3 Houses Tier List, HM, LTC vs Efficiency any Route.

[Silly]

Unfortunately stride cannot cover your whole team, and happens to be much better on mounts due to the existence of canto (plus the fact that mounts naturally have more move, but canto is the big one here). If a foot unit stops to kill someone, they're stuck there, whereas if a mount does the same, they can kill the enemy and then re-position further ahead to aggro additional enemies to fight on enemy phase. This is particularly relevant when you have 10+ move because of stride.

[Cysx]

11 minutes ago, Silly said:

Unfortunately stride cannot cover your whole team, and happens to be much better on mounts due to the existence of canto (plus the fact that mounts naturally have more move, but canto is the big one here). If a foot unit stops to kill someone, they're stuck there, whereas if a mount does the same, they can kill the enemy and then re-position further ahead to aggro additional enemies to fight on enemy phase. This is particularly relevant when you have 10+ move because of stride.

Most chapters deployment slots are extremely stride friendly as a matter of fact. Not counting the unit that will use the stride, typically only one or two units won't get reached, if that. Otherwise, canto is great with it for sure, though again, it depends just how much you're willing to overextend. On certain maps it is a genuinely bad idea, even on hard, as enemies don't have durability but they can certainly dish out the pain.

Basically if it boils down to "When I put my mages on the worst deployment slots that I don't cover with stride, they're bad", then, yes, I guess? But is that really that fair of an argument?

Edited August 21, 2019 by Cysx

[ZanaLyrander]

It’s strange, some of the characters who were the stars of the show in my runs like Hubert and Raphael are listed very low... the logic is sound, but I guess that’s the point of this tier list: everyone, even the lowest tier characters can still be useful with the right build and investment, this is more about who is the easiest to make really good.

I admit, I’ve had Ignatz in both of my runs so far, and he’s been trash both times. I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong, but his stats have just been pure garbage. Maybe I’ve just been incredibly unlucky with his level ups or something, but I was surprised to see how high tier he is listed... he’s been basically useless to me, so I have to wonder if I wasn’t building him correctly. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by ZanaLyrander

[virtu333]

59 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Most chapters deployment slots are extremely stride friendly as a matter of fact. Not counting the unit that will use the stride, typically only one or two units won't get reached, if that. Otherwise, canto is great with it for sure, though again, it depends just how much you're willing to overextend. On certain maps it is a genuinely bad idea, even on hard, as enemies don't have durability but they can certainly dish out the pain.

Basically if it boils down to "When I put my mages on the worst deployment slots that I don't cover with stride, they're bad", then, yes, I guess? But is that really that fair of an argument?

Overextending doesn't exist in this game right now, especially with divine pulse. I've cleared hard mode 4 times now and every non warp skip map is striding bow knights/wyverns, having them kill something on player phase, and then have them be 1 man armies spread throughout the map for enemy phase.

[Dark Holy Elf]

29 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

It’s strange, some of the characters who were the stars of the show in my runs like Hubert and Raphael are listed very low... the logic is sound, but I guess that’s the point of this tier list: everyone, even the lowest tier characters can still be useful with the right build and investment, this is more about who is the easiest to make really good.

I admit, I’ve had Ignatz in both of my runs so far, and he’s been trash both times. I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong, but his stats have just been pure garbage. Maybe I’ve just been incredibly unlucky with his level ups or something, but I was surprised to see how high tier he is listed... he’s been basically useless to me, so I have to wonder if I wasn’t building him correctly. 

I love Hubert but there's nothing particularly impressive about him once you reach midgame. Other mages get Physic or Meteor or can use Thyrsus and have at least as much OHKO potential as him (since he misses out on Tomefaire in tier 3). He does have a solid earlygame though.

Raphael has never seemed at all impressive to me; you can get stuff out of him especially via Wyvern but he struggles more than most units on average, due to his poor stats (especially speed, 6+15% is awful) and useless personal skill.

I agree that Ignatz is probably a bit too high; the OP cites Rally Speed as the reason, something I rarely get much use out of myself. Aside from that he seems clearly inferior to Lorenz/Hubert/Annette to me, for instance, because mages are just much better than archers (and indeed all but the most stat-blessed of physical fighters) in the earlygame.

9 hours ago, XeKr said:

 

I know where you’re coming from and I’ve always respected your posts and opinions (since the gfaqs days if you are NeoElfBoy, your Wild Arms XF guide was rly useful btw. But even if I’m crazy/confused, just your posts on SF). I’ll try to give a brief overview of how it came to this point. 

 At this time I’m not going to get deeply into the philosophy of what or who the tier list is for. That’s a mess of an argument that’s been argued extensively in the past, and I’m sure in the present and future. Another day, perhaps. 

...

I think the concerns you brought up have always been a thing, but I hope I gave some reasons why things are the way they are.

Yeah, NeoElfboy is me. Glad you enjoyed the XF guide; I consider that a gem of a game and I always think it's a pity it was such a niche game.

Beyond that I appreciate the response, and I do understand why things are the way they are, and I definitely understand the difficulty in trying to predict what "new" or "aerage" players do. In particular many average players probably just grind at the Tower of Valni or auxillary fights etc. etc., but we don't do tier lists based on that because everyone functions well under those circumstances.

In the end I agree that a tier list is going to have to make assumptions for its criteria, that's the nature of the beast. The criteria I favour aren't as popular overall likely because they're more arbitrary, and that's fine. I'll probably always push for them to be considered a bit in these conversations, but I fully expect folks like yourself to push back and frankly your arguments are very sound.

[Cysx]

25 minutes ago, virtu333 said:

Overextending doesn't exist in this game right now, especially with divine pulse. I've cleared hard mode 4 times now and every non warp skip map is striding bow knights/wyverns, having them kill something on player phase, and then have them be 1 man armies spread throughout the map for enemy phase.

That is unfortunate to hear. I was under the impression death was a relevant possibility for lone units.

"sigh" If the shutting down of slightly more complex approaches is already a thing now, I really hope they don't mess up with the additional difficulties. Just makes discussing the game pointless.
That being said, I doubt they'll save the game from flier supremacy either way.

[Silly]

2 minutes ago, Cysx said:

That is unfortunate to hear. I was under the impression death was a relevant possibility for lone units.

Most of the time your physical units are bulky enough to take a few hits. The first stride turn (if you're not just killing the boss) is mostly a planning problem dedicated to setting up a situation in which your units take as many EP attacks as possible (to maximize your EP combat), but no one unit takes enough hits to die. The player phase action is usually for removing "problem" enemies that will ruin your plan, and then you canto into the appropriate spot to do EP combat. For example, if your position is a good one, but has you attacked by four enemies when you can realistically safely take on three, then you can and should still go to that position. It's just that one of the four enemies is a target that you should aim to remove first on player phase.

Death is definitely a possibility with poor positioning (fliers for the most part aren't literally invincible), but the chance of death is pretty easy to mitigate by picking your spots well.

Also, Wyverns and other fliers are bulkier than they seem, given how weirdly dodgy they are. Often times I'll put a Wyvern in the range of 3 or 4 enemies knowing that if they get hit with everything they'll be coming out of it alive but with really low HP, and then they'll just dodge everything and ORKO the enemy back, meaning I don't even have to burn a Physic to heal them.

[OCDbox]

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I love Hubert but there's nothing particularly impressive about him once you reach midgame. Other mages get Physic or Meteor or can use Thyrsus and have at least as much OHKO potential as him (since he misses out on Tomefaire in tier 3). He does have a solid earlygame though.

Raphael has never seemed at all impressive to me; you can get stuff out of him especially via Wyvern but he struggles more than most units on average, due to his poor stats (especially speed, 6+15% is awful) and useless personal skill.

I agree that Ignatz is probably a bit too high; the OP cites Rally Speed as the reason, something I rarely get much use out of myself. Aside from that he seems clearly inferior to Lorenz/Hubert/Annette to me, for instance, because mages are just much better than archers (and indeed all but the most stat-blessed of physical fighters) in the earlygame.

Yeah your mage is probably better early on, but Rally speed was needed for certain boss kill stat thresholds and route maps. That being said I can see why that seems like a weird thing to value. I guess I rated B- and C tier as characters that struggle to 1RKO in some way for most of the game (and Flayn and Manuela) and ordered it by how they might be able to contribute something else useful and potential.  Lorenz, Hubert, and Annette may be a bit better on foot, but I think characters in B- are better because they are more functional on mounts (if losing magic). Ignatz is better on a horse than they are which is still 2/3 of the game.  I'm also just not sure that Ashe and Bern are a tier better than he is...

Also regarding Raphael: I just think SMITE on a dragon with okay combat and durability is at least as useful as Flayn's Rescue or Manuela's [Very late] Warp which is why he's where he's at. If he had good speed he would be probably where Sylvain and Ferdinand are.

I do admit B- and C might need to be reordered. Any thoughts what your order would be with your experience with these characters?

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, NeoElfboy is me. Glad you enjoyed the XF guide; I consider that a gem of a game and I always think it's a pity it was such a niche game.

Beyond that I appreciate the response, and I do understand why things are the way they are, and I definitely understand the difficulty in trying to predict what "new" or "aerage" players do. In particular many average players probably just grind at the Tower of Valni or auxillary fights etc. etc., but we don't do tier lists based on that because everyone functions well under those circumstances.

In the end I agree that a tier list is going to have to make assumptions for its criteria, that's the nature of the beast. The criteria I favour aren't as popular overall likely because they're more arbitrary, and that's fine. I'll probably always push for them to be considered a bit in these conversations, but I fully expect folks like yourself to push back and frankly your arguments are very sound.

I understand why people dislike LTC. Although this game is one of the most reliable ones to LTC. Rigging boss kills with crits are pretty rare and the stat benchmarks are in general not hard to hit (although sometimes it requires rigging certain characters to not get stat screwed).

9 hours ago, ZanaLyrander said:

It’s strange, some of the characters who were the stars of the show in my runs like Hubert and Raphael are listed very low... the logic is sound, but I guess that’s the point of this tier list: everyone, even the lowest tier characters can still be useful with the right build and investment, this is more about who is the easiest to make really good.

I admit, I’ve had Ignatz in both of my runs so far, and he’s been trash both times. I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong, but his stats have just been pure garbage. Maybe I’ve just been incredibly unlucky with his level ups or something, but I was surprised to see how high tier he is listed... he’s been basically useless to me, so I have to wonder if I wasn’t building him correctly. 

Hubert is good early. Raphael doesn't 1RKO on enemy phase reliably.

Ignatz isn't great, I agree. However, after he grabs a mount (neutral in lances and riding), he's at worst functional and specializes in the best weapon type and somewhat more useful than the mages below him on the list. I'm not sure I would rate him a tier below Bern and Ashe is the reason, but I'm open to discussion about it.

[ZanaLyrander]

11 hours ago, OCDbox said:

Hubert is good early. Raphael doesn't 1RKO on enemy phase reliably.

Ignatz isn't great, I agree. However, after he grabs a mount (neutral in lances and riding), he's at worst functional and specializes in the best weapon type and somewhat more useful than the mages below him on the list. I'm not sure I would rate him a tier below Bern and Ashe is the reason, but I'm open to discussion about it.

My Raphael pretty reliably 1RKOd on the enemy phase, but he was a Wyvern Lord, which gave him a minimum speed of 24. Meaning he actually could double many units, and his strength was high enough that for the faster units, he didn’t need to double, he hit like a double decker bus. Of course I wasn’t going for a fast run, my guys were probably way overleveled, so take that with a grain of salt.

My feelings about Ignatz was just “everything he can possibly do, I have multiple other units that do it better.” You can make him into a lackluster archer, a shitty mage, a weak cavalier... he has plenty of options for class, and he’s mediocre in all of them. Even without recruiting, within his own house, he’s obsolete and there’s a better choice for every role he could fill. It’s kinda sad really, because his personality, while cliche, was mildly endearing, but he was so useless I couldn’t get attached. 

[Centh]

7 hours ago, ZanaLyrander said:

My Raphael pretty reliably 1RKOd on the enemy phase, but he was a Wyvern Lord, which gave him a minimum speed of 24. Meaning he actually could double many units, and his strength was high enough that for the faster units, he didn’t need to double, he hit like a double decker bus. Of course I wasn’t going for a fast run, my guys were probably way overleveled, so take that with a grain of salt.

My feelings about Ignatz was just “everything he can possibly do, I have multiple other units that do it better.” You can make him into a lackluster archer, a shitty mage, a weak cavalier... he has plenty of options for class, and he’s mediocre in all of them. Even without recruiting, within his own house, he’s obsolete and there’s a better choice for every role he could fill. It’s kinda sad really, because his personality, while cliche, was mildly endearing, but he was so useless I couldn’t get attached. 

Sounds like the perfect dancer

[Hyper L]

On 8/22/2019 at 8:49 AM, ZanaLyrander said:

My Raphael pretty reliably 1RKOd on the enemy phase, but he was a Wyvern Lord, which gave him a minimum speed of 24. Meaning he actually could double many units, and his strength was high enough that for the faster units, he didn’t need to double, he hit like a double decker bus. Of course I wasn’t going for a fast run, my guys were probably way overleveled, so take that with a grain of salt.

My feelings about Ignatz was just “everything he can possibly do, I have multiple other units that do it better.” You can make him into a lackluster archer, a shitty mage, a weak cavalier... he has plenty of options for class, and he’s mediocre in all of them. Even without recruiting, within his own house, he’s obsolete and there’s a better choice for every role he could fill. It’s kinda sad really, because his personality, while cliche, was mildly endearing, but he was so useless I couldn’t get attached. 

Maybe there's a Crit build we can find to exploit Ignatz good Dex+Lck growths.

[ZanaLyrander]

4 minutes ago, Hyper L said:

Maybe there's a Crit build we can find to exploit Ignatz good Dex+Lck growths.

Hmm... well, he doesn’t have a weakness in axes or brawling... you could always try turning him into a war master for that +20 crit chance, which would also help his strength and HP growth... add in killer weapons, a crit enhancing Battalion... this actually has potential. 

[Silly]

11 minutes ago, Hyper L said:

 Maybe there's a Crit build we can find to exploit Ignatz good Dex+Lck growths.

I don't think Ignatz is particularly better suited towards crit builds than many other students. I do think that stacking crit is reasonable enough in this game so if that's what you want to do with a unit it will be fine, but most units can get into reasonable crit builds because so much crit comes from your weapon/battalion, etc. rather than any differences in growths.

Each point of Dex and Luck only contributes 0.5 to your crit rate, so Ignatz's higher growths here means that crit rate at level 40 is only going to be roughly 2% higher than say, Leonie's and Ashe's crit rate (assuming they all follow the same build path).

Edited August 23, 2019 by Silly

[Hyper L]

Question. Does Wrath and Batallion Wrath stack?

[De Geso]

"Chapter 5: 1 turn"

Warp over the wall and then kill the boss, I guess?

[Silly]

1 hour ago, De Geso said:

"Chapter 5: 1 turn"

Warp over the wall and then kill the boss, I guess?

Yeah.

The LTC strategy actually technically takes 2 turns. But the game counts it as 1, because the first turn of the "Kill the Black Beast" half of the chapter is counted as the same turn as the last turn of the "kill Miklan" half in the logs, so if you clear both stages in 1 turn then the log shows a 1 turn clear for the whole map.

[OCDbox]

On 8/22/2019 at 6:49 AM, ZanaLyrander said:

My Raphael pretty reliably 1RKOd on the enemy phase, but he was a Wyvern Lord, which gave him a minimum speed of 24. Meaning he actually could double many units, and his strength was high enough that for the faster units, he didn’t need to double, he hit like a double decker bus. Of course I wasn’t going for a fast run, my guys were probably way overleveled, so take that with a grain of salt.

My feelings about Ignatz was just “everything he can possibly do, I have multiple other units that do it better.” You can make him into a lackluster archer, a shitty mage, a weak cavalier... he has plenty of options for class, and he’s mediocre in all of them. Even without recruiting, within his own house, he’s obsolete and there’s a better choice for every role he could fill. It’s kinda sad really, because his personality, while cliche, was mildly endearing, but he was so useless I couldn’t get attached. 

It's worth noting that Ignatz also has a strength in authority and was able to reach B during chapter 7. This was relevant because it meant I had 2 sources of stride for chapter 7 (after doing Sylvain's paralogue) which was really useful for chapter 7 when he was a cavalier (making a 4 turn feasible...probably). Honestly your comment about Ignatz should probably extend more to Lorenz than anyone since he doesn't really offer anything unique and does mediocre as both a mage and physical unit. At least Ignatz's unique things have been really helpful in route maps in most paralogues.

[XeKr]

On 8/21/2019 at 6:08 AM, Cysx said:

Well, what gifts though? The game provides very few at that point(4 or 5), and gardening for flowers significantly hurts your prof exp gains from the Greenhouse, which I assumed would matter to an extent.

I know it has been tested and between the various items and gifts and eating/choir and whatever other support point opportunities there are early, it is possible to get Lysithea in BL in the weeks after chapter 3 (I believe there is a bit of rng for the flowers and since you’re counting on her asking you via B support autorecruit) and then she can reach warp by c6 (and it has been estimated with near-perfect luck, maybe even c5).

Statbooster farming only really begins after the first merchant quests which is around chapter 6 I think (I admit I haven’t had the time to look over VincentASM’s gardening update in detail though). Professor level can be grinded by fishing, which yeah sucks and is realtime inefficient, which is why I noted elsewhere the tier list may depend heavily on how monastery content is treated.

An aside on that note: while some may think gardening is analogous to grinding or things of that nature, there is really no precedent in FE to farming this many statboosters. Additionally, if one is okay with stuff like FE4 arena, bexping units in Tellius, or in this game eating meals for motivation, cooking for stats, faculty instruction, choir, returning lost items, fishing, etc, then gardening actually takes way less time than that stuff with its instant menus and no cutscenes. It’s probably less than 5% of the Explore time. So I don’t see a solid reason to ban it (besides it being too broken). It seems to be part of the natural and intended gameplay loop.

I also want to emphasize that it’s not a matter of resetting and rigging until statboosters show up. You can refuse to reset and probably farm 20-30 statboosters across the game, conservatively. Anecdotally, I have seen other players say (and this matches my experience) that you get a booster nearly every week if going all 1 color seeds + highest level cultivation. There’s something like 60 weeks of explore (16 chapters between c6 and the end, about 4 weeks per chapter, minus paralogue/quest/other weeks), so you can imagine the potential. Unless the criteria specify the player must Rest every week (which to be fair, might be the more clean solution), gardening should be a relevant factor imo.

On 8/21/2019 at 11:07 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, NeoElfboy is me. Glad you enjoyed the XF guide; I consider that a gem of a game and I always think it's a pity it was such a niche game.

Definitely some great, if sometimes weird, srpg ideas in there (and music too). Also not sure if you remember but we had some discussions on the gfaqs FE10 board way back in the day too. I recall you made some of the most compelling arguments. Fun times >_> (username is Voidtemplar)

On 8/21/2019 at 11:07 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Beyond that I appreciate the response, and I do understand why things are the way they are, and I definitely understand the difficulty in trying to predict what "new" or "aerage" players do. In particular many average players probably just grind at the Tower of Valni or auxillary fights etc. etc., but we don't do tier lists based on that because everyone functions well under those circumstances.

In the end I agree that a tier list is going to have to make assumptions for its criteria, that's the nature of the beast. The criteria I favour aren't as popular overall likely because they're more arbitrary, and that's fine. I'll probably always push for them to be considered a bit in these conversations, but I fully expect folks like yourself to push back and frankly your arguments are very sound.

In fairness, my “normal” playstyle is to get all items because some maps are just too short and trivial otherwise and yeah even I personally find it more fun and interesting, I just don’t see how to argue going for all those items as efficient. I think that distinction is important.

I would actually be down to discuss how characters perform in an all-items environment, but it almost seems like stuff like warp is even more useful in some of those cases? Like right now you can go completely warpless and still trivialize some maps, so a lot of this movement utility is overkill. But if going for other objectives, warp is like one of the best ways to get a unit into another part of the map quickly and reliably, so it’s kinda even more valuable. If necessary to cover more map distance, unique mobility or utility is often what distinguishes units even further. Even if you wanted to go for the accuracy ring in the top left or go full Kill-Every-Last-One-Of-Them, warping through the wall would kinda still make that easier (like cutting the chapter in half by approaching from two directions instead of going the full loop). Additionally, for Lysithea/mages in general, their combat is probably more relevant if not 1 turn kill bossing most maps.

And on a more meta note, in hindsight my use of “we” in the last post was poor and I don’t speak for anyone else. There’s not really an LTC cabal that agrees on everything and schemes to influence all tier lists. There’s also quite a number of “consensus” “optimal” strats or builds or character evaluations that I disagree with, or at least think are arguable (for example I don’t think +Mag Dragon F!Corrin is the best build. And I actually think some early Pegasus Knights/Cavaliers have traditionally been overrated for combat. Some fliers in this game have overrated combat, even already. Felix probably not best as Mortal Savant though that may be more an SF thing, etcetc). It’s more that there are certain strats wherein it’s hard to deny the efficiency, and certain units contribute more to those strats or benefit more from specific resource allocation, and those sort of opinions persist over time because of more objectivity/less arbitrariness/simply magic/whatever.

I honestly think I’m one of the players that cares the most about reliability, like way more than necessary. For example I would favor using binomials to more accurately describe stats (probability of at least a stat at a certain lvl and compare to enemy stats) rather than averages which tend to only be approx. 55-65% likely (to have at least that average stat), which is hardly “reliable” imo. 

On 8/21/2019 at 8:26 PM, OCDbox said:

I understand why people dislike LTC. Although this game is one of the most reliable ones to LTC. Rigging boss kills with crits are pretty rare and the stat benchmarks are in general not hard to hit (although sometimes it requires rigging certain characters to not get stat screwed).

Do you mind clarifying more? As I understand, Krash and Valk have devised 5 turn strats for chapter 1 in GD and BL, though they require a Hilda Smash 20ish crit + crest proc on Dedue and 2% crit on Claude respectively (of course there may be a better possibility that no one knows or has documented yet; you yourself noted 6 turns though). Additionally, c3 in 5 turns seems possible with 2 8 AS units with bows, or Felix crest procs (again maybe better is possible). Linhardt in BE and poached Lysithea outside GD can probably reach warp by c5 if resetting for perfect instructs. Gardening may yield upwards of 50 statboosters if rigging (not totally sure yet but it seems possible from pre-plant resets, though not in-greenhouse resets like flower quantity). Valk also thinks a 2 turn in c4 is possible (without sacrificing a mission assistance unit) if Dimitri and Felix have rigged str/spd. Are these acceptable strats for you/this list? (no problem if they are, I’m actually just curious about your standards. You finding these ltc strats independently and optimization in routs is legit impressive and I’m just wondering about these other scenarios.)

Edited August 25, 2019 by XeKr

[Verve]

12 hours ago, XeKr said:

Do you mind clarifying more? As I understand, Krash and Valk have devised 5 turn strats for chapter 1 in GD and BL, though they require a Hilda Smash 20ish crit + crest proc on Dedue and 2% crit on Claude respectively (of course there may be a better possibility that no one knows or has documented yet; you yourself noted 6 turns though). Additionally, c3 in 5 turns seems possible with 2 8 AS units with bows, or Felix crest procs (again maybe better is possible). Linhardt in BE and poached Lysithea outside GD can probably reach warp by c5 if resetting for perfect instructs. Gardening may yield upwards of 50 statboosters if rigging (not totally sure yet but it seems possible from pre-plant resets, though not in-greenhouse resets like flower quantity). Valk also thinks a 2 turn in c4 is possible (without sacrificing a mission assistance unit) if Dimitri and Felix have rigged str/spd. Are these acceptable strats for you/this list? (no problem if they are, I’m actually just curious about your standards. You finding these ltc strats independently and optimization in routs is legit impressive and I’m just wondering about these other scenarios.)

I'm pretty new to Serenes Forest as a forum, wondering where are there discussions about LTC strats (besides this thread of course), or is it off forum somewhere? BE also has a small percent crit dependent 5 turn for Ch1 that I accidentally stumbled upon that I wanted to talk about but no idea exactly where.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Verve
It was deep into the AM and I accidentally said ch3

[OCDbox]

18 hours ago, XeKr said:

Do you mind clarifying more? As I understand, Krash and Valk have devised 5 turn strats for chapter 1 in GD and BL, though they require a Hilda Smash 20ish crit + crest proc on Dedue and 2% crit on Claude respectively (of course there may be a better possibility that no one knows or has documented yet; you yourself noted 6 turns though). Additionally, c3 in 5 turns seems possible with 2 8 AS units with bows, or Felix crest procs (again maybe better is possible). Linhardt in BE and poached Lysithea outside GD can probably reach warp by c5 if resetting for perfect instructs. Gardening may yield upwards of 50 statboosters if rigging (not totally sure yet but it seems possible from pre-plant resets, though not in-greenhouse resets like flower quantity). Valk also thinks a 2 turn in c4 is possible (without sacrificing a mission assistance unit) if Dimitri and Felix have rigged str/spd. Are these acceptable strats for you/this list? (no problem if they are, I’m actually just curious about your standards. You finding these ltc strats independently and optimization in routs is legit impressive and I’m just wondering about these other scenarios.)

That's a fair point. Even I don't go for absolute low turn count. I'm not sure where to draw the line, but I arbitrarily set it to where a LTC strategy can be reliably replicated.  The strategies I use have almost always reliably yielded the turn counts I listed earlier (before you start hitting the 1 turn boss clears where it's not that hard to figure out).

The chapter 1 strategy in 5 turns is hard for me to justify because in addition to those low crits and crest procs, you need the levels ups to cooperate to hit certain benchmarks for the next few chapters (although it's really just preventing low side of averages). You also don't have divine pulse at this point. I'm not sure what the crest proc rates are as well at this point. It was already hard enough to rig killer weapon critical hits and making sure sub 70s hits don't miss even with divine pulse for 2 turning Sylvains paralogue with chapter 7 units, I can't imagine doing this.

FYI my chapter 7-5 turn is probably suboptimal as well and Ingrid's paralogue is probably 1 turnable with a dancer later on as well (and massive magic herb Lysithea abuse).

I now understand chapter 3's 5 turn, it's reliable as well on GD. If you can get Leonie, Raphael, and Claude strided on turns 2 and 4 (Claude needs 16 strength/10 speed minimum with iron bow before rally strength), have Leonie behind him use curve shot afterward (Marianne likely doesn't have Thoron at this point).

On BL you can use Felix and Ashe and Annette. On BE you can use Edelgard, Bern (needs deadeye and personal skill) and Hubert/Dorothea probably.

I don't understand the 2 turn for chapter 4 strategy or why Felix and Dimitri need rigged strength? Isn't the limiting factor movement? I'm pretty sure Lysithea can hit warp by then though (Which requires resets so she gets both choir events and lots of perfects on teachings). 

I'm still not sure how to reliably get the statboosters either. I've tried to influence the RN when before planting the week before, but it didn't work. 

13 hours ago, Verve said:

I'm pretty new to Serenes Forest as a forum, wondering where are there discussions about LTC strats (besides this thread of course), or is it off forum somewhere? BE also has a small percent crit dependent 5 turn for Ch3 that I accidentally stumbled upon that I wanted to talk about but no idea exactly where.

Same. And also interested in knowing.

BTW: is it Bern getting a deadeye critical with steel bow?

Edited August 25, 2019 by OCDbox

[Verve]

25 minutes ago, OCDbox said:

Same. And also interested in knowing.

BTW: is it Bern getting a deadeye critical with steel bow?

Sorry, it was deep into the AM and I accidentally said Ch3 instead of Ch1 somehow. Oops. I would like to think 5 turns on Ch3 would be quite impossible :S But I guess I haven't really gotten around to optimizing that map yet

Edited August 25, 2019 by Verve

[Cysx]

14 hours ago, XeKr said:

I know it has been tested and between the various items and gifts and eating/choir and whatever other support point opportunities there are early, it is possible to get Lysithea in BL in the weeks after chapter 3 (I believe there is a bit of rng for the flowers and since you’re counting on her asking you via B support autorecruit) and then she can reach warp by c6 (and it has been estimated with near-perfect luck, maybe even c5).

Well that makes more sense. But early on, since 300(flowers) vs 500(5 stars seed) exp is often the difference between one more activity point(leading to more opportunities for choir and eating, even + speed cooking), I assumed one'd want that more.

Also fishing is extremely limited early on, as I'm sure you know, there's no way to grind with it. Even later really. You can get a lot at once with multifish, but that's maybe relevant twice in a playthrough, and can be expected to give you ~2000 exp? That's actually not that big a deal when first week questions quickly start giving 1000+.
In my experience you mostly want fishing for +spd cooking, but I guess that doesn't matter much when it comes to LTC.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Cysx

[Irysa]

On 8/25/2019 at 10:35 AM, Verve said:

I'm pretty new to Serenes Forest as a forum, wondering where are there discussions about LTC strats (besides this thread of course), or is it off forum somewhere? BE also has a small percent crit dependent 5 turn for Ch1 that I accidentally stumbled upon that I wanted to talk about but no idea exactly where.

 

On 8/25/2019 at 5:52 PM, OCDbox said:

Same. And also interested in knowing.

Hey so, a while back I made a discord for LTC/Efficiency that was an attempt to unite different community bases. Originally I'd hoped to talk about it on SF to attract more players but I kinda stopped using the site and wasn't really allowed to just pop up to blatantly low effort advertise it, so I was planning on a project to make a thread with, and then drop the hint in the same thread, but uh, things happened and that project got stalled (working on it again though, people interested in reliability should like it)

Anyway the point is anyone can PM me for an invite, there's no vetting procedure or anything. I just want to keep track of who's joining and I find if anyone actually bothers to ask for an invite it indicates they probably care enough not to shitpost all the time. If you want in just send me a message.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Irysa

[Oranges]

I agree with the majority of the list, although I haven't personally started my LTC run.

 

Things I would argue for:

Sylvain A-  to A: Higher than Ferdinand because of his early access to the Lance of Ruin if you tell Rhea to fuck off. Also is one of the most versatile characters in the game, able to go Dark Knight for another physic user, or Wyrven Lord for just more everything. Also IMMEDIATELY available no matter the route if you play F!Byleth.

Dimitri from S to S: I want to reinforce that Dimitri belongs in S tier. Dimitri is just really optimized. He has the best growths in the game and snowballs early, preferably going through the bow-knight path. Admittedly while flight is a hard perk to measure, his route has access to Kingdom Knights/Gautier Knights/his personal battalion which is like +8might and +15 crit.

Seteth: B to A- or A: I know, I know, he comes late. But when he does arrive, he has literally everything going for him. Strengths in authority, axes, lances, flying, with good bases and growths in the right class. This dude literally has no weakness. Outside of the lords I would bench anyone else for him.

Dedue: C to D+ I hear that his viability is coming from smite? Idk but the dude has weakness in flight and horses, and is unavailable for a large portion of the endgame.

Ignatz: B- to C : I read the discussion you made earlier about breakpoints, and maybe your right, but his lack of access to any crest or DEADEYE(which is among the best combat arts in the game) and a strength in horses makes him in my opinion, C tier. Yes you can make him a dancer, but you can make ANYONE dancer. This goes more towards how good dancers are, rather than how good Ignatz is.

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Oranges

[OCDbox]

2 hours ago, Oranges said:

I agree with the majority of the list, although I haven't personally started my LTC run.

 

Things I would argue for:

Sylvain A-  to A: Higher than Ferdinand because of his early access to the Lance of Ruin if you tell Rhea to fuck off. Also is one of the most versatile characters in the game, able to go Dark Knight for another physic user, or Wyrven Lord for just more everything. Also IMMEDIATELY available no matter the route if you play F!Byleth.

Are you crediting Sylvain for Lance of Ruin? Technically it is tied to him and makes death knight less RNG in chapter 6; anyone can use it though. His versatile recruitment is a point in his favor, but as others have mentioned lysithea can be recruited pretty early as well so really he just simply things 

Quote

Dimitri from S to S: I want to reinforce that Dimitri belongs in S tier. Dimitri is just really optimized. He has the best growths in the game and snowballs early, preferably going through the bow-knight path. Admittedly while flight is a hard perk to measure, his route has access to Kingdom Knights/Gautier Knights/his personal battalion which is like +8might and +15 crit.

Hmm...from my subjective experience playing BL i'd agree, but I didn't even attempt to LTC it since I didn't have a good warper in play or could figure out how recruitment worked back then.

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Seteth: B to A- or A: I know, I know, he comes late. But when he does arrive, he has literally everything going for him. Strengths in authority, axes, lances, flying, with good bases and growths in the right class. This dude literally has no weakness. Outside of the lords I would bench anyone else for him.

That's true, but so do characters in B. I mean compared to Shamir and Catherine who can be recruited at chapter 6-7 without too much trouble and are pegasus knights and maybe C bows and some supports by the time he's recruited...I'm not sure Seteth really outclasses them. 

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Dedue: C to D+ I hear that his viability is coming from smite? Idk but the dude has weakness in flight and horses, and is unavailable for a large portion of the endgame.

I didn't try it personally, but he can hit Cav for midgame (and have smite) and function okay up until chapter 8 (dismount for player phase combat gauntlets since it's a free action), though I admit it might not be a good idea longterm since he won't be hitting any decent advanced classes. I can agree to this.

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Ignatz: B- to C : I read the discussion you made earlier about breakpoints, and maybe your right, but his lack of access to any crest or DEADEYE(which is among the best combat arts in the game) and a strength in horses makes him in my opinion, C tier. Yes you can make him a dancer, but you can make ANYONE dancer. This goes more towards how good dancers are, rather than how good Ignatz is.

I'm not sure anyone is arguing that he needs to be dancer; dancer is probably wasted on him since it denies one of your mages a 6 move option. If he isn't a starting character he would definitely be C tier or probably D+. If you start with him, he's not that hard to salvage since he can focus on working toward bow knight right away (C lance isn't too hard to hit). While he doesn't have deadeye he does have rally speed and will easily fit into B authority (for the 2nd stride after chapter 7) which I find to be just as situationally useful as deadeye. 

 

As an aside, I'm not sure how I feel about the 2 turn option for chapter 4. The only way I can see this happening is a low accuracy and low critical deadeye from Bern or Ashe (you can go for either critical or accuracy since no battlion starts with both). Though it's only 2 turns to try to reset for I guess...and you have divine pulse at this point. The other option is killing the death knight somehow on turn 2, following a curved shot critical from Byleth on the boss with also seems unrealistic. The other option is trying to kill the death knight (Maybe sacrifice mission assistance Ferdinand?) and THEN a Curved shot critical hit which maxes out at ~20 percent. We are looking at sub-5% success rates at best for chapter completion at that point...

The 3 turn assuming this game is 2RN is over 80%.

Edited August 27, 2019 by OCDbox