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What gameplay elements should be kept/abandoned moving forward from here?


Jotari
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3 minutes ago, Yexin said:

i never said i like weapon durability (although i'm all for its presence in FE titles), nor that you're not worthy of my time; i'm sorry if that's the impression you got

what i meant is "you have your well-defined idea and you don't seem willing to change that, thus trying to do so would end up in a failed attempt"

simple as that, i never meant to offend you

That’s fair, sorry if I misunderstood (tone is impossible to convey in text, it’s very possible I interpreted that as far more condescending than you intended it).

I will admit you have a point in that being bothered or unfazed by this sort of mechanic is fairly binary and fairly subjective: either you’re going to be bothered by it or you won’t, and that’s largely dependent on your personality, so I doubt either of us could really convince the other that we’re right. My attitude towards weapon durability has always been that it’s a foolish wager, because when implemented well, it adds little to a game, and when implemented poorly it can ruin an otherwise good game, but again, that’s fairly subjective.

For what it’s worth, Three Houses implements the mechanic better than most. Having a repair mechanic at all puts it head and shoulders above how it’s implemented in games like Breath of the Wild or some older Fire Emblem games. It’s presence in Three Houses was a minor annoyance at most that only made me sad because from my perspective it was a step backwards given that more recent FE games had done away with it.

Again, sorry for the overreaction. ❤️

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3 hours ago, timon said:
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Yeah, ok, for the avatar it might make sense so you can get to A with everyone in one go, and set the romance only in the ending. But why doesn't it work like that for every other character? It's just incredibly awkward that you can have someone have two romantic supports in a row with different people, and what's worse, you can't even choose with whom they'll get the paired ending.

imo the best way of doing it is no romance in A support, but ability to unlock one A+ support between character (without conversation) that just locks in the paired ending. Having to fiddle with hidden support points is just dumb.

 

Support points apparently go beyond A, so it's whichever support has the highest total that gets the ending. And like all other support points, they're hidden.

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6 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Support points apparently go beyond A, so it's whichever support has the highest total that gets the ending. And like all other support points, they're hidden.

Yes they're always been hidden, except when there's a conversation. That's the point, in Fates/Awakening you can tell who's going to get paired with whom because the fact that they get S lets you know that they have a certain amount of points, and activating the conversation locks them into that ending. That's kind of what I'm hoping we'll go back to, without necessarily having the mostly awkward S conversation. Just, once I get enough points for A+ let me click a button and lock that ending, so I don't have to manage units around for the rest of the game trying not to screw up a pair.

But my biggest hope is that we can remove romance from non locked ranks. It doesn't make sense that I can get someone 3 A ranks if said A ranks are explicitly romantic. Either make the A rank non-romantic (and add in the choice for the endings) or lock characters to one A rank only, otherwise it's just very weird.

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5 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

It's possible to fall in love whit multiple people at the same time you know.

I don't doubt it, but promising to marry and live the rest of your life with someone (who says it back) and doing the same 5 seconds later with someone else is a bit much, you know?

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Gauntlets are a strong weapon type, especially early but the best classes can't use them and the main gauntlet classes are male only.  Late game though they certainly outperform the other melee weapons very well especially against monsters. Granted against normal enemies most melee weapons do the job just as well. 

Paralouges being character driven is good probably should keep that. 

Things like flexible class changing seems more questionable. One problem I think is there's not enough master classes. You know in older Fire Emblem games with split promotions. There was more tier 2 classes than tier 1 classes. In this game there's a almost the same amount of master and advanced classes in the game. The fact some people claim master classes are like sidegrades really makes the master classes seem lame because there's not enough options. Paladin has no real advancement in master tier. Mortal Savant only exists to give swordmasters more movement but at the cost of their speed growth. Holy knight is completely pointless with the existence of dark knight and only serves to have faith be a requirement in one of the master classes. 

Another problem with the certifications is you tend to waste skill ranks into things you won't use at all in your master class. Why the fuck would you ever use swords on a falcon knight when you have lancefaire? Don't say weight because your falcon knights should be so fast they can double with short spears and eventually hero's relics. Same thing with bow knight why would you ever use a lance when bows have the ability to counter at 1-4 range. There's no weapon triangle to make you potentially switch weapons to have it in your favor. I also dislike how weapon prowess takes up an ability slot. It just makes you have less options. 

Class masteries are nice but a lot of mastery skills are awful especially the master classes barring enlightened one and war master. Also master classes mastery abilities are obtained so late to matter unless it's the enlightened one. Only a few classes have worthwhile mastery skills and all of them are in intermediate. Though I have seen people use smite to good use for 1 turn clears. 

If the game had balance changes which is something I heavily doubt. Buffing some of the classes would help. Like making Mortal Savant not have a negative speed growth or give the holy knight double white magic uses. Maybe make fortress knights not the worst class ever. We will likely get DLC classes though.

The exploring and instruction part of the game. I think there should be less of this later in the game as you end up burning out and just resting or seminar just to get it over with. You just go through the motions in exploring late game with your 10 explore points. Hell late game I just used explore to build support points with characters  on the bench. It's possible for someone like Claude to have all of his supports done in his route with exploring just make sure to have Ingrid Annette and Petra on your team. 

Spells being replenished but less uses is nice. Though being able to constantly abuse white magic like warp and fortify freely is insanely strong. A lot of late game maps can be one turned with 2 warp/rescue users and 1-2 boss killers and a dancer or stride. Also this is just a personal thing but let people see what spells people can learn. You don't have to explicitly say what that spell is but give the magic menu grayed out abilities knowing when they can learn a spell. 

Now for battalions and adjutants. Adjutants grant a lot more EXP than I expected but should be fine as it is. Though the negating double adjutants could prove useful in harder difficulties. Fliers being limited on their battalions and adjutants is a good way to nerf them but fliers are still too OP. Battalions though especially the high rank ones give such good stats that it really benefits units with mediocre strength but good speed units way more than the opposite. Being slow in this game is very hard to fix. Unless there's an exploit to get speed carrots 100% of the time being slow in this game is terrible. 

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3 hours ago, PPPPPPP270 said:

Being slow in this game is very hard to fix. Unless there's an exploit to get speed carrots 100% of the time being slow in this game is terrible. 

This brings up an issue that's been bothering me since Radiant Dawn and got super exacerbated in Awakening, and it's one I don't haven't really had a good idea on how to address it.

Stat inflation has been massive since Radiant Dawn. Before, the series capped most stats around the mid 20s. With Radiant Dawn, they boosted it a bit with the third tiers, and that game had high caps be more around 35-40, and back in the day that seemed nuts. But since Awakening, the caps have gone as high as 50+, though Fates was closer to RD and Echoes went with 40 as the cap and a total variation delta of like, +/-3.

The AS formula they've been using for decades doesn't work anymore when stats get that high, especially on units like Hanneman. Units who get fucked in speed are doomed in ways that they didn't used to be. Obviously there used to be units who were low tier because their speed sucked. The GBA games doomed a lot of Axe Fighters because of this. But the problem is just so much worse now. Dorcas getting a lucky speed level up with his 20% speed growth is a much bigger deal in salvaging that character than Hanneman getting 2-3 lucky level ups in speed with his 20% speed growth. By end game, if you want Hanneman to survive any attack from a unit that isn't a goddamn Fortress Knight, you'll have needed him to have gotten waaaaaaaay luckier than Dorcas would have needed to to be end-game viable. Or you'll have to have specced him into Wyvern Lord for that ridiculous base speed. There are way more units in Three Houses whose viability hinge entirely on their speed.

Ideally I would want them to go back to 30 being the standard stat cap, but the issue stems from how IS structures the games these days. If you want big, long stories, like IS seems to want these days, you can't put caps that low, without lowering the growth rates, which have also kinda spiraled out of control. But that issue cropped up because it helps the pace of the games. FE games feel a lot slower when characters are barely growing from level to level, so they're been ramping up unit growth rates and level caps. Comparing how character progression feels from OG Gaiden to Echoes encapsulates this pretty well.

Alternatively, they could just rework their AS doubling formula to fit with these modern titles, but I have no idea how you do that without making it impossible to double in the early game and thus making the early games feel slow as fuck.

The only thing I can think of is doing the Radiant Dawn thing and making you play as several forces who all level independently, but that's an idea that would have to be executed very well, judging from the complaints I've seen about how RD handled it.

Edited by Slumber
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14 minutes ago, Slumber said:

This brings up an issue that's been bothering me since Radiant Dawn and got super exacerbated in Awakening, and it's one I don't haven't really had a good idea on how to address it.

Stat inflation has been massive since Radiant Dawn. Before, the series capped most stats around the mid 20s. With Radiant Dawn, they boosted it a bit with the third tiers, and that game had high caps be more around 35-40, and back in the day that seemed nuts. But since Awakening, the caps have gone as high as 50+, though Fates was closer to RD and Echoes went with 40 as the cap and a total variation delta of like, +/-3.

The AS formula they've been using for decades doesn't work anymore when stats get that high, especially on units like Hanneman. Units who get fucked in speed are doomed in ways that they didn't used to be. Obviously there used to be units who were low tier because their speed sucked. The GBA games doomed a lot of Axe Fighters because of this. But the problem is just so much worse now. Dorcas getting a lucky speed level up with his 20% speed growth is a much bigger deal in salvaging that character than Hanneman getting 2-3 lucky level ups in speed with his 20% speed growth. By end game, if you want Hanneman to survive any attack from a unit that isn't a goddamn Fortress Knight, you'll have needed him to have gotten waaaaaaaay luckier than Dorcas would have needed to to be end-game viable. Or you'll have to have specced him into Wyvern Lord for that ridiculous base speed. There are way more units in Three Houses whose viability hinge entirely on their speed.

Ideally I would want them to go back to 30 being the standard stat cap, but the issue stems from how IS structures the games these days. If you want big, long stories, like IS seems to want these days, you can't put caps that low, without lowering the growth rates, which have also kinda spiraled out of control. But that issue cropped up because it helps the pace of the games. FE games feel a lot slower when characters are barely growing from level to level, so they're been ramping up unit growth rates and level caps. Comparing how character progression feels from OG Gaiden to Echoes encapsulates this pretty well.

Alternatively, they could just rework their AS doubling formula to fit with these modern titles, but I have no idea how you do that without making it impossible to double in the early game and thus making the early games feel slow as fuck.

The only thing I can think of is doing the Radiant Dawn thing and making you play as several forces who all level independently, but that's an idea that would have to be executed very well, judging from the complaints I've seen about how RD handled it.

Speed is a stupid stat in the first place. Pre rd games dodged the issue by having trash enemies  that even oswin would double. You can't balance a game were a small stat difference means double damage. If you make so your healers can tank a double attacks, they became extremely tanky againist single attacks, but if you make so they can only take 1 hit, they are doomed if they are screwed. 

Combat arts are a step into making units less reliant in speed to kill stuff, but they still need to adress defense. 

Stat inflation imo is good because the reason why Seth, Sigurd and the like are so strong is  that they start whit more than 50-60% of the max stats achievable, and the games does not require max stats in the first place so really they are a couple points away from the endgame benchmarks from the start. Growths  should matter and matter a lot, but as long as speed is so centralizing they can't make it a weakness or it completely cripple a character. They can't really remove doubling after 16 games, but maybe some defensive combat arts could help?

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11 hours ago, Slumber said:

This brings up an issue that's been bothering me since Radiant Dawn and got super exacerbated in Awakening, and it's one I don't haven't really had a good idea on how to address it.

Stat inflation has been massive since Radiant Dawn. Before, the series capped most stats around the mid 20s. With Radiant Dawn, they boosted it a bit with the third tiers, and that game had high caps be more around 35-40, and back in the day that seemed nuts. But since Awakening, the caps have gone as high as 50+, though Fates was closer to RD and Echoes went with 40 as the cap and a total variation delta of like, +/-3.

The AS formula they've been using for decades doesn't work anymore when stats get that high, especially on units like Hanneman. Units who get fucked in speed are doomed in ways that they didn't used to be. Obviously there used to be units who were low tier because their speed sucked. The GBA games doomed a lot of Axe Fighters because of this. But the problem is just so much worse now. Dorcas getting a lucky speed level up with his 20% speed growth is a much bigger deal in salvaging that character than Hanneman getting 2-3 lucky level ups in speed with his 20% speed growth. By end game, if you want Hanneman to survive any attack from a unit that isn't a goddamn Fortress Knight, you'll have needed him to have gotten waaaaaaaay luckier than Dorcas would have needed to to be end-game viable. Or you'll have to have specced him into Wyvern Lord for that ridiculous base speed. There are way more units in Three Houses whose viability hinge entirely on their speed.

Ideally I would want them to go back to 30 being the standard stat cap, but the issue stems from how IS structures the games these days. If you want big, long stories, like IS seems to want these days, you can't put caps that low, without lowering the growth rates, which have also kinda spiraled out of control. But that issue cropped up because it helps the pace of the games. FE games feel a lot slower when characters are barely growing from level to level, so they're been ramping up unit growth rates and level caps. Comparing how character progression feels from OG Gaiden to Echoes encapsulates this pretty well.

Alternatively, they could just rework their AS doubling formula to fit with these modern titles, but I have no idea how you do that without making it impossible to double in the early game and thus making the early games feel slow as fuck.

The only thing I can think of is doing the Radiant Dawn thing and making you play as several forces who all level independently, but that's an idea that would have to be executed very well, judging from the complaints I've seen about how RD handled it.

Makes me wonder how a Thracia remake would be handled. Because the universal 20 stat cap really makes a difference in that game. You hit caps and rather early for some units. Along with the crusader scrolls it kind of makes natural growth rates less important. As any unit trained to 20/20 will probably cap all their relevant stats, which are equal to any other unit that excels in that field. The only difference is how early/available the character is and what prf/supports/movement stars/weird EP crit mechanic they have. Even without the growth inflation, if Thracia just bumped up the stat caps by 10 points then it'd make the game feel very different. Thracia is almost the anti stats game, which would make it really weird in a stat inflated world.

And also the solution would be to just deflate caps again. Control the economy. Print less stats. Would casual new fans really dislike the game if they stopped seeing such big numbers? I really hope our entertainment media isn't that basic.

18 hours ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Gender Segregated Classes - I’m not about to go into the gender politics of this decision, that’s a discussion for someone else, but locking classes to specific genders is just frustrating game design. In many cases it doesn’t even make sense: the Brawler, Grappler, and War Master classes being male only basically restricts an entire weapon type to males, *despite the fact that two out of the three people who can train your main character in Brawling are female*. There’s really no benefit to restricting certain classes to certain genders.

Gender segregated classes are a thing I want to see die for political reasons (okay it's less politics and more variety is nice, why lock of potential character designs based on arbitrarily criteria?), but in most games it generally is harmless. You still get berserkers, that none of them happen to be berserkers doesn't change how the game is played. But in this game, where every character can become any (non unique) class, it absolutely changes how the game is played. Especially on the first play through when the master classes are locked from view until you get enough professor levels (or something). The game supposedly gives you full freedom to do anything you want with your characters class wise, but then locks access to certain classes based on gender. That's the opposite of freedom. It doesn't help that certain characters trend towards certain classes as it is. Linehardt trends towards high ranks in both magi types, yet he can't become a Gremorie. My first play through I only noticed this as he was approaching the promotion level and it became a mad scramble to give him horse and axe ranks to ensure he could promote to something in the master tier. I only got him a Dark Knight for the very last battle of the playthrough. In most games gender locked classes are mild aesthetic irritance, but in this one (and to a lesser extent Awakening), it's directly going against the design of the game.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Gender segregated classes are a thing I want to see die for political reasons (okay it's less politics and more variety is nice, why lock of potential character designs based on arbitrarily criteria?), but in most games it generally is harmless. You still get berserkers, that none of them happen to be berserkers doesn't change how the game is played. But in this game, where every character can become any (non unique) class, it absolutely changes how the game is played. Especially on the first play through when the master classes are locked from view until you get enough professor levels (or something). The game supposedly gives you full freedom to do anything you want with your characters class wise, but then locks access to certain classes based on gender. That's the opposite of freedom. It doesn't help that certain characters trend towards certain classes as it is. Linehardt trends towards high ranks in both magi types, yet he can't become a Gremorie. My first play through I only noticed this as he was approaching the promotion level and it became a mad scramble to give him horse and axe ranks to ensure he could promote to something in the master tier. I only got him a Dark Knight for the very last battle of the playthrough. In most games gender locked classes are mild aesthetic irritance, but in this one (and to a lesser extent Awakening), it's directly going against the design of the game.

Yeah, I agree, it didn’t bother me back in, for example, Sacred Stones or other early Fire Emblem games that there were no female Berserkers or male Pegasus Knights. When characters are locked into a certain class, dividing the classes up along gender lines is far less noticeable or bothersome. It’s only in games like this where everyone *supposedly* can become any class they want that it starts to annoy me. I also wonder about the in universe explanation... like, these classes are gated off by tests in the monastery, right? So what, is it just written on the syllabus that boys/girls aren’t allowed to take that test? Who set that policy, Rhea? Seems unlikely... and I feel like some of the more outspoken students would have something to say about that...

In some sense I have the same problem with it as I have with the 10-12 character limit in battle, it’s extremely detrimental to immersion, because the only reason that can explain those kind of mechanics is “because this is a video game”. They don’t even bother to try and explain it.

The Brawling being male-only thing particularly pisses me off because it turns the intro cutscene into a dirty lie: in the very first cutscene in the game, we witness Seros disarm Nemesis and then beat the crap out of him with her bare hands, which we all know now is completely impossible in game because female characters in Three Houses can never learn Unarmed Combat. Catherine and Rhea both instruct Byleth in Brawling, even though female characters effectively don’t have access to Brawling. It feels like one of those “the story team and the mechanics team weren’t in communication” things that throws me out of a lot of games. 

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16 hours ago, PPPPPPP270 said:

Fliers being limited on their battalions and adjutants is a good way to nerf them but fliers are still too OP. Battalions though especially the high rank ones give such good stats that it really benefits units with mediocre strength but good speed units way more than the opposite. Being slow in this game is very hard to fix. Unless there's an exploit to get speed carrots 100% of the time being slow in this game is terrible. 

Ironically, I found that one of the flaws you mentioned (fliers being OP) proved to be the solution for the other (characters getting screwed over by lousy speed). Wyvern Lords are OP in so many ways, but fixing low speed characters is a noteworthy one: Wyvern Lords have a minimum speed of 20, and provide 4 extra speed while in the class, for a total minimum speed of 24. For a lot of really slow characters like Raphael, or Hilda, 24 speed is *plenty*. Not to mention Wyvern lord has good speed growth, so they’ll only get faster from then on. It’s an investment, raising flying high enough to change to a Wyvern Lord takes time, but if you’ve got a character who is speed-screwed, turning them into a flyer could salvage them.

Of course that exacerbates your earlier complaint about flyers being OP, but with so much terrain on the maps that damages grounded units or slows their movement to a crawl, flyers were always going to be OP, there was really no avoiding it. I’m hoping in later games they don’t make the terrain quite so hostile, so flying units don’t feel quite so necessary. 

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2 hours ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Yeah, I agree, it didn’t bother me back in, for example, Sacred Stones or other early Fire Emblem games that there were no female Berserkers or male Pegasus Knights. When characters are locked into a certain class, dividing the classes up along gender lines is far less noticeable or bothersome. It’s only in games like this where everyone *supposedly* can become any class they want that it starts to annoy me. I also wonder about the in universe explanation... like, these classes are gated off by tests in the monastery, right? So what, is it just written on the syllabus that boys/girls aren’t allowed to take that test? Who set that policy, Rhea? Seems unlikely... and I feel like some of the more outspoken students would have something to say about that...

In some sense I have the same problem with it as I have with the 10-12 character limit in battle, it’s extremely detrimental to immersion, because the only reason that can explain those kind of mechanics is “because this is a video game”. They don’t even bother to try and explain it.

The Brawling being male-only thing particularly pisses me off because it turns the intro cutscene into a dirty lie: in the very first cutscene in the game, we witness Seros disarm Nemesis and then beat the crap out of him with her bare hands, which we all know now is completely impossible in game because female characters in Three Houses can never learn Unarmed Combat. Catherine and Rhea both instruct Byleth in Brawling, even though female characters effectively don’t have access to Brawling. It feels like one of those “the story team and the mechanics team weren’t in communication” things that throws me out of a lot of games. 

That sounds extremely likely. I bet Brawling as a new weapon type was something decided early in development which is why it's in the opening cutscene.  Not suggest the game was made in the order it's played, but that beat down was no coincidence. It's put first and foremost to advertise the new mechanic. My reaction when I saw that cutscene was "Well that's not something you can actually do in the game," only to discover an hour or so later that you can (I didn't look into much of any prerelease stuff). That's the reaction I expect they were looking for.

Now I'm kind of hoping they'll have Serios as a Brawling unit  in Heroes even though she has a sword XD.

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What they need to do to nerf fast characters and fix slow characters is make SPD a negative factor when calculating ATK.

make ATK Base = STR/MAG x 2 - SPD

Because STR/MAG is multiplied by 2, the ATK of [High STR/MAG, Low SPD] characters will skyrocket, while characters who are more likely to double will have their ATK stay relatively the same or even lower if their ATK was already low.

Edited by Hyper L
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1 hour ago, Hyper L said:

What they need to do to nerf fast characters and fix slow characters is make SPD a negative factor when calculating ATK.

make ATK Base = STR/MAG x 2 - SPD

Because STR/MAG is multiplied by 2, the ATK of [High STR/MAG, Low SPD] characters will skyrocket, while characters who are more likely to double will have their ATK stay relatively the same or even lower if their ATK was already low.

Why would SPD reduce attack power though? Speed is one of the main components of force.

 

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Oh, and I'm not sure if this really counts as a gameplay mechanic per se, but it is something Three Houses did that I hope continues.

I like how the boss music actually continues to play even on the map once the boss has been encountered and continues to play until they're defeated. Reminded me of how little you really get to hear of some boss themes like those in Awakening and Fates because the bosses don't last very long.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Why would SPD reduce attack power though? Speed is one of the main components of force.

 

To balance it out of course.

And you'll notice if you apply the formula I suggested it won't change anything but make slow characters considerably stronger.

Characters like Felix will still be able to attack an enemy for +30 x 2 Damage, but then characters like Raphael will now do +60 x 1 to that same enemy, instead of just +30 x1.

Edited by Hyper L
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14 hours ago, Jotari said:

Makes me wonder how a Thracia remake would be handled. Because the universal 20 stat cap really makes a difference in that game. You hit caps and rather early for some units. Along with the crusader scrolls it kind of makes natural growth rates less important. As any unit trained to 20/20 will probably cap all their relevant stats, which are equal to any other unit that excels in that field. The only difference is how early/available the character is and what prf/supports/movement stars/weird EP crit mechanic they have. Even without the growth inflation, if Thracia just bumped up the stat caps by 10 points then it'd make the game feel very different. Thracia is almost the anti stats game, which would make it really weird in a stat inflated world.

I would hope they either keep the stats the same for an FE5 remake, or adjust the game around whatever changes they do make. Because that game really is balanced around those 20 stat caps.

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

And also the solution would be to just deflate caps again. Control the economy. Print less stats. Would casual new fans really dislike the game if they stopped seeing such big numbers? I really hope our entertainment media isn't that basic.

As incredibly lame as it is, big numbers tend to engage our brains more. For an RPG, feeling character progression is important, and it's more noticeable when numbers are bigger. Of course moderation is also key, or else Disgaea would have made every other strategy RPG obsolete. There's a balance to strike, and I feel like IS is struggling to find it.

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The less numbers you have, the less gradient you can use to balance. In a game whit 40 levels 20 point are very litle ad fuck up the progression in a number of way. For example, there is no argument in favor of 20/20 instead of 10/20 while in theory both should be good, or is extremely difficult to make proper enemies when the gwoth rates are so low that any character can get screwed. Which is why Thracia rd units are a joke and Marty can kill 6 of them any enemy phase. 

Imo the game should still gravitate toward caps, because they are fixed and predictable, and pls class speciphic caps, because there is no point into specialists if the paladin can get 20 in their best stats, but should do so in a more growth oriented way, wich imo was really nailed only in RD and New Mystery.

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On 8/20/2019 at 2:44 PM, timon said:

I don't doubt it, but promising to marry and live the rest of your life with someone (who says it back) and doing the same 5 seconds later with someone else is a bit much, you know?

Now, I'm the first to admit I have not seen all the supports in the game. But I have seen a lot of A supports, and I don't recall any of them explicitly stating that the pair involved were going to get married. The closest I got was Sylvain asking Dorothea out on a date and Catherine promising to maybe visit Dimitri in the capital so he could attempt to court her. Can you tell me which supports are talking about marriage in their A supports for Three Houses?

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1 hour ago, Hyper L said:

To balance it out of course.

And you'll notice if you apply the formula I suggested it won't change anything but make slow characters considerably stronger.

Characters like Felix will still be able to attack an enemy for +30 x 2 Damage, but then characters like Raphael will now do +60 x 1 to that same enemy, instead of just +30 x1.

Yeah, but where's the actual logic? Why would someone being faster make them weaker?

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1 hour ago, Slumber said:

I would hope they either keep the stats the same for an FE5 remake, or adjust the game around whatever changes they do make. Because that game really is balanced around those 20 stat caps.

As incredibly lame as it is, big numbers tend to engage our brains more. For an RPG, feeling character progression is important, and it's more noticeable when numbers are bigger. Of course moderation is also key, or else Disgaea would have made every other strategy RPG obsolete. There's a balance to strike, and I feel like IS is struggling to find it.

That's actually something I really like about the Paper Mario RPGs. They use really small numbers. You start off with 1 attack and end the game with 3, and that's a massive difference. If an enemy has just 1 defense, then they're a struggle to get by that requires breaking out special techniques. Really different to most RPGs where you deal thousands of points of damage after the first few hours.

Maybe SPD could work something like move. Instead of being a regular stat, it's tied to classes. For example, Swordmasters have 5 speed, armours have 1. You need just 1 point if speed to double. Maybe this would make speed more broken, but classes with lower speed could be balanced more consistently around it. Add in a miniscule growth rate like Thracia's move and speed wings as the equivalent of boots and you suddenly have a very valuable stat. Which in practice wouldn't actually be all that different to how speed world now. This would also add more bulkyness to enemy units as even if they're weak, you can't double with two units of the same class (without additional stuff, Darting Stance and Blow would be super useful skills). Not sure how well it'd work but I'd like to see it tried in one game at least. Actually it wouldn't be that hard to implement in hacking. Maybe an experiment to try.

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30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, but where's the actual logic? Why would someone being faster make them weaker?

Well why would someone being only 4 points faster than someone else allow them to attack twice?

If we're gonna argue logic, needing to be twice as fast would make much more sense AND be way more balanced gamewise.

We just don't want it that way cuz we barely would see the mechanic in action otherwise.

If you really need some immersive logic though, it could be something like: attacking faster means putting less weigh behind each of your swings.

Think a fast jab vs a slower but strong hook.

Edited by Hyper L
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I would just vastly strengthen the generic combat arts instead to sort of accomplish the same goal. Ignoring the ones that give extra range or effectiveness, allowing the simple "does extra damage" ones to reliably do double the damage of a normal swing would effectively eliminate the need to double. Felix can choose to do 2x30 normal swings or 1x50 combat art, and Raphael gets to do 1x60 combat art every turn.

Another possible tweak would be to make it so you can't be doubled on retaliation when using a combat art.

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48 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

I would just vastly strengthen the generic combat arts instead to sort of accomplish the same goal. Ignoring the ones that give extra range or effectiveness, allowing the simple "does extra damage" ones to reliably do double the damage of a normal swing would effectively eliminate the need to double. Felix can choose to do 2x30 normal swings or 1x50 combat art, and Raphael gets to do 1x60 combat art every turn.

Another possible tweak would be to make it so you can't be doubled on retaliation when using a combat art.

How would you balance that without breaking early and mid game though? Unless you change the way Combat Arts add damage from additive to multiplicative.

Or make so all basic arts double Atk as a innate quality, just like all basic gambits rattle by default.

Edited by Hyper L
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2 minutes ago, Hyper L said:

How would you balance that without breaking early and mid game though. Unless you change the way Combat Arts add damage from additive to multiplicative.

Or make so all basic arts doubles damage as a inate quality, just like all basic gambits rattle by default.

Multiplicative works, or you can just have multiple ranks of the relevant Combat Arts, just like how we already have multiple ranks of the Prowess skills already where the old one is automatically replaced when you learn a new one.

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