What is presently the best House/Route? (And Why I think it's Blue Lions/Azure Moon)

[UNLEASH IT]

It is weird that no one other than Felix and his dad try to call Dimitri out on his rage

[0 Def Cleric]

6 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Does the trauma-induced psychosis play out realistically in the story, in your more learned opinion?

To an extent. I'd probably say that it definitely shouldn't disappear so swiftly, especially without people who are aware of dedicated coping mechanisms for it. When it is active, it's pretty realistic (as far as a video game goes); but since no one's really aware of the (somewhat counter-intuitive) ways to treat trauma in Fodlan, there's not really an excuse for it disappearing so fast.

It would have been a good deal more realistic if he displayed proper symptoms of PTSD (aka had periods of clarity) and was jarred out of it by Rodrigue; though he would definitely have an eventual relapse (probably when encountering one of his main triggers, such as Edelgard), he'd probably be able to work decently well for a time, although I think he should definitely have displayed more survivor's guilt post-Rodrigue. As it is, psychosis doesn't really tend to go away. It's just made to be less harmful (through cognitive behavioral therapy changing the associations with the hallucinations, and differentiating them from reality, or with the decidedly more modern solution of antipsychotic medication.) It's really not easy to separate what's in your head from reality, especially directly after another recent highly traumatic event!

As it is, PTSD has a tendency to cause erratic behavior, which could easily justify his rampages without the excuse of blaming it on others. (It especially is likely to lead to violent behavior in men, but obviously women can experience it too (thanks for the example, Edelgard.)) (Although the majority of people with PTSD, and even more so with psychosis, are nonviolent.) Overall, it would have been better writing to give him PTSD, because it both better justifies his rampages and better justifies him snapping out of it. Psychosis tends to cause fear rather than rage in the majority of cases. 

But hey, it's vidya gaem. 

[Crysta]

Yeah not sure how much I should expect a video game to deftly handle mental health issues even when it willingly wades into them, but I was genuinely curious about your take on it as a serious professional as opposed to just a gamer. Thanks. 🙂

[0 Def Cleric]

1 minute ago, Crysta said:

Yeah not sure how much I should expect a video game to deftly handle mental health issues even when it willingly wades into them, but I was genuinely curious about your take on it as a serious professional as opposed to just a gamer. Thanks. 🙂

Well, I'm not a licensed social worker yet thanks to being mired in the middle of my master's, but yeah. Edelgard is a genuinely good portrayal of PTSD though, with those trust issues. You just probably shouldn't be attempting to reform the entirety of the continent when you're not entirely rational and being manipulated by the people that caused your mental illness, lmao. 

[Boomhauer007]

Am I the only that thought Edelgard accepting the monster power was way out of character? Nothing about it made sense in the context of both the pre time skip and what we learn about her on the other routes or even this route. After the big discussion about their ideals it felt like a cheap way to reinforce to the player that the empire was the clear bad guys.

Also from a gameplay perspective Dimitri's inability to support was way too long. Like everybody, all of his supports are locked until the time skip but then his supports remain locked all the way until chapter 18. Given that 21 rolls into 22, you have all of three chapters to get support with him. While I very clearly understand it from a story perspective, it was really annoying from a gameplay perspective.

[Crysta]

10 minutes ago, Boomhauer007 said:

Am I the only that thought Edelgard accepting the monster power was way out of character? Nothing about it made sense in the context of both the pre time skip and what we learn about her on the other routes or even this route. After the big discussion about their ideals it felt like a cheap way to reinforce to the player that the empire was the clear bad guys.

No that was pretty weird, especially since she's driven to the same point in the GD route and doesn't decide to go full monster.

[UNLEASH IT]

18 minutes ago, Boomhauer007 said:

Am I the only that thought Edelgard accepting the monster power was way out of character? Nothing about it made sense in the context of both the pre time skip and what we learn about her on the other routes or even this route. After the big discussion about their ideals it felt like a cheap way to reinforce to the player that the empire was the clear bad guys.

Edelgard was the final boss in BL so they wanted her to feel like one. And I don't think it makes her look like a bad guy, it conveys to you now far she'll go to achieve her ambitions

[zuibangde]

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Yeah because the game doesn't really give you the option to not go along with his dumb, reckless plan to march straight to Enbarr... so you kind of know something else has to make him change course. He needs it if he wants to survive and not completely break story immersion. You're gonna die if you charge into the capital without any resources.

The game, and people, aren't generally interested in following murder hobo to the ends of the earth for very long.

Unless you're contending that he doesn't need that redemption for people to like him this much and consider him an engaging character. He certainly does. Not gonna treat him like a character meant to be a villain because he's so very clearly isn't, and go "well it's okay that he doesn't consider himself a good guy" when the narrative is very clearly leading you to "deep down he's meant to be a good guy."

His route isn't supposed to be Murder Hobo Adventures. If it was then my complaints would be very different.

Yes, I know he completely forgets about something he was really fixated about and a key part of his psychotic breakdown because the narrative is sort of just "well he's good and not bent on revenge any more so it doesn't matter", as if he needs to remain in that state of mind to be at all concerned or intellectually curious about it. Since it's the thing that sort of sets up his character arc in the first place, no, I can't say I find the entire character arc very good. You failed when you accepted the challenge, I guess, if that is the extent of your argument.

Same reason why Dimitri says he really wants to forgive her now after his redemption arc is complete, in spite of not even asking for the answers, apparently.

Not gonna highlight everything you wrote since it would make the post too long.

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t a redemption arc supposed to make an unlikable character likeable again and not to justify stupid actions? Maybe Dimitri’s unlikable to you but it’s clear from the writing that wasn’t the intention. Was his decision to go to Enbarr stupid? Yes. Is it also aligned with his character at the time? Yes. His decision to Enbarr reflects on his character flaw. Not every decision made by characters have to be justified and make sense (like what you’re trying to do with Dimitri but conveniently turn a blind eye towards Edelgard and Claude). The characters follow him to Enbarr because he’s the leader of the small army they have. Could they talk to him about it? Not really since he’s purposefully avoiding everyone at that point. So their choice is to either ditch Dimitri or support him (both in war and emotionally). I’d also like to point out that Faerghus students are pretty fixated on the ideas of honour and loyalty which is what Edelgard ‘violated’ hence they probably harbour negative feelings toward the Empire too. Pretty sure Mercedes justifies killing traitors of the church at some point in the game.

You can also ask the same question about Edelgard and friends. Do you really think characters like Caspar, who is all about justice would be okay with Edelgard invading the whole continent? The game shows that going to Enbarr was a mistake and moved on and there’s no reason to be  caught up on it. 

You’re also quite fixated on the idea that he NEEDS to have answers to complete his ‘redemption arc’ or ‘character growth’...which is completely missing the point of his story. He was plagued by not knowing the answers and details of the Tragedy of Duscur but by Rodrigue’s death, he realised his fixation in finding answers and revenge is causing more harm towards himself and people around him than solving anything. In the end, he finds solace in not knowing all the answers of the past and is satisfied in solving the current issue at hand (which is being betrayed by Edelgard who caused  a mess to the whole continent). 

From the comments of yours I’ve read, it seems that you’re set on the idea of what Dimitri’s story should be and criticising it for not being that and nothing we say can change your mind. 

[Crysta]

10 minutes ago, zuibangde said:

Not gonna highlight everything you wrote since it would make the post too long.

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t a redemption arc supposed to make an unlikable character likeable again and not to justify stupid actions?

If it's done well, sure. But I'm not actually complaining about him being justified, or even him being likeable. It's criticism of how the story handles his growth according to what it clearly aims to do, which is subpar. And I don't think it had to be subpar.

Clearly people disagree and are willing to accept the results the story gives you. But I don't think it's good writing and I still don't think I'm wrong, sorry.

EDIT: Also I'll happily go into detail about how, say, Ferninand joining up with Edelgard right after SHE RUINS HIS FAMILY is bad writing but that's more appropriate in an Edelgard thread. And I think that may be more of a strike against Ferdie's writing than hers, honestly. Caspar seems to follow the same illogical, inconsistent writing. That is definitely worth criticizing. What makes you think that's ridiculous to do?

Edited August 21, 2019 by Crysta

[zuibangde]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

If it's done well, sure. But I'm not actually complaining about him being justified, or even him being likeable. It's criticism of how the story handles his growth according to what it clearly aims to do, which is subpar. And I don't think it had to be subpar.

Clearly people disagree. But I still don't think I'm wrong, sorry.

Eh people have different expectations and interpretations from stories so I don’t think there’s really a right or wrong. I think the writing could be improved for Dimitri (same goes for other lords) but i also don’t think it’s as horrible as some people say it is. 

[Crysta]

6 minutes ago, zuibangde said:

I think the writing could be improved for Dimitri (same goes for other lords) but i also don’t think it’s as horrible as some people say it is. 

I'm just one person. I don't think anyone else has gone into quite as much detail as I have bothered to do to lampoon the writing, tbh.

[Holder of the Heel]

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

Sure I'd like it if they gave him a fully-fleshed character arc, too, because I find the character interesting and I'd have more material to work with in regards to my "Claude > Dimitri in character depth" argument. The game does give you mileage on what little he does give you but I suspect people don't really notice, while with Dimitri they his character hyper focus and don't deliver nearly as much as they should with the extra time it's given. He changes in the space of a couple chapters, after five years of staying in the same headspace, and it's treated as exceptional character growth.

But if you actually take out Dimitri's psychotic break and redemption arc, the overarching story doesn't change much, either. If you leave in the psychotic break but take away the redemption arc, it merely changes when and how he dies in the other routes. His arc isn't this huge transformative thing in anything but his own route, and it's not done well in his own route.

You can argue that the lack of a on-screen transformative arc at all in Claude's route makes him a less deep character than Dimitri, I guess, but I don't think you need to transform if you're very unlikely to go through an entitled and mentally unhinged murder hobo phase to begin with. The complaint that he clearly doesn't "need" Byleth as an emotional crutch so it doesn't feel like he and Byleth have as deep of a bond is a legitimate one but makes sense for him, because it's clear from his background that he's been conditioned to sort out his own messes from a very young age (his parents told him to "fight his own battles"). 

I would like more Almyrans and Spartan wyvern culture, but great emphasis on them would be strange in a political conflict very focused on Fodlan. Not surprised that they're not given more spotlight.

Agreed. But just because it makes sense that his story isn't in the actual story, doesn't change the fact that his story isn't in the actual story. It's as if this is a spin-off from another game where he's the lead in and this covers stuff he did during a time skip lol. I'd like to play that game, sounds fun, but it isn't Three Houses.

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

But a guy who is given plenty of spotlight and room for development and still flops, while being very relevant to the conflict at hand? A worse travesty, imo. It's like you give Claude a few yards and tsk at what little the story does with him, but you give Dimitri the entire football field and shrug at the fact that the writing stumbles the entire way and he kind of just tumbles into the endzone.

You speak as if I think Dimitri's story flopped, but if that was the case we wouldn't be in this dance of symbols trying to rationalize the enjoyment we've already had that cannot change no matter what the other says.

I had a stronger response to something that is there over something that isn't. How else may I excuse myself? Hunting down Thales and Nemesis should have been moved over to Crimson Flower and maybe we could've seen something else concerning his true goals at the end. It's not like encountering Slytherin in Three Houses is treated as final in the little epilogue notes anyways, so it really wasn't needed for Verdant Winds.

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

The "Edelgard is dumb" hill really, really isn't one I'd double down on especially given all the much better hills she gives you to die on. I'm working with limited information and I'm still confident it just isn't true with what little I have. She does adjust her plans to better adapt and try to get the most out of it, which does usually require reflection. The game really doesn't need to spell it out for me to lead me to that conclusion and I'm glad it doesn't insult my intellect in such a way.

So if a person reads into things not being followed up on with Dimitri, that's actually just bad writing, but if we don't treat Edelgard as an independently living entity that goes off and squashes her in-game stated plans to do something else when she returns in-game, our intellect just isn't up to snuff? Should I reverse the posed question and ask why one gets a pass and not another?

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

Same reason why Dimitri says he really wants to forgive her now after his redemption arc is complete, in spite of not even asking for the answers, apparently.

He claims that revenge was never his own but his delusion of what the dead want, like if you were doing something for very long time out of guilt, and when that burden is taken off he is now trying to do what lies beneath, even if he isn't sure what that is. He compared it to an obligation, and he compares it to how people mourn the dead and bury them when Felix criticizes him. Since he wants to find something that he believes in for himself, it's a matter of course that he isn't following up on something built on the aforementioned guilt he is trying to get past. Recall that conversation with Byleth about telling him to live for what he believes in? You might not be happy with this as why he wants to move past that motivation, but it's the story's steps of logic that are definitely there to follow. Personally I like it, shocking no one.

Interestingly Edelgard could be said to be similar. Her actions are born out of a desire to create a world where those that died in the sacrifices/experiments that made her what she is aren't in vain. So she's in a way acting on behalf of the dead that haunt her in her dreams the way their faces/voices haunt Dimitri while awake.

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

I'm not sure she actually thinks she has a good chance to convince Byleth to help her, only the chance may be potentially there if they get to know each other better, however small it may be,

Is she wanting to get to know each other better or is she afraid of that risk? It can't be both.

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

though I'm basing that suspicion simply on the reaction she gives when you first reject her as Flame Emperor on another route ("Unfortunate, but not unexpected").

You leave out the part, "I hope you don't live long enough to regret your decision." Kinda shows that after her masterful attempt at avoiding conflict, she has, with great hesitance, made the call that Byleth can go jump off a cliff.

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

Does she just not explain everything and go along with it after Byleth commits? Because that would strike me as outright bad writing. Not that she's shifty af and doesn't give Byleth a crayon drawing of everything she intends to do before that decision. Giving that info to a potential enemy is a very bad idea.

Well dang I didn't say everything. But to be given an opportunity to undermine Slither-people and the Church and she decides to turn it down entirely... she may as well have not shown up. Not all seeds of that could have been planted would blow up in her face. And we know that she is certainly willing to take risks that do in fact blow up in her face. Anything to make her confrontation in the Holy Tomb go smoother. How can she earnestly say to Byleth's face that she didn't want to really kill him/her after her arrival there and their "conversation" in Remire Village and expect to be believed?

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

Dimitri's "problem" very easily could have resulted in the deaths of his friends and his countrymen. In the GD route, without Byleth there, that's exactly what happens. Pre-redemption arc Dimitri is far more dangerous than peopldoubte are giving him credit for and part of that may have to do with the game having the characters around him just sort of uncomfortably going along with him and expressing their misgivings in private over confronting him about it. Felix is the only one who seems to point out what it's going to inevitably lead to if he doesn't get that juicy redemption arc soon.

I'm not quite sure how else to say this, but clearly there is a difference when someone's problem involves literally measuring the value of other people's lives, and someone's problem that could inadvertently cause him to react blindly, allowing people to suffer if they're in a war that does not yet exist and he does not start. One is as personal as you can get with concerning the life and death of others, and with the other you're having to reach into showing that they can indirectly cause harm if the other causes problems with their problem and a war happens and the one that starts the war is connected to the ones that caused his problem and--well, I hope my point is clear and this is not a case of two identical situations.

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

This doesn't happen. Or at least not as soon as it should.

There is no option for you to appropriately scold him. The most you do is tell him he's wrong when he insists ThAt We'Re ThE SaMe We'Re BoTh MoNsTeRs CuZ YoU aVeNgEd YoUr DaD and expressing you miss the old Dimitri, and he brushes both of those choices off. You're not allowed to have a full fledged argument with him. Felix gets the closest to scolding him and spelling it out, but dad is right there to tell him to STFU. Rodrigue himself attempts very gentle pushback when you first meet him, but he later approaches you and frets about how he lacks the conviction to outright tell Dimitri he's wrong. It is pointed out that freeing the kingdom capital from Imperial rule would be the smarter, more responsible thing to do but Dimitri isn't interested and no one challenges him. You go on your merry path, to the Hasty Important Plot Death that FINALLY breaks through in spite of how illogically it's set up.

The narrative doesn't paint his murderous phase in a positive light at all, but he certainly does get a pass by everyone until Rodrigue's death. A glaringly obvious one at that.

So you agree that it happens, you just don't like it. We may feel differently, but ultimately this makes my point. You're definitely leaving out multiple exchanges, but it doesn't matter that you do because the conclusion we reach is still the same. Dimitri never gets a pass for his poor behavior. And whether he does get a pass or not, he ultimately changes. You don't like that either, but it happens. In the topic of me giving passes to different characters, your gripes are irrelevant. Do you see what I am trying to say?

[Crysta]

54 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

You speak as if I think Dimitri's story flopped, but if that was the case we wouldn't be in this dance of symbols trying to rationalize the enjoyment we've already had that cannot change no matter what the other says.

Merely debating it doesn't mean it's accomplished it's goal lol

I'm not trying to actually convince you not to enjoy the things you clearly enjoy. I just don't agree with the premise of BL > better than the others because it's complex character writing, because I don't believe it has it, and I've been trying to provide explanations on why. I'm supplanting my argument. And yes, it is typically difficult to change the mind of someone who has thought it through, but you're free to just consider it hopeless and not try. But this is a stance you opened the thread with, and I didn't get the impression you were closed to it being challenged, so I'm here challenging it.

54 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Hunting down Thales and Nemesis should have been moved over to Crimson Flower and maybe we could've seen something else concerning his true goals at the end. It's not like encountering Slytherin in Three Houses is treated as final in the little epilogue notes anyways, so it really wasn't needed for Verdant Winds.

Eh, I don't think it's misplaced in Verdant Wind just because of Claude's well-documented wonderlust, but I do agree his connection to them is far, far less and it's weird that he's the only one who confronts them on screen.

There's plenty of criticism you can level at Verdant Wind, but clumsy writing actually isn't one of them. Thorough writing, maybe, but I think it does what little it bothers with fairly well. And that's a problem for Dimitri's route, too. When you're investing time in a heavy character arc like his you should probably not half-ass it.

54 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

So if a person reads into things not being followed up on with Dimitri, that's actually just bad writing, but if we don't treat Edelgard as an independently living entity that goes off and squashes her in-game stated plans to do something else when she returns in-game, our intellect just isn't up to snuff? Should I reverse the posed question and ask why one gets a pass and not another?

You can judge what doesn't actually happen in the game however you'd like. Edelgard does not ping my annoyance as much because I can understand why she wouldn't be super forthcoming with her plans with what the writing has established so far, even if I can't actually see it for myself and be 100% certain, while I don't really have that with Dimitri.

54 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

He claims that revenge was never his own but his delusion of what the dead want, like if you were doing something for very long time out of guilt, and when that burden is taken off he is now trying to do what lies beneath, even if he isn't sure what that is. He compared it to an obligation, and he compares it to how people mourn the dead and bury them when Felix criticizes him. Since he wants to find something that he believes in for himself, it's a matter of course that he isn't following up on something built on the aforementioned guilt he is trying to get past. Recall that conversation with Byleth about telling him to live for what he believes in? You might not be happy with this as why he wants to move past that motivation, but it's the story's steps of logic that are definitely there to follow. Personally I like it, shocking no one.

He's adamant about avenging the dead and he concludes murdering Edelgard would do that, yes. It is his reason for continuing to live when he thinks he deserved to die. I get what they're trying to do with him.

I understand Rodrigue dying finally makes him realize that murdering her won't actually bring him or anyone else inner peace and he needs to find his own life mission and whatever, but he then expresses a desire to reach out to Edelgard again and she is still associating with the people responsible for his trauma. He actually never fully understands why nor cares to ask after he's snapped out of it. It's something that has had a considerable effect on the both of them and their relationship, even if it's no longer plaguing him like it used to. I think the questions really should if he's sincerely seeking answers for her behavior in that conversation, much in the same way Cornelia's revelation bothers him, but the story sort of just sticks a toothpick in it and leaves it at that.

I'm expecting another step, you're content with what's there, essentially.

54 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

So you agree that it happens, you just don't like it. We may feel differently, but ultimately this makes my point. You're definitely leaving out multiple exchanges, but it doesn't matter that you do because the conclusion we reach is still the same. Dimitri never gets a pass for his poor behavior. And whether he does get a pass or not, he ultimately changes. You don't like that either, but it happens. In the topic of me giving passes to different characters, your gripes are irrelevant. Do you see what I am trying to say?

Give me examples of what I'm missing, then. I could be forgetting conversations but it wasn't that long ago that I was at that point in the story. It is quite a stretch to suggest that Dimitri is actively condemned for his crappy behavior with the extremely mild and ineffectual way you're allowed to voice your opposition to a guy who is gleefully looking forward to murder, and you all still just uncomfortably go along with it after he predictably brushes it off.

"But you're given one or two dialogue options voicing your concern!" doesn't really cut it.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Crysta

[Holder of the Heel]

10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Merely debating it doesn't mean it's accomplished it's goal lol

I'm not trying to actually convince you not to enjoy the things you clearly enjoy. I just don't agree with the premise of BL > better than the others because it's complex character writing, because I don't believe it has it, and I've been trying to provide explanations on why. I'm supplanting my argument. And yes, it is typically difficult to change the mind of someone who has thought it through, but you're free to just consider it hopeless and not try. But this is a stance you opened the thread with, and I didn't get the impression you were closed to it being challenged, so I'm here challenging it.

I think you misunderstand. Obviously we are usually exchanging in an attempt to grasp something objective, if it can be done, and that's cool. But at times the manner in which you word your objections is presuming that I am operating on your view of how these stories played out. It isn't really a challenge to me when that happens because we aren't meeting halfway. How do I respond to your criticism of my reactions to Dimitri and Claude loaded with your own stances and not my own? Naturally the picture painted is illogical, it's neither me nor you.

It's not a big deal really, I'm probably doing it all the time and I just don't know it, lol. It was an observation I put out there because as is to be expected as internet disagreements go on, the time formulating the ever weaving threads, it becomes increasingly clear that this is merely an illusion, and we are stuck in an Achilles and the Tortoise situation. Goal posts are moved, threads are lost or replace others, we drop a thread and pick it up again all over. No amount of licks will lead us to the center of the Tootsie Pop. This isn't an accusation on you, by the way. It's the nature of the territory lol. I don't pretend to be wiser in the way of arguments or narratives... like at all.

I've enjoyed the concepts and ideas debated here as much as I can and I thank you for your time, Crysta.

P.S. Blue Lions da best.

[Crysta]

Eh, fair enough. I'm pretty confident I'm not conveying myself well if I'm repeating myself, and I can't see my argumentative shortcomings as much as I'd like to. Not interested in continuing further if you're not going to enjoy it.

Thanks for being more reasonable than 99.9% of the people I have longwinded internet arguments with. 

[Strullemia]

Seems like you're not the only one.

A lot of Japanese also really seem to like it.

https://old.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/ctif4p/heres_nintendo_dream_poll_results/

[ZanaLyrander]

I will confess, Black Eagles was my first run, and it left me disappointed. It was good, and well written, and I’m glad I played that one first (because it doesn’t measure up to the others, and thus would have been quite a letdown had I played it later), but it feels rushed. It’s significantly shorter than the other paths, and honestly that makes no sense to me... the epilogue indicates that after defeating the Church, your characters all continued the fight against Those Who Slither, so why the heck didn’t they show that? Why not have like 3 or 4 more chapters of turning on and hunting down Those Who Slither? Honestly I wouldn’t even have minded if they practically copy-pasted the last couple chapters of the Golden Deer path. Those Who Slither are responsible for experimenting on and harming Edelgard and her family, and this is supposed to be her story, why don’t they get their just desserts on screen? Edelgard successfully defeats her political opponents, achieves her goal, but you don’t show the conflict she actually has a personal investment in? That feels wrong. 

[timon]

58 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

I will confess, Black Eagles was my first run, and it left me disappointed. It was good, and well written, and I’m glad I played that one first (because it doesn’t measure up to the others, and thus would have been quite a letdown had I played it later), but it feels rushed. It’s significantly shorter than the other paths, and honestly that makes no sense to me... the epilogue indicates that after defeating the Church, your characters all continued the fight against Those Who Slither, so why the heck didn’t they show that? Why not have like 3 or 4 more chapters of turning on and hunting down Those Who Slither? Honestly I wouldn’t even have minded if they practically copy-pasted the last couple chapters of the Golden Deer path. Those Who Slither are responsible for experimenting on and harming Edelgard and her family, and this is supposed to be her story, why don’t they get their just desserts on screen? Edelgard successfully defeats her political opponents, achieves her goal, but you don’t show the conflict she actually has a personal investment in? That feels wrong. 

I don't think anyone understood that design choice tbh, someone's saying that her final battle needed to be against Rhea because she's her final enemy, but I don't agree with that at all. Rhea is her political enemy, the enemy of her goals, TWSITD are her personal enemies, so it would've been a lot more fitting to have a closure against them, to complete her character arc.

My theory is simply that they didn't finish it in time and had to write it off tbh, let's not forget that this game was delayed a fair bit so development didn't go as smoothly as initally thought (and the first build they've shown was very very early stuff), I think they needed a bit more time but couldn't do it because 1) Nintendo needed this release to "fill up" the months leading to bigger stuff and 2) delaying two times is not good marketing.

It's not even just the route, Edelgard's paralogue is a copypaste of Hilda's, which makes me think is the reason they had to remove Hilda from her route (she has endings coded in for CF).

[ZanaLyrander]

2 minutes ago, timon said:

I don't think anyone understood that design choice tbh, someone's saying that her final battle needed to be against Rhea because she's her final enemy, but I don't agree with that at all. Rhea is her political enemy, the enemy of her goals, TWSITD are her personal enemies, so it would've been a lot more fitting to have a closure against them, to complete her character arc.

My theory is simply that they didn't finish it in time and had to write it off tbh, let's not forget that this game was delayed a fair bit so development didn't go as smoothly as initally thought (and the first build they've shown was very very early stuff), I think they needed a bit more time but couldn't do it because 1) Nintendo needed this release to "fill up" the months leading to bigger stuff and 2) delaying two times is not good marketing.

It's not even just the route, Edelgard's paralogue is a copypaste of Hilda's, which makes me think is the reason they had to remove Hilda from her route (she has endings coded in for CF).

That seems likely. Her path definitely feels rushed. I hope they’ll expand on it with the DLC, maybe have the war against Those Who Slither as a follow up campaign or something. It’s still well written, and emotionally impactful, more so than the Golden Deer path was (as awesome as the Nemesis boss fight was it felt... oddly out of place? Like this guy has been dead and gone for 1000 years, he had nothing to do with the ongoing war until right now, this is the final boss?), but it still felt like it ended too abruptly, and didn’t actually resolve Edelgard’s arc. I guess that’s why it bugged me, it had the potential to be the best path, if they hadn’t cut it off so suddenly.

[Thane]

1 minute ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Her path definitely feels rushed.

Strange, considering Edelgard is a bit of a poster child for this game. I definitely thought Edelgard would be the most involved with the mole people...which she is, but it doesn't lead anywhere.

[ZanaLyrander]

Just now, Thane said:

Strange, considering Edelgard is a bit of a poster child for this game. I definitely thought Edelgard would be the most involved with the mole people...which she is, but it doesn't lead anywhere.

Seriously, I would have thought they would have worked on her path first, so it feels really odd to imagine that they ran out of time, but that’s the only explanation I have for it...

[0 Def Cleric]

I would imagine that they saved her route for last to make sure it fit with all the events they set up on all the other routes... and then they ran out of time making the second half of fitting with other events (slitherers.) They probably wanted it to come off pretty strong, but oops. 

[ZanaLyrander]

It is weird to think that for Edelgard, none of this was personal: she doesn’t hate Dimitri or Rhea, they’re merely obstacles between her and the better world she seeks. The enemy she actually hates she spends the whole game allied with, and doesn’t deal with them until the epilogue, and we never actually get to see her revenge. It’s a weird feeling.

[Wuzzy]

44 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

I would imagine that they saved her route for last to make sure it fit with all the events they set up on all the other routes... and then they ran out of time making the second half of fitting with other events (slitherers.) They probably wanted it to come off pretty strong, but oops. 

I think this is the part that I wanted to see the most, just because even though the game does tell you TWiSTD, I can't help really think how it might have been possible? Just because...

• Imperial army seems pretty exhausted (took pretty big losses in Arianrhord) 
• Edelgard's time is limited (I feel that a lot of people who played BE-E thought Crests disappeared with Rhea's death / Byleth losing his crest and connection with Sothis, but endings with Sylvain + Byleth, Edelgard + Lysithea, Linhardt + Hanneman imply that crests exist for every other person)
• Rhea is dead (arguably a bigger threat to TWiSTD than Edelgard, considering the events in Church route)
• Dimitri is dead and Claude is dead/left (BL route kinda hinted that Dimitri also posed a problem to TWiSTD, though I feel that you'd have to play BE-E first to make the connection)
• Byleth lost his/her connection to Sothis (no more Divine Pulse)
• Didn't state this at all but, I'd assume there'd be anti-Empire sentiment in the existing Kingdom and Alliance which could also pose a problem

Though the game says that it is more of a war within the shadows but still, can't really think about how Edelgard could've beaten TWiSTD with all of those problems at hand. But the game explicitly tells you it happened so, I guess that works out.

[timon]

6 minutes ago, Lunarly said:

I think this is the part that I wanted to see the most, just because even though the game does tell you TWiSTD, I can't help really think how it might have been possible? Just because...

• Imperial army seems pretty exhausted (took pretty big losses in Arianrhord) 
• Edelgard's time is limited (I feel that a lot of people who played BE-E thought Crests disappeared with Rhea's death / Byleth losing his crest and connection with Sothis, but endings with Sylvain + Byleth, Edelgard + Lysithea, Linhardt + Hanneman imply that crests exist for every other person)
• Rhea is dead (arguably a bigger threat to TWiSTD than Edelgard, considering the events in Church route)
• Dimitri is dead and Claude is dead/left (BL route kinda hinted that Dimitri also posed a problem to TWiSTD, though I feel that you'd have to play BE-E first to make the connection)
• Byleth lost his/her connection to Sothis (no more Divine Pulse)
• Didn't state this at all but, I'd assume there'd be anti-Empire sentiment in the existing Kingdom and Alliance which could also pose a problem

Though the game says that it is more of a war within the shadows but still, can't really think about how Edelgard could've beaten TWiSTD with all of those problems at hand. But the game explicitly tells you it happened so, I guess that works out.

I think it's really all about the last thing you pointed out. It's a war in the shadows. IIRC Hubert tells you that internal conflicts have been happening for quite some time, and that he intends to personally deal with them without worrying Edelgard. Obviously the ending tells us that she leads the charge, but we could guess that before this happens our local vampire does a fair amount of work to weaken them.

And they're already pretty weakened, with Edelgard as emperor. Arundel doesn't really hold much more political power, he can't abuse the nobility system since it's basically destroyed, Cornelia and Solon are dead. So yeah, the Empire is not at its best, but the slitherers are in a similar position.