Someone explain this plot point involving Rhea. (Major spoilers, obviously)

[redlight]

If you ask me Rhea chose to establish some kind of order instead of allowing chaos to run rampant. Also, crest bearers probably would've bickered among themselves with the common folk caught in between if left to their own devises without any kind of supervision.

I think a class system would've been inevitable with crests even without Rhea. Powerful people establish fortune and reputation for their descendants to reap the benefits. The 10 Elites were massive powerhouses who had no problem passing on their gifts. The "immoral choices" that she could've done was either exterminate them to prevent future conflicts or leave them to their own devices to see how maddening an establishment built on the extermination of a species would turn out to be. While I do think there were flaws in the order she created, it was better than the alternatives and I do think some things were out of her control when it came to certain things about how people viewed history. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by redlight

[eclipse]

"Hey, there's spoilers, so let's put it in the title".  Hence why your title was edited.

As for the why. . .I'm gonna play through all the routes and see if I can piece things together.  Just finished Black Eagles, and I have more questions than anything.

[RoyOurBoy]

Rhea and Edelgard can be evil, but they are really just deliciously grey moral characters. They are both huge authoritarians and will snuff out anyone who gets in their way.

In Rhea’s case though, she was almost a child just longing for her mother, her mother was everything to her. This blinded her and she didn’t care about others, in fact they became playthings to her. She executed people without a trial, she performed human experiments (no better than those who performed experiments on Edelgard one could argue), and oppressed mankind as a means to an end. Yet I can’t hate her, because for those close to her, I believe she truly cares. No matter how ruthless or cruel a ruler is, there is always a little bit of good in them. 

That being said, I would be more inclined to side with Edelgard over Rhea. While Edelgard can be just as authoritarian as Rhea, she has seen the horrors of being oppressed and I don’t think she would unduly oppress her innocent citizens. She instead eliminates the nobility and institutes a meritocracy, a huge step towards making the world better. She’s not perfect by any means, I have a lot of things I don’t like about her. Again though, between the two, I think she has the edge.

next is the Blue Lions for me, I wonder if my perspective will change. Will be fun to find out!

[Timlugia]

I don’t think the “human experiment” were the same.

From reading Jeralt’s diary and Rhea’s confessions. It seems to me the twelve clones were well treated, they were unaware their origins and lived out their lives as mortals. They were not confined or tortured, could free roam even outside Monastery(as Jeralt bringing his wife to various activities).

 

Rhea seems not concern about them at all since she let them to marry other people.

 

on the same topic, it’s pretty clear to me that Byleth was an accident, and Rhea wasn’t sure what to do with him. She wanted an exact copy of Sothis, not a human dragon hybrid. She also doesn’t know how would Sothis interact with Byleth, obviously she was hoping Sothis would take over him. (And would come to term that fused Byleth is a New Sothis with both soul rather than original one, in all none Edelgard ending)

[MrPerson0]

19 hours ago, Cadros said:

From the get-go you know Jeralt doesn't fully trust Rhea,

He didn't trust Rhea because he didn't want to accept the fact that his wife would give up her life for their child. From what I recall, after the Remire village incident, he starts wondering if they should have left the church at all.

 

19 hours ago, Cadros said:

There's a difference between retaliation and genocide. She offers them no alternative punishment except death, and does so right in front of a person that barely knows her. I'm not saying it's not likely that others would respond similarly, but the manner in which Rhea presents herself in regards to the Western Church is quite scary to see from someone with so much power and expected to be a holy authority.

Why do people keep on expecting a judicial system in a Fire Emblem game, where they have always been based on medieval times that ignored such a thing? Remember how Chrom's police and the Feroxians had free reign to kill any bandits out there? The fact of the matter is, the moment they confront Western Church members, the Western Church members are out to kill.

Also, people seem to forget that the Fodlans needed the powers of the crests to (barely) beat the invading Almyrans in a battle a while back (year 960 or so). It's safe to say that without the crests, Fodlan would have been overrun. Outside of that, the fault of the current crest system falls on the nobles, who will always find some way to discriminate/have more power over others.

[Timlugia]

1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

 

Also, people seem to forget that the Fodlans needed the powers of the crests to (barely) beat the invading Almyrans in a battle a while back (year 960 or so). It's safe to say that without the crests, Fodlan would have been overrun. Outside of that, the fault of the current crest system falls on the nobles, who will always find some way to discriminate/have more power over others.

I always wonder what would happen if Claude/his father launches an invasion as retribution in Edelgard’s ending? Without power of Crest and most great leaders were now dead, and empire is fighting TWISTD it seems that Almyrans/Dagdar could easily overrun the empire.

 

————

Another trivia about Rhea: it’s either an overlooked inconsistent mistake or her clothes were magical. But Rhea wore different clothes before and after final battle with her in church path: she had plain robe pre-battle, but had full archbishop dress when Byleth caught her drifting mid air. 

[omegaxis1]

 

 

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10 hours ago, redlight said:

If you ask me Rhea chose to establish some kind of order instead of allowing chaos to run rampant. Also, crest bearers probably would've bickered among themselves with the common folk caught in between if left to their own devises without any kind of supervision.

I think a class system would've been inevitable with crests even without Rhea. Powerful people establish fortune and reputation for their descendants to reap the benefits. The 10 Elites were massive powerhouses who had no problem passing on their gifts. The "immoral choices" that she could've done was either exterminate them to prevent future conflicts or leave them to their own devices to see how maddening an establishment built on the extermination of a species would turn out to be. While I do think there were flaws in the order she created, it was better than the alternatives and I do think some things were out of her control when it came to certain things about how people viewed history. 

To be fair, she is justified in being able to kill them, since they committed a great crime, given how they attained their Crests and even the Relics. 

Furthermore, Rhea is basically the overseer of the system. Not to mention, despite the Crests being powerful, it wasn't as if it made them completely invincible. Crests give one an advantage but don't make one automatically superior to another person, as we play various characters without Crests. But with the Crest System, those with Crests are automatically seen as superior by default.

[goodperson707]

8 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Why do people keep on expecting a judicial system in a Fire Emblem game, where they have always been based on medieval times that ignored such a thing? Remember how Chrom's police and the Feroxians had free reign to kill any bandits out there? The fact of the matter is, the moment they confront Western Church members, the Western Church members are out to kill.

Also, people seem to forget that the Fodlans needed the powers of the crests to (barely) beat the invading Almyrans in a battle a while back (year 960 or so). It's safe to say that without the crests, Fodlan would have been overrun. Outside of that, the fault of the current crest system falls on the nobles, who will always find some way to discriminate/have more power over others.

Maybe because a judicial system does exist in Fire Emblem Three Houses? 

And they used the power of crests (among other things) that is different then needing them. 

[MrPerson0]

11 minutes ago, goodperson707 said:

Maybe because a judicial system does exist in Fire Emblem Three Houses? 

Something similar to due process that we have? If so, where?

12 minutes ago, goodperson707 said:

And they used the power of crests (among other things) that is different then needing them. 

They barely were able to beat the invading Almyrans with the crests. It's safe to say that without the crests, they would have been overrun, which is why the crests are needed.

[goodperson707]

1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

Something similar to due process that we have? If so, where?

They barely were able to beat the invading Almyrans with the crests. It's safe to say that without the crests, they would have been overrun, which is why the crests are needed.

Having a Judical system is a reason to expect a Judical system, you can argue the possible details of that system and the assumptions that could be made of it but the concept does exists here. 

If the state of Fodlan was exactly the same but without crests sure, I don't think that's safe to say at all though. 

[wissenschaft]

Are we forgetting that Rhea is a dragon. Are we going to pretend if we learned the real world was controlled by some alien being that we would be ok with that and just accept it? Yeah sure, leave the church as it is, under some crazy dragon that masquerades a human.

Edited August 18, 2019 by wissenschaft

[Crysta]

Depends on whether or not the alien could completely annihilate us. If it could, but it's benevolent, I might be willing to... not die.

Not sure if the church would have operated better under human guidance given our penchant for messing things up.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Crysta

[Timlugia]

2 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Are we forgetting that Rhea is a dragon. Are we going to pretend if we learned the real world was controlled by some alien being that we would be ok with that and just accept it? Yeah sure, leave the church as it is, under some crazy dragon that masquerades a human.

Thing is, Church of Seiros is a dragon worshipping religion to begin with. They have dragons literally on every depictions. With dragons being angel like divine messenger and guardians in the sky.  

 

It’s not going be that much shock for believers to believe their goddess is also a dragon.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Timlugia

[Eryon]

4 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Are we forgetting that Rhea is a dragon. Are we going to pretend if we learned the real world was controlled by some alien being that we would be ok with that and just accept it? Yeah sure, leave the church as it is, under some crazy dragon that masquerades a human.

If the modern world's accomplishments were pinned on that alien being ala Ancient Alien conspiracies then he'd have shown that she's a capable enough ruler. Most of human history has been men being ruled over by those of a different race/ethnicity from them. Even in "homogeneous" lands like Greece, one clan would rule over others in the area through claimed descent from a founder.

Or are you going to show me the English trying to kick out the foreign Norman invaders for an English king? What made the Egyptians accept being ruled by a foreign Macedonian ruling elite for hundreds years? How did the Roman Empire survive for so long? What stopped the Hungarians from fighting to separate themselves from the German Hapsburgs? Do the Russians not consider the German Catherine the Great to be one of the greatest of Russia’s rulers? Where did the Arab Empire come from?  How did the subjects of the Roman Empire agree to fight for Rome?

I must say, too much of Edelgard's supporters across the 'net come off as Humanity Fuck Yeah weirdos who complain about how the humans in James Cameron's Avatar wouldn't the "good" in that movie.

On 8/16/2019 at 10:46 PM, redlight said:

If you ask me Rhea chose to establish some kind of order instead of allowing chaos to run rampant. Also, crest bearers probably would've bickered among themselves with the common folk caught in between if left to their own devises without any kind of supervision.

I think a class system would've been inevitable with crests even without Rhea. Powerful people establish fortune and reputation for their descendants to reap the benefits. The 10 Elites were massive powerhouses who had no problem passing on their gifts. The "immoral choices" that she could've done was either exterminate them to prevent future conflicts or leave them to their own devices to see how maddening an establishment built on the extermination of a species would turn out to be. While I do think there were flaws in the order she created, it was better than the alternatives and I do think some things were out of her control when it came to certain things about how people viewed history. 

She just took the path of least resistance dealing with the humans so that she could both have some calm and focus on her mother. Frankly, Fodlan might've been spared of future rampages if Rhea just used one family as her royal lineage ala Loptyr as they took care of the crests and kept them out of human hands.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Eryon

[MrPerson0]

14 hours ago, goodperson707 said:

Having a Judical system is a reason to expect a Judical system, you can argue the possible details of that system and the assumptions that could be made of it but the concept does exists here.  

So, you don't have an actual example? Seeing that none of the previous Fire Emblem games had such a system in place, there is no reason for people to expect one here.

14 hours ago, goodperson707 said:

If the state of Fodlan was exactly the same but without crests sure, I don't think that's safe to say at all though. 

Seeing that Fodlan wasn't the country to truly technology advance in the beginning, it definitely is safe to say.

7 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Are we forgetting that Rhea is a dragon. Are we going to pretend if we learned the real world was controlled by some alien being that we would be ok with that and just accept it? Yeah sure, leave the church as it is, under some crazy dragon that masquerades a human.

So, just forget that Awakening, Gaiden/Echoes, Fates, etc. had people worshiping dragons? This art: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/5/57/Church_of_Seiros.png/revision/latest?cb=20190530095507

even depicts the goddess ruling over dragons.

[Eryon]

It wasn't the dragons who chose extermination over choosing to share the world. It was humans. Just as it was in Elibe.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Eryon

[omegaxis1]

Frankly, the biggest thing is that Rhea should have been entirely aware of how humans differ from one another, with there being good and evil humans. She also is very well aware that making the Crests be objects of worship, thus making humans with Crests to be tied to the divine lineage or blessed by the Goddess, it would make them hold political influence and power. 

No noble in her system has ever been able to truly wield any political power without Crests. 

Ingrid's Paralogue goes to show how desperate some nobles are willing to go to attain the Crest. First the noble tries to offer a large dowry, but after that, he tries instead to kidnap Ingrid and force her to marry him.

If Rhea is incapable of being aware or even understanding throughout the millennia what her system would cause and create, then she's a first class idiot.

[goodperson707]

6 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

So, you don't have an actual example? Seeing that none of the previous Fire Emblem games had such a system in place, there is no reason for people to expect one here.

Seeing that Fodlan wasn't the country to truly technology advance in the beginning, it definitely is safe to say.

Yes I have proof there's a Judical system in place in Fodlan more specifically the Empire. (House Herving is in charge of it though House Varley has been moving into that area with the decline of the church there) I was just more focused on reiterating my point in response to you moving the goalposts. (And your request for proof was tied into that) 

How does that counter my point that taking away crests from the equation and it being the exact same but with no crests is not a safe assumption? 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

No one has really mentioned it yet, but Edelgard blames the Church for supporting/facilitating  separatist movements, which ultimately led to the creation of Faerghus and the Alliance.  She also accuses the church of hoarding wealth from the faithful to live opulently.  At least these are the public reasons she gives for her war in her speech before the Imperial Army.  

 

Honestly surprised how how much people criticize some of Rhea’s actions.   For example, executing enemies who already tried to kill you should hardly be controversial (unless you are Corrin).  

 

Also, hereditary nobility emerging would happen with or without crests.  As would more ambitious/ruthless families trying to remove unworthy heirs.  Milan was a petty, ruthless, bully - even if he had a crest and was less insecure I doubt he would have been much better.  

 

The goddess being worshipped by the Church does exist. 

 

Yes, Rhea tried making clones to revive her mother.  When they didn’t work, she seems to have let them live out happy lives before trying again.  When one of these failed clones was basically having a miscarriage and was willing to sacrifice herself for the child, Rhea obliged and saved the baby, even though it meant she would have to wait until trying another clone.  

 

The church defends against bandits and other threats like TWSITD.  

 

Honestly thought Edelgard was a bit of a conspiracy theorist who wanted to dismantle her whole society.  My bigger question is how she got so much of the Empire to follow her.  When her father tried to curtail noble authority there was an insurrection.  When his daughter wanted to to declare war on the church and abolish nobility, they join in?  I understand that some of the more disloyal nobles were purged, but still.  

 

Like, wanting to reclaim/reunite the Empire  would honestly be a fair enough reason for war, but her anti-church crusade comes across as madness (let alone if you consider who she was willing to work with to make it possible).  

[Timlugia]

Quote

Honestly thought Edelgard was a bit of a conspiracy theorist who wanted to dismantle her whole society.  My bigger question is how she got so much of the Empire to follow her.  When her father tried to curtail noble authority there was an insurrection.  When his daughter wanted to to declare war on the church and abolish nobility, they join in?  I understand that some of the more disloyal nobles were purged, but still.  

In the similar vein, I also found her ending mentioning zero insurrection quite unrealistic. Same as how Almyra didn’t invade to avenge their prince.

 

Historically, every time when a ruler forced a different religious view on their subjects, some kind major insurrection would break out. Examples including Great Jewish War and Icine War during Roman Empire (both due to religious tax and desecrating local shrines); Spanish Reconqusedo where Spaniard overthrown Moorish monarchy; various Christian wars between Catholic and Protestant during 16-18 century. Some modern examples including Greek War of Independence, Irish Independence and current conflict in the Middle East.

 

From the description of Church of Seiros, it was certainly a majority religion in Fódlan, followed by all levels of social order, even among Imperial army. It’s quite hard to believe they all bought Edelgard’s view. 

 

And that’s only follower of Seiros, there must be quite a few Kingdom and Alliance loyalists out there looking to restore their sovereignty just like Duscar did.

 

The only reasonable explanation I came across so far was that ending text only covers Edelgard’s tenure. And she didn’t live very long after war, thus avoided major rebellions during her time.

 

 

[SHEmperor]

9 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

In the similar vein, I also found her ending mentioning zero insurrection quite unrealistic. Same as how Almyra didn’t invade to avenge their prince.

 

There's a choice to spare Claude in the BE route if you defeat him with Edelgard or Byleth and Almyra does do an invasion in a paralogue irregardless of whether you spare Claude or not.

[Crysta]

I think the plot is hamstrung into an unrealistic happily ever after and peace for all ending because you just spent the 50+ hours trying to win a war for your bae and not having a satisfying conclusion would leave a bad taste, but realistically the aftermath of such a power upheaval - in all three routes - would be more uncertain and chaotic than anything before it.

[MrPerson0]

2 hours ago, goodperson707 said:

Yes I have proof there's a Judical system in place in Fodlan more specifically the Empire. (House Herving is in charge of it though House Varley has been moving into that area with the decline of the church there) I was just more focused on reiterating my point in response to you moving the goalposts. (And your request for proof was tied into that)  

Was that really talked about in the BE path? Or something only mentioned through the texts in the library? If the latter, I can see why no one really brought it up in general, since what the Empire does has no bearing on the Church and vice versa (seeing that they haven't sent a lord to Garreg Mach in over 200 years). And when did I move goalposts? It's common sense that a judicial system is not normally in FE at all, especially when people asking for one need to realize that these people (Western Church, Edelgard, etc.) committed many atrocities and were out to kill anyway. The Flayn and Seteth paralogue really showed how far gone the Western Church truly are when they started exclaiming that they know how to worship Saint Cihol and Cethleann ...in front of those very two people, and were willing to kill if necessary.

3 hours ago, goodperson707 said:

How does that counter my point that taking away crests from the equation and it being the exact same but with no crests is not a safe assumption? 

 

Because if they didn't have the crests, Fodlan would have been overrun, and there would be no Edelgard, Dimitri, etc.

22 minutes ago, SHEmperor said:

Almyra does do an invasion in a paralogue irregardless of whether you spare Claude or not. 

Which paralogue? IIRC, the Alois and Shamir one takes place before the timeskip, and the Hilda and Cyril one can only be done on a non-Edelgard path.

[goodperson707]

I'll reiterate that having a Judical system in three houses is a reason to expect a Judical system in three houses, what that Judical system entails is beyond that one point thus moving the goalposts. (Also I'd say Judicial systems are more a part of FE than you'd think but this is a TH forum) 

If they didn't have crests why is the world the exact same? 

As for Almyra that is Edelgard's paralouge (also why did you bring up Alois and Shamir's paralouge? There is no indication of any actual Almyrans there let alone an invasion)  and I think Nader might have died when I played it. 

[SHEmperor]

31 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Was that really talked about in the BE path? Or something only mentioned through the texts in the library? If the latter, I can see why no one really brought it up in general, since what the Empire does has no bearing on the Church and vice versa (seeing that they haven't sent a lord to Garreg Mach in over 200 years). And when did I move goalposts? It's common sense that a judicial system is not normally in FE at all, especially when people asking for one need to realize that these people (Western Church, Edelgard, etc.) committed many atrocities and were out to kill anyway. The Flayn and Seteth paralogue really showed how far gone the Western Church truly are when they started exclaiming that they know how to worship Saint Cihol and Cethleann ...in front of those very two people, and were willing to kill if necessary.

 

Because if they didn't have the crests, Fodlan would have been overrun, and there would be no Edelgard, Dimitri, etc.

Which paralogue? IIRC, the Alois and Shamir one takes place before the timeskip, and the Hilda and Cyril one can only be done on a non-Edelgard path.

It's a Edelgard paralogue but it's mostly to ward off Almyran invasion.  You can assume that they invaded either to avenge Claude or Claude lives and he tries to take back the alliance using Almyran forces.

Or, you can just assume they tried to invade after the Alliance broke off. I like to think that considering this happens after defeating Claude and Claude's relations to Almyra that there's more context to this paralogue than it seems.

Edit: Also, rereading the paralogue, it explains why the Almyrans didn't try to invade any time soon afterward. They experienced many casualties in this fight and backed off for a good amount of time.

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by SHEmperor