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Icelerate

Is Roy dumb for fighting Etruria?

Is Roy smart?   

10 members have voted

  1. 1. Was this a wise course of action?

    • Yes, because the gambit pays off.
    • No, too risky.


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He sent a message to Cecelia about the conflict in the Western Isles but decided to take action before even getting a response. Bare in mind that Lycia is only being protected by Etruria as the Lycian army is outside of the Lycian territories. 

Spoiler

Roy:
“Is there anything we can do?”

Merlinus:
“That would be difficult… We would be turning against the Etrurian court. I can’t say that would be a good idea when we were sent here under their orders.”

Roy:
“I’ll send a messenger to General Cecilia and see what she has to say. We probably shouldn’t do anything too risky right now…”

(A Soldier appears)

Soldier:
“Master Roy! We have received a report that the lord of this area has dispatched troops to attack the villages and hunt down the remnants of the rebels!”

Merlinus:
“What! Master Roy, should we…?”

Roy:
“Well, I guess we don’t have time to wait for General Cecilia’s opinion… I want to help the people here. Even if it means that we’ll be going against Eturia…”

Merlinus:
“Master Roy…”

Roy:
“Let’s fight! So we can be proud when we return to Lycia!”

 

If it wasn't for the upcoming Civil War, which Roy did not know about, there'd be nothing preventing Etruria from sending its regular army to deal with the lowly rebels and Lycian traitors in the Western Isles while Bern swoops in and captures Lycia. 

Roy can't even use the excuse that Cecilia would have their back because back in chapter 9, Cecilia said that her power in helping Roy is limited. 

Spoiler

Cecilia:
“Roy, I’m sorry I couldn’t get you out of this mess…”

Roy:
“No, it’s not your fault, General Cecilia. Please don’t worry about it.”

Cecilia:
“I can’t believe how Lycia is being treated like servants. Even within the Etrurian court, many are voicing their discontent with the advisor.”

Roy:
“Advisor? It wasn’t the king who had made the decision to send Lycia to the Western Isles?”

Cecilia:
“No. Advisor Roartz was working with Lord Arcard, the man in charge of the mining operation on the Western Isles. They made the decision without consulting the king.”

Roy:
“How can they do that?”

Cecilia:
“…Do you remember last year’s tragedy in Etruria?”

Roy:
“Of course. Etruria’s next heir, Prince Mildain, suddenly passed away last year.”

Cecilia:
“Right.”

Roy:
“I never had the honor to meet him, but I’ve been told that he was a very bright individual.”

Cecilia:
“Yes… If the prince were alive, he wouldn’t have allowed this to happen. The prince’s death was more than King Mordred could bear. The shock was so great that he never fully recovered from it. Today, he always seems as if he’s in a different world, not paying attention to anything that’s going on in his country. Roartz took advantage of this. Now, he’s the one in charge of what goes on in the court. Ever since then, he made sure to keep us, the Three Etrurian Generals, away from the king unless there was a great emergency.”

Roy:
“But what about the time when you came to our aid in Ostia?”

Cecilia:
“That was an exception. Things happened to work out because Percival worked with me. But this time…”

 

Also, he didn't even bother investigating whether the rebel army was actually good before deciding to help them. And no, the occupation being bad doesn't imply the rebels are good. 

Also, I don't get Roy and Elphin's logic. If anything Merlinus was on point. Why would securing Lycia not be the most prudent course of action? Roy's father was sick and didn't have an army stationed in Lycia while Cecilia's is ranked below the King and hence her army could easily be forced to turn against Lycia if people ranked higher than Cecilia get pissed off at Roy's actions in Etruria. 

Spoiler

Elphin:
“Your country could be peril. Are you sure you want to be wasting your time on a little island like this?”

Merlinus:
“He’s right! If Bern wanted to get us away from Lycia so they could invade, then we must return at once…”

Roy:
“…I’m not going back.”

Merlinus:
“What!? Why!?”

Elphin:
“……”

Roy:
“Right now, it’s very difficult to judge what information is true and what is false. The worst thing to do is is to simply jump to information presented in front of you. Sure, I’m worried about Lycia…but my father is there, and General Cecilia also promised to take care of our land. But our army is the only one stationed on these islands.”

Merlinus:
“That’s true, but…”

Roy:
“If we just leave without fully clearing out the bandits, then what we did so far would all be a lie…”

Elphin:
“…I see you are blessed with a wise leader.”

Roy:
“What?”

Elphin:
“Master Roy, I am sorry that I tried you so.”

Merlinus:
“Tried us? So what you said was a lie!?”

Elphin:
“I have not lied. But, I did present the rumor in such a way that you would easily jump to it. But Master Roy kept his head. I feel that I would like to serve an individual like you. Master Roy, please count me among your ranks.”

 

I don't see the same Roy that the story and the fanbase try to portray as someone who is very smart. 

Edited by Icelerate

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It's like Cecilia said. The Etrurian court is divided on the matter. It was Roartz himself who called for the Lycian Army to the Western Isles, to the protest of a good chunk of the court. With Arcardo as the one who owns the mining operation of the Western Isles, it was likely Roy was banking that the rest of the court would find is suspicious the men Roartz sent to stamp out the bandits and rebels suddenly sided with the rebels... despite leaving Lycia vulnerable to Etrurian retaliation.

Considering Roartz and Arcardo launched their coup while Roy headed to Djuto (I'm taking in consideration the time it would take for the news to reach Roy, who recieved them after conquering Djuto), they were already fearing the worst. That the Lycian Army would expose thier actions and collution with Bern. Hence the timing of the uprising.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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What else was he supposed to do, lie down and accept his unofficial execution at the hands of the bandits? Because that's why his army was sent to the Western Isles: the corrupt half of Etruria wanted to take him out of the picture discreetly so that they could sell out to Bern with less opposition.

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Not to mention, in one of the routes, it's the Etrurian forces that attack him first.

Spoiler

Merlinus:
“Master Roy, troops are dispatching from the castle.”

Roy:
“What? Is there a bandit hideout around here?”

Merlinus:
“No, they seem to be after us!”

Roy:
“…What happened to the messenger?”

Merlinus:
“He hasn’t returned yet…which means…”

Roy:
“…What’s going on? Why is Nord attacking us?”

Merlinus:
“The enemy is advancing… Master Roy, what should we do?”

Roy:
“…I guess we’ll have to fight. Either way, we need to get to the castle. Then we might learn something…”

Merlinus:
“Yes. I suppose so.”

Roy:
“All right, everyone, we’re storming the castle! But don’t kill more than you have to.”

In the other, the only reason they didn't is because Roy acted first; but they were still going to attack the League:

Spoiler

Soldier:
“We have just received a message from the capital at Djuto! It says… ‘The Lycia Alliance Army is suspected of treachery against Etruria. They may be allied with the bandits. Capture them!'”

Zinc:
“Oh? Allied with the bandits? How ironic! They’re desperate to get rid of the Alliance Army to save their own hides…”

Soldier:
“What do you mean, my lord?”

Zinc:
“This is not the mainland. Might makes right here.”

Soldier:
“I’m not quite sure I understand…”

Considering Roy's act was a spur of the moment thing, the message departed from Djuto already with the intention to attack him first.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It's like Cecilia said. The Etrurian court is divided on the matter. It was Roartz himself who called for the Lycian Army to the Western Isles, to the protest of a good chunk of the court. With Arcardo as the one who owns the mining operation of the Western Isles, it was likely Roy was banking that the rest of the court would find is suspicious the men Roartz sent to stamp out the bandits and rebels suddenly sided with the rebels... despite leaving Lycia vulnerable to Etrurian retaliation.

Considering Roartz and Arcardo launched their coup while Roy headed to Djuto (I'm taking in consideration the time it would take for the news to reach Roy, who recieved them after conquering Djuto), they were already fearing the worst. That the Lycian Army would expose thier actions and collution with Bern. Hence the timing of the uprising.

The Etrurian court was divided on the matter of sending the Lycian Alliance army for help in fighting the bandits in the Western Isle. There is no guarantee they'd tolerate armed action without consent even if they sympathize with his and the citizen's plight. Armed action would probably turn away those on the fence onto Roartz and Arcardo's side. 

Spoiler

Cecilia:
“I can’t believe how Lycia is being treated like servants. Even within the Etrurian court, many are voicing their discontent with the advisor.”

 

I don't think Roy was banking on anything as his dialogue doesn't suggest that. It seems like he's fighting for pride and wanting to help the people if anything.

Spoiler

Roy:
“Well, I guess we don’t have time to wait for General Cecilia’s opinion… I want to help the people here. Even if it means that we’ll be going against Eturia…”

Merlinus:
“Master Roy…”

Roy:
“Let’s fight! So we can be proud when we return to Lycia!”

 

Even if Roy's plan was to sow unrest within Etruria, doing so would result in a civil war which would take even more lives so I highly doubt that was his plan. 

1 hour ago, X-Naut said:

What else was he supposed to do, lie down and accept his unofficial execution at the hands of the bandits? Because that's why his army was sent to the Western Isles: the corrupt half of Etruria wanted to take him out of the picture discreetly so that they could sell out to Bern with less opposition.

I'd say a better course of action was to fight defensively and retreat because conquering castles makes you suspicious of being the aggressor. 

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Not to mention, in one of the routes, it's the Etrurian forces that attack him first.

   Reveal hidden contents

Merlinus:
“Master Roy, troops are dispatching from the castle.”

Roy:
“What? Is there a bandit hideout around here?”

Merlinus:
“No, they seem to be after us!”

Roy:
“…What happened to the messenger?”

Merlinus:
“He hasn’t returned yet…which means…”

Roy:
“…What’s going on? Why is Nord attacking us?”

Merlinus:
“The enemy is advancing… Master Roy, what should we do?”

Roy:
“…I guess we’ll have to fight. Either way, we need to get to the castle. Then we might learn something…”

Merlinus:
“Yes. I suppose so.”

Roy:
“All right, everyone, we’re storming the castle! But don’t kill more than you have to.”

In the other, the only reason they didn't is because Roy acted first; but they were still going to attack the League:

  Hide contents

Soldier:
“We have just received a message from the capital at Djuto! It says… ‘The Lycia Alliance Army is suspected of treachery against Etruria. They may be allied with the bandits. Capture them!'”

Zinc:
“Oh? Allied with the bandits? How ironic! They’re desperate to get rid of the Alliance Army to save their own hides…”

Soldier:
“What do you mean, my lord?”

Zinc:
“This is not the mainland. Might makes right here.”

Soldier:
“I’m not quite sure I understand…”

Considering Roy's act was a spur of the moment thing, the message departed from Djuto already with the intention to attack him first.

Etruria may have attacked him first on the first route but he was trespassing on their territory and also conquered their castle which to me seems like something that the corrupt nobles can accuse him of aggression. 

But Roy didn't know they were going to attack first. 

Also once it became clear the plan was to eradicate the Lycian army in the Western Isles, why stay there? 

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3 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

The Etrurian court was divided on the matter of sending the Lycian Alliance army for help in fighting the bandits in the Western Isle. There is no guarantee they'd tolerate armed action without consent even if they sympathize with his and the citizen's plight. Armed action would probably turn away those on the fence onto Roartz and Arcardo's side. 

Even if Roy's plan was to sow unrest within Etruria, doing so would result in a civil war which would take even more lives so I highly doubt that was his plan. 

I'd say a better course of action was to fight defensively and retreat because conquering castles makes you suspicious of being the aggressor. 

They also objected Roartz acted without consulting the king.

Besides, as Roy says to Elphin:

Spoiler

Roy:
“Of course. As I said, we did what we felt was right. Although what we did is a sign of rebellion against Etruria, if the truth about these islands is made public, they will understand. I have sent a letter to a trustworthy member of the Etrurian court. If she takes the appropriate measures, I think we can tip the tables in our favor.”

He's quite willing to explain his actions... and he did. He still sends a letter to Cecilia.

6 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Etruria may have attacked him first on the first route but he was trespassing on their territory and also conquered their castle which to me seems like something that the corrupt nobles can accuse him of aggression. 

But Roy didn't know they were going to attack first. 

Also once it became clear the plan was to eradicate the Lycian army in the Western Isles, why stay there? 

He wasn't tresspassing. In fact:

Spoiler

Soldier:
“My lord!”

Nord:
“What is it?”

Soldier:
“A messenger from the Lycia Alliance Army is here.”

Nord:
“Ah, the army was sent here to clear out the bandits…”

Soldier:
“It seems that they are requesting passage to Mt Ebrakhm.”

Nord:
“…Lord Arcard did say to get rid of the Lycia Alliance Army while they were here… Hahaha… What a splendid chance to gain favor with Lord Arcard and earn a share of his riches! Dispatch our troops! Kill off the Lycia Alliance Army!”

Soldier:
“Yes, my lord. And the messenger?”

Nord:
“Kill him.”

He's quite willing to request permission to pass through. He's promptly attacked for his actions.

I already explained for the other route, Roy is determined to explain his actions.

He stays because he's not going to abandon the islanders to further oppression by the bandits and corrupt Etrurians. Also, officially, he's still on orders to eradicate the bandits. Him leaving means Etruria has no obligation to keep protecting Lycia, then. Roy's stuck in a Catch-22. Either he helps the people and rebels and risk the chance Etruria won't accept his reasons... or forfeits Etruria's protection and leaves Lycia at Bern's mercy. The former option still has a hope the Etrurian-Lycian partnership can survive. The latter doesn't.

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8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

They also objected Roartz acted without consulting the king.

 Besides, as Roy says to Elphin:

   Hide contents

 Roy:
“Of course. As I said, we did what we felt was right. Although what we did is a sign of rebellion against Etruria, if the truth about these islands is made public, they will understand. I have sent a letter to a trustworthy member of the Etrurian court. If she takes the appropriate measures, I think we can tip the tables in our favor.”

He's quite willing to explain his actions... and he did. He still sends a letter to Cecilia.

He wasn't tresspassing. In fact:

  Reveal hidden contents

Soldier:
“My lord!”

Nord:
“What is it?”

Soldier:
“A messenger from the Lycia Alliance Army is here.”

Nord:
“Ah, the army was sent here to clear out the bandits…”

Soldier:
“It seems that they are requesting passage to Mt Ebrakhm.”

Nord:
“…Lord Arcard did say to get rid of the Lycia Alliance Army while they were here… Hahaha… What a splendid chance to gain favor with Lord Arcard and earn a share of his riches! Dispatch our troops! Kill off the Lycia Alliance Army!”

Soldier:
“Yes, my lord. And the messenger?”

Nord:
“Kill him.”

He's quite willing to request permission to pass through. He's promptly attacked for his actions.

I already explained for the other route, Roy is determined to explain his actions.

He stays because he's not going to abandon the islanders to further oppression by the bandits and corrupt Etrurians. Also, officially, he's still on orders to eradicate the bandits. Him leaving means Etruria has no obligation to keep protecting Lycia, then. Roy's stuck in a Catch-22. Either he helps the people and rebels and risk the chance Etruria won't accept his reasons... or forfeits Etruria's protection and leaves Lycia at Bern's mercy. The former option still has a hope the Etrurian-Lycian partnership can survive. The latter doesn't.

None of this shows that the Etrurian nobility would tolerate armed action. Roy sent a message to Cecilia, not to everyone else. The fact he started fighting prior to making sure the message is sent across could piss the government off because he ended up acting on his own. And this could be used as propaganda by Roartz that the Lycian Alliance are up to no good. 

Roy being willing to explain his actions does not mean the Etrurian nobles wants to hear his reasoning. 

Whether or not he was literally trespassing doesn't matter because to an outside observer who isn't privy to the events, it sure looks like he is. 

Roy being determined to explain his actions doesn't mean people, other than Cecilia will take him seriously. Not to mention how exactly is he supposed to be sure that he can explain his actions anyway. He's just saying they'll understand without taking into account what if they don't. 

That's an emotional reason, not a logical one. Him leaving means he can protect Lycia himself without incurring the wrath of Etruria. If Etruria is open to dialogue, they'd understand why he had to leave and continue supporting him but if Etruria is not open to dialogue, then he forfeits both Etruria and Lycia's protection of Lycia. 

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1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

None of this shows that the Etrurian nobility would tolerate armed action. Roy sent a message to Cecilia, not to everyone else. The fact he started fighting prior to making sure the message is sent across could piss the government off because he ended up acting on his own. And this could be used as propaganda by Roartz that the Lycian Alliance are up to no good. 

The thing is, we don't have the full picture. For all we know, there's already friction among the nobility/court over the condition of the Western Isles. We only know the friction between them and Roartz wanting to govern as if he was the king. Roy knows there are people in there who could understand, like Cecilia. His own integrity as a person won't let him wait. You'd rather want him to let the Etrurian forces kill the civilians while waiting for the court to answer? Keep in mind back in the day messages like that would takes days if not weeks. Best you hope is to have a network of Warp Staff users working as couriers.

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

Roy being willing to explain his actions does not mean the Etrurian nobles wants to hear his reasoning. 

Roy hopes they will. Besides, what do we know about how the court would act. We're in the dark as Roy is about it. We know Roartz and Arcardo would oppose, or that they'd rather launch the coup instead of convincing the Court to side with them over the Lycian Alliance's army "perceived" treachery. However, Roy doesn't.

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

Whether or not he was literally trespassing doesn't matter because to an outside observer who isn't privy to the events, it sure looks like he is. 

That same dialogue shows the Etrurian forces in the isles knew the Lycian Alliance Army would arrive to the islands and what they were sent to.

The path to Mt Ebkrakhm was watched over by a small castle in the valley. Roy sent a messenger to Nord, the castle owner, to be granted permission to pass through his land. Since the Lycia Alliance Army was there on an official mission from Etruria, they didn’t think that getting Nord’s support would be as difficult as it was…

Soldier:
“A messenger from the Lycia Alliance Army is here.”

Nord:
“Ah, the army was sent here to clear out the bandits…”

So then, who would be this outside observer? The people of the isles? The bandits? Since the Etrurian Army knows full well why they're there.

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

Roy being determined to explain his actions doesn't mean people, other than Cecilia will take him seriously. Not to mention how exactly is he supposed to be sure that he can explain his actions anyway. He's just saying they'll understand without taking into account what if they don't.  

Once again, you're making assumptions about the Etrurian Courts. Also, do remember that Roy spent a considerable amount of time in Etruria. He's not exactly an unknown. Especially while being under the tutelage of Cecilia, who is also no small fry within Etruria. Also, there's the time he spent leading the remmants of the Lycian Alliance Army against both the Bernese forces and the rebels within the League. If Roy had a stellar conduct while in Etruria, plus his actions in Lycia it would impact how people may react to his actions. Maybe we're just a bit too cynic in this day and age; but sometimes, it's easier to think someone had a good reason to commit an action so unlike them, than to think they went bonkers or were faking the whole time. Have some more optimism.

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

That's an emotional reason, not a logical one. Him leaving means he can protect Lycia himself without incurring the wrath of Etruria. If Etruria is open to dialogue, they'd understand why he had to leave and continue supporting him but if Etruria is not open to dialogue, then he forfeits both Etruria and Lycia's protection of Lycia. 

Well, Roy's human, not a robot. If he could protect Lycia himself he wouldn't have asked for help in the first place. The Lycian army got decimated, then the rebels in Laus, Thria, and Ostia only made it worse. Lycia doesn't have the men or means to defend against Bern. That's why it was agreed for Lycia to come under Etruria's protection. Him leaving also leaves a bad reputation. If they're open to dialogue then it's best to explain the attrocities commited in the isles, not leave while still allowing them to be committed. Again, it takes time for news to travel. If you're fine with the attrocities continuing so you can have the all-clear... well, better hope you're never in a position where you need help; but no one wants to act because they need to wait for the permission.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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48 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The thing is, we don't have the full picture. For all we know, there's already friction among the nobility/court over the condition of the Western Isles. We only know the friction between them and Roartz wanting to govern as if he was the king. Roy knows there are people in there who could understand, like Cecilia. His own integrity as a person won't let him wait. You'd rather want him to let the Etrurian forces kill the civilians while waiting for the court to answer? Keep in mind back in the day messages like that would takes days if not weeks. Best you hope is to have a network of Warp Staff users working as couriers.

Exactly, if we don't have the full picture, it is irrational to assume the best case scenario. I'd rather he exercises caution and patience instead of getting involved in the internal affairs of another country.

48 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Roy hopes they will. Besides, what do we know about how the court would act. We're in the dark as Roy is about it. We know Roartz and Arcardo would oppose, or that they'd rather launch the coup instead of convincing the Court to side with them over the Lycian Alliance's army "perceived" treachery. However, Roy doesn't.

If Roy is in the dark about how they will act, putting trust in hope seems like a fool's endeavor. 

48 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That same dialogue shows the Etrurian forces in the isles knew the Lycian Alliance Army would arrive to the islands and what they were sent to.

 The path to Mt Ebkrakhm was watched over by a small castle in the valley. Roy sent a messenger to Nord, the castle owner, to be granted permission to pass through his land. Since the Lycia Alliance Army was there on an official mission from Etruria, they didn’t think that getting Nord’s support would be as difficult as it was…

 Soldier:
“A messenger from the Lycia Alliance Army is here.”

Nord:
 “Ah, the army was sent here to clear out the bandits…”

So then, who would be this outside observer? The people of the isles? The bandits? Since the Etrurian Army knows full well why they're there.

Outside observer means the Etrurian government and its elements. They know Roy is at the Western Isles to get rid of bandits, not to take over government held castles. Taking over territory from the Etrurian forces is something that can be seen to be trespassing on the internal affairs of a nation even if you're allowed to go after bandits.

48 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Once again, you're making assumptions about the Etrurian Courts. Also, do remember that Roy spent a considerable amount of time in Etruria. He's not exactly an unknown. Especially while being under the tutelage of Cecilia, who is also no small fry within Etruria. Also, there's the time he spent leading the remmants of the Lycian Alliance Army against both the Bernese forces and the rebels within the League. If Roy had a stellar conduct while in Etruria, plus his actions in Lycia it would impact how people may react to his actions. Maybe we're just a bit too cynic in this day and age; but sometimes, it's easier to think someone had a good reason to commit an action so unlike them, than to think they went bonkers or were faking the whole time. Have some more optimism.

Where have I made assumptions about the Eturian courts? If Roy knew the full picture about what goes on in Etrurian courts, he wouldn't need Cecilia to tell him about the situation in the country. 

Blind optimism is foolish. Anyway, in most countries if you take up arms against official police/government/army, world leaders, especially internal politicians, are going to condemn the acts regardless if they were tyrannical. They'll just call you a terrorist. 

Quote

Well, Roy's human, not a robot. If he could protect Lycia himself he wouldn't have asked for help in the first place. The Lycian army got decimated, then the rebels in Laus, Thria, and Ostia only made it worse. Lycia doesn't have the men or means to defend against Bern. That's why it was agreed for Lycia to come under Etruria's protection. Him leaving also leaves a bad reputation. If they're open to dialogue then it's best to explain the attrocities commited in the isles, not leave while still allowing them to be committed. Again, it takes time for news to travel. If you're fine with the attrocities continuing so you can have the all-clear... well, better hope you're never in a position where you need help; but no one wants to act because they need to wait for the permission.

 

Him leaving doesn't leave as bad as a reputation as killing Etrurian troops. If Roy wants to do dialogue, he should wait, not go on the offensive because the chance of dialogue succeeding is better if you do a ceasefire. 

By going to war with Etruria instead of sending troops back to Lycia, Lycia is completely undefended whereas with Lycian troops back in Lycia, it is no longer completely undefended. 

Depends, if the situation may worsen, it's best to exercise patience. 

 

Edited by Icelerate

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37 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Exactly, if we don't have the full picture, it is irrational to assume the best case scenario. I'd rather he exercises caution and patience instead of getting involved in the internal affairs of another country.

It's also irrational to assume the worst. He's already involved. Etruria itself asked Lycia to get involved in their own affairs with the bandit problem. Roy has as much right to. If that means addressing a crime even if it's not the one he was asked to, so be it. Thing is, Roy doesn't really have the time or luxury. He either lets Etruria attack him or have civilians killed when he's in a position to stop it. It's easy for us to judge when we're just observers... whole different would be if were personally there.

37 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

If Roy is in the dark about how they will act, putting trust in hope seems like fool's endeavor. 

Sometimes, that's what it takes for things to get better. We're human.

37 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Outside observer means the Etrurian government and its elements. They know Roy is at the Western Isles to get rid of bandits, not to take over government held castles. Taking over territory from the Etrurian forces is something that can be seen to be trespassing on the internal affairs of a nation even if you're allowed to go after bandits.

They aren't. They were the ones to send the Lycian Army in the first place.

He had to take the castle otherwise face a continious pursuit of the Etrurian forces willing to attack him. It's foolish to give his back in this situation. Besides, he made sure to "not kill more than necessary". Unless Nord sent a message to the mainland that the Lycian Alliance were the aggressors, it's moot. Roy can be the one first sending the message they got attacked; and has enough POW's to interrogate. Someone is bound to crack and confess.

37 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Where have I made assumptions about the Eturian courts? If Roy knew the full picture about what goes on in Etrurian courts, he wouldn't need Cecilia to tell him about the situation in the country. 

Blind optimism is foolish. Anyway, in most countries if you take up arms against official police/government/army, world leaders, especially internal politicians, are going to condemn the acts regardless if they were tyrannical. They'll just call you a terrorist. 

You keep writing the courts would side against Roy and don't believe any of his explanations.

Blind anything is foolish. Roy is anything but. Maybe on Earth; but Elibe isn't on Earth. They don't have to see things like we do. Besides, even on Earth, governments label to their interests. Consider Syria, where many countries support(ed?) either the non-ISIS rebel factions or the Syrian government. As the trope goes, "Your terrorists are our freedom fighters".

37 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Him leaving doesn't leave as bad as a reputation as killing Etrurian troops. If Roy wants to do dialogue, he should wait, not go on the offensive because the chance of dialogue succeeding is better if you do a ceasefire. 

By going to war with Etruria instead of sending troops back to Lycia, Lycia is completely undefended whereas with Lycian troops back in Lycia, it is no longer completely undefended. 

Depends, if the situation will worsen, it's best to exercise patience. 

Once again, it's easy to judge when you're just an observer. Waiting means people bieng killed. Roy isn't foolish or dumb wanting to stop an attrocity to be commited. Besides, if anything, it calls attention to the situation of the Western Isles.

Etruria still has to deal with Bern. That's why the Lycian Army got sent. BEcause it means Etruria doesn't have to tie their own troops away. The Etrurians not tied to Roartz and Arcado's scheme would rather avoid something that would distract them, since they'd know Bern would capitalize on this. Roy likely knows this.

 Patience is a luxury. Sometimes it's best acting now and face the consequence than being overly cautious and face even worse consequences because of it.

---

Okay, it's finished.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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42 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It's also irrational to assume the worst. He's already involved. Etruria itself asked Lycia to get involved in their own affairs with the bandit problem. Roy has as much right to. If that means addressing a crime even if it's not the one he was asked to, so be it. Thing is, Roy doesn't really have the time or luxury. He either lets Etruria attack him or have civilians killed when he's in a position to stop it. It's easy for us to judge when we're just observers... whole different would be if were personally there.

I never assumed the worst. You're the one who keeps on making assumptions. I simply said he should be more cautious to avoid the worst case scenario. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

Spoiler
Quote
5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

it was likely Roy was banking that the rest of the court would find is suspicious the men Roartz sent to stamp out the bandits and rebels suddenly sided with the rebels... despite leaving Lycia vulnerable to Etrurian retaliation

 

 

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

For all we know, there's already friction among the nobility/court over the condition of the Western Isles

 

 

Etruria asked to get rid of bandits, not soldiers. Big difference. I don't care if Roy has the right to or not to. Though you're the one who said he does have the right to take action so prove it.

49 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Sometimes, that's what it takes for things to get better. We're human.

But that has nothing to do with his action not being dumb. 

50 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

They aren't. They were the ones to send the Lycian Army in the first place.

Are you misinterpreting my posts on purpose? 

Initially this is what I claimed:

3 hours ago, Icelerate said:
Spoiler

 

Whether or not he was literally trespassing doesn't matter because to an outside observer who isn't privy to the events, it sure looks like he is. 


 

 

The Etrurian government and its elements in this context are those who were not present for the battle hence they are by definition the outsiders due to not being direct observers of what transpired. 

53 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

He had to take the castle otherwise face a continious pursuit of the Etrurian forces willing to attack him. It's foolish to give his back in this situation. Besides, he made sure to "not kill more than necessary". Unless Nord sent a message to the mainland that the Lycian Alliance were the aggressors, it's moot. Roy can be the one first sending the message they got attacked; and has enough POW's to interrogate. Someone is bound to crack and confess.

Retreating is always an option. Why would the Etrurians believe his message? Arucard can simply accuse him of lying and accusing those of taking Roy as potential traitors, silencing opposition. 

55 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You keep writing the courts would side against Roy and don't believe any of his explanations.

 Blind anything is foolish. Roy is anything but. Maybe on Earth; but Elibe isn't on Earth. They don't have to see things like we do. Besides, even on Earth, governments label to their interests. Consider Syria, where many countries support(ed?) either the non-ISIS rebel factions or the Syrian government. As the trope goes, "Your terrorists are our freedom fighters".

I have not wrote that the courts would definitely side against Roy. I said there is a good chance for this to be the case because Roy is a lowly Lycian and Etrurians see themselves as superior so I can easily see many Etrurians not trust Roy because he's Lycian. Nationalism is a scary thing. 

Yes, Roy is blindly optimistic. He rushed to the defense of the rebels without even investigating whether they are just or not.  

Etruria is a superpower, Syria is not. Good luck starting a rebellion in China, Russia or US without unanimous international condemnation. Thanks for bringing up Syria. Many people ended up getting fooled by ISIS and ended up fighting for oppressors because of impatience. Many of these people took a lot more time to do research on ISIS than Roy did on the rebels in the Western Isles. 

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Once again, it's easy to judge when you're just an observer. Waiting means people bieng killed. Roy isn't foolish or dumb wanting to stop an attrocity to be commited. Besides, if anything, it calls attention to the situation of the Western Isles.

 Etruria still has to deal with Bern. That's why the Lycian Army got sent. BEcause it means Etruria doesn't have to tie their own troops away. The Etrurians not tied to Roartz and Arcado's scheme would rather avoid something that would distract them, since they'd know Bern would capitalize on this. Roy likely knows this.

 Patience is a luxury. Sometimes it's best acting now and face the consequence than being overly cautious and face even worse consequences because of it.

 ---

 Okay, it's finished.

I know I'm just an observer and would probably fuck up even more than Roy in the real setting. He's not foolish or dumb for that reason but to do it hastily while overlooking the fact that Lycia could be in potential danger is worse. 

No, the Lycian army got sent away so that the corrupt nobles can blame them for collaborating with the bandits. 

Spoiler

Soldier:
“We have just received a message from the capital at Djuto! It says… ‘The Lycia Alliance Army is suspected of treachery against Etruria. They may be allied with the bandits. Capture them!'”

Zinc:
“Oh? Allied with the bandits? How ironic! They’re desperate to get rid of the Alliance Army to save their own hides…”

Those Etrurians not allied with Bern would probably not want Bern to take over Lycia because it would empower Bern so I don't see them revoking protection to Lycia if Lycia abandons the Western Isles. On the other hand, if the Lycian Alliance ends up in conflict with the Etrurian occupation, that is more likely to get them to allow Bern to take over Lycia. 

Quote

 Okay, it's finished.

What is finished? 

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I feel like if there's going to be a poll, it should at least not be so blatantly in favor of one answer over another. 

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5 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I never assumed the worst. You're the one who keeps on making assumptions. I simply said he should be more cautious to avoid the worst case scenario. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

It's the act of bringing the possibility of it happening, not the assumption. You're defaulting to the bad outcome, no matter the probabilities. I would also point out the way you worded the poll as it is currently. It is wrong when inaction and tardy responses leads to worse attrocities.

The US did that with the Slavery Question, wanting to be cautious to avoid the worst case scenario of civil war. Then look what happened. A civil war happened anyway; and in a worse shape than if they had simply addressed the Slavery Question in the 1780's. Ain't the only example. UK and France also tried being cautious in the 1930's when it came to Germany, to avoid the worst case scenario of another Great War happening. Surprise, surprise, it led to another World War. Had they acted years earlier, then WWII is either avoided or is much less destructive.

7 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Etruria asked to get rid of bandits, not soldiers. Big difference. I don't care if Roy has the right to or not to. Though you're the one who said he does have the right to take action so prove it.

It's not avoid killing soldiers. Roy had to act in self-defense, or let civilians be killed. The same civilians he's meant to protect by getting rid of the bandits. He would be ignoring the very people he's meant to protect. That's what gives Roy the right to act. He's following the spirit of his orders, not the letter. Then again, what the Etrurian forces were doing makes them no different from the bandits, perhaps even worse. That makes them fall in the category of "Bandits", as it were.

27 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

But that has nothing to do with his action not being dumb. 

It does. If things get better, then it was a smart action. An action being dumb or smart is only truly labeled once we see the consequences. THe consequences point it was smart. It's the power of hindsight.

29 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Are you misinterpreting my posts on purpose? 

Initially this is what I claimed:

The Etrurian government and its elements in this context are those who were not present for the battle hence they are by definition the outsiders due to not being direct observers of what transpired. 

Tsk, once again jumping to a bad outcome. Anyway, your initial point was:

Quote

Etruria may have attacked him first on the first route but he was trespassing on their territory and also conquered their castle which to me seems like something that the corrupt nobles can accuse him of aggression. 

My point was that Roy being near Nord's land wasn't trespassing since him being on the islands was on orders of the Etrurian Government; and he wasn't told where he could or couldn't wander to. The taking of the castle is not relevant to that part of the argument since Nord's aggression wasn't because Roy was conquering the castle. It once again boils down to how the non-pro Roartz members of the Court would think once they hear the news; and how the news would be worded. If Nord sent message first he's being attacked by the Lycians, you'd have people questioning if it's true, since Roy's previous record showed no insubordination to Etruria, specially with Lycia depending on them for protection. If Roy sends message first, it can lead to an inquiry about apparent misconduct. After all, what could drive the Court members to think Roy's lying?

42 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Retreating is always an option. Why would the Etrurians believe his message? Arucard can simply accuse him of lying and accusing those of taking Roy as potential traitors, silencing opposition. 

It depends on how viable escaping could be. Roy and his army have lots of things to bring with them to operate as an army. The enemy doesn't, as they're station in a castle. Short of abandoning most of their things, they'd be too slow to escape. Even if they do, they'd just left themselves more vulnerable in case the Etrurians attack them again. It'd be foolish to escape.

Why would they wouldn't? What makes Arcado more trustworthy? The Court already don't see themselves eye to eye. They don't like how Roartz is running the place; and Arcado is in cahoots with him. They're politicians. If Arcado is quick to accuse Roy, it's a sign something's up. We know Cecilia would vouch for Roy. It's all a matter of who they trust more, Arcado or Cecilia.

55 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I have not wrote that the courts would definitely side against Roy. I said there is a good chance for this to be the case because Roy is a lowly Lycian and Etrurians see themselves as superior so I can easily see many Etrurians not trust Roy because he's Lycian. Nationalism is a scary thing. 

Yes, Roy is blindly optimistic. He rushed to the defense of the rebels without even investigating whether they are just or not.  

Etruria is a superpower, Syria is not. Good luck starting a rebellion in China, Russia or US without unanimous international condemnation. Thanks for bringing up Syria. Many people ended up getting fooled by ISIS and ended up fighting for oppressors because of impatience. Many of these people took a lot more time to do research on ISIS than Roy did on the rebels in the Western Isles. 

Then you assume what the court thinks of Roy. There's no indication that Lycia's status compared to Etruria means the former are thought as untrusworthy by the latter. To think that already means placing an assumption on the probable acts of the Etrurian Court. The only things we know of the Court is that they consider to their interest to have Lycia under their protection as part of their Balance of Power with Bern, hence why Cecilia could convince the King and Court to answer Roy's call for help; and that a good deal of the court disapproved the action to send the Lycian Army to the Western Isles. Roy knows this. The court isn't an individual entity. He knows Cecilia would trust him to give him the benefit of doubt. So if one can, so can others. All so the islanders can be helped by stamping out the corruption. Thing is, they can't be helped if they're dead, hence he acts to protect them. It's all for nought to wait to help them if they need the help now.

Also, he didn't rushed to help the rebels. In both routes he helps the villagers. In both cases, the Etrurian troops are willing to kill entire villagers to search one single rebel. In Route A, it's Echidna alone who is in the area, in Route B it's Elphin. That's why he can get General Klein to support him. He's protecting the people. He himself also tells Elphin he won't let the civilians suffer.

What does it matter if a country is a superpower or not? It's still countries choosing sides depending on their interests. That's why I mentioned the non-ISIS rebels. They fought against both ISIS and the government; and had the support of several countries. Just like how other countries instead sided with the government.

So were the American revolutionaries terrorists for rebeling against the British government? Was any rebel group against Nazi-occupied Europe terrorists? Like I said, it's all subjective labels.

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

I know I'm just an observer and would probably fuck up even more than Roy in the real setting. He's not foolish or dumb for that reason but to do it hastily while overlooking the fact that Lycia could be in potential danger is worse. 

No, the Lycian army got sent away so that the corrupt nobles can blame them for collaborating with the bandits. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Soldier:
“We have just received a message from the capital at Djuto! It says… ‘The Lycia Alliance Army is suspected of treachery against Etruria. They may be allied with the bandits. Capture them!'”

Zinc:
“Oh? Allied with the bandits? How ironic! They’re desperate to get rid of the Alliance Army to save their own hides…”

Those Etrurians not allied with Bern would probably not want Bern to take over Lycia because it would empower Bern so I don't see them revoking protection to Lycia if Lycia abandons the Western Isles. On the other hand, if the Lycian Alliance ends up in conflict with the Etrurian occupation, that is more likely to get them to allow Bern to take over Lycia. 

As I mentioned before, Etruria considers Lycia too important of an asset. 

That's Roartz and Arcado's reasoning. Officially, they're sent since a good chunk of the Etrurian Army is in Lycia and the borders with Bern-occupied Sacae and Illia; and since it's supposedly only bandits that need to be dealt with, it's best to send the lesser Lycian army than having your best troops away from where Bern could attack you.

It's not about what Etruria thinks, it's about what Roy thinks. Abandoning the islands means they're no better than Bern or the corrupt Etrurians. Since it's in Etruria's best interests to be the ones with sway over Lycia, which Roys knows, he considers the risk worth doing to protect those who can't protect themselves.

---

Ah, it's that I accidentally posted before finishing the post. I put a note about it. I guess you just didn't saw it before I changed it once I finished the post.

Also, do change your poll to be more neutral.

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