3 Houses Tier List, HM, LTC vs Efficiency any Route.

[OCDbox]

I feel like the other tier list topic is inconsistent and people are just posting different things without clear criteria:

Assume NG, students are ranked by assuming you started with the specific house (addition re-tiering for if you recruit from a different house TBD), investment is not penalized unless it's a weakness or characters join later. Maps ideally played with lowest possible turns/efficiently. Paralogues and Quest maps are okay.

Disclosure: I've played GD and BL route and currently working on a LTC playing GD again. Here are some turncounts for reference about how quickly we can potential play maps with the right resources within a single playthrough.

Pro:4/  Ch 1: 6/  Ch 2: 8/  Ch 3: 5/  Ch 4: 2/  Ch 5: 1/  Ch 6: 1/  Ch 7: 4/  Ch 8: 2/ Ch 9: 2/  Ch 10 - 13: 1/ Ch 14: 3/ Ch 15 - 21: 1/  Ch 22: 2 

(WIP) Paralogues: Lorenz: 1; Sylvain: 2; Ingrid: 2; Felix: 1; Raph/Ignatz: 1; Sothis: 1; Manuela/Hanneman: 1;

(WIP) Quests: Ch 2 practice: 3 turns; Ch 5 quests: 2/2; Ch 7 quests: 1/1; Ch 8 quest: 1;

S tier:

Byleth (F>M)

Claude

Edelgard

Dimitri

Lysithea

A Tier: 

Dancer

Hilda

Petra

Leonie

Ingrid

Linhardt

A- Tier:

Felix

Ferdinand

Sylvain

B Tier:

Shamir

Catherine

Seteth

Dorothea

Marianne

Mercedes

C tier:

Manuela

Flayn

Raphael

Ignatz

Hubert

Annette

D tier:

Bernie

Ashe

Cyril

Caspar

Dedue

Lorenz

E tier:

Hanneman

Gilbert

Alois

Edited September 6, 2019 by OCDbox
Updates

[SSJDennis]

Wow. Hubert is incredibly low. He is much better then Linhardt, who only gets utility upon reaching A(!) in Faith. In the mean time him and Lysithea can nuke things with Dark Spikes, even when Linhardt gets Warp, his range will be low ish. Even then, how do you explain the large gap between Linhardt and other Warp user Manuela? Can't be availability only. Should be on top of B at least. Other mages like Annette aren't all that different from Linhardt either, did you get a really blessed one in your house? 

Mercedes should be a bit higher, but meh.

[Tharne]

20 minutes ago, SSJDennis said:

Wow. Hubert is incredibly low. He is much better then Linhardt, who only gets utility upon reaching A(!) in Faith. In the mean time him and Lysithea can nuke things with Dark Spikes, even when Linhardt gets Warp, his range will be low ish. Even then, how do you explain the large gap between Linhardt and other Warp user Manuela? Can't be availability only. Should be on top of B at least. Other mages like Annette aren't all that different from Linhardt either, did you get a really blessed one in your house? 

Mercedes should be a bit higher, but meh.

Talking about Linhardt gaining Warp at A Faith but then talking about Dark Spikes on Hubert which is A Reason.

Manuela doesn't get Physic and has less Mag than Lin. Annette doesn't get Physic, her only good thing is Excalibur/Double Rally but she's slow and extremely frail. Not having Physic makes you a subpar Healing unit.

 

Chapter turncount : Chapter 5: 2 turns ? How is this possible though.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Tharne

[KnightOfNohr]

Is there any reason why F!Byleth is better, other than free Sylvain?

[Tharne]

Just now, KnightOfNohr said:

Is there any reason why F!Byleth is better, other than free Sylvain?

Darting Blow from PegKnight, I presume.

[OCDbox]

Second post for reasoning:

This is mostly NOT theorycrafting which is where a lot of the misinformation can come from. Heavy armor skills are all really good which most people ignore. Being able to save turns somehow is valued heavily WARP, SMITE, RESCUE, Flying, Mounted, etc. SMITE DOES save turns so optionally being able to reach B rank armor early on is a boon for saving turns (it's essentially a 3 ranged rescue on a flying unit). Flying and riding are easy to reach since you just need a D rank for anyone with minimal investment if there isn't a weakness (Reposition is also viable, but difficult to reach for anyone except lysithea).

Optimal classes for everyone is Wyvern, Falcon, or bow knight for physical units; Magic units go Gremory, Bishop, or Dark/Holy Knight.

S tier:

Byleth has good bases to snowball easily early game. Gains EXP fast. F>M due to early pegasus. Can easily abuse faculty training once professor level gets high

Lords:

Claude can be a flier with no investment whatsoever although its not a bad idea to work on axes and flying.  He also gets pass..

Edelgard CAN go Pegasus>Wyvern (literally just prioritize her goals to be Lances and Flying with Flying group tasks and then back to axes when she hits pegasus); she has galeforce for a couple of chapters late. She can also invest in heavy armor for SMITE.

Dimitri can easily be a bow knight. He's not as crazy as the other two tho.

Lysithea: Warp at B. Literally saves over 10 turns just between chapter 5 and 6. Easy to invest magic into more range. She as a crest and can take extra range if you want.

A tier:

Hilda can easily go Pegasus> Wyvern. Good bases and good growths. She can reach B rank Armor for SMITE eventually and -3LB at C as well as a easy Defense bonus. Her personal skill is also really good. Neutral to bows means she has good 1-2 range options.

Petra can easily go Pegasus > Wyvern. She has a strength to bows means she has good 1-2 range options. Good bases and good growths.

Ingrid is a viable Pegasus > Falcon Knight. Neutral to bows means she has good 1-2 range options. Good speed/defense growth, mediocre strength and bases. Has rally Magic.

Leonie is viable as a Pegasus OR Bow knight with no investment at all. Strength in bows and riding and lances means she needs no investment and can prioritize authority early on.

Lynhardt: Warp and Physics. Warp is possible for chapter 6 with a lot of investment. Physics makes him a good healer. He as a crest and can take extra range if you want.

A- tier:

Ferdinand: Good bases and growths. Can go Cav> bow knight or Wyvern. Viable to learn smite.

Felix: Good bases and growths. Can go Cav > bow knight easily if you set goals early. Weakness to authority hurts.

Sylvain: Good bases and growths.  Weakness to bows hurts. Can go Cav> Dark Knight or Wyvern. He gets Physics as a dark knight and 1-2 range if that's your jam.

B tier:

Catherine: Great bases. Similar to A- and A tier, just arrives later and will be delayed in getting a mount. Should go Pegasus> Falcon easily.

Shamir: Great bases. Similar to A- and A tier, just arrives later and will be delayed in getting a mount. Should go Pegasus> Falcon or Cav>Bow Knight.

Seteth: He's in the right class, good bases, good combat skills. He joins late though and misses out on contributing for 12 chapters though.

Healers are hard to place but...

Dorothea: Best spell list: physics, meteor, Thoron, Agnes Arrow. No crest.

Mercedes: Best healing list: has Physics and Fortify. Mediocre reason list. Has a crest for more range options.

Marianne: Middle ground: Physics, silence, Thoron. Has a crest for more range options.

B- tier:

Ashe: Bad bases, shakier growths. Hard to snowball. viable for Wyvern or bow knight tho. Deadeye is a nice bonus. Personal skill might as well not exist.

Bernie: Bad bases, shakier growths. Hard to snowball. Viable for bow knight. Has a good personal and crest, but unreliable. Deadeye is a nice bonus. Gets rescue for some reason, but probably not worth it.

Ignatz: Bad bases, shakier growths. Hard to snowball. Viable bow knight or dark knight if that's your jam (gets physics). Good personal. Gets Rally speed for early benchmarks.

Cyril: Base bases. Okay growths. Comes late and thus delayed for getting on a mount. Viable bow knight or Wyvern. Really good bow combat art early.

Raphael: Okay bases, bad speed growth. Viable for Wyvern which fixes his speed. Contributes Rally strength early and SMITE +Canto late (3 other viable users). 

Caspar: Okay growths, meh bases. Viable for Wyvern. No other utility. Bow and authority weakness really hurts (I think he should probably be a C+ character TBH)

Lorenz: Shakey bases and growths. Has to go Cav early to stay viable. Has a crest.

Hubert: Good early game. Falls off once everyone is mounted. Kind of viable as Cav midgame (maybe). Rally magic okayish. No crest. Weak in faith and bad list.

Flayn: Rescue range of almost 4 can come online almost right away. Hard to promote to holy/dark knight, but possible. Has a crest for range options if you want.

Manuela: Joins kind of late has warp, but not yet online. Misses out on chapter 5 and 6. No crest. No Physics.

C Tier:

Dedue: Solid early game. Weak in both mounts ruin him. He also has availability issues.

Annette: bad spell list. Rally is okay early on. Not viable on a mount. Suboptimal growths.

Hanneman: joins late, good reason list, bad faith list. Bad growths.

D Tier:

Gilbert: joins late in a bad class and cannot offer smite.

Alois: joins late in a bad class and cannot offer smite.

Edited August 18, 2019 by OCDbox

[OCDbox]

21 minutes ago, Tharne said:

Talking about Linhardt gaining Warp at A Faith but then talking about Dark Spikes on Hubert which is A Reason.

Manuela doesn't get Physic and has less Mag than Lin. Annette doesn't get Physic, her only good thing is Excalibur/Double Rally but she's slow and extremely frail. Not having Physic makes you a subpar Healing unit.

 

Chapter turncount : Chapter 5: 2 turns ? How is this possible though.

Get Lysithea to warp. Warp+stride anyone with 5-7 movement (benchmarks aren't too high with rally strength available through Raphael or Annette) with a mace to 1RKO boss. Everyone's movement gets reset after boss dies. Lure beast boss in on turn 1 and then gang up with all your units.

[Tharne]

3 minutes ago, OCDbox said:

Get Lysithea to warp. Warp+stride anyone with 5-7 movement (benchmarks aren't too high with rally strength available through Raphael or Annette) with a mace to 1RKO boss. Everyone's movement gets reset after boss dies. Lure beast boss in on turn 1 and then gang up with all your units.

Doesn't that make 3 turns though ? 1 turn Miklan, 1 turn lure beast, 1 turn kill beast.

And getting to B by chapter 5 is possible ? o_O Wouldn't that make you behind on Reason by a lot ?

Edited August 18, 2019 by Tharne

[OCDbox]

1 minute ago, Tharne said:

Doesn't that make 3 turns though ? 1 turn Miklan, 1 turn lure beast, 1 turn kill beast.

And getting to B by chapter 5 is possible ? o_O Wouldn't that make you behind on Reason by a lot ?

It's technically 3 turns, but the game counts it as 2.

B is definitely possible by week 2 into chapter 5. I've done it 3 times now. It is definitely an investment since she has to set to pure faith for a few chapters and tutored a lot, but I don't consider the investments to be bad because the opportunity cost for investments in this game are really low (you get like 4 teach session by D+ professor level), gardening is free even if unreliable.

Lysithea hits C in time for Mage (usually chapter 6) just through attacking and occasionally getting her goal set to Reason and faith. Dark spikes will come in time and there's other ways to blow up horses. After hitting B faith she can switch back and focus on reason/authority a bit more.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm generally not a fan of prioritising LTC over everything, it kinda overrates the importance of things like Warp IMO. I do like discussions centred around fast playstyles, though, since going really slow makes everyone good. That said this list looks very solid and well-thought out to me anyway, there's nothing I can point to as obviously wrong.

The closest things I have to quibbles:

-I feel like Anette and Hubert are maybe a touch a touch underrated just because I have a reasonably high level of baseline respect for any earlygame mage in this game (magic is quite a bit better than physicals before they start falling behind on move IMO) but it's be worth a tier at most in both their cases, and tbh probably only a fraction of one.

-Cyril feels like he belongs a tier lower, bad bases + being behind on supports/optimization compared to units you've had at the start and not really offering anything they don't feels more like C to me.

[leesangstar10]

2 hours ago, OCDbox said:

IMO criteria for this list: Assume NG, students are ranked by assuming you recruit them from the house, investment is not penalized unless it's a weakness or characters join late. Maps ideally played with lowest possible turns/efficiently. Paralogues and Quest maps are okay.

I feel like NG+ kinda trivializes this tier list because anybody can become a wyvern lord and have certain skills/art like smite and such, unless we are ignoring using renown to level up skills.

[OCDbox]

38 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm generally not a fan of prioritising LTC over everything, it kinda overrates the importance of things like Warp IMO. I do like discussions centred around fast playstyles, though, since going really slow makes everyone good. That said this list looks very solid and well-thought out to me anyway, there's nothing I can point to as obviously wrong.

The closest things I have to quibbles:

-I feel like Anette and Hubert are maybe a touch a touch underrated just because I have a reasonably high level of baseline respect for any earlygame mage in this game (magic is quite a bit better than physicals before they start falling behind on move IMO) but it's be worth a tier at most in both their cases, and tbh probably only a fraction of one.

-Cyril feels like he belongs a tier lower, bad bases + being behind on supports/optimization compared to units you've had at the start and not really offering anything they don't feels more like C to me.

Thanks! I understand where your coming from. It's just without lunatic mode, and high customization it's hard to create meaningful differences between characters because a lot of people reach 1RKO vs 2RKO in practice even with minimal investment. 

I understand where you're coming from. I rated Hubert (and lorenz) higher due to their viability as Cavaliers during mid-game (maybe with frozen lance at C+ lance) although they don't offer much else, I guess maybe Annette can go pegasus and eventually Wyvern with Lightning Axe at C+ axe...they are probably are very similar and probably over worse then the characters at B- though since they have to go into suboptimal classes to contribute...

I think I can agree with the reasoning on Cyril. He's probably better long term, but doesn't contribute early on at all when you have fewer resources and needs to wait a few chapters for a mount. I'm not sure yet, but he probably worse than the other B- characters. I also think he's better than the mages who have to be forced to be in physical classes.

Annette C >C+

Hubert B- >C+

Lorenz B- > C+ 

Cyril B- > C+

6 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

I feel like NG+ kinda trivializes this tier list because anybody can become a wyvern lord and have certain skills/art like smite and such, unless we are ignoring using renown to level up skills.

This is a new game tier list not NG+. NG+ does indeed trivialize everything.

Edited August 18, 2019 by OCDbox

[leesangstar10]

2 minutes ago, OCDbox said:

This is a new game tier list not NG+. NG+ does indeed trivialize everything.

Okay thank you, it makes this tier list makes much more sense. I do think that for LTC we need separate tier list for each route though, but ig that is for later. 

Additionally, I think you should adjust the criteria rules like a limit of number of skill you can invest in. Cause right now I can have a unit like Ingrid(has no weakness) get all the skills possible by ranking it all to S with no penalty, which obv isn't reasonable. 

[timon]

I'm not LTC fan, but aren't you really overrating Cavalier? Sure it gives you Riding, but it cripples your speed, I'm not sure it's a good option if you're going for maximum turn efficiency, you're going to lose out on a lot of doubling with that -10%. You're going to hit requirements anyways with just goals/instruct.

[OCDbox]

1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Okay thank you, it makes this tier list makes much more sense. I do think that for LTC we need separate tier list for each route though, but ig that is for later. 

Additionally, I think you should adjust the criteria rules like a limit of number of skill you can invest in. Cause right now I can have a unit like Ingrid(has no weakness) get all the skills possible by ranking it all to S with no penalty, which obv isn't reasonable. 

In practice:

I'm not sure anyone ever will hit S before the game is done, even in a strength. This is personal experience though. 

I think C in any neutral stat is reasonable though. I think C bows is pretty important for those without a weakness and sometimes C armor.

 

1 hour ago, timon said:

I'm not LTC fan, but aren't you really overrating Cavalier? Sure it gives you Riding, but it cripples your speed, I'm not sure it's a good option if you're going for maximum turn efficiency, you're going to lose out on a lot of doubling with that -10%. You're going to hit requirements anyways with just goals/instruct.

As long as people hit benchmarks: 1 less speed over 10 levels can be corrected easily. Hard mode doesn't have benchmarks high enough for this to matter; who knows about lunatic. Canto is really good and getting to enemies sooner is overall better from either an efficiency or LTC standpoint. 7 move versus 4/5 move makes a huge difference in what can happen per turn. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by OCDbox

[redlight]

37 minutes ago, timon said:

I'm not LTC fan, but aren't you really overrating Cavalier? Sure it gives you Riding, but it cripples your speed, I'm not sure it's a good option if you're going for maximum turn efficiency, you're going to lose out on a lot of doubling with that -10%. You're going to hit requirements anyways with just goals/instruct.

Not an issue as hard really isn't all that difficult with it's speed benchmarks as well as it being an incredibly miniscule demerit. Also, you move towards the end goal faster with canto. But most importantly is it's move stat.

Lysithea is overrated combat wise. I'm not saying she's bad, just not as good as people make her out to be. Yes, she comes with warp which really does save you a lot of trouble, but I want to focus on her combat aspect in this case. She has good range with the range boosting hero relic, but the mage classline quite honestly sucks with it's move and the hero relic manages to salvages it. However let me ask you something. Not factoring in warp, should she be up there with units that can kill enemies PP and damage ones EP as well as being able to move after performing an action towards some kind of destination? Her bulk is really shit so we can scratch out EP and she doesn't have canto. Of course we can factor in warping at the end, but one shotting things isn't that impressive if that takes up your entire action for the turn and you can't really do anything else until the start of the next turn unlike say someone that's a cav or flier. What irks me tho is that her biggest claim to fame is oneshotting a dude who you don't actually need to fight for the first 3 times (killing Solon in the 3rd encounter is too easy) you encounter him in the first act. And all for what? Dark Seals?

I legitimately want to ask people what makes Claude as good as Dimitri or Edelgard pre-timeskip? But then again both acts are seemingly considered for tiering however Dimitri does seem to have the biggest edge pre-timeskip and is still carries his weight as a Paladin post-timeskip with quite possibly the best combination of offense and bulk of the 3 lords not to mention evasiveness (you might scoff at the full health requirement, but there are numerous ways which are easily handed to you that can stack evasion) added onto his bulkiness if he wasn't sturdy enough already.

[OCDbox]

18 minutes ago, redlight said:

Not an issue as hard really isn't all that difficult with it's speed benchmarks as well as it being an incredibly miniscule demerit. Also, you move towards the end goal faster with canto. But most importantly is it's move stat.

Lysithea is overrated combat wise. I'm not saying she's bad, just not as good as people make her out to be. Yes, she comes with warp which really does save you a lot of trouble, but I want to focus on her combat aspect in this case. She has good range with the range boosting hero relic, but the mage classline quite honestly sucks with it's move and the hero relic manages to salvages it. However let me ask you something. Not factoring in warp, should she be up there with units that can kill enemies PP and damage ones EP as well as being able to move after performing an action towards some kind of destination? Her bulk is really shit so we can scratch out EP and she doesn't have canto. Of course we can factor in warping at the end, but one shotting things isn't that impressive if that takes up your entire action for the turn and you can't really do anything else until the start of the next turn unlike say someone that's a cav or flier. What irks me tho is that her biggest claim to fame is oneshotting a dude who you don't actually need to fight for the first 3 times (killing Solon in the 3rd encounter is too easy) you encounter him in the first act. And all for what? Dark Seals?

 I legitimately want to ask people what makes Claude as good as Dimitri or Edelgard pre-timeskip? But then again both acts are seemingly considered for tiering however Dimitri does seem to have the biggest edge pre-timeskip and is still carries his weight as a Paladin post-timeskip with quite possibly the best combination of offense and bulk of the 3 lords not to mention evasiveness (you might scoff at the full health requirement, but there are numerous ways which are easily handed to you that can stack evasion) added onto his bulkiness if he wasn't sturdy enough already.

Regarding Lysithea, she primarily there for warp. Subjectively speaking Lorenz's relic seems to give her pavise very frequently, although I don't know actual the percentage of the time. Her enemy phase isn't completely terrible with Nosferatu which is pretty accurate in this game and eventually enemies start getting weighed down later as well with steel weapons. Her enemy phase is actually that terrible since she still gets 3RKOed earlygame/midgame with the right food items and battalion. 4 Movement is still bad though.

Claude is good because he reaches C bows early (like chapter 3) and then snowballs; he is the fastest person to reach 1RKO potential both for enemy phase and player phase on his route (besides Byleth) with acceptable durability. Then he flies and counters everything and is really good. His bulk/strength isn't that bad either, it gets the job done, flying lets him avoid stack as well if that floats your boat.

Edited August 18, 2019 by OCDbox

[Vorena]

1 hour ago, OCDbox said:

In practice:

I'm not sure anyone ever will hit S before the game is done, even in a strength. This is personal experience though. 

 I think C in any neutral stat is reasonable though. I think C bows is pretty important for those without a weakness and sometimes C armor.

Late game recruited units (Flayn, Faculty, other houses) I believe this would be difficult to do especially for any unit doing an odd route. Otherwise, any natural affinity started right at the start of the game will not have any issues really getting S rank. S+ is a different story, but at the same time there is hardly any value in going into S rank for any weapon as you get nothing from it usually. +10 crit is nothing amazing, but is helpful. +5 atk is given for free on nearly every advanced/mastered class.  

Its arguably better to just get to A+ to maximize hit/avoid/crit avoid, +1 mov, +30 avoid per wait, etc., then go directly into other stats such as C heavy armor, C bow, Authority, etc. 

[-Cynthia-]

I think Dimitri is more A tier than S tier. He has trouble transitioning into a flier due to the Axe weakness and Wyvern>Paladin due to speed as well as flight being very important. The other two Lords can easily fly and I'm not sure Dimitri brings anything else to the table to warrant S tier.

I think Catherine is more B-, I think she's worse than Seteth and Shamir. She has good if not better stats, but Snipers(and Bow Knight) and Wyverns are just way better classwise than Swordmaster. I guess you can make her an Assassin for 1 more Mov and 1-2 range, but that's still not as good. Getting to Falco requires a lot of high investment into skills she's not strong in so it would take a while.

[OCDbox]

32 minutes ago, -Cynthia- said:

I think Dimitri is more A tier than S tier. He has trouble transitioning into a flier due to the Axe weakness and Wyvern>Paladin due to speed as well as flight being very important. The other two Lords can easily fly and I'm not sure Dimitri brings anything else to the table to warrant S tier.

 I think Catherine is more B-, I think she's worse than Seteth and Shamir. She has good if not better stats, but Snipers(and Bow Knight) and Wyverns are just way better classwise than Swordmaster. I guess you can make her an Assassin for 1 more Mov and 1-2 range, but that's still not as good. Getting to Falco requires a lot of high investment into skills she's not strong in so it would take a while.

I can agree with Dimitri, although I do agree he's worse than your other lords. I wouldn't say Paladin is outright worse though. Bowknight isn't impossible for him to reach either, and he does level up quicker and snowball reaching promotion quicker. I think he does compare well to the other A tier characters, but his early/mid game is probably better before everyone becomes a Wyvern. 

Catherine can reach Pegasus knight benchmarks by chapter 7-8 giving you a 6 move flier with really good stats if you recruit her right away. Although Falco takes awhile, it's not the worst place to be in while waiting for it to happen. I think she's better than the B- tier characters though who run into issues getting the stats in the right places for benchmarks even in hard mode. I can see both sides to the argument though. Seteth is good, but he arrives 6 chapters later when she is still really strong. Her personal also seems solid considering you don't have enough flier battalions early on making her more bulky that most of the other pegasus knights you have available.

Shamir still has the same probably early on, but less so since she just needs D in riding.

I'm hesitant on moving either yet though, but I'm open to it. Anyone else have any opinions on this?

Edited August 18, 2019 by OCDbox

[Dark Holy Elf]

I kinda favour Dimitri in S, though I agree that he's probably the weakest of the three lords. But his attack is just monstrous and getting on a horse is still pretty good. He seemed extremely good at nuking otherwise dangerous bosses (especially with Atrocity), better than anyone else in BL. I guess you can make the case for Lysithea but she has all sorts of disadvantages compared to him on that route (starts gaining skills later, really wants you to recruit Lorenz as well, no horse until Level 30, less durability/enemy phase).

Are we sure Byleth is S incidentally? S/he is certainly solid but swords/fists aren't really the weapon you want to favour in this game. What build is generally suggested for him/her in efficient runs?

[OCDbox]

15 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I kinda favour Dimitri in S, though I agree that he's probably the weakest of the three lords. But his attack is just monstrous and getting on a horse is still pretty good. He seemed extremely good at nuking otherwise dangerous bosses (especially with Atrocity), better than anyone else in BL. I guess you can make the case for Lysithea but she has all sorts of disadvantages compared to him on that route (starts gaining skills later, really wants you to recruit Lorenz as well, no horse until Level 30, less durability/enemy phase).

Are we sure Byleth is S incidentally? S/he is certainly solid but swords/fists aren't really the weapon you want to favour in this game. What build is generally suggested for him/her in efficient runs?

I prioritized Pegasus with female Byleth and then C bows. After that went for Falcon Knight. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, that makes sense.

Is that really much better than, say, Petra or Hilda using a similar build? Byleth has slightly better bases (str mainly) but they have slightly better growths, they have 2/3 of the most relevant skills for flying builds (lance, axe, flying... though in fairness Byleth gets authority which they lack). I guess it depends if Byleth's separate monastery method of training is considered a pro or a con, and to what degree. And how good you consider the Sword of the Creator on jobs whose -faire lies elsewhere.

[OCDbox]

38 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Is that really much better than, say, Petra or Hilda using a similar build? Byleth has slightly better bases (str mainly) but they have slightly better growths, they have 2/3 of the most relevant skills for flying builds (lance, axe, flying... though in fairness Byleth gets authority which they lack). I guess it depends if Byleth's separate monastery method of training is considered a pro or a con, and to what degree. And how good you consider the Sword of the Creator on jobs whose -faire lies elsewhere.

Sword of creator is okay, but not game changing IMO. C rank bows and Iron bow+ is pretty much the same until it upgrades. Then it's a nice unique boon, but not vital or anything.

I would say the S tier and A units are very similarly viable eventually. Just S tier units start off better and require less work to start snowballing. Byleth's pseudo healing through his/her crest gives them good durability during enemy phase although not reliable per say which is something else unique to consider. Monastery method gets pretty ridiculous later as your professor level goes up to B and above. But since Byleth can use any other crest weapons it doesn't really matter which flair you end up with.

[redlight]

12 hours ago, OCDbox said:

Regarding Lysithea, she primarily there for warp. Subjectively speaking Lorenz's relic seems to give her pavise very frequently, although I don't know actual the percentage of the time. Her enemy phase isn't completely terrible with Nosferatu which is pretty accurate in this game and eventually enemies start getting weighed down later as well with steel weapons. Her enemy phase is actually that terrible since she still gets 3RKOed earlygame/midgame with the right food items and battalion. 4 Movement is still bad though.

Claude is good because he reaches C bows early (like chapter 3) and then snowballs; he is the fastest person to reach 1RKO potential both for enemy phase and player phase on his route (besides Byleth) with acceptable durability. Then he flies and counters everything and is really good. His bulk/strength isn't that bad either, it gets the job done, flying lets him avoid stack as well if that floats your boat.

I was trying to give spotlight more on her combat utility than her Warp since it's blown way out of proportions, but she definitely can make a lot of maps much easier so in terms of LTCing/being efficient I can see her being S tier with Warp.

It does? Still, her bulk is way too shaky to justify even gambling with Pavise up until I guess you use defense focused battalions.

Problem with Nosferatu is that it's so heavy that even Lysithea's garbage strength won't salvage the weight alleviation and I'm incredibly worried about her bulk as is. She can alleviate this I guess with a battalion that has a massive def boost, but you can only start getting those around midgame and you've probably already focused on black and dark magic to some point in the story.

What is Claude's recommended intermediate class? I might have been left out in conversations, but I'm honestly drawing a blank.