Let's give Gen 1/2 Units Gen 3 BST!

[Zeo]

When Dragonflowers were first released I was under the impression that they were a way to give a treat to your favorite units that applied in PvP modes, but also that they doubled as a way to help the Gen 1 units (namely infantry) catch up to the Gen 2, 3 and looks to be 4 units that have utterly left them behind. I came to realize that was untrue for 2 reasons. 1. Gen 2 infantry is subject to the same boosts, so Ayra and Karla can get those +2 to all stats just like Selena can. 2. The other movement types of old don't get the extra boost, so their BST is left in the dust.

SI is a thing and weapon refines tend to bring old units out of the gutter but in a lot of cases they simply don't stand the test of time compared to the new ones, particularly the unlucky units that get the earliest refines. As powercreep continues the newer refines get newer and superior effects and the older ones show their age (Lyn and Jaffar are prime examples of this).

So I had an idea, why not apply the Gen 3 BST to the older units. You can theorize and discuss this, I doubt it's possible to do in-game but we can at least theorize and discuss the additional 5-10 stats these older units would be getting and where they would be distributed. I'll list the stats then throw out a few of the examples you'd expect from me. I'll make a format, you can follow if you like. CYL3 units are special cases so BST will be calculated using alternative, though recent examples. Sigrun is also going to be counted as a Gen 4 unit, so she does not apply here either.

Gen 3 BST:

• Spoiler

   

  • Infantry Melee: 168 (As of Hilda)
  • Infantry Magic: 156 (As of Hubert)
  • Infantry Bow/Dag: 162 (As of Kronya/L!Alm)
  • Flying Melee: 162
  • Flying Magic: 150
  • Flying Bow: 156 (As of S!Loki)
  • Flying Dagger: 155 (As of Petra)
  • Cavalry Melee: 157 (As of DK)
  • Cavalry Ranged: 145
  • Cavalry Dag: 144 (As of HS!Elise)
  • Cavalry Bow: 150 (As of Claude)
  • Armor Melee: 174
  • Armor Ranged: 165
  • Dancer Melee: 150
  • Dancer Ranged: 140
  • Infantry Healer: 157 (As of Brady/Mercedes)
  • Cavalry Healer: 146 (As of Ethlyn)
  • Flying Healer: 150 (As of Fjorm)
  • Armored Healer: 165

   

Things like Dragons and Trainee boosts result in confusing stat changes and nonsensical things like 180 BST so I'm going to avoid those. So yeah, basically the point of this topic is to discuss BST boosts to old units and if you like, apply those boosts to units of your choosing and state why they would be distributed that way. I'm tired so I'm only going to do one of these for now. I probably won't be able to edit this post so sorry if I've gotten information wrong slightly. Ok here we go.

• Matthew: Faithful Spy
• BST: 148 > 162 (12 Stat Increase)
• SPD +5, DEF +5, RES +2
• (OLD) : HP: 41 / ATK: 25 / SPD: 34 / DEF: 30 / RES: 18
• (NEW) : HP: 41 / ATK: 25 / SPD: 39 / DEF: 35 / RES: 20
• Explaination: Matt's ATK cannot be salvaged. You could dump all 12 points into ATK and it would still just make him Sothe with a bit more bulk. His weapon circumvents his ATK issue to begin with. His problem is that he's not fast enough for the little damage he's putting out on a regular basis. 34 Speed has long since been obsolete and his statline has been powercreeped time and time again and even is comparable if not inferior to Saizo's, another launch unit. Pumping into his SPD to give him 39 (41 with a boon) would completely shift him into another tier and allow him to better run sweep skills, double faster opponents and reach 43-46 SPD naturally at max merge, far more fitting for his spread. We could put the other 5 points into ATK but that would just make his attack go from horrible to average, anything he wasn't already killing with Spy's Dagger he's not going to kill now. Instead adding the +5 to his DEF bulks him up to better soak up hits with his dagger's effect and the +2 to RES serves to take his poor RES stat out of the gutter and into (below average territory). Again we could give these points to ATK but I really don't see the point. Giving him +6 SPD and ATK for 31/40 offenses is not the way to go and I don't think it would serve him as well as increasing speed and bulk.

 

• Serra: Outspoken Cleric
• BST: 148 > 157 (9 Stat Increase)
• HP +1, ATK +2, SPD+3, DEF +1, RES +2
• (OLD) : HP: 33 / ATK: 30 / SPD: 31 / DEF: 21 / RES: 33
• (NEW) : HP: 34 / ATK: 32 / SPD: 34 / DEF: 22 / RES: 35
• Explanation: Serra has never really specialized in any specific stat. She's always had good RES but everything else has always been pretty average in my experience with her. Paper DEF and HP as you'd expect and workable ATK/SPD in most situations. That was the case in launch but at this point in the game it's middling bordering on below average. She was a jack of all trades but now she's more like a 10 or 9 card if you get what I mean. Due to her lack of specialization giving her CYL offensive stats wouldn't make sense. A general increase across the board would be best for her. A boost to 32/34 offenses makes her respectable and serviceable with a solid 35 ATK or 37 SPD with a boon, the RES increase gives her more Ploying potential and the HP/DEF +1 while it seems minimal gives her much needed bulk and you'll find a lot of cases where the enemy will have just enough to oneshot her, in that regard this is huge.

 

So let's hear what you guys think about this, how would you distribute those additional stats to Gen 1 units, and why? Do you even think it's worth it? @Kaden You give very detailed posts, I'd like to pick your brain here.

•  

[Azuni]

35 minutes ago, Zeo said:

Armor Ranged: 165

Just a minor nitpick, but armor ranged is split up just like Physical vs Magic for the other classes; Physical (Dagger/Bow) have gained an extra modifier over the Magical ones, in addition to any other modifiers that my be applied.
The only ranged armor that has been released after the new modifiers was a Dagger, with Picnic Flora boasting 170 bst instead of the ~165 bst from Gen1/2 ranged armors like H!Jakob and W!Cecilia. I totally didn't point this out just because the chart reminded me that W!Cecilia essentially lost 5 bst for being released a little too early

[X-Naut]

1 hour ago, Zeo said:

BST: 148 > 162 (12 Stat Increase)

this is your third grade math teacher, see me after class

Another minor nitpick is that bow/dagger should be in the same BST bin, and slight variations are because stats are stored as bases+growths rather than caps. But I like the idea of this topic! It's something I wish would happen in the game, and I might dump a couple here later.

[Usana]

Honestly I can't see them going back and retooling units like your examples. If they do give all the old units stats it would be like dragonflowers. Possibly just a straight +1 or +2 to all for a 5-10pt bst increase. Or maybe let gen 1 units be merged to +15, though that would likely confuse some folks? Or just apply an invisible merge like bonus until the bst reaches the current levels? This would let each unit be tailored individually so that all the bst falls in line without requiring a lot of thinking. Just doing a a +2 or +1 to all stats to units under the current values could end up with some odd values I imagine. But yeah I'd imagine they would prefer a system that can just be auto-applied without having to consider each old unit at this point. Though whatever system is concocted it would be nice to take HP out of the system. Most of these older units wouldn't care for an extra hp point or two, but could really use 2 points elsewhere. Or at least that is my impression.

Like you I thought that was what they were doing with dragonflowers, but it doesn't really work since only the infantry can make use of it and they only get 5 more bst than their counterparts. Plus the cost would get enormous at some point due to it ever increasing.

[Hilda]

I dont see them doing anything even remotly close to this. Dragonflowers are the best bet and they want to keep people summoning.

Just look at the Blue lance flier pool. Its so bloated, why would anyone ever summon for a new released Blue lance flyer unless it has an awesome personal weapon or skill or is a favourite character of them.

I mean i get why people want this but I also get why IS doesnt want this. They want to make money with summons. Increased BST to the point where it makes a huge difference and can only overcome with Dragonflowers (we arent there yet), is a way to limit people only upgrading "free" 3-4 Star units.

[Xenomata]

Minor nitpick, but so we are clear the way that growths work is not simply going from 48 BST to 160 BST, it is going from 48 BST and then having separate growth rates for each stat that eventually adds up to 160 BST. That's how we get Superboons and Superbanes, because some stats add up in some archaic way that having a natural 30 increase to a stat turns into 33 increase with a boon in the stat instead of the usual 2 (the additional one point comes from the increased base of the stat.)

Here's a link to the Gamepedia page explaining how Growth Rates work.
You can also check Gamepedia for the BST and Growth Rates of every unit in the game, provided they haven't literally just been datamined.

So for your listings above...

8 hours ago, Zeo said:

• Infantry Melee: 168 (As of Hilda) (49 BST and 275% total growth rates)
• Infantry Magic: 156 (As of Hubert) (46 BST and 255% GR)
• Infantry Bow/Dag: 162 (As of Kronya/L!Alm) (47 BST and 265% GR)
• Flying Melee: 162 (47 BST and 265% GR)
• Flying Magic: 150 (44 BST and 245% GR)
• Flying Bow: 156 (As of S!Loki) (45 BST and 255% GR)
• Flying Dagger: 155 (As of Petra) (Same as Flying Bow.)
• Cavalry Melee: 157 (As of DK) (46 BST and 255% GR)
• Cavalry Magic: 145 (43 BST and 235% GR)
• Cavalry Dag: 144 (As of HS!Elise) (same as Cav. Magic)
• Cavalry Bow: 150 (As of Claude) (44 BST and 245% GR)
• Armor Melee: 174 (55 BST and 275% GR)
• Armor Ranged: 170 (53 BST and 270% GR) (numbers based on Picnic Flora)
• Dancer Melee: 150 (39 BST and 255% GR)
• Dancer Ranged: 140 (36 and 240% GR)
• Infantry Healer: 157 (As of Brady/Mercedes) (46 BST and 255% GR)
• Cavalry Healer: 146 (As of Ethlyn) (43 BST and 235% GR)
• Flying Healer: 150 (As of Fjorm) (44 BST and 245% GR)
• Armored Healer: 165 (52 BST and 260% GR)

I bring this up because it opens the door for something else. Say you give Abel an extra 5% GR in Atk, that'd be as simple as giving him +2 Atk. But then take a look at Lucina: if you give her an extra 15% growth in Atk, she suddenly has +7 to her Atk instead of the predicted +6 because of how growth rates work. In the same vein, you could give her +10% GR to her Atk and Spd and they become potential SuperAssets.

Let's look at Matthew, for instance, whose current Growth totals are 44 BST and 240% Growth Rates, and lets boost him to the same BST/GR as Kronya. For you to get the +5 Spd and Def and +2 Res, you would add 10% to his Spd, 10% to his Def, and 5% to his Res. You would then give one additional BST to Spd and Def, and boom you have +12 to his stats. But wait! He still has one unused BST point! Let's put it into his Res, and he is all the better for it.
Now an alternative would be to take one BST from his Spd or Def and put it into Res instead for an equal Res boost and then shift the growth that would have gone to Res into Spd or Def instead. Why? Because now not only will his Spd or Def be slightly higher, but he will also receive a potential SuperAsset in the stat.

Just something to remember, because again it isn't as simple as adding +12 to a units level 40 BST.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Xenomata

[Humanoid]

Not that it'd ever happen, but given the assumption that their goal is to keep people summoning for the new hotness every month, how about a requirement to sack Gen 3 units in order to promote an older unit to Gen 3 stats? It could be accomplished by a earning new currency that you get for sending a Gen 3 unit home, then spending them at a rate that scales with the number of merges the old unit has.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Humanoid

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, Humanoid said:

Not that it'd ever happen, but given the assumption that their goal is to keep people summoning for the new hotness every month, how about a requirement to sack Gen 3 units in order to promote an older unit to Gen 3 stats? It could be accomplished by a earning new currency that you get for sending a Gen 3 unit home, then spending them at a rate that scales with the number of merges the old unit has.

Still easier to +10 a 3-4 Star unit and then fodder of a 5 Star Gen 3 unit then building a 5 Star Gen 3 unit. So nope wont happen.

The best bet are Dragonflowers, because:

1. They are limited, so the amount of full "free" built up 3-4 Star units is limited
2. They are kinda tied to summoning, because new units give 40 Dragonflowers.

And I believe this is the way IS will handle this, at one point with Gen 4 or Gen 5 units they will up the cap on Gen 1/Gen2 and Gen 3 units and prolly add more Dragonflower rewards (but it will still be steep to go from +10 Dragonflowers to +15 but easier to go from 0 to +10)

Since Dragonflowers dont count towards Arena Calculation this also keeps AR Duell skills relevant to some degree.

[Humanoid]

7 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Still easier to +10 a 3-4 Star unit and then fodder of a 5 Star Gen 3 unit then building a 5 Star Gen 3 unit.

The idea is that you'd need to fodder 11 Gen 3 units if the older unit was +10. The bigger issue I can think of is the existence of 4* Gen 3 units, not sure how to handle those but that's just detail really.

Dragonflowers are fine but are intentionally tuned as to not provide parity, doubt they'd change that philosophy.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Humanoid

[Xenomata]

Wow... I think we all know it won't and at this rate can't happen, but can't you guys have a little fun with it instead of dissecting the reason why it can't and won't happen...?
I mean think about it, double Superassets Lucina!

[Zeo]

17 hours ago, X-Naut said:

this is your third grade math teacher, see me after class

This is what happens when you make a post at 8 in the morning instead of sleeping when it requires a large amount of analytical data. You miss 2 numbers. 14 points of stats is unbelievably huge. I can't believe how in the dust Gen 1 units have been left.

11 hours ago, Hilda said:

I dont see them doing anything even remotly close to this. Dragonflowers are the best bet and they want to keep people summoning.

Just look at the Blue lance flier pool. Its so bloated, why would anyone ever summon for a new released Blue lance flyer unless it has an awesome personal weapon or skill or is a favourite character of them.

I mean i get why people want this but I also get why IS doesnt want this. They want to make money with summons. Increased BST to the point where it makes a huge difference and can only overcome with Dragonflowers (we arent there yet), is a way to limit people only upgrading "free" 3-4 Star units.

From a purely financial/business perspective it wouldn't make very much sense to be realistic. But the other purpose of this topic was to theory craft.

@Xenomata I imagine the calculations only get even more convoluted as I come to realize that launch daggers have a BST difference of 14 rather than 12 which only serves to complicate things more. It's true I didn't account for things like superboons and superbanes. Not that buffing up older units in that regard is a bad thing necessarily, but it does tamper with the semblance of a system that we currently have with stats, bins and growths. Growths in particular is something... unseen on the surface as it pertains to this game.

[Troykv]

So... I think I would just give Micaiah some extra stats.

(Old) 35 HP 35 ATK 28 SPD 18 DEF 35 RES = 151 BST

(New) 36 HP 37 ATK 28 SPD 18 DEF 37 RES = 156 BST

I just added the +1 at base stats in her HP because I wanted to continue the tradition with her Atk/Res

[FoxyGrandpa]

Hmm, I've been think about this for a while. Obviously IS isn't gonna do this since cause $$$ and dragonflowers are a band-aid fix to the bst gap, but it is interesting to speculate about.

Roy

Spoiler

 

Roy: 158 -> 168 (+10)

Atk + 2, Spd + 3, Def + 5

Old: 44 / 30 / 31 / 25 / 28

New: 44 / 32 / 34 / 30 / 28

The stat increases are meant to aid Roy's role as a defensive unit. The added defensive greatly increases Roy's capability as a defensive unit, especially combined with the bracing stance effect of his weapon. The speed increase is mainly meant to make Roy more resistant to follow-up attacks, and the attack increase helps him deal with dragons more effectively on the enemy phase. Pretty straightforward.

Eirika

Spoiler

Eirika: 157 -> 167 (+10)

Atk + 4, Spd + 2, Def + 4

Old: 42 / 26 / 35 / 26 / 28

New: 42 / 30 / 37 / 30 /28

One of base Eirika's biggest problems is her lacking atk and def, being reliant on visible buffs from her to fix these stats. The +4 boosts to these stats help make her a stronger fighter on her own. I gave her a bit of extra speed as well to catch up with current powercreep.

I'd also update her weapon to have built in hone attack 4 instead of 3.

Marth

Spoiler

Marth: 158 -> 168 (+10)

Def + 3, Res + 7

Old: 41 / 31 / 34 / 29 / 23

New: 41 / 31 / 34 / 32 / 30

Marth is mostly a supportive unit, so I focused on giving him much better defenses to capitalize on this. The extra res helps him a ton when dueling dragons specifically, but can help him use skills like null C-disrupt effectively. Since all of his stats are "decent", he'll scale wonderfully with merges, summoner support, and stat boosting skills like Fury or Fortress Def Res.