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3 Houses Tier List, HM, LTC vs Efficiency any Route.

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All characters are rated assuming they start in the player's house, so that shouldn't matter. Though of course it means Sylvain is a tempting pickup for Eagles and Deer playthroughs.

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Some known turncounts for GD no crossrecruit, yes paralogues and merchant quests, not mine. I make no claim as to their reliability. To my understanding people aren’t really going full low turn mentality bc the rng is too much especially in monastery.

Prologue can be 4 turns if aggroing the boss early and trading the iron bow around. 5 can be 1 turn, again not sure reliability.

Of later chapters 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 can all be 1 turns. 

8 and 9 are 2 turns.14 is a 3 turn (warp+stride the npc).

We also think GD 22 can be a 1 turn with a 73 mag gremory Lysithea (not that unreasonable with gardening) but to my knowledge it hasn’t been tested.  

I think op is more optimized in quite a number of the other chapters, especially certain routs.

(edit: ah it has been posted https://twitter.com/BoomKrash/status/1163498922460905472 . This was a test run so routs are not that optimized particularly C7 and Sylvain. I believe Aggro did a Sylvain 2 turn in BL so that's possible.)

23 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm generally not a fan of prioritising LTC over everything, it kinda overrates the importance of things like Warp IMO. I do like discussions centred around fast playstyles, though, since going really slow makes everyone good. That said this list looks very solid and well-thought out to me anyway, there's nothing I can point to as obviously wrong.

I don’t like pure LTC either for tiering but I think you’re underrating warp. It’s hard to objectively value stuff like warp and flying, relative to combat potential, except by hard metrics that involve stuff like turncount. For which warp has humongous value in chapters like 5 and 6. (Admittedly, otoh, here many other maps are doable in 1-3 turns even without warp, it’s not even the single thing that breaks the game). It’s also possible to reliably get up to absurd numbers like 64 mag+ 4 rally + 4 cooking for 18 warp range later, seemingly without greenhouse rigging. 

19 hours ago, OCDbox said:

I can agree with Dimitri, although I do agree he's worse than your other lords. I wouldn't say Paladin is outright worse though. Bowknight isn't impossible for him to reach either, and he does level up quicker and snowball reaching promotion quicker. I think he does compare well to the other A tier characters, but his early/mid game is probably better before everyone becomes a Wyvern. 

Catherine can reach Pegasus knight benchmarks by chapter 7-8 giving you a 6 move flier with really good stats if you recruit her right away. Although Falco takes awhile, it's not the worst place to be in while waiting for it to happen. I think she's better than the B- tier characters though who run into issues getting the stats in the right places for benchmarks even in hard mode. I can see both sides to the argument though. Seteth is good, but he arrives 6 chapters later when she is still really strong. Her personal also seems solid considering you don't have enough flier battalions early on making her more bulky that most of the other pegasus knights you have available.

Shamir still has the same probably early on, but less so since she just needs D in riding.

I'm hesitant on moving either yet though, but I'm open to it. Anyone else have any opinions on this?

It’s a little harder for Dimitri to go wyvern or bow knight since he misses instruction c13-17. 

Due to great bases, A bows, close counter and near instant Pegasus, Shamir contributes nicely toward a number of rout paralogues and quest battles. Additionally she can do stuff like 2 turn chapter 8, since Solon has a 1-2 range gambit and 1-3 range spell, a sniper at 3 range easily onerounds him on ep2 (requires 30 atk, 11 as).

Catherine theoretically could go Pegasus but it takes much longer and she’d be using swords/lances. Swordmaster also has like no niche and anyone can use the Thunderbrand for bosskills.

19 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Are we sure Byleth is S incidentally? S/he is certainly solid but swords/fists aren't really the weapon you want to favour in this game. What build is generally suggested for him/her in efficient runs?

For realtime efficiency: basically a solo in sword classes->their unique class. Want to move as few units as possible, crazy bases help, plus Sword of Creator gets story repairs and rest is the fastest. Byleth gets some help postskip as you also have the lord since they get promoted bases and are autoleveled to 20 (so you can end up with insane things like 31 str 34 spd lvl 20 Claude in chapter 13).

For turncount efficiency: Pegasus(->Wyvern)->Falcon/Wyvern. You can get it pretty smoothly with faculty instruction. The base str and extra exp from the personal skill makes them the best flier. Incidentally that fact that yeah it’s true other combat units are in the same vicinity of combat potential as Byleth means Lysithea is arguably the best character in the game. 

Edited by XeKr

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5 hours ago, XeKr said:

Some known turncounts for GD no crossrecruit, yes paralogues and merchant quests, not mine. I make no claim as to their reliability. To my understanding people aren’t really going full low turn mentality bc the rng is too much especially in monastery.

Prologue can be 4 turns if aggroing the boss early and trading the iron bow around. 5 can be 1 turn, again not sure reliability.

I think chapter 5 doable 1 turn now that I think about it. It might rely on killer weapon critical hits though. I'm not sure. I only had Sylvain, Leonie, Byleth and Claude at intermediate at that point so it's hard to say for sure it's doable.

I'm not sure how to aggro the boss in prologue. I'll have to fiddle around with it.

5 hours ago, XeKr said:

Of later chapters 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 can all be 1 turns. 

8 and 9 are 2 turns.14 is a 3 turn (warp+stride the npc).

We also think GD 22 can be a 1 turn with a 73 mag gremory Lysithea (not that unreasonable with gardening) but to my knowledge it hasn’t been tested.  

I think op is more optimized in quite a number of the other chapters, especially certain routs.

(edit: ah it has been posted https://twitter.com/BoomKrash/status/1163498922460905472 . This was a test run so routs are not that optimized particularly C7 and Sylvain. I believe Aggro did a Sylvain 2 turn in BL so that's possible.)

Sylvain is indeed 2 turns, but I'm not sure it's reliable if doing it right away.

5 hours ago, XeKr said:

I don’t like pure LTC either for tiering but I think you’re underrating warp. It’s hard to objectively value stuff like warp and flying, relative to combat potential, except by hard metrics that involve stuff like turncount. For which warp has humongous value in chapters like 5 and 6. (Admittedly, otoh, here many other maps are doable in 1-3 turns even without warp, it’s not even the single thing that breaks the game). It’s also possible to reliably get up to absurd numbers like 64 mag+ 4 rally + 4 cooking for 18 warp range later, seemingly without greenhouse rigging. 

It’s a little harder for Dimitri to go wyvern or bow knight since he misses instruction c13-17. 

Due to great bases, A bows, close counter and near instant Pegasus, Shamir contributes nicely toward a number of rout paralogues and quest battles. Additionally she can do stuff like 2 turn chapter 8, since Solon has a 1-2 range gambit and 1-3 range spell, a sniper at 3 range easily onerounds him on ep2 (requires 30 atk, 11 as).

That's true enough, do you think Shamir should move up a tier? 

5 hours ago, XeKr said:

Catherine theoretically could go Pegasus but it takes much longer and she’d be using swords/lances. Swordmaster also has like no niche and anyone can use the Thunderbrand for bosskills.

True, but I don't think she should go below her current tier. She can be set into essentially, Seteth you can get much earlier. I'm not sure the people below her compare favorably.

 

-FYI addressing some earlier questions: positions within tiers are unordered at this point, it's just alphabetical...

-Claude usually goes fighter-->Brigand/Cav/Archer -->Wyvern (pre skip)-->Unique Wyvern classes (post skip)

 

A question I have: is it possible to do Annette's paralouge on Golden Deer if you recruit her and get her C support with Gilbert pretimeskip?

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57 minutes ago, OCDbox said:

A question I have: is it possible to do Annette's paralouge on Golden Deer if you recruit her and get her C support with Gilbert pretimeskip?

Pretty sure it is impossible to get the C-support since you can't ask for mission assistance from Gilbert. Maybe it is possible if you bring Annette to the map that Gilbert first appears, but I am pretty sure you can't earn support points from green units. Even if it was possible it is going to make ur turn count worse. Not worth the effort at all.

Personally think she should be bottom tier since she isn't good any part of the game and she has terrible move. Dedue is at least good early game and falls off a lot later. 

 

Personally I think Lorenz should be a bit higher imo because his relic kinda fixes the movement problem all mages have, but idk maybe his shakey growths do hold him back a lot. Idk I just think he should have at least a tier higher than Hubert.

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1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Pretty sure it is impossible to get the C-support since you can't ask for mission assistance from Gilbert. Maybe it is possible if you bring Annette to the map that Gilbert first appears, but I am pretty sure you can't earn support points from green units. Even if it was possible it is going to make ur turn count worse. Not worth the effort at all.

Nevermind, it probably is impossible. Gilbert doesn't show up as being supportable in anyone's list in GD route. I was hoping it was a simply checkpoint and you can bypass a code checkpoint somehow if you do enough meals with Annette and Gilbert. 

Quote

Personally think she should be bottom tier since she isn't good any part of the game and she has terrible move. Dedue is at least good early game and falls off a lot later. 

 

Personally I think Lorenz should be a bit higher imo because his relic kinda fixes the movement problem all mages have, but idk maybe his shakey growths do hold him back a lot. Idk I just think he should have at least a tier higher than Hubert.

 

14 hours ago, you_equipped_socks said:

List seems really solid the only change i would make is putting Hubert in B- tier.

I mean Annette, Lorenz, and Hubert are mostly there as the mages with bad spell lists and neutral riding/flying proficiency for a viable lategame post level 30. I'm not sure yet how to value them. They literally really struggle to kill anything if they aren't mages (frozen lance/thunder axe stop one shotting things very quickly). I mean the other mages at least offer Physics, warp, rescue, or fortify and most are strong in both faith and reason. They all feel similar and worse than the weak earlygame archers who at least offer something useful on a horse while still remaining viable attackers (though still have terrible durability even for hard mode).

Edited by OCDbox

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Would not Bernadetta be above Ashe by a slight amount? Their growth rates are damn identical apart from the fact that Ashe gets 15% more luck and 5% more resistance. However, her personal skill selection is way better than Ashe's as her budding talent in riding grants her Pass and not being at full health grants an extra +5 dmg. Granted you hav to rig taking that damage at some point, but with doubling its hard to pass up free +10 damage especially early on where no unit is getting something like lancefaire, bow faire, etc. until lv 20.

Edited by Vorena

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Is it really useful to rank students only by assuming they started in your house? Students don't exist in a vacuum; If one of your students is bad, you should be looking to recruit another to replace them. To do this, you have to compare your student in your house to a student who hasn't been in your house for some period of time.

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Here's a question I'm wondering about the warp users. If you were doing a BL playthrough. You would need to recruit someone to get warp or be stuck with Maneula with her lackluster magic stat. Should you recruit Linhardt or Lysithea? I would say recruit Linhardt because Lysithea has E rank faith when you recruit her. Linhardt would have C rank faith. So he would get warp faster than her unless I'm severely underestimating mastermind. You still want both of them for sure

 

As for boss killing most bosses are very weak. There's only a few exceptions like the death knight and the final boss of each route. I assume you don't need much investment to kill a lot of bosses. 

Edited by PPPPPPP270

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1 hour ago, Vitezen said:

Is it really useful to rank students only by assuming they started in your house? Students don't exist in a vacuum; If one of your students is bad, you should be looking to recruit another to replace them. To do this, you have to compare your student in your house to a student who hasn't been in your house for some period of time.

I mean how you train your Byleth will vary person to person so it seems more fair and make the whole rating less complicated. For example, say you want your Byleth to become a wyvern lord, then any magic users' availability is going to get worse. 

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Also a lot of students get screwed by late recruitment because their default weapon rank priority is not in the right place.

For example, late recruiting Lysithea makes her considerably worse because she doesn't train Faith by default.

On the other hand, late recruiting Leonie is okay since I believe her primary weapon ranks put her on a reasonable path to being a Bow Knight, even if you only get her around chapter 9 or so.

Edited by Silly

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I think a "recruited student tier list" might look a bit different than the ones we've been talking about so far because of their default weapon growths. I would generally suggest keeping the two lists entirely separate; there's value in seeing both though. Since the general takeaway advice would be to consider replacing some of the lower characters on the standard tier list with some of the higher characters on the recruitable student tier list, depending on the player's needs.

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2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I think a "recruited student tier list" might look a bit different than the ones we've been talking about so far because of their default weapon growths. I would generally suggest keeping the two lists entirely separate; there's value in seeing both though. Since the general takeaway advice would be to consider replacing some of the lower characters on the standard tier list with some of the higher characters on the recruitable student tier list, depending on the player's needs.

 

3 hours ago, Silly said:

Also a lot of students get screwed by late recruitment because their default weapon rank priority is not in the right place.

For example, late recruiting Lysithea makes her considerably worse because she doesn't train Faith by default.

On the other hand, late recruiting Leonie is okay since I believe her primary weapon ranks put her on a reasonable path to being a Bow Knight, even if you only get her around chapter 9 or so.

That makes sense. I think Lysithea, Felix, Ashe, Ignatz, Raphael are hit pretty hard by this and would maybe move down a tier? But if you work toward getting a B rank quickly you can probably get them by chapter 5.

I'm not sure if the list would change THAT much though. Lysithea maybe to A. Felix maybe to B (basically Catherine level of stats with wrong growths). Ashe, Ignatz, Raphael, Caspar since they basically become Cyril level of not being useful--maybe C+.

19 hours ago, Verve said:

I made an example vid for how to 4 turn the prologue

Re: your list, it looks good from a GD standpoint. Very envious of your turn counts because I'm doing BE and warp comes out noticeably later

That makes sense. I understand now that aggroing requires all the enemies to be defeated by player phase 3. I redid the prologue with a slight alteration to give Byleth an extra kill that makes sense. 

I think chapter 5 should be doable with the movement battlions like lure to move the boss closer.

Edited by OCDbox

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On 8/19/2019 at 6:52 AM, redlight said:

I was trying to give spotlight more on her combat utility than her Warp since it's blown way out of proportions, but she definitely can make a lot of maps much easier so in terms of LTCing/being efficient I can see her being S tier with Warp.

 It does? Still, her bulk is way too shaky to justify even gambling with Pavise up until I guess you use defense focused battalions.

Problem with Nosferatu is that it's so heavy that even Lysithea's garbage strength won't salvage the weight alleviation and I'm incredibly worried about her bulk as is. She can alleviate this I guess with a battalion that has a massive def boost, but you can only start getting those around midgame and you've probably already focused on black and dark magic to some point in the story.

With Thyrsus she has the equivalent attack range of 8, which is the same as a Pegasus Knight with ranged capabilities. Non-mages can't get this, so it's fair to include as an advantage for your most potent nuking mage.

She can survive on Enemy Phase. As mentioned she gets pseudo Pavise and she's often one-shotting back so not too reliably getting doubled. And that's if she's involved in EP at all. The benefit of the Thyrsus that makes it so OP is that it gives her effective attack range without putting her actual body in harm. She can still close in close enough to enemies to stay in the action with the rest of your team, but stays far enough back to avoid getting hit by straggling survivors or advancing hordes. She's not baiting enemies or canto-ing forward, but not all 10 of your units need to be able to bait. Since canto isn't really combat anyways, if you bring it up that's more than offset when then considering warp.

Lastly, her spell list is just bonkers in combat. The reason she one-shots so often is that she has spells effective against: Monsters, Cavalry, and (essentially) high res users, and 2 of those are at only 'C' rank. And obviously a mage is very good against low res enemies. So she's good against low res enemies, high res enemies, cavalry, AND monsters. That leaves... nobody. MAYBE high res dodgetanks like Pegasus/Falcon Knights since Aura is only 70 hit, but her Dex is top tier so her accuracy against Hard mode dodgetanks isn't really a problem.

She also has Proficiency in Authority, so that just makes her more OP by 2nd half of the game when she can focus on that after getting Warp and Dark Spikes. Also, the huge attack range comes in handy when enemies are behind walls, on a different path, etc. She gets to 9 attack range (at S reason) pretty easily due to her personal skill as well, so she's still on par with the movement of Mastery classes.

I don't know if she'd be S tier without warp, but at least A for me. If you said she couldn't have Thyrsus AND warp, she'd be much lower. As then the movement becomes a real hindrance. 

Edited by ra2bk

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17 hours ago, Vorena said:

Would not Bernadetta be above Ashe by a slight amount? Their growth rates are damn identical apart from the fact that Ashe gets 15% more luck and 5% more resistance. However, her personal skill selection is way better than Ashe's as her budding talent in riding grants her Pass and not being at full health grants an extra +5 dmg. Granted you hav to rig taking that damage at some point, but with doubling its hard to pass up free +10 damage especially early on where no unit is getting something like lancefaire, bow faire, etc. until lv 20.

BTW characters within tiers were just alphabetized, not ordered by strength. I'm working on ordering characters within tiers now.

I've now reordered it within tiers to fine tune it now.

Controversially, I put Dedue higher because he can function as a Cav (with SMITE) and maybe Paladin someday? You can start since day 1 at least; D riding/C lances is definitely achieveable by chapter 5 when everyone is promoting. Bows are neutral for him as well so C is doable pretty quickly. I feel like it's overall better than the mages with bad spell lists.

Edited by OCDbox

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On 8/19/2019 at 6:52 AM, redlight said:

I was trying to give spotlight more on her combat utility than her Warp since it's blown way out of proportions, but she definitely can make a lot of maps much easier so in terms of LTCing/being efficient I can see her being S tier with Warp.

It does? Still, her bulk is way too shaky to justify even gambling with Pavise up until I guess you use defense focused battalions.

Problem with Nosferatu is that it's so heavy that even Lysithea's garbage strength won't salvage the weight alleviation and I'm incredibly worried about her bulk as is. She can alleviate this I guess with a battalion that has a massive def boost, but you can only start getting those around midgame and you've probably already focused on black and dark magic to some point in the story.

I agree Lysithea's combat is over-rated, its the memes that make people think she is way better than she really is. When you play the other routes and other mages its pretty clear every mage can accomplish what she does combat wise. Annette, Hubert, Dorothea, Hanneman and Lorenz all are very strong and serve the same purpose as her. And using Thyrsus on her is such a waste, since the other half of its effect (Aegis and Pavise) won't save her most of the time. Lorenz, an already tanky and strong mage, uses that extra defence from Thyrsus much more efficiently, and actually becomes a tank Dark Knight.

 

Warp is still very useful utility wise, so that still make her one of the better utility units.

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The issue is that even with a Thrysus mage is that your effective attack range is still worse than higher move units.

On turn 1 you can move 4 squares and attack 4 tiles away, so your effective range is 8. This matches a pegasus with a bow (though pegasus is more mobile due to no terrain penalties) and cavalier (though not cavalier with a bow), and is better than foot units at intermediate tier. So the first turn is fine.

The second turn, she moves 4 squares and can attack 4 tiles away, so her effective range over two turns is 12 tiles. This ties normal foot units with 2 range (such as archers), and starts losing to pegasus and cavalier by a noticeable amount (pegasus gets 12 move unrestricted by terrain plus its attack range, cav gets 14 move plus attack range).

By the third turn, mounts are really far ahead of you, and if your mounted units have been doing their job properly your mage shouldn't really be in range to attack people beyond this turn.

This gets worse at level 20, since paladins have 8 move and wyverns have 7 move and are not genderlocked, meaning they are much more readily available than pegasi were at level 10.

Mages can have good combat in the first two turns or so, but if the map is large (and there are a lot of large maps) then past that they will sometimes struggle to find targets.

-----------------------------------

A lot of this is moot if you just warp and bosskill on turn 1 though. But on maps that take longer, or if you dont play absolute LTC, then you will run into this issue.

Edited by Silly

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2 hours ago, OCDbox said:

I think chapter 5 should be doable with the movement battlions like lure to move the boss closer.

If you don't have warp by this point you can instead use Bernadetta/Ashe to aggro Miklan over the wall with Deadeye. This obviously still takes significantly longer than just warp skipping, but it cuts considerable time off the map, because instead of having to walk alllllll the way around with your slow units, Miklan will start coming to you as well, so you really only have to walk about half or two thirds the distance.

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2 hours ago, Silly said:

If you don't have warp by this point you can instead use Bernadetta/Ashe to aggro Miklan over the wall with Deadeye. This obviously still takes significantly longer than just warp skipping, but it cuts considerable time off the map, because instead of having to walk alllllll the way around with your slow units, Miklan will start coming to you as well, so you really only have to walk about half or two thirds the distance.

Both times I played the game, Miklan started moving on his own around turn 5-6 or so (I forget exactly) without my doing anything obvious to trigger it, while both times my wife played, he stayed still until she was in range. I'm not sure what the hell was up with that.

Anyway I personally prefer discussions that don't assume things like warpskipping the Miklan fight; there's a lot of class/weapon/regular exp available there which will be missed out on, not to mention the Accuracy Ring, and I suspect the overwhelming majority of players will try to get those things. I definitely understand the argument for efficiency but I find it more interesting in the context of efficiently completing secondary objectives and obtaining treasure certainly qualifies for me.

Also if you take "lowest turn count over everything" as your metric then obviously units with Warp will be supremely useful. If Lysithea had trash combat but still had Warp at B she'd still probably be the single most valuable unit for turncount, but I wouldn't find lists that rate her highly particularly useful for anything except a LTC guide. Just my two cents.

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On 8/19/2019 at 7:30 PM, OCDbox said:

I'm not sure how to aggro the boss in prologue. I'll have to fiddle around with it.

That's true enough, do you think Shamir should move up a tier? 

True, but I don't think she should go below her current tier. She can be set into essentially, Seteth you can get much earlier. I'm not sure the people below her compare favorably.

Seems like you saw, but ya the boss aggros when the bottom group is dead so you just have to finish them asap. You can also use the fact the boss prefers to attack Byleth on ep. This should be a bit more flexible wrt the trade chain.

I’d have to think some more how to order the flier candidates. (Also while most people probably don’t care about the subtleties, I don’t think LTC and efficiency are quite the same thing. Though obviously closely related, especially in this game. Yet a single list under the umbrella of both is a little fuzzy considering character evaluations and viability can differ. I’m not sure about your criteria, the phrase “lowest possible turn/efficiency” can mean a lot of things especially pertaining to the reliability of the low turns). 

Anyways Catherine, if she can still get into a flying class reasonably fast, is probably pretty good as you say, but not sure how fast is reasonable. I do know it’s possible to recruit her at lvl 9 in chapter 5, giving her quite the crazy bases for that lvl, but it may be difficult to have Byleth at the requisite level (15) in run that cares about turncount (the NM GD speedrun does use her). Additionally, even if she gets into Pegasus at a decent pace, Falcon seems pretty far off with no proficiencies, so she’d be lacking in move and att and authority compared to Seteth (who also has Swift Strikes as an option). So just not sure there overall. 

Re: some other points. Annette’s quick access to Rally Strength/Speed can be useful. The Authority boon units are also good to use Dance of the Goddess later, especially since cav is so easy to get into. I also don’t think the Physic users are as good as Manuella/Flayn who can contribute more with warp/rescue.
 

On 8/19/2019 at 11:51 PM, Verve said:

I made an example vid for how to 4 turn the prologue

Re: your list, it looks good from a GD standpoint. Very envious of your turn counts because I'm doing BE and warp comes out noticeably later

This seems like a solid strat. iirc if you trade weapons to your Byleth or your lord of choice you have a few more resources for c1 (like an extra bow?) but it may not matter much.

Also, I believe it’s possible to get warp on Linhardt by chapter 6, so c5 seems to be the main issue (range is tiny in c4). As has been mentioned, it seems possible to hit Miklan early using a bow combat art so he runs toward you. Greenhouse can allow him to get crazy mag later so the growth difference doesn’t seem super important. 

9 hours ago, PPPPPPP270 said:

Here's a question I'm wondering about the warp users. If you were doing a BL playthrough. You would need to recruit someone to get warp or be stuck with Maneula with her lackluster magic stat. Should you recruit Linhardt or Lysithea? I would say recruit Linhardt because Lysithea has E rank faith when you recruit her. Linhardt would have C rank faith. So he would get warp faster than her unless I'm severely underestimating mastermind. You still want both of them for sure

 

As for boss killing most bosses are very weak. There's only a few exceptions like the death knight and the final boss of each route. I assume you don't need much investment to kill a lot of bosses. 

You can crossrecruit Lysithea asap (spam gifts) and get her to warp by chapter 6 in BL, though you have the same c5 problem as BE stated above. No crossrecruit is way different but it may be possible to get Shamir to chip the boss down with Curved Shot. And again later you’re feeding the warper all those magic herbs so Manuella’s mag should still be very high. 

22 hours ago, Vorena said:

Would not Bernadetta be above Ashe by a slight amount? Their growth rates are damn identical apart from the fact that Ashe gets 15% more luck and 5% more resistance. However, her personal skill selection is way better than Ashe's as her budding talent in riding grants her Pass and not being at full health grants an extra +5 dmg. Granted you hav to rig taking that damage at some point, but with doubling its hard to pass up free +10 damage especially early on where no unit is getting something like lancefaire, bow faire, etc. until lv 20.

I know tiers were not ordered at the time but springboarding off this: I could see Ashe being better since he has axe proficiency and hidden talent lance so he has an easier time going wyvern (and advanced is also only C flying). Pegasus strength is far lower (and no faire) and Bernie is bad in Swords for Falcon. And it’s arguably too much effort to set up her personal when maps are so short. I don’t really know how good she is early though. I currently don’t think Ashe is very good then, in BL Felix seems to have the better chance at onerounding as an archer for routs like C7 and others.

36 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Anyway I personally prefer discussions that don't assume things like warpskipping the Miklan fight; there's a lot of class/weapon/regular exp available there which will be missed out on, not to mention the Accuracy Ring, and I suspect the overwhelming majority of players will try to get those things. I definitely understand the argument for efficiency but I find it more interesting in the context of efficiently completing secondary objectives and obtaining treasure certainly qualifies for me.

Also if you take "lowest turn count over everything" as your metric then obviously units with Warp will be supremely useful. If Lysithea had trash combat but still had Warp at B she'd still probably be the single most valuable unit for turncount, but I wouldn't find lists that rate her highly particularly useful for anything except a LTC guide. Just my two cents.

I know where you’re coming from and I’ve always respected your posts and opinions (since the gfaqs days if you are NeoElfBoy, your Wild Arms XF guide was rly useful btw. But even if I’m crazy/confused, just your posts on SF). I’ll try to give a brief overview of how it came to this point. 

At this time I’m not going to get deeply into the philosophy of what or who the tier list is for. That’s a mess of an argument that’s been argued extensively in the past, and I’m sure in the present and future. Another day, perhaps. 

I mainly want to note there’s nothing stopping you from making or discussing such a tier list that goes for optional items, that is intended to be more helpful to newer players, or other such criteria. In fact many have made such lists in the past.

The main reason such lists have not endured is that is impossible to agree on things like what “new”  or “average” players know, or how they play and use units. The curse of knowledge makes it particularly hard for experienced players to judge these things.

I also want to note that players interested in efficient clears allow for a number of “unoptimal” plays, frankly in large part for sentimental reasons. For example “no deaths” is typically considered valid despite sacrifices speeding up some maps. “Complete recruitment” is another objective that players often go for, because we want everyone to join and work together. We also go to gaidens and paralogues for cutscenes that are skipped even though it’s objectively inefficient to do so. It's not super consistent, but I don't think you'll find people who totally ignore that stuff. 

The thing with items is just they’re just largely useless. If they are indeed good enough to be measurably improving reliability or something like that, then sure go for them, but if they really just don’t help, it’s hard to justify along lore/plot/character reasons. 

I could almost be convinced to consider certain talk conversations as part of that too, as a side objective to go for, but I think it’d be harder to convert others. 

Finally, it is absolutely valid to be concerned about exp missed in doing skips. This can be analyzed by calculating the chance of certain bosskills later in the game with different level units, and seeing if those extra levels actually matter. For the most part however, skipping is not going to prevent reliable bosskills later in the game (gardening plays a major role in this for this game and quests/paralogues/adjutants allow exp catchup) and so with our current knowledge, it does seem more efficient to do the skips.

I think the concerns you brought up have always been a thing, but I hope I gave some reasons why things are the way they are.

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When speaking about Lysithea vs Lindhart, one thing to keep in mind is that the difference between B rank and A rank is actually massive.

It takes 640 weapon exp to go from E+ (Lysithea's base Faith rank) to B.

It takes 640 weapon exp to go from B rank to A rank.

Just think about that for a second.

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For some reason I cannot edit my previous post, but besides a few typos and other things, I want to add that it's hard to judge what items and side objectives "new" or "average" or "majority of" players care about and sometimes it's easier to ignore them (the items and side objectives). Hard to have a consistent standard.

Also the Linhardt thing has been empirically tested in BE. Players have gotten warp by c6. In BL get Lysithea or do the long route.

edit: why can i edit this post but not the one above...

Edited by XeKr

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8 hours ago, Silly said:

On turn 1 you can move 4 squares and attack 4 tiles away, so your effective range is 8. This matches a pegasus with a bow (though pegasus is more mobile due to no terrain penalties) and cavalier (though not cavalier with a bow), and is better than foot units at intermediate tier. So the first turn is fine.

I can't possibly be the only one that systematically uses stride on 6+ units on turn 1. And if you're going to say "well the move discrepancy is still there", you only need so much move unless you're going straight for the boss, and don't necessarily want to overextend with your fliers. Outside of like, ch 5, I frankly can't think of a chapter where you need more to move almost halfway across the map and have enemies in your reach for a few turns from there. This is with a PP mindset admittedly, which as always is going to ultimately be deemed inferior unless difficulty modes get really crazy, but I think it's worth bringing up.

8 hours ago, Silly said:

If you don't have warp by this point you can instead use Bernadetta/Ashe to aggro Miklan over the wall with Deadeye. This obviously still takes significantly longer than just warp skipping, but it cuts considerable time off the map, because instead of having to walk alllllll the way around with your slow units, Miklan will start coming to you as well, so you really only have to walk about half or two thirds the distance.

From my experience you don't even need to hit him, aggroing certain key enemies around him will trigger him as well. Though I'm unsure how I did it.

4 hours ago, XeKr said:

You can crossrecruit Lysithea asap (spam gifts)

Well, what gifts though? The game provides very few at that point(4 or 5), and gardening for flowers significantly hurts your prof exp gains from the Greenhouse, which I assumed would matter to an extent.

 

Edited by Cysx

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