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3 Houses Tier List, HM, LTC vs Efficiency any Route.

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i see that the general consensus is 6 turns for chapter 1 because ending it in 5 turns requires a lot of luck with the RNG.

From what i'm reading i clearly see why, at least for a GD or BE route.

I feel that for the BL route isn't that insane tho, as in my strategy the hardest parts are hitting Claude with a 55% chance, hitting him again with a 74% and Felix avoiding at least one of the 3 attacks directed to him (an 88%, a 64% or a 93% that has 5 crit).

The other attacks that have to hit are pretty accurate, no crests actiations or critical hits required.

Now i don't know if someone has found an even more reliable way to do the chapter and it would require me a bit of efforts to show the strategy, but if someone is interested i can try to show it

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On 9/2/2019 at 3:44 PM, freforos said:

i see that the general consensus is 6 turns for chapter 1 because ending it in 5 turns requires a lot of luck with the RNG.

From what i'm reading i clearly see why, at least for a GD or BE route.

I feel that for the BL route isn't that insane tho, as in my strategy the hardest parts are hitting Claude with a 55% chance, hitting him again with a 74% and Felix avoiding at least one of the 3 attacks directed to him (an 88%, a 64% or a 93% that has 5 crit).

The other attacks that have to hit are pretty accurate, no crests actiations or critical hits required.

Now i don't know if someone has found an even more reliable way to do the chapter and it would require me a bit of efforts to show the strategy, but if someone is interested i can try to show it

I think someone managed to beat you to it quoted below, but required certain level ups. I think BE was possible as well as SSDenis posted earlier, though it sounded very unreliable (especially without divine pulse access at this point. GD might be impossible though, you don't really have great power options since you don't have Edelgard, Felix, or Annette in that route to power through it. Maybe with Male Blythe and Hilda's smash things might work out in 5 turns?

Reposting Silly's Link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jl0TjTVp32KyfZpEvTIEw9hjusQnyzgbOMEF5XSmYRk/edit?usp=sharing

 

As an aside updated the OP:

-Chapter 4 for GD is 2 turns.

-Sylvain's paralogue in 2 turns.

Chapter 7 can be done in 4 turns (Need a very optimized team tho).

I can go into details if anyone is interested.

Edited by OCDbox

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On 8/28/2019 at 11:37 PM, -Cynthia- said:

Having axes also means Ferdinand and Sylvain can more easily get Death Blow though, which cuts into the Str advantage significantly once that is online. Admittedly not on EP although personally I found Dimitri's EP combat pretty underwhelming due to Spd, at least where lategame promoted enemies were concerned. I suppose the core thing is that Ferdi/Sylvain generally have the tools to get PP kills themselves (Death Blow, Brave Axe/Swift Strikes, Hammer for armors etc.) so I question how much the Str lead practically comes into play outside of earlygame.

Felix is kind of a whole other deal- I think he's up there for having the strongest earlygame and being able to transition to Bow Knight but he has some other issues like durability.

 

 

On 8/28/2019 at 11:07 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I think it's a combination of huge Strength, high overall other stats (even with Paladin eating into his Spd, 60 base growth is really great and he gets that full advantage for a lot of the early levels, especially since he can easily go Myrmidon due to having a sword rank; and of course high Str has a slight positive effect on AS too). He can delete basically everything in the game that only has a single HP bar; Atrocity is an ultimate trump card (str+53 damage before skills and battalion is insane) but with his str/spd he often doesn't even need it. He also gets a big level boost during the timeskip? Not sure how it works, but that's what I saw.

It's a lot of combat advantages. I don't kneejerk Felix or Sylvain's combat being good enough to tier higher than him even with their easier flight access (which they don't even have until just before the timeskip), and certainly not Seteth or Catherine or Shamir. (As usual, I don't feel too strongly about his relative placement to non-Blue Lions natives.)

I'm not sure how to address this. At what point are people actually getting death blow and should that really be prioritized over getting more of things like shove/reposition earlier?

That being said I think there's something to consider given Dimitri is extremely strong without needing skills and A rank lances.

I think the strength lead Dimitri has is definitely relevant because it makes his enemy phase stronger during rout maps where you want to be wielding bows to clear everything (Sylvain's bow weakness is definitely a point against him, but he has other things to make up for it). This is also why I think Leonie is better than Ingrid for what it's worth.

Edited by OCDbox

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23 hours ago, OCDbox said:

I think someone managed to beat you to it quoted below, but required certain level ups. I think BE was possible as well as SSDenis posted earlier, though it sounded very unreliable (especially without divine pulse access at this point. GD might be impossible though, you don't really have great power options since you don't have Edelgard, Felix, or Annette in that route to power through it. Maybe with Male Blythe and Hilda's smash things might work out in 5 turns?

Reposting Silly's Link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jl0TjTVp32KyfZpEvTIEw9hjusQnyzgbOMEF5XSmYRk/edit?usp=sharing

 

This is very interesting, his strategy is surely more reliable than mine by a significant amount, the only vantage mine has is that doesn't require any stat benchmarks, but it's very minor.

I basically used his same team but Dedue instead of Ingrid/Sylvain (which i guess is already worse as Dedue will gain exp instead of one of them), the reason is because Dorothea prefers attacking him over Dimitri even if the former can counterattack (with an iron bow) and the latter can't. Dedue counterattacks her and the next turn he goes into the bush two tiles up where he can still attack with the bow and defeat her, in the same turn Dimitri goes one tile above him and take the bow so he can counterattack Hubert.

The same actually happens with Sylvain too, but he can't 2rko Dorothea so i went with Dedue.

We then went very different in solving the chapter, as my Dimitri won't be able to finish off Hilda for example because his level up in the prologue was +1 HP,  +1 DES and +1 LUCK and i don't like resetting for good level ups (it's more i don't have the patience), so i had to rely on a risky enemy phase with Felix

EDIT: i'd like to see the details for the other chapters you listed too, if isn't too much of a pain

Edited by freforos

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6 hours ago, freforos said:

This is very interesting, his strategy is surely more reliable than mine by a significant amount, the only vantage mine has is that doesn't require any stat benchmarks, but it's very minor.

I basically used his same team but Dedue instead of Ingrid/Sylvain (which i guess is already worse as Dedue will gain exp instead of one of them), the reason is because Dorothea prefers attacking him over Dimitri even if the former can counterattack (with an iron bow) and the latter can't. Dedue counterattacks her and the next turn he goes into the bush two tiles up where he can still attack with the bow and defeat her, in the same turn Dimitri goes one tile above him and take the bow so he can counterattack Hubert.

The same actually happens with Sylvain too, but he can't 2rko Dorothea so i went with Dedue.

We then went very different in solving the chapter, as my Dimitri won't be able to finish off Hilda for example because his level up in the prologue was +1 HP,  +1 DES and +1 LUCK and i don't like resetting for good level ups (it's more i don't have the patience), so i had to rely on a risky enemy phase with Felix

EDIT: i'd like to see the details for the other chapters you listed too, if isn't too much of a pain

These will eventually be updated to the topic I posted elsewhere and ended up in the let's play forum I guess...

 

Chapter 4: (note I'm leaving out the parts where Leonie and Hilda basically clear out the Left and Right sides on their own after getting rallies from Ignatz and Annette for exp)

Raphael needs B armor

Lysithea needs B faith

Turn 1:

  • Stride Byleth move 1 step behind the DK. Make sure Lysithea is 3 steps away
  • Smite Lorenz (who has stride)

Turn 2:

  • Stride Byleth
  • Warp Byleth over the Death Knight.
  • Kill boss with Byleth (really low benchmarks so not too hard).

Sylvain Paralogue: The Forgotten 2 Turns

Deploy: Blythe (peg), Sylvain (cav), Felix (cav), Shamir (sniper), Ingrid (peg), Leonie (cav) 

Claude (Brigand), Lysithea (mage), Flayn (monk), Catherine (Peg), Hilda (peg) 

Put Stride on Sylvain

Made a Steel Bow+ and Killer bow+ for Byleth; Byleth needs C bows

Turn 1:

Southside:

  • Stride Shamir, Leonie, Felix, and Byleth
  • Shamir heads west toward the archer corner
  • Felix and Leonie each take out a thief.
  • Byleth gets in the middle of the armor knight corner
  • Ingrid moves next to Sylvain

Northside:

  • Flayn rescues Lysithea forward
  • Lysithea heads west to the fighter corner and attacks the brawler (from 4 range)
  • Claude takes out a nearby mage in the mage corner of the northeast and gets in range of the dark mage
  • Hilda (mace+) and Catherine (steel lance+) move down

Enemy phase:

  • Shamir takes out all the archers of southwest
  • Claude takes out the mages in the north-east
  • Lysithia takes out the fighters in the northwest
  • Byleth clears all the enemies in the southeast (steel bow+)
  • Hilda kills a brigand and armor knight
  • Note: it's important enemies do not have less than 1/2 HP after this enemy phase because they will no longer aggro after the sectional miniboss dies.

Turn 2:

  • Needed a crit on the armor knight mini-boss with killer bow+.
  • The archer, fighter, and mage mini-bosses are reliably killable by Shamir, lysithea, and Claude respectively
  • Leonie heads northwest to kill another thief
  • Ingrid takes out a thief (thunderbrand)
  • Felix takes out a thief
  • Hilda finishes off the last thief

Enemy phase:

  • Clean up the last few enemies (2 mercenaries left)

 

Chapter 7: War of Eagle and Lions- 4 turns

Deploy: Claude, Byleth (peg), Lysithea (mage), Hilda (peg), Ignatz (cav), Ingrid (peg), Leonie (cav), Sylvain (cav), Petra (peg), Felix (cav)

Adjutants (for some extra hit): Marianne on Leonie, Raphael on Claude.

Need B armor on Hilda

Need B authority, C lances, D authority on Ignatz

Need the relic from Lorenz’s paralogue and the battlion from Sylvain’s paralogue

Turn 1: Everyone gets Stride turn 1

  • Byleth takes out the nearest Cav and canto's rightward. Hilda uses Smite so Byleth is in range of Ferdinand and one of the Pegasus knights.
  • Claude takes out the Cav blocking the ballista.
  • Lysithea takes out Bernie
  • Ingrid takes out the furthest Cav near the ballista
  • Left side: Felix and Leonie take out Ashe’s group after getting stride from Ignatz.

Turn 2:

  • Left side: Leonie moves in position to counter the Pegasus knight from 2 range (Steel bow). Felix and Ignatz follow behind
  • Right side: Set up another stride (I needed Warp and then Smite on Lysithea to get this position right). Take out Ferdinand.
  • Enemy phase: Pegasus knight dies to counter on Leonie.

Turn 3:

  • Left Side: Stride Felix and Leonie again.
  • Felix 1HKOs Annette (Steel lance+)
  • Leonie 1RKOs a Cav with a steel bow (Sylvain?) and is in position to 1RKO Mercedes on enemy phase
  • Right Side: Stride Byleth, Claude, Hilda, Ingrid, Petra, Lysithea
  • Petra heads in range of the last pegasus knight to the east (equipping a bow) as bait.
  • Claude takes out the thief (Petra’s replacement-needed a +hit battlion)
  • Byleth 1HKOs a mage (Dorothea) with Curved Shot Steel bow+. She is now in range of Caspar, Edelgard, Hubert and a generic Brigand.
  • Lysithea, Ingrid, and Hilda head upward toward Dedue’s armor brigade
  • Lysithea takes out the sword fighter (Felix)
  • Ingrid takes out a Cav.
  • Hilda equips a bow and baits the armors forward (they won’t use a gambit if you can’t counter them

Enemy phase: 

  • Byleth 1RKO Caspar, Hubert, Edelgard, and a generic brigand. My Byleth needed to dodge 1 out of the 4 attacks. Fortunately they all have around 40-60 ish % hit.
  • Felix is attacked by Dimitri (important because Leonie would die if Dimitri and Mercedes attacks her) and defeats a generic armor knight that attacked him.
  • Mercedes attacks Leonie and is 1RKO’d
  • The Pegasus attacks Petra equipped with a bow (for some reason this Pegasus knight will normally run away after Edelgard dies if you can counter it at all).
  • The armor knights are aggro’d by Hilda.

Turn 4:

  •  Byleth needs a curved shot critical kill on the priest (Linhardt) behind Edelgard because it won’t attack you on enemy phase ever and I can only reach it from 3 range (77 hit and ~39 crit with my Killer bow+).
  • Petra 1RKOs the Pegasus knight that attacked her on enemy phase.
  • Claude KOs a mage straggler that moved toward Byleth last enemy phase, but couldn't reach her.
  • Hilda and Ingrid kill the 2 armor knights that atteck Hilda and canto out of range of Dedue.
  • Lysithia kills the 3rd armor knight and is on the edge of Dedue’s range.
  • Leonie and Felix team up to kill Dimitri.
  • Ignatz can finish off the armor knight if Felix didn’t KO it on enemy phase.
  • Enemy phase: all that’s left is Dedue who suicides on Lysithea on enemy phase and a fighter that dies to Hilda.
Edited by OCDbox

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Reading this topic has been extremely interesting (and enlightening to some of the crunchier bits of the game), but I had a couple of questions.

First, I keep seeing the term "snowballing", but I'm not quite sure what it means in this particular context. I'm sure it's something simple that I should've been able to just infer, but I'm drawing a blank tonight.

And also, is there a listing somewhere of class progressions and skills/instruction one should be focusing on a character-by-character basis for those being used in a LTC run? There seems to be a lot of consensus on this tier list and the discussions seem to imply that those doing these sorts of runs (and discussing said list) are doing very similar builds, so I'm really curious to see something at least somewhat more comprehensive about that.

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11 minutes ago, Kinsei said:

First, I keep seeing the term "snowballing", but I'm not quite sure what it means in this particular context. I'm sure it's something simple that I should've been able to just infer, but I'm drawing a blank tonight.

Like a snowball. You make one in your palms. Lay it on a snowy area and begin to roll until the snow ball before is dwarfed by it's present state. Basically, a unit whose overall strength goes out of control the further you progress.

Edited by redlight

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I figured it had to be something like that, I just couldn't quite wrap my head around how a character would snowball like that. Perhaps I just don't yet have the right mindset for how skills and such fit together, as the only thing coming readily to mind is stat growths, which clearly isn't the only consideration.

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On 8/28/2019 at 4:31 PM, Zkirsche said:

Btw "all talk/boss interactions LTC" would be cool to see optimised.

I should try to find my “No Second Seals Lunatic. The Future Past. All Parent Convos. LTC” route sometime

10 hours ago, OCDbox said:

Sylvain Paralogue: The Forgotten 2 Turns

Deploy: Blythe (peg), Sylvain (cav), Felix (cav), Shamir (sniper), Ingrid (peg), Leonie (cav) 

Claude (Brigand), Lysithea (mage), Flayn (monk), Catherine (Peg), Hilda (peg) 

 

When you are doing Sylvain’s paralogue? I’m mainly curious because of Catherine, as depending when she hits flier is a big factor in her viability. Also, anyone know if it’s confirmed if she can be recruited in at lvl 7 in c4 with a c/+ support? Extra instruction weeks would obv help. 

_______________

Somewhat related wrt to (major) discrepancies in character evaluation among informed players. Annette: her earlygame combat is actually pretty solid due to Wind’s wt, and she has a nice niche with her personal and quick rally speed. Bolt Axe Wyvern apparently does work pretty well, and Crusher can bosskill. Also, she may be the best candidate for Blue Lion Dancers on a horse (and it's arguably better than warp). The other option would be Dimitri I guess? (who probably hits it earlier/more reliably but may want to be a flier). To clarify: S tier was suggested for her.

wrt to Dimitri: I’m not even sure his earlygame is all that due to 7 spd base. Felix’s 9 makes him the best earlygame combat, and even Sylvain’s 8 is more solid for reliability purposes. Ofc the bigger issue is difficulty to go wyvern, he can do it but it seems to take some rng (and if whiffed he may miss a lot of exp as other take over that role and get that rout or bosskill exp). 

Dimitri’s main advantages are: slight statistical lead due to personal and growths. Not sure how relevant, especially since it’s harder to hit spd benchmarks. 

more durability due to hp/def and personal avoid: may be relevant for some paralogues/quests or for stuff like the c14 2 turn. Sylvain has much earlier battalion vantage access though, nice against mages. Felix’s relic also seems to proc often, anecdotally, which is some ‘avoid’-equivalent. 

Atrocity: mainly notable for accuracy given how strong braves and swift strike are.

So it probably comes down reliability for early spd benchmarks, and various places where str advantage may matter (any obvious ones to come to mind?). I’m almost interested enough for a real analysis soon. >__>

5 hours ago, Kinsei said:

Reading this topic has been extremely interesting (and enlightening to some of the crunchier bits of the game), but I had a couple of questions.

First, I keep seeing the term "snowballing", but I'm not quite sure what it means in this particular context. I'm sure it's something simple that I should've been able to just infer, but I'm drawing a blank tonight.

And also, is there a listing somewhere of class progressions and skills/instruction one should be focusing on a character-by-character basis for those being used in a LTC run? There seems to be a lot of consensus on this tier list and the discussions seem to imply that those doing these sorts of runs (and discussing said list) are doing very similar builds, so I'm really curious to see something at least somewhat more comprehensive about that.

A snowball example could be Felix in BL, he has the best chance of onerounding enemies in some early routs, which lets him get some more exp which then furthers the statistical lead and makes him one of the best combat options throughout the game. Since he misses that start and autotrains near-useless sword/brawl in other routes, he’s far worse there.

Or like on paper Saber isn’t too different from other mercs in bases/growths but because he gets so much of a headstart he is dominant in practice. 

In FE there aren’t actually too many snowball-y characters though since usually it’s better to just use the prepromoted unit or other high base units and not rely on growths. The ests and trainees and villagers require too much investment to be efficient options, despite (sometimes) being pretty strong once they do get going. Marcia/Jill in Tellius (tho bexp is a factor there) or Seliph or Robin are probably the classic examples.

This topic has some of the best tactics documentation I’m aware of. In general I’m not sure about ‘consensus’ yet but rather it’s imo pretty obvious the general skeleton of efficient clears in this game given how strong flier/mobility options are, and the overwhelming number of bosskills in the story. I think the basics are get fliers (and cavs early), get warp (and other easy mobility boosts like smite/rescue/etc), get authority (for 2nd stride, dance, and retribution gambit). The details are more complicated and are still being figured out. 

Edited by XeKr

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9 hours ago, XeKr said:

I should try to find my “No Second Seals Lunatic. The Future Past. All Parent Convos. LTC” route sometime

When you are doing Sylvain’s paralogue? I’m mainly curious because of Catherine, as depending when she hits flier is a big factor in her viability. Also, anyone know if it’s confirmed if she can be recruited in at lvl 7 in c4 with a c/+ support? Extra instruction weeks would obv help. 

I did it on the last free day before chapter 7's main battle (because I needed a second Stride). I recruited Catherine the same time I recruited Felix and Petra which was during chapter 6. It didn't take much resources because I made sure to hit level 12 at that point and got her C support. She comfortably hit pegasus requirements before this deadline. 

Quote

_______________

Somewhat related wrt to (major) discrepancies in character evaluation among informed players. Annette: her earlygame combat is actually pretty solid due to Wind’s wt, and she has a nice niche with her personal and quick rally speed. Bolt Axe Wyvern apparently does work pretty well, and Crusher can bosskill. Also, she may be the best candidate for Blue Lion Dancers on a horse (and it's arguably better than warp). The other option would be Dimitri I guess? (who probably hits it earlier/more reliably but may want to be a flier). To clarify: S tier was suggested for her.

I'm not super impressed by the Frozen Lance/Bolt Axe/Soul Blade in practice because they are not strong enough to 1HKO enemies and are only usable from 1 range. Her enemy phase is not great as a Wyvern since she can't use magic. I'm not sure how viable it actually is TBH. I'm not sure just being able to get her to A authority is enough to move her to S tier though. I think she's comparable to the other C tier characters who offer movement and other utility, but not as viable at combat. I mean the ideal team will include 1-2 of the C tier characters just for support IMO. I think I probably have Bernie and Ashe too high though and will probably move them down.

Quote

wrt to Dimitri: I’m not even sure his earlygame is all that due to 7 spd base. Felix’s 9 makes him the best earlygame combat, and even Sylvain’s 8 is more solid for reliability purposes. Ofc the bigger issue is difficulty to go wyvern, he can do it but it seems to take some rng (and if whiffed he may miss a lot of exp as other take over that role and get that rout or bosskill exp). 

Dimitri’s main advantages are: slight statistical lead due to personal and growths. Not sure how relevant, especially since it’s harder to hit spd benchmarks. 

more durability due to hp/def and personal avoid: may be relevant for some paralogues/quests or for stuff like the c14 2 turn. Sylvain has much earlier battalion vantage access though, nice against mages. Felix’s relic also seems to proc often, anecdotally, which is some ‘avoid’-equivalent. 

Atrocity: mainly notable for accuracy given how strong braves and swift strike are.

So it probably comes down reliability for early spd benchmarks, and various places where str advantage may matter (any obvious ones to come to mind?). I’m almost interested enough for a real analysis soon. >__>

I think that's fair, I'm convinced since enough people brought it up that. The issue is, I'm not fully sure if Bow knight/Paladin is outright worse than flier as a movement type because you likely will want both types of movement for most maps since you don't have enough flier battlions for everyone to be a flier >_> (and bowflair). You're probably using bows anyway for route maps and durability does kind of matter for that. I also find speed benchmarks less difficult than strength ones around mid game, because enemies start weighing themselves down and becoming more durable. I also admit I'm not sure myself since I haven't properly done a BL LTC before and kind of extrapolated Dimitri would be about as good at that time I made Blythe a bow knight my first playthrough. That being said, his authority strength helps him from a utility angle though which characters in the tier below can't replicate.

Quote

A snowball example could be Felix in BL, he has the best chance of onerounding enemies in some early routs, which lets him get some more exp which then furthers the statistical lead and makes him one of the best combat options throughout the game. Since he misses that start and autotrains near-useless sword/brawl in other routes, he’s far worse there.

Or like on paper Saber isn’t too different from other mercs in bases/growths but because he gets so much of a headstart he is dominant in practice. 

In FE there aren’t actually too many snowball-y characters though since usually it’s better to just use the prepromoted unit or other high base units and not rely on growths. The ests and trainees and villagers require too much investment to be efficient options, despite (sometimes) being pretty strong once they do get going. Marcia/Jill in Tellius (tho bexp is a factor there) or Seliph or Robin are probably the classic examples.

This topic has some of the best tactics documentation I’m aware of. In general I’m not sure about ‘consensus’ yet but rather it’s imo pretty obvious the general skeleton of efficient clears in this game given how strong flier/mobility options are, and the overwhelming number of bosskills in the story. I think the basics are get fliers (and cavs early), get warp (and other easy mobility boosts like smite/rescue/etc), get authority (for 2nd stride, dance, and retribution gambit). The details are more complicated and are still being figured out. 

I will also admit, I biased myself with this list since it's from the perspective of someone who only LTC'd GD route. Felix is much worse there because he autoleveled poorly, but he's still one of the best recruits even then if you get him early enough (managed during chapter 6 for me). His bad authority eventually bites him though.

Edited by OCDbox

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15 hours ago, Kinsei said:

Reading this topic has been extremely interesting (and enlightening to some of the crunchier bits of the game), but I had a couple of questions.

First, I keep seeing the term "snowballing", but I'm not quite sure what it means in this particular context. I'm sure it's something simple that I should've been able to just infer, but I'm drawing a blank tonight.

And also, is there a listing somewhere of class progressions and skills/instruction one should be focusing on a character-by-character basis for those being used in a LTC run? There seems to be a lot of consensus on this tier list and the discussions seem to imply that those doing these sorts of runs (and discussing said list) are doing very similar builds, so I'm really curious to see something at least somewhat more comprehensive about that.

I only have insight for Golden Deer, but here is my playthrough by order of recruitment:

-Byleth (F):

  • Get Pegasus (before chapter 5)
  • Get C bows (after chapter 6)
  • Try to go for Wyvern but IMO you can stay in Peg if you want to focus on recruitment requirements/Authority
  • End in Falcon or Wyvern.
  • Male is similar, but you might want to just settle for Bow Knight (which has it's own advantages)

-Claude:

  • Reach 15 str/11 speed or 16 strength/10 Speed for chapter 3
  • Get C bows before chapter 3
  • Get requirements for brigand before chapter 5
  • Get to Wyvern pretimeskip

-Lysithea:

  • Get B Faith by chapter 4
  • Get 16 magic before chapter 5
  • Get Lorenz's paralogue weapon before chapter 7
  • Monk-->Mage-->Bishop-->Gremory-->Dark Knight (optional)

-Hilda:

  • Awaken armor strength skill by chapter 5
  • Get B armor by chapter 7
  • Pegasus-->Wyvern-->Wyvern
  • Get C bows/D authority at some point

-Leonie:

  • I went Cav-->Paladin-->Bowknight because I had too many fliers and needed a few cavs
  • Also never needs investment outside of goal setting which let me focus on other character benchmarks easier

-Raphael:

  • Get D authority during chapter 3
  • Get B armor before chapter 4
  • Brigand-->Wyvern (can stop here)-->Wyvern

-Ignatz:

  • Get D authority before week 1 of chapter 2
  • Get B authority/C lances/D riding (and level 10) before chapter 7 
  • Grab Sylvain's battlion before chapter 7
  • Cav (can stop here)-->Paladin-->Bow Knight

-Lorenz:

  • He was kind of just my stride bot for early game >_>

-Marianne:

  • Ended up as my Dancer, but had a good spell list that was sometimes helpful to have on a dancer.
  • Went Bishop at some point just for some stat boosts and changed back...

-Sylvain:

  • Recruited before chapter 5.
  • Prioritize getting A lances.
  • I went Cav-->Paladin-->Dark Knight (optionally)
  • Brigand-->Wyvern is a better option individually, but probably worse for your team overall.

-Felix:

  • Recruited before chapter 6
  • I went Cav-->Paladin-->Bow Knight
  • He was comparable to Leonie-more strength, less speed, durability, and authority
  • You also don't want to fight him as an enemy

-Petra:

  • Recruited before chapter 6 
  • I went Peg-->Wyvern-->Wyvern
  • She hit her stride after getting to C bows/D authority and Wyvern.
  • You also don't want to fight her as an enemy

-Catherine:

  • Recruited before chapter 6
  • I went Peg-->Falcon Knight
  • Pretty good once she hits C bows

-Flayn:

  • Save her a magic herb for 4 range rescue
  • I needed B faith/D reason before Sylvain's paralogue
  • Went Priest-->Monk-->Bishop-->Gremory (optional)

-Shamir:

  • Recruited before chapter 7
  • Went Peg-->Falcon Knight
  • Minimal investment, sometimes would reclass to sniper for certain maps (like the Sylvain or Sothis paralogue)

-Ingrid:

  • Recruited before chapter 7
  • Went Peg-->Falcon Knight
  • Minimal investment character. Kind of fell off at some point, but still useful.
  • Prioritize getting D authority early for rally magic (and a battlion) and C bows

-Lindhardt:

  • Recruited before chapter 7
  • Prioritize getting to A warp
  • Went Priest-->Monk-->Mage-->Bishop--> (Dark knight optional)

-Dorothea:

  • Recruited before chapter 7
  • Mainly so I didn't have to deal with her next chapter...
  • Prioritize C Physic and A reason for someone who has some interesting utility
  • Went Mage-->Monk-->Warlock-->Gremory

-Manuela:

  • Recruited before chapter 8
  • Went Monk-->Bishop
  • Prioritized A Faith
  • Kind of okay with a Levin sword if she needed to kill something

-Hanneman:

  • Recruited before chapter 8
  • Honestly just here for a stridebot during his paralogue
  • Prioritized A+ Reason
  • Went Mage-->Monk-->Warlock

-Ferdinand:

  • Recruited before chapter 8
  • Prioritized C bows then B lances/Riding. Then A lances for the combat art.
  • Went Cav-->Paladin-->Bow Knight
  • Good filler. 

Mercedes (she okay I guess), Caspar, Bernie, Ashe, Cyril, Alois are kind of just there for the paralogue and research purposes and recruited at the last possible month. I didn't recruit Annette...though she probably would have been somewhat more useful than the above.

-Seteth

  • Wyvern-->Wyvern
  • Prioritized C bows
  • Good filler.
Edited by OCDbox

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3 hours ago, OCDbox said:

I did it on the last free day before chapter 7's main battle (because I needed a second Stride). I recruited Catherine the same time I recruited Felix and Petra which was during chapter 6. It didn't take much resources because I made sure to hit level 12 at that point and got her C support. She comfortably hit pegasus requirements before this deadline. 

Since Catherine’s bases are floored by SM class, but her lvl isn’t, it seems to make sense to recruit her asap insofar as Byleth level and available gifts allow. I know chapter 5 is possible, and heard chapter 4 is. If it takes about a month to Pegasus that’s fine, and if it’s early enough it seems she should hit Falcon too (you think she will with c6-recruit without rigging a promo?). 55/65 are also quite good str/spd growths when you consider she already has 17/14 personal at lvl 7 or 9.

Quote

I'm not super impressed by the Frozen Lance/Bolt Axe/Soul Blade in practice because they are not strong enough to 1HKO enemies and are only usable from 1 range. Her enemy phase is not great as a Wyvern since she can't use magic. I'm not sure how viable it actually is TBH. I'm not sure just being able to get her to A authority is enough to move her to S tier though. I think she's comparable to the other C tier characters who offer movement and other utility, but not as viable at combat. I mean the ideal team will include 1-2 of the C tier characters just for support IMO. I think I probably have Bernie and Ashe too high though and will probably move them down.

Valk who is LTCing BL right now put her in S, I believe for a combination of reasons that just work out.
- Her early combat is actually good because of Wind and ignoring terrain avoid + hitting res is a rare thing early. I have not checked the spd benchmarks but I may if this remains contentious (because yeah, like no one seems to put her in S) 
- Wyvern bases actually let her do a lot of standard wyvern things from just the str+spd bases (+other bonuses). Bolt Axe (the Levin equivalent, not an art) also helps in a few cases for 1-3 when Retribution is elsewhere, or if the range is needed on pp (makes her a unique bow wyvern that hits res kinda). It also allows some things like the clean oneround on C12’s boss, which is otherwise hard due to the boss def (need a crit?). Also Crusher is kinda strong, for example base mag Annette can ohko Claude in c17. 
- Overall her combat actually kinda stand out at all stages, which is kinda rare in this game. 
- Rally Str + Spd enables a lot of early kills. She singlehandedly makes Felix Felix, basically. (it might be partially a meme but people are putting crossrecruit Felix in bottom because of missing his godtier earlygame and since sword/brawl is just that bad). While there are other rallybots, they don’t have both, don’t have her combat, and aren’t in BL natively for the dance gambit.
- Dance gambit is insane since stride lasts after it, and there’s basically nothing impeding fliers postskip. Therefore it’s basically a 13 range warp for 4 characters simultaneously (it's kinda even more broken than that because you can refresh the dancer lol). This facilitates many of the more nontrivial lowturns and makes then even more reliable, and may allow some gardening to be diverted to str/spd as well. While others can do A authority D/B Lance D/B riding, Dimitri needs to focus Axes far more if he wants to fly, and it surely feels more convenient to level authority on a unit that’s actually doing other stuff. And in no cross-recruit categories there really aren’t that many options period. 

It seems the common, and my own, impression, was the same as yours (decent chip and support) but that’s what makes things interesting. I haven't had the time to really look into or discuss these kinds of things but it's rare you see these huge difference in opinion like for Catherine and Annette so I felt compelled to comment.

3 hours ago, OCDbox said:

I think that's fair, I'm convinced since enough people brought it up that. The issue is, I'm not fully sure if Bow knight/Paladin is outright worse than flier as a movement type because you likely will want both types of movement for most maps since you don't have enough flier battlions for everyone to be a flier >_> (and bowflair). You're probably using bows anyway for route maps and durability does kind of matter for that. I also find speed benchmarks less difficult than strength ones around mid game, because enemies start weighing themselves down and becoming more durable. I also admit I'm not sure myself since I haven't properly done a BL LTC before and kind of extrapolated Dimitri would be about as good at that time I made Blythe a bow knight my first playthrough. That being said, his authority strength helps him from a utility angle though which characters in the tier below can't replicate.

I will also admit, I biased myself with this list since it's from the perspective of someone who only LTC'd GD route. Felix is much worse there because he autoleveled poorly, but he's still one of the best recruits even then if you get him early enough (managed during chapter 6 for me). His bad authority eventually bites him though.

dw everyone is still figuring things out but this discussion and stuff is good. You seem to value bows a lot, maybe because you’re doing all quests? Though BL gets at least 2 Retribution gambits and 1-3 mag weapons work on fliers (Bolt Axe Annette still sounds like a meme but again apparently it works), so not really sure Bow Knights are ultimately that useful. The big picture issue is the story maps which are not optional, are all bosskill and are basically all 1 turns. While Bow Knights can replicate some of it, a fleet of fliers does seem more useful.

Edited by XeKr

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1 hour ago, XeKr said:

Since Catherine’s bases are floored by SM class, but her lvl isn’t, it seems to make sense to recruit her asap insofar as Byleth level and available gifts allow. I know chapter 5 is possible, and heard chapter 4 is. If it takes about a month to Pegasus that’s fine, and if it’s early enough it seems she should hit Falcon too (you think she will with c6-recruit without rigging a promo?). 55/65 are also quite good str/spd growths when you consider she already has 17/14 personal at lvl 7 or 9.

Only problem is getting her too early she will be too low of a level to reach Peg instantly. Not really a big deal either way. I just waited to 6 because I didn't need her until 7.

Quote

Valk who is LTCing BL right now put her in S, I believe for a combination of reasons that just work out.
- Her early combat is actually good because of Wind and ignoring terrain avoid + hitting res is a rare thing early. I have not checked the spd benchmarks but I may if this remains contentious (because yeah, like no one seems to put her in S) 
- Wyvern bases actually let her do a lot of standard wyvern things from just the str+spd bases (+other bonuses). Bolt Axe (the Levin equivalent, not an art) also helps in a few cases for 1-3 when Retribution is elsewhere, or if the range is needed on pp (makes her a unique bow wyvern that hits res kinda). It also allows some things like the clean oneround on C12’s boss, which is otherwise hard due to the boss def (need a crit?). Also Crusher is kinda strong, for example base mag Annette can ohko Claude in c17. 
- Overall her combat actually kinda stand out at all stages, which is kinda rare in this game. 
- Rally Str + Spd enables a lot of early kills. She singlehandedly makes Felix Felix, basically. (it might be partially a meme but people are putting crossrecruit Felix in bottom because of missing his godtier earlygame and since sword/brawl is just that bad). While there are other rallybots, they don’t have both, don’t have her combat, and aren’t in BL natively for the dance gambit.
- Dance gambit is insane since stride lasts after it, and there’s basically nothing impeding fliers postskip. Therefore it’s basically a 13 range warp for 4 characters simultaneously (it's kinda even more broken than that because you can refresh the dancer lol). This facilitates many of the more nontrivial lowturns and makes then even more reliable, and may allow some gardening to be diverted to str/spd as well. While others can do A authority D/B Lance D/B riding, Dimitri needs to focus Axes far more if he wants to fly, and it surely feels more convenient to level authority on a unit that’s actually doing other stuff. And in no cross-recruit categories there really aren’t that many options period. 

It seems the common, and my own, impression, was the same as yours (decent chip and support) but that’s what makes things interesting. I haven't had the time to really look into or discuss these kinds of things but it's rare you see these huge difference in opinion like for Catherine and Annette so I felt compelled to comment.

-I'm not sure this is that true, barely anyone except lords, Felix and maybe Leonie/Petra will be 1RKOing until around chapter 5.

-Bolt Axe also has 15 weight...which unless she is 1hkoing enemies isn't a good way to do enemy phase. Annette is not fast enough to overcome that with a good speed growth (unless you rig I guess). There's also the issue of getting to level 20 to begin with. Is the progression Mage-->Wyvern? 

-I'm not sure, but I'll have to study this closer. I'm open to the idea though.

-I think Felix isn't that bad with cross recruit; I think it's hard to justify starting him from scratch, but it's easier to make up weapon levels for a combatant than it is to make  up stats for benchmarks. I still got Felix to Cav before Sylvain's paralogue after recruiting him in chapter 6 for what it's worth. Swords also give him valid weapons to use like Armorslayer that lances and Bows don't give him.

-I'm still not fully clear how she is being used? Aren't blue Lion Dancers a ground battlion? Is she training in lances/riding too be to a cav? It also has heavy attack penalties so I guess she isn't using it full time?

-I do agree it is interesting. I think it depends on benchmarks, but I'll keep an open mind. I already raised her from like E to C so we'll see.  

Quote

dw everyone is still figuring things out but this discussion and stuff is good. You seem to value bows a lot, maybe because you’re doing all quests? Though BL gets at least 2 Retribution gambits and 1-3 mag weapons work on fliers (Bolt Axe Annette still sounds like a meme but again apparently it works), so not really sure Bow Knights are ultimately that useful. The big picture issue is the story maps which are not optional, are all bosskill and are basically all 1 turns. While Bow Knights can replicate some of it, a fleet of fliers does seem more useful.

Some of the paralogues are not boss kill though and same for most the quests (which I do agree is a borderline if they should be considered or not); I'm just doing them for research I guess. 

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