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3 Houses Tier List, HM, LTC vs Efficiency any Route.

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Curious, do we normally give units credit for the items and stuff that they have? Because I personally wouldn't value something like that.

For example, does Claude get bonus credit in the prologue because trading his Iron Bow around is essential to clearing the chapter quickly? Does Stefan get credit in FE9/10 for bringing the Vague Katti, even if you take his weapon and immediately bench him afterwards?  etc. etc.

Also I wouldn't be too opposed to combining tier B and A- (or at least move the top half of B into A-).

Edited by Silly

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20 minutes ago, Silly said:

Curious, do we normally give units credit for the items and stuff that they have? Because I personally wouldn't value something like that.

For example, does Claude get bonus credit in the prologue because trading his Iron Bow around is essential to clearing the chapter quickly? Does Stefan get credit in FE9/10 for bringing the Vague Katti, even if you take his weapon and immediately bench him afterwards?  etc. etc.

Also I wouldn't be too opposed to combining tier B and A- (or at least move the top half of B into A-).

In a word, no.

Items can be easily traded away to another unit. Claude having curve shot is helpful, but merely being equipped with a bow isn't a boon. We can recruit Catherine without ever using her, and her personal sword can be used by anyone. 

In other games, when a unit has exclusive access to a weapon, that's usually a positive. We care about using the weapon, not merely joining with it in the inventory.

In FE9, Stefan is probably the only unit with S-rank swords when he joins, so he gets points for using the Vague Katti for a few chapters, but merely bringing it with him doesn't matter. Worth noting that you can get the sword without recruiting him. In FE10, similar story.

Units can be recruited without ever being used, or ever making the game easier. The items are (usually) just a reward for recruiting them, but say nothing about how good the unit is.

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1 hour ago, LogRhythm said:

 In a word, no.

Items can be easily traded away to another unit. Claude having curve shot is helpful, but merely being equipped with a bow isn't a boon. We can recruit Catherine without ever using her, and her personal sword can be used by anyone. 

In other games, when a unit has exclusive access to a weapon, that's usually a positive. We care about using the weapon, not merely joining with it in the inventory.

In FE9, Stefan is probably the only unit with S-rank swords when he joins, so he gets points for using the Vague Katti for a few chapters, but merely bringing it with him doesn't matter. Worth noting that you can get the sword without recruiting him. In FE10, similar story.

Units can be recruited without ever being used, or ever making the game easier. The items are (usually) just a reward for recruiting them, but say nothing about how good the unit is.

If this is the case (which I assumed it was), then we really shouldn't give someone like Sylvain credit for access to an early Lance of Ruin, or Lorenz credit for unlocking the chapter that you obtain Thrysus in.

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 Formatting guys. You are free to copy my flawless 1 min work, kek.

Spoiler

S tier:

  • Byleth (F>M)
  • Claude
  • Edelgard
  • Dimitri
  • Lysithea

A Tier: 

  • Dancer
  • Hilda
  • Petra
  • Leonie
  • Ingrid
  • Linhardt

A- Tier:

  • Felix
  • Ferdinand
  • Sylvain

B Tier:

  • Shamir
  • Catherine
  • Seteth
  • Dorothea
  • Marianne
  • Mercedes

B- tier:

  • Manuela
  • Flayn
  • Bernie
  • Ashe
  • Raphael
  • Ignatz
  • Caspar

C tier:

  • Cyril
  • Dedue
  • Lorenz
  • Hubert
  • Annette

D+ tier:

  • Hanneman

D tier:

  • Gilbert
  • Alois

For my comments I will just combine the - tiers with the lower tier (B- and C becoming C and so on, I just find too many tiers unnecessary, especially with a small cast as this).

Spoiler

A Tier:

  • Dancer
  • Hilda
  • Petra
  • Ingrid
  • Leonie
  • Seteth
  • Linhardt

Ingrid is better than Leonie because she excels in Flying. That means she has more leeway to train in Axes (Wyvern) or Authority (better Battalions), something that Flying Leonie won't have. She has an easier time as a Bow Knight, sure, but Fliers are undoubtely better in this game (especially in terms of being available the entire game opposed to peaking only once you reach Lv.30). Statistically they aren't even that different.

Seteth really needs to be A. He joins relatively late, yes, but not only does he have an ideal class but also high Authority out of the box. None of the other recruitables have that and that makes his base stats that much higher. He has no real weakness and arguably he is better than either of the 3 female Fliers by the the time he joins.
He is heck a lot of better than Catherine at least who barely scrapes by with her nonexistent ranks.

C Tier:

  • Manuela
  • Flayn
  • Annette
  • Bernie
  • Ashe
  • Ignatz
  • Cyril
  • Raphael
  • Caspar
  • Dedue
  • Lorenz
  • Hubert

A bad start affects snowballing. Both Raphael and Caspar have the worst start of all the sudents (especially Caspar) and have a lot of trouble killing things consistently. Considering that they should be much lower and most other Students achieve what they can do but better. Even Cyril does better despite joining late since he has a lot of key affinities to access the better classes faster, freeing up points for battalion access.

I said this on the other thread but Annette being an unconditional +4/+4 very early on (as early as Chapter 3) shouldn't be taken lightly. It helps your units to snowball faster and allows you to reach stat benchmarks for killing bosses more comfortably (less relying on Gardening boosters, good level ups etc.). This holds especially true in LTC where EXP gain is the most limited.
90% of this game consists of "Kill Boss" that means Annette will be able to contribute for that, regardless of her subpar combat performance. In that regard she is much better to have around than any of the other mediocre combat units that require a lot more investment over time where as Annette only requires a mere C+ rank in Authority and becomes relevant throughout the game.
Considering that she should be below Flayn and Manuela.

D Tier:

  • Hanneman
  • Alois
  • Gilbert

To give Alois some credit, he joins a chapter earlier and has existent Spd. Not good but it's there. Weak in Flying hurts but getting him a Wyvern this late wouldn't have worked out anyway.
Gilbert's prospect of ever doubling doesn't really exist because of his class smiting his Spd to the ground and considering he comes post-timeskip fixing him is almost impossible. Even Great Knight seems a bit of a stretch tbh.

 

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12 minutes ago, Shiki said:

Seteth really needs to be A. He joins relatively late, yes, but not only does he have an ideal class but also high Authority out of the box. None of the other recruitables have that and that makes his base stats that much higher. He has no real weakness and arguably he is better than either of the 3 female Fliers by the the time he joins.

To my mind, his biggest weakness is his wretched 5 base speed (50% growth mitigates but does not offset it), he averages 19 speed (including the Wyvern Rider mod) at his join level of 23 which is certainly below that of the other fliers you have in A tier. He joins with an authority rank which is nice but it's not exactly hard to have your fliers at C authority while being well on their way to Wyvern Lord (source: my current playthrough which is literally at his join chapter). Meanwhile they get a big advantage in the fact that they'll already have lots of supports built up as well as having already picked up things like Darting/Death Blow and other skills. He's probably the best of the staff members (not certain, though) but the best early-joiners have a bunch of major advantages over him.

20 minutes ago, Shiki said:

A bad start affects snowballing. Both Raphael and Caspar have the worst start of all the sudents (especially Caspar) and have a lot of trouble killing things consistently. Considering that they should be much lower and most other Students achieve what they can do but better.

Yeah I agree with this. Raphael and Caspar likely end up better than Hubert or Annette but I'm sure I value Hubert/Annette more in a tier setting. The way I see it, when we're talking about lower-end PCs like them, they're probably going to be used until we drop them for out-of-house recruits or staff members. Hubert/Annette are vastly superior to Caspar/Raphael when all four are effectively forced (Chapter 2 until ~6 or so, depending on the effort put into recruiting), so I'm pretty sure I respect them more, just like I respect Dorcas more than Bartre in FE7 even though the latter turns out better.

This is kind of a values thing though and I can see someone disagreeing.

23 minutes ago, Shiki said:

S tier:

  • Byleth (F>M)

I feel that Byleth is marginally overrated at the moment. S/he is certainly very good due to those base stats, but I consistently find s/he is less able to get skill ranks up than the students. Maybe some people prioritize facultry training really hard? But doing so takes away from many other things (raising professor level, building supports, recruiting characters). It's mostly moot though because, like the lords, s/he is certainly good enough to make a staple of the team even if s/he weren't forced; arguably the relative placement of those four characters does not matter.

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36 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I feel that Byleth is marginally overrated at the moment. S/he is certainly very good due to those base stats, but I consistently find s/he is less able to get skill ranks up than the students. Maybe some people prioritize facultry training really hard? But doing so takes away from many other things (raising professor level, building supports, recruiting characters). It's mostly moot though because, like the lords, s/he is certainly good enough to make a staple of the team even if s/he weren't forced; arguably the relative placement of those four characters does not matter.

 

I apologize if I missed it, but is our objective lowest turncount or fastest clear time? Because if we're assuming fastest clear time, then almost all weeks in a month are going to be relegated to resting/skipping, since it progresses time the quickest and has the bonus perk of allowing Sword of the Creator spam (four weeks of resting = full restore on the sword). Assuming max renown and church statues, renown points can first be blown towards auto-recruiting characters by insta-leveling supports in NG+, insta-leveling weapon proficiences for advanced/master requirements (since you won't be manually instructing), and maybe chucking a few towards professor level for adjutants. However, the con means no time for Byleth to level up his skills, meaning he's going to be stuck in the Enlightened One class (most likely), since he can't tutor himself passively like other students (or you'll have to give him weapon proficiency via renown).

Also, if we're assuming lowest clear time, paralogues are NO-GO's. They're added optional time that you don't need to speed through the game on Hard mode, even if their weapons are particularly kick-ass (~looks at Lorenz's staff~). 

Continuing this logical trend, units would be valued for both their combat stats and their most natural class progression. For example, although Catherine can make an excellent wyvern rider, players should think twice about such a decision since she requires a lot of renown investment that goes further for other characters (e.g. instantly boosting mounted/lance stats or whatever). Additionally, since most units in this game are viable (except Hanneman), ranking Catherine highly as a wyvern rider should be reconsidered, since another "sub-par" character can do a decent-enough job in Hard mode difficulty with less effort/renown/resources (read: this is an example; you can rate Catherine highly for other reasons).

Edited by Tarul

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52 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To my mind, his biggest weakness is his wretched 5 base speed (50% growth mitigates but does not offset it), he averages 19 speed (including the Wyvern Rider mod) at his join level of 23 which is certainly below that of the other fliers you have in A tier. He joins with an authority rank which is nice but it's not exactly hard to have your fliers at C authority while being well on their way to Wyvern Lord (source: my current playthrough which is literally at his join chapter). Meanwhile they get a big advantage in the fact that they'll already have lots of supports built up as well as having already picked up things like Darting/Death Blow and other skills. He's probably the best of the staff members (not certain, though) but the best early-joiners have a bunch of major advantages over him.

From my perspective in addition to what is mention is that he has no time to work C bows in. This means compared to the other characters above him, he is unable to do certain things in rout maps you would want him to. Like you've eluded, his enemy phase isn't reliable compared to characters you had from chapter 1-6ish to work around and optimize.

Quote

Yeah I agree with this. Raphael and Caspar likely end up better than Hubert or Annette but I'm sure I value Hubert/Annette more in a tier setting. The way I see it, when we're talking about lower-end PCs like them, they're probably going to be used until we drop them for out-of-house recruits or staff members. Hubert/Annette are vastly superior to Caspar/Raphael when all four are effectively forced (Chapter 2 until ~6 or so, depending on the effort put into recruiting), so I'm pretty sure I respect them more, just like I respect Dorcas more than Bartre in FE7 even though the latter turns out better.

This is kind of a values thing though and I can see someone disagreeing.

I feel that Byleth is marginally overrated at the moment. S/he is certainly very good due to those base stats, but I consistently find s/he is less able to get skill ranks up than the students. Maybe some people prioritize facultry training really hard? But doing so takes away from many other things (raising professor level, building supports, recruiting characters). It's mostly moot though because, like the lords, s/he is certainly good enough to make a staple of the team even if s/he weren't forced; arguably the relative placement of those four characters does not matter.

I think that's usually how we play, but it's hard to evaluate characters meaningfully if we just evaluate them with the assumption we will be dropping them once we recruit the "good" characters in the other houses. 

That being said maybe there's a happy medium between the two. For example, I previously had descriptions for why characters were in certain tiers, but left it off since I know there are many ways to play the game. B- was for characters with weaker combat potential and difficulty snowballing, but offered something unique that might merit deployment in LTC or efficiency more than the 10th best combatant (this is of course dependent on accounting for how team synergy works).

If we ignore their combat/stats completely:

-Flayn offers Rescue almost right away and eventually fortify

-Manuela offers Warp (eventually) 

-Ignatz offers rally speed by chapter 1 and a 2nd stride user after chapter 6,

-Annette offers rally speed by chapter 3, strength by prologue, and a 2nd stride user after chapter 6,

-Raphael offers rally Strength by chapter 1 and smite after chapter 4, Hubert offers rally Magic and a 2nd stride user after chapter 6.

-Deadeye from Bernie and Ashe has an interesting impact on certain AI and easily fit into bow knight or wyvern with a bow. 

I'm not convinced tiers C-E have meaningfully different combat when used since they are all sub-optimal combatants long term.

Personally I would tier it like this:

C tier: Manuela, Flayn, Ignatz, Raphael, Annette, Hubert, Bernie, Ashe (they do something useful that tangibly saves turns throughout the game)

D tier: Caspar, Lorenz, Cyril, Dedue (they do not save turns, but exist early game)

E tier: Alois, Gilbert, Hanneman (lategame and outclassed)

Edited by OCDbox

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16 minutes ago, Tarul said:

I apologize if I missed it, but is our objective lowest turncount or fastest clear time? Because if we're assuming fastest clear time, then almost all weeks in a month are going to be relegated to resting/skipping, since it progresses time the quickest and has the bonus perk of allowing Sword of the Creator spam (four weeks of resting = full restore on the sword). Assuming max renown and church statues, renown points can first be blown towards auto-recruiting characters by insta-leveling supports in NG+, insta-leveling weapon proficiences for advanced/master requirements (since you won't be manually instructing), and maybe chucking a few towards professor level for adjutants. However, the con means no time for Byleth to level up his skills, meaning he's going to be stuck in the Enlightened One class (most likely), since he can't auto-tutor himself (or you'll have to give him weapon proficiency points).

 Also, if we're assuming lowest clear time, paralogues are NO-GO'sThey're added optional time that you don't need to speed through the game on Hard mode, even if their weapons are particularly kick-ass (~looks at Lorenz's staff~). 

Continuing this logical trend, units would be valued for both their combat stats and their most natural class progression. For example, although Catherine can make an excellent wyvern rider, players should think twice about such a decision since she requires a lot of renown investment that goes further for other characters (e.g. instantly boosting mounted/lance stats or whatever). Additionally, since most units in this game are viable (except Hanneman), ranking Catherine highly as a wyvern rider should be reconsidered (read: this is an example; you can rate Catherine highly for other reasons).

This is lowest turn count (aim for reliable arbitrarily: no required low hit rate, low crit rate kills).This is not NG+ because it makes all characters essentially the same.

I think any character can reliably be recruited from a different house by chapter 4 (except Sylvain) if you aim for them and know what you're doing (and willing to reset for B recruitment randomness). I think chapter 6 for Catherine/Shamir/Cyril is probably fair as well. But the assumption in this list is that students are tiered base on Byleth starting in their house.

I think Paralogues are fair game. I don't think literally playing a map should count against anything in itself. I think a better standard should be lowest turn count per map rather than lowest total turns in a playthrough (since if we just ignore paralogues we miss out on learning how to complete them efficiently; since everyone will just skip them otherwise). 

Edited by OCDbox

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16 minutes ago, OCDbox said:

I think Paralogues are fair game. I don't think literally playing a map should count against anything in itself. I think a better standard should be lowest turn count per map rather than lowest total turns in a playthrough (since if we just ignore paralogues we miss out on learning how to complete them efficiently; since everyone will just skip them otherwise). 

Sorry, I'm a little unsure if I agree with your last statement if I understand your last statement correctly. If we don't count paralogues towards total turncount or an "average" turncount, then our goals shift towards recruiting as many characters as possible to gain more relic weapons and character experience... especially since paralogues generally are shorter than most chapters, thus not affecting turncount as much (I could be wrong on this). I understand not including the weekly activity sessions, but are weekly battle sessions as well? I can foresee easily over-leveling characters by spamming routine battles to trivially defeat main chapter maps- especially if there's no overall detriment towards turncount. If we are counting weekly activity sessions but not weekly battle session, why? I don't have a position for this subject; I just want to understand the rule structure in place for the tier list.

I like the idea of regular game + LTC, but I believe that we should include paralogues towards LTC. Otherwise, what incentives do we have to not to spam extra missions + paralogues to over-level critical characters? Are you suggesting that we should have extra stipulations to prevent such situations? Personally, it seems messy and a little arbitrary.

Or are you suggesting minimizing the amount of time it takes on a per-map basis? In which case, how does context matter? If I spend all my resources to perfectly prepare for some arbitrary chapter (randomly picking chapter 9) to the detriment of chapter 10, does this count towards tiering?

I apologize for sounding facetious; that is not my intent. I merely want to understand/establish the groundrules for ranking the tiers!

Edited by Tarul

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36 minutes ago, Tarul said:

Sorry, I'm a little unsure if I agree with your last statement if I understand your last statement correctly. If we don't count paralogues towards total turncount or an "average" turncount, then our goals shift towards recruiting as many characters as possible to gain more relic weapons and character experience... especially since paralogues generally are shorter than most chapters (I could be wrong on this). I understand not including the weekly activity sessions, but are weekly battle sessions as well? I can foresee easily over-leveling characters by spamming routine battles to trivially defeat main chapter maps- especially if there's no overall detriment towards turncount. If we are counting weekly activity sessions but not weekly battle session, why? I don't have a position for this subject; I just want to understand the rule structure in place for the tier list.

I like the idea of regular game + LTC, but I believe that we should include paralogues towards LTC. Otherwise, what incentives do we have to not to spam extra missions + paralogues to over-level critical characters? Are you suggesting that we should have extra stipulations to prevent such situations? Personally, it seems messy and a little arbitrary. 

Or are you suggesting minimizing the amount of time it takes on a per-map basis? In which case, how does context matter? If I spend all my resources to perfectly prepare for some arbitrary chapter (randomly picking chapter 9) to the detriment of chapter 10, does this meet your qualifications.

I apologize for sounding facetious; that is not my intent. I merely want to understand/establish the groundrules for ranking the tiers!

I understand where you're coming from. I don't think you sound facetious either. I definitely don't think optional auxillary battles for grinding purposes are allowed. The reason is something that should be discussed though. However, I'd like to subscribe to a philosophy of only looking at maps rather than just not allowing for resources to be used altogether (even if the auxillary battle maps are technically resources as well).

For example in my Golden Deer, hard mode, new game had a turncount of 52 (depending on your threshold for reliability it can probably hit around 49; I can write out the specifics turncounts of my playthrough if you want) if you ignore all optional maps. However, now you miss out on physically playing ~1/2 the game by not playing the "optional" story/quest maps solely for the lowest number to populate on the screen which I feel misses out on the bigger picture of why we might want a tier list to begin with. I'm not sure a tier list that requires us to ignore half the maps of the game is useful (we go from 41 possible maps +quests to like 23).

My current playthrough I'm aiming for all the paralogues which in thier own right are worth discussing as well. E.g figuring out how to route Sylvain's paralogue in 2 turns is legitimately more interesting than most of the warp+stride+boss kill maps later on. That is to say I think we should include paralogues towards LTC, but I don't think they should be viewed as a penalty either because you are definitely not making that turncount up later since most maps are 1 turnable. Like make a goal turncount per map, but with the stipulation that you can't spend turns grinding on other maps to make that turncount possible.

We are not minimizing time per map. I think the game should be considered within a single playthrough. E.g. chapter 4 is easy to 2 turn if overleveled, but you won't be if all previous chapters were LTC/Efficiency. Unless you can make up that turncount spent grinding elsewhere.

Edited by OCDbox

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As a side note, I spent a few hours messing around with various strategies for LTC Chapter 1 on the BE route.

At this point I'm fairly convinced that getting a 5 turn clear in this chapter is impossible without getting a crit somewhere. The closest I've gotten without relying on a crit was a few damage short of a 5 turn, and that was with heavy optimization and enemy AI manipulation.

A 6 turn clear is not difficult though, and should be relatively reliable if you know what you're doing.

This roughly matches up with what other people think of the map on the BL/GD routes. A 6 turn clear is fairly reliable, whereas a 5 turn relies on some amount of low percentage RNG.

Edited by Silly

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15 hours ago, OCDbox said:

I think any character can reliably be recruited from a different house by chapter 4 (except Sylvain) if you aim for them and know what you're doing (and willing to reset for B recruitment randomness). I think chapter 6 for Catherine/Shamir/Cyril is probably fair as well. But the assumption in this list is that students are tiered base on Byleth starting in their house

I think Ferdinand and maybe Caspar and Leonie are difficult to recruit that early due to time-locked B supports; Ferdinand also suffers from requiring an obnoxious skill to recruit (Heavy Armor).  Anyone else though, I agree; I've definitely recruited Lysithea and Annette that early before.

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I feel like we need to split up Byleth F/M. Byleth F being in top 2 is undoubtable (maybe Edelgard is better). I feel like Felix is better than Byleth M though. Felix is ORKOing enemies right off the bat, Byleth is not.

If Felix is a tier worse than Ingrid for having better stats and later flying then surely Claude< Edelgard for worse stats and later flying. Edelgard gets smite faster vs pass. I don't think investment matters in this game: everyone can become pegasus by 10 and everyone can become wyvern by 20. If pass on an archer is that strong Bernie should be up a tier too, her str isn't even that much worse than Claude's lmao.

I also feel like Raphael/Caspar should be near Dedue, they can go mounted but mount utility is worthless when you're that low down (they're what, the 15th best mounted units?) and Dedue's early game is better.

Btw "all talk/boss interactions LTC" would be cool to see optimised.

Edited by Zkirsche

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I can't speak for LTC strategies but I definitely didn't find Pass that useful in this game, the game rarely does the "line of enemies" thing that, say, Lunatic Conquest Endgame does, and even the rare times it does, you have Canto to carve open a hole and keep moving. And there's almost no terrain fliers can't cross. My first playthrough I ran it on Bernadetta for a long time before I realized I just wasn't making use of it hardly ever.

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So I managed to figure out a pretty reliable 5 turn clear of Ch 1 Blue Lions.

See details here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jl0TjTVp32KyfZpEvTIEw9hjusQnyzgbOMEF5XSmYRk/edit?usp=sharing

I don't have any way of recording this, but if anybody does and wants to make a video showing this off, it would be more helpful than just text instructions.

As far as I'm aware, Blue Lions is currently the only route with a reliable 5 turn clear of this chapter. BE and GD routes rely on low percentage crits for a 5 turn clear.

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Not to beat Dimitri into the ground since people seem to agree on it, but I still don't really get it. Are we muscling through the axe weakness into Wyvern or is Paladin/Bow Knight just as valuable? The latter doesn't seem to be the conclusion- I'm guessing Ferdinand/Sylvain/Felix are A- primarily because they can't access Pegasus Knight and Dimitri has that issue but even worse. There's just so much terrain, especially in the post-timeskip maps, and I don't think Dimitri's combat advantages (which is mostly just strength, Paladin tends to make him slower than the A/A- combat characters) matter too much on Hard.

 

Edited by -Cynthia-

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I think it's a combination of huge Strength, high overall other stats (even with Paladin eating into his Spd, 60 base growth is really great and he gets that full advantage for a lot of the early levels, especially since he can easily go Myrmidon due to having a sword rank; and of course high Str has a slight positive effect on AS too). He can delete basically everything in the game that only has a single HP bar; Atrocity is an ultimate trump card (str+53 damage before skills and battalion is insane) but with his str/spd he often doesn't even need it. He also gets a big level boost during the timeskip? Not sure how it works, but that's what I saw.

It's a lot of combat advantages. I don't kneejerk Felix or Sylvain's combat being good enough to tier higher than him even with their easier flight access (which they don't even have until just before the timeskip), and certainly not Seteth or Catherine or Shamir. (As usual, I don't feel too strongly about his relative placement to non-Blue Lions natives.)

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Having axes also means Ferdinand and Sylvain can more easily get Death Blow though, which cuts into the Str advantage significantly once that is online. Admittedly not on EP although personally I found Dimitri's EP combat pretty underwhelming due to Spd, at least where lategame promoted enemies were concerned. I suppose the core thing is that Ferdi/Sylvain generally have the tools to get PP kills themselves (Death Blow, Brave Axe/Swift Strikes, Hammer for armors etc.) so I question how much the Str lead practically comes into play outside of earlygame.

Felix is kind of a whole other deal- I think he's up there for having the strongest earlygame and being able to transition to Bow Knight but he has some other issues like durability.

 

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Getting Death Blow is a bit of a tradeoff with not being on a horse for tier 2, to be fair. And I do remember a few things which could survive brave/swift strikes from Sylvain-level strength, but almost nothing which could survive both that and Atrocity, so Dimitri should always be able to claim better PP offence, but I'm not sure by how much.

Fair point about the speed. Just ran the numbers, and even spotting Paladin Dimitri a couple extra levels due to his personal, he trails Sylvain by ~5 points lategame because of the gaps in modifiers and growths. The Str gap eats into this but only by 1-2 points. Wyvern Lord never ceases to amaze me whenever I run numbers on this game.

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On 8/25/2019 at 12:52 PM, OCDbox said:

That's a fair point. Even I don't go for absolute low turn count. I'm not sure where to draw the line, but I arbitrarily set it to where a LTC strategy can be reliably replicated.  The strategies I use have almost always reliably yielded the turn counts I listed earlier (before you start hitting the 1 turn boss clears where it's not that hard to figure out).

The chapter 1 strategy in 5 turns is hard for me to justify because in addition to those low crits and crest procs, you need the levels ups to cooperate to hit certain benchmarks for the next few chapters (although it's really just preventing low side of averages). You also don't have divine pulse at this point. I'm not sure what the crest proc rates are as well at this point. It was already hard enough to rig killer weapon critical hits and making sure sub 70s hits don't miss even with divine pulse for 2 turning Sylvains paralogue with chapter 7 units, I can't imagine doing this.

FYI my chapter 7-5 turn is probably suboptimal as well and Ingrid's paralogue is probably 1 turnable with a dancer later on as well (and massive magic herb Lysithea abuse).

I now understand chapter 3's 5 turn, it's reliable as well on GD. If you can get Leonie, Raphael, and Claude strided on turns 2 and 4 (Claude needs 16 strength/10 speed minimum with iron bow before rally strength), have Leonie behind him use curve shot afterward (Marianne likely doesn't have Thoron at this point).

On BL you can use Felix and Ashe and Annette. On BE you can use Edelgard, Bern (needs deadeye and personal skill) and Hubert/Dorothea probably.

I don't understand the 2 turn for chapter 4 strategy or why Felix and Dimitri need rigged strength? Isn't the limiting factor movement? I'm pretty sure Lysithea can hit warp by then though (Which requires resets so she gets both choir events and lots of perfects on teachings). 

I'm still not sure how to reliably get the statboosters either. I've tried to influence the RN when before planting the week before, but it didn't work. 

Same tbh. After all, ‘low’ doesn’t have to mean ‘lowest’. In general people go for a level of reliability they consider “acceptable”, though that can of course vary. I tend to favor something like expected turncount, wherein the turns lost by resets on average are also counted (divine pulse a little tricky but still possible to account for I think). 

Routs are hard. I believe you’ve gotten the lowest tc I’ve seen in c7, though I want to say there was some theorycrafting about a 4 turn or something… 

PIngridDorothea is going to be hard to 1 turn I think because there is going to be a lower limit on warp range preskip, and no aoe dance gambit then.

I believe the c3 5 turn involves ignoring the fow mage and letting Catherine kill it turn 4. This results in enough units to kill the guards and Lonato. It sounds like you figured it out as well or another variant. 

Sorry, I was referring to the c4 2 turn outside GD and without rigged instruct Lysithea. So, warpless (2 turn in GD is more easily doable though still requires a bit of luck iirc). The DK is in the way so either need to kill him or gambit+sacrifice someone (or someone survives a round). Also need Smite, so this is more a BL strat since Edelgard probably doesn’t want to train Armor (unless you want to autolevel trick her maybe).
Hmmm I feel like tried the preplant reset thing and did get some trials with boosters and some without but going to need more testing. which I don’t have time for rn.
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(and because it came up wrt paralogues)

This list does not have to follow tradition, a list can do whatever as long as it’s specified, but here’s a quick explanation for gaiden/paralogue treatment in the past.

To start, there’s no hard rule but in general players like to go for them for lore/content/true ending reasons. The primary exception used to be fe7c19xx as it requires Nils grinding and Lyn mode (and it’s possible to play HHM without LM) and I guess FE11 since the ‘no death’ clause supersedes it. The new age exception is children paralogues, because getting them all is quite the different game from other efficient runs (and to my knowledge, no one has really seriously routed it). Even there, often paralogues like Mozu or p1-4 and Tiki are part of the run (but not superconsistent there). 

In FE16 there’s a few options, mainly resolving around crossrecruitment. In no crossrecruit, it’s easy enough to just go to the paralogues of your native class students + faculty that join. In full crossrecruit, it’s easy enough to go to all the available ones. In optional crossrecruit it gets a little messier (maybe still just the paralogues of the original students?)

Aux battles seem akin to skirmishes/Tower of Valni, so those should count for extra turns imo. Btw I think you can retreat from the ‘forced’ one, though the exp may be useful (and make up the 3ish turns?).

Quest battles are iffy ground, while they are technically content, they are largely just random routs like aux. ‘No quests’ means no dancer and merchants and such (even battalion/forge?). It’s arbitrary but some players are doing ‘only merchant quests’. ‘All quests’ seems fine though, if you don’t mind the maps and all the fetch stuff. 

Finally, ‘Rest only’ is a pretty clean solution, but arguably takes out a lot of the game.

wrt to low clear time: Due to animation skip and Rest/Skip being so much faster than Explore, it’s largely a Byleth solo (with autolevel lord postskip in NM). Catherine/Shamir/Seteth may help a bit. Warp means flying is not as necessary on Byleth (and faculty instruction is way too slow). It’s very different, and TC has specified this list cares about turncount anyways.   

Edited by XeKr

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Getting the "This comment can no longer be edited. It may have been moved or deleted, or too much time may have passed since it was posted for it to be edited." error almost immediately after posting so sorry for typos and doublepost.

Just want to add that new information suggests the lord autolevel to 20 only happens in NM. Still get the bases in HM though. It already probably wasn't worth not using the lord early, and now it definitely isn't (since even with insane stats for lvl 3 they're weak for c13). Unless you really just want those big numbers and a superstrong endgame lord at the cost of a much weaker team earlier (which to be fair, is a pretty easy part of the game) 

Edited by XeKr

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7 hours ago, XeKr said:

Same tbh. After all, ‘low’ doesn’t have to mean ‘lowest’. In general people go for a level of reliability they consider “acceptable”, though that can of course vary. I tend to favor something like expected turncount, wherein the turns lost by resets on average are also counted (divine pulse a little tricky but still possible to account for I think). 

Routs are hard. I believe you’ve gotten the lowest tc I’ve seen in c7, though I want to say there was some theorycrafting about a 4 turn or something… 

 

The 5 turn involves Leonie taking the left side, Claude the middle, and Byleth the right side. Everyone else kind of just supported them. I didn't figure out the B support thing at that time so I only had Ingrid as a good recruit (and Sylvain I guess). I want to say optimizing with a second Stride user (Ignatz) and having Petra and/or Felix available might make a difference. We'll see though

 

7 hours ago, XeKr said:

PIngridDorothea is going to be hard to 1 turn I think because there is going to be a lower limit on warp range preskip, and no aoe dance gambit then.

The 2 turn is pretty simple, you pretty much just need a dancer...or do it early with 2 warpers, Flayn, and 1-2 Smiters

7 hours ago, XeKr said:

I believe the c3 5 turn involves ignoring the fow mage and letting Catherine kill it turn 4. This results in enough units to kill the guards and Lonato. It sounds like you figured it out as well or another variant. 

I actually took out the FOW mage on turn 2 enemy phase. I used the Lure gambit with Byleth after using stride on turn 2. The boss was taken out with Claude (with a rally strength) and Leonie following up with a steel bow curved shot.

7 hours ago, XeKr said:

Sorry, I was referring to the c4 2 turn outside GD and without rigged instruct Lysithea. So, warpless (2 turn in GD is more easily doable though still requires a bit of luck iirc). The DK is in the way so either need to kill him or gambit+sacrifice someone (or someone survives a round). Also need Smite, so this is more a BL strat since Edelgard probably doesn’t want to train Armor (unless you want to autolevel trick her maybe).

Oh I see. Getting to Smite is pretty difficult by chapter 4 . Going from D to B is 580 exp. You get 7 weeks of training IIRC. 54*7=378. You likely get 6-7 tutoring sessions where you should average 34 exp (if 6). That said, I can now see how GD is 2 turns. In fact it's completely reliable...you need to get Raphael to B armor and Lysithea to B Faith by chapter 4 which is ...possible with some resetting and planning (it's a little challenging because you also want Raphael to D authority for chapter 3 since Ignatz or mission assistance Annette struggles to survive turn 2 enemy phase) You can just ignore DK entirely and just warp past him on turn 2. Also probably impossible on BE route since you might need Edelgard to do something else and reaching warp is impossible at this point. 

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On 8/28/2019 at 4:40 PM, Flere210 said:

It's possible to actually get to rally movement whit annette? It's not like you need to invest into something else to rallybot.

It is possible. It's not as useful as you think when you get it though.

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On 8/28/2019 at 5:45 PM, Silly said:

As a side note, I spent a few hours messing around with various strategies for LTC Chapter 1 on the BE route.

At this point I'm fairly convinced that getting a 5 turn clear in this chapter is impossible without getting a crit somewhere. The closest I've gotten without relying on a crit was a few damage short of a 5 turn, and that was with heavy optimization and enemy AI manipulation.

A 6 turn clear is not difficult though, and should be relatively reliable if you know what you're doing.

This roughly matches up with what other people think of the map on the BL/GD routes. A 6 turn clear is fairly reliable, whereas a 5 turn relies on some amount of low percentage RNG.

FWIW. A 5 turn does require a 19% critical hit on Dedue on turn2, or the Crest ability of Edelgard needs to activate. If not, he will survive this round, healing up next turn. Still not a deal breaker, but makes the clear MUCH easier.

Worst part is the last turn. Byleth needs to take down Claude on EP, with 50's hitrates. Next is killing Hilda with two axe hits, as worst as killing Claude. Byleth needs 15 strength for this.

Manuela should be killed by a bow hit of Edelgard, who can just reach her. She lured Hanneman last turn, so Ferdinand can kill him with Tempest Lance.

I did clear it twice now, the hitrates are the real deal breakers. I've seen many resets, even with 80's or 90's misses... luckily also some in my favour, killing Hilda keeps hunting me.

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