that balanced them well were Mystery of the Emblem and Thracia 776 with forced dismounting so that they wouldn't be stupidly powerful all the time - the latter even gave you a legitimate reason to be swapping units around so that you wouldn't just use the same team map after map.

33 minutes ago, Jayvee94 said:

Ma'am if there's a PVP in this game, I would fill my army with Archers and Mages.

Prepare for every team to have that one sniper or bow knight who's specifically there to destroy your archers and mages.

Oh, and a healbot Holy Knight/Gremory who spams Physic and Fortify all the damn time like they're in frickin' Mystery of the Emblem.  No PvP team in a potential FE:3H multiplayer mode would be complete without a Mercedes or Flayn.

Edited by Ertrick36

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1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Pretty much.

I'd say the class is too fast. I understand why it'd be faster than Knight/General, but WRs sacrifice too little in Str/Def for that extra Spd and delicious mobility. Or, more enemy Bows are needed, or, Knights need stat buffs to push them notably ahead of WRs.

Neutral terrain like plains now give 10% def,res and avoid, defensive terrain like forests 20% def, res and avoid, very defensive terrain like mountain give 30%. Now pegasus knights are the frailest class, wyvern riders durability is average, armors are actually difficult to kill and berserkers have a solid niche. There are SRPG from the 90s that have this kind of terrains.

I am convinced that intsys want certain class to be better than others because they are clearly not attempting nerfs between games.

Edited by Flere210

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I guess only fairly recently coming to fire emblem starting with awakening, and FE8 ROM colored my perception a bit.

Granted, Cormag, and Tana were great. I generally found wyvern riders passably good, and generally slower on average (especially in fates where wyvern lords were fashioned as flying generals).

Here in 3 houses, they're among the fastest classes in the game at swordmaster-tier, only being generally out-sped by assassins, can be rid of their bow weakness at the cost of -2 str/speed, with canto on top. Having none of these features for the past 3 fire emblem games for this class is... like they suddenly became gods.

But as I've said before, the stat bonuses on the classes made me pretty much ignore Edelguard's personal classes in favor of wyvern riding for hyper-mobility, and the option of double-ing, one-shotting, or just leaving the area.

Edited by maninbluejumpsuit

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If they were genuine about fixing the flying unit dominance, they'd start by getting rid of the trollish mechanics like saving idiot green units and not being able to open chests post-battle. I've been using a variety of classes, but I think I'm in the process of pivoting to a team that may contain as many as five wyvern riders in the midgame.

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1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Pretty much.

I'd say the class is too fast. I understand why it'd be faster than Knight/General, but WRs sacrifice too little in Str/Def for that extra Spd and delicious mobility. Or, more enemy Bows are needed, or, Knights need stat buffs to push them notably ahead of WRs.

The only games where I would call WRs bad would be FE3B1, where dismounting hurts their stats and the two good fliers of Palla and Catria come much too late to be useful. They'd be good in FE4, but Altena shows up too late with magic everywhere in sight for much of her limited existence. Later FE12 on the harder difficulties b/c low Spd cap. And Awakening, where they can have their uses, but it's better to just have them ferry a grounded ally in Pair Up and then swap to them for handling a massive enemy phase.

Yet, of all WRs, the only one I'd call downright bad is Eda. Who lacks her brother's bases, his Con, his Sword Rank, his Movement Stars, his Critical Coefficient, and can't use his Dragonpike. All whilst having the same availability, and suffering the same massive -3 Str, -2 Skl/Spd, and -5 Def caused by dismounting when indoors. And even then, Eda is only your third (and last if you pick Shannam route) flier in FE5, so she still has some visiting/ferry utility.

 

I'd argue Altenna is worse, but then again theres one guy who is clear cut the very worst Wyvern Rider in the series bar none

 

Gerome

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43 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

I'd argue Altenna is worse, but then again theres one guy who is clear cut the very worst Wyvern Rider in the series bar none

Fair point on Altena. Eda can at least ferry/visit, and she become as practically good a combat unit almost any other.

Altena can't do anything to fix her measly maybe 2 base Res, which is her big problem. Even with the Cairpre +5 Res boost, and a Barrier Ring, she can't do anything about the 10/F status staffs. Maybe, if she got the Barrier Sword (Safeguard as FEH calls it), she could reach enough Res to negate the status shutdown, but I forget how much Mag all those Loptian Mages have, it might have been 16 Mag, which Altena just barely if all goes well could avoid.

But that would require leaving Silvia unwed. And even if you went and got that, other units like Leif and Fee could possibly pull of the same Barrier Ring + Safeguard combo. 

If we didn't throw her that +12 Res, then she takes a hit against the Barons of Freege, one of the few groups of enemies she can fight without being under the Loptian status radar. And, the other concurrent group at that moment is the Beigeritter, which is problematic for her because they pack bows and she has no way of mitigating her weakness.

And, Gae Bolg is heavy, with its physical tankiness going to waste with so little for Altena to use it against outside of the Arena.

 

43 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Gerome

I never actually recruited Batman. So I haven't the foggiest how he handles. But probably bleh ingame sans grind, awesome for min-maxing the optional content, like any other kid.

 

2 hours ago, BergelomeuSantos said:

Also, don't try this. Just use Dean for god's sake. He trades her speed for a better stat on everything. 

Eda could cultivate a Mag stat though. You'll already have the +30% of Heim by that point. And the +10s of Fjalar and Ced. She could reach 50% Mag growth with just Heim alone. Her 3 Mag base is 1 higher than Deen's, and she is underleveled, so she could be a rare physical unit that won't fall victim to status and can blick magical attacks.

Bbbbbbuttt, this means absolutely nothing against the endgame love of Hel. The lone best counter to Hel being Wrath + Linoan, or a Sara you ran through the Arena enough to get 50 Light WEXP so she can use swipe the Nosferatu once promoted.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Fair point on Altena. Eda can at least ferry/visit, and she become as practically good a combat unit almost any other.

Altena can't do anything to fix her measly maybe 2 base Res, which is her big problem. Even with the Cairpre +5 Res boost, and a Barrier Ring, she can't do anything about the 10/F status staffs. Maybe, if she got the Barrier Sword (Safeguard as FEH calls it), she could reach enough Res to negate the status shutdown, but I forget how much Mag all those Loptian Mages have, it might have been 16 Mag, which Altena just barely if all goes well could avoid.

But that would require leaving Silvia unwed. And even if you went and got that, other units like Leif and Fee could possibly pull of the same Barrier Ring + Safeguard combo. 

If we didn't throw her that +12 Res, then she takes a hit against the Barons of Freege, one of the few groups of enemies she can fight without being under the Loptian status radar. And, the other concurrent group at that moment is the Beigeritter, which is problematic for her because they pack bows and she has no way of mitigating her weakness.

And, Gae Bolg is heavy, with its physical tankiness going to waste with so little for Altena to use it against outside of the Arena.

 

I never actually recruited Batman. So I haven't the foggiest how he handles. But probably bleh ingame sans grind, awesome for min-maxing the optional content, like any other kid.

  

Eda could cultivate a Mag stat though. You'll already have the +30% of Heim by that point. And the +10s of Fjalar and Ced. She could reach 50% Mag growth with just Heim alone. Her 3 Mag base is 1 higher than Deen's, and she is underleveled, so she could be a rare physical unit that won't fall victim to status and can blick magical attacks.

Bbbbbbuttt, this means absolutely nothing against the endgame love of Hel. The lone best counter to Hel being Wrath + Linoan, or a Sara you ran through the Arena enough to get 50 Light WEXP so she can use swipe the Nosferatu once promoted.

 

Really the whole part about Dean and Eda is both are good and you only have 3 flier for a long time so better use them all. Stats is the easiest thing to fix in Thracia after all(kinda). Enemy isnt too strong + Scrolls.

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Whenever a unit of mine falls, it's usually to a Pegasus Knight or a Wyvern Rider. I think that speaks volumes. Also, Seteth is pretty tough as one

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4 hours ago, Humanoid said:

If they were genuine about fixing the flying unit dominance, they'd start by getting rid of the trollish mechanics like saving idiot green units and not being able to open chests post-battle. I've been using a variety of classes, but I think I'm in the process of pivoting to a team that may contain as many as five wyvern riders in the midgame.

The only genuine restriction on a first playthrough is battalions and adjutants. Which is something, for sure, but clearly not enough, and it's not like most units will get an adjutant anyway. Flier battalions aren't even bad, you just don't get that many.

It's really unfortunate too, because for once they put enough terrain for cavalry not to be completely overpowered(I mean, it still is, because canto and dismounting, but baby steps). But then they made fliers way too good. It's not like most of the previous games where they were regular combat units with flight, it's worse, because they're also the best at combat, and Bandit(aka Death blow) -> Wyvern rider is a very smooth transition, while pegs get Darting blow. Archers could have been an issue, but not with canto/MA.

So yes, those classes are way too good in this game.

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Making him a Wyvern Rider was enough to turn Sylvain from one of the worst units on the Blue Lions into one of the best. Hilda was also 100% more useful than as a Warrior once I put her on one of these. Seteth is a beast the moment you get him and he starts out as one.
So... yeah, I'd say the class is pretty freaking good.

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Are Wyvern Lords better than Falcon Knights?  The only difference I saw between them was the magic defense and female requirement for Falcon Knights (playing on Normal difficulty.

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1 hour ago, Dalquist said:

Are Wyvern Lords better than Falcon Knights?  The only difference I saw between them was the magic defense and female requirement for Falcon Knights (playing on Normal difficulty.

Falcon Knights are also really good. Wyvern Lords are just a little better. Wyverns give 3 strength and 3 defence more in terms of major stats, in exchange for just 1 speed. Falcon Knight has better dex and res, but those tend to be less valuable stats. Overall it isn't a big gap between them, so for females I would recommend just going for whichever is easier in terms of weapon ranks.

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2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

I am speachless at the tought that a unit with pursuit, a mount, and a legendary weapon can be bad in genealogy 

Altena, or practically any WR if they existed on the playable side, would be very good -if they came before Chapter 10. With the additional exceptions of northern Silesse and maybe Phinora in Gen 1 (but Erinys can either or slay the desert Meteors or safely poke a Freege to flip Ida), low Res doesn't mean much. But with 100% accurate as long as user Mag > target Res and infinite use enemy status staffs Altena finds herself facing issues.

Pursuit only matters if you aren't asleep, a mount only matters if you aren't asleep, a legendary weapon only matters if you aren't asleep or it could keep you from falling asleep. And Pursuit, a mount, and a legendary weapon are better if you can take a lot of hits, which Altena can't exactly do when it comes to magic. Assuming the class minimum of 7 Mag, with her base Res and the Caipre boost, she is taking 20 a hit from the Freege Barons, so a 4HKO since she will breach 60 HP when trained. Not terrible actually but still far less than her physical prowess.

This isn't to say Altena can't contribute, she can help fight Arion's three-headed dragon assault in C9 (but not Arion himself). She can kill someone in the turn 1 strike of Chapter 10, she can help like Fee in saving villages and Palmark in the same chapter, or she can go after that Paladin miniboss's moving forces. But heading north toward Miletos Castle IIRC is very slow and dangerous if at all possible for anyone with low Res, which is 90% of allies. The same issue comes with Edda in Final, Freege is better tackled with dodgetanks I think, and Dozel is laughably easy, if one of the few times Altena can do a lot of the kind of fighting she and the Gae Bolg are made for outside of the Arena. Then once Freege falls, maybe she'll get in a turn or two against Ishtar's Weissritter, but then she has to be Returned to Chalphy to flip Arion, which leaves her with only a little time to possibly slay some Deadlords, if it is safe to put her in Julius's Meteor range.

Altena isn't terrible, again, most of the 2nd Gen barring Seliph, Ares, Julia (not that she is around for any of it other than Julius), Claud's kids, and maybe some other units at the margins when given a Barrier Ring and maybe the Safeguard, lack for the Res needed to overcome certain late/endgame enemy groups. This hinders the performance of in practice we'll say 3/4s of your 24 person army. The difference, is that most of them joined far earlier than Altena and therefore had more time to contribute meaningfully. And, this is specifically a discussion on Wyvern Riders and only Altena is one of them. Altena is restrained, on paper excellent, but in practice she is shackled. If Gae Bolg gave +10 Res instead of +10 Skl or Def, then she'd be liberated.

 

To consider a hypothetical Gen 1 Dracoknight, let's pretend they joined at the exact same time as Erinys, armed with any ordinary lance (I'd pick Steel). Let's pretend they had no skills, and the following bases:

Level 6 HP 37 Str 15 Skl 11 Spd 8 Lck 7 Def 17 Res 0

Those bases were based on Erinys's, using her base level, and deducting the Pegasus Knight's class bases from her bases. Which equal -3 HP, +4 Str, +1 Mag, +5 Skl, +6 Spd, +7 Lck, +2 Def, and +2 Res. I then flipped the HP and Res, Str and Skl, and Spd and Def "Erinys additions above/below class bases" values for this hypothetical Dracoknight, to make the stats a little more in line with what I'd consider the spirit of the class. Maybe that Def value is too high, but hey, they're joining after half of the 1st Gen is effectively over, they need good bases or utility.

For growths, how about Erinys's terrible ones?:

HP 60 Str 30 Mag 5 Skl 20 Spd 20 Lck 20 Def 30 Res 5

The only changes I made to them for this DK was swapping Str and Spd, and halving Mag and Res to give +10% to HP.

With all this, I think we'd have a decent unit. No Pursuit and really bad Spd even after promotion with Pursuit obtained would be bad. And Erinys would always have the stronger offense with due to natural doubling enabling quadding with the Brave Lance. But, given Gen 1 only has Erinys for a flier, a second one would be far away from redundant. And if you threw them a Brave Sword/Lance, they'd be close to a second Lex.

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Yeah... they are. It’s like Fates again, if that can be agreeable. Or Radiant Dawn.

I was one of those people who went the WL route with Leonie when I did GD. Arguably one of the best units on the team.

I’d probably recruit Petra to other houses more often in the future if the work to make her a WL wasn’t so insurmountable. I think she joins as a Thief instead. Oof.

Spoiler

Seems like Brigid and I will be mortal enemies, since I’ll be killing her again and again whenever I play Blue Lions and Golden Deer.

 

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Fliers being too strong is nothing new, but why on earth did wyvern lord get a huge speed base/mod (some of the best in the game) and innate Avoid+10? Top it off with the availability of the Aurora Shield (which is a respectable equip even before it nulls flying weaknesses), and the class line is back to RD level of feeling clearly better than the competition.

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10 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Fliers being too strong is nothing new, but why on earth did wyvern lord get a huge speed base/mod (some of the best in the game) and innate Avoid+10? Top it off with the availability of the Aurora Shield (which is a respectable equip even before it nulls flying weaknesses), and the class line is back to RD level of feeling clearly better than the competition.

I hope this is part of why lunatic is coming out later. Incentives for online play to gather data on how people are playing and what would make the game hard. I wouldn't be surprised if enemies started showing up with more effective weapons and range to combat fliers. That being said, it'll probably still just be "warp your over leveled WL to the boss with stride/rallies/dance".

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Flying units can also wield bows, if the unit had proficiency beforehand.  Deadeye + few terrain restrictions + canto wrecked later maps.

Someone PLEASE talk me out of doing this with Ignatz.

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