Best Classes of your Students (and Faculty) Encore: Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude

[timon]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm a bit confused by this comment. Black Tomefaire Excalibur (from either Warlock or Dark Knight) has more might than non-Tomefaire Abraxas, and is much lighter. Gremory is not the class you go to for killing power.

Yeah it might be biased by NG+ experience, when I used Annette I got Abraxas quite early and it was a bit before I got to Warlock and tomefaire, so I found it to be considerably stronger.

Either way, power won't be her selling point imo (I'm not sure she has one), even Excalibur is not really that good except for the Pegasus/Falcon mass reinforcements later on.

Edited September 1, 2019 by timon

[ApocaLips]

37 minutes ago, freewaffles said:

The only real reason to use Holy Knight over Dark Knight is Silence and Terrain Immunity. You're taking her to C reason and C faith no matter what for Thoron, Fiendish Blow, and Physic. The question then becomes whether you want Aura, Silence, Terrain Immunity, and +5 damage on nosferatu or Cutting Gale, Fimbulvetr, and +5 damage on blizzard/thoron. Fimbulvetr is better than Aura in every single stat except for hit, where it is only 5 off.  Cutting Gale is mediocre, but Silence can be picked up later without much effort, and the +5 damage on her bread and butter offense spells, including her only 3-range spell, is clearly useful.

Good analysis, but some additional considerations noted above. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by ApocaLips

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

Linhardt: I suppose I can just leave him at Bishop. Everything he is supposed to do, he’ll do anyway. Maybe only pick Holy Knight if you think Stride is in the way of him using Warp effectively, I guess. Depends on your play style.

Annette: I will personally vouch for DK. If you do not focus on Reason and just get Lances up to C, that should give you at least some room to work on Reason, Riding, and Authority. I want to ask if Bolt Axe+ provides 1-3 range though, not just Levin Sword+. Though, on BL, I would just give her the Caduceus Staff anyway, so it’s not like she would normally have problems with 1-3 range. Still, DK provides a mount and Black Tomefaire. That should be enough to justify that.

Marianne: I suppose most of the time, I probably would make her a Dark Knight as well. Her Reason list is actually good, though, and makes a case to use the Caduceus staff as well (at least on GD). Might only be good to raise Faith to A on BL, considering that it is the only path associated with the high amount of siege tomes. Otherwise, just raise Faith to C and go the Mage route. This was pretty eye-opening for me, will certainly try this come my Hard mode playthroughs. Same for Annette.

Voting for Mercedes, Lorenz, and Catherine for next round.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Azure, Roundabouted Out

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, timon said:

Either way, power won't be her selling point imo (I'm not sure she has one)

Let me post a quick comparison. Lysithea vs Annette, aka apparently the best mage in the game vs the worst, lv 20, as Warlocks. No battalions, Fiendish blow obtained and counted. Also I added the lv 4 reason prowess for accuracy.

Annette: 30 HP, 11 Str, 24 Mag, 18 Dex, 15 Spd, 12 Lck, 12 Def, 15 Res, 13 Cha.
Lysithea: 30 HP, 8 Str, 26 Mag, 19 Dex, 17 Spd, 10 Lck, 12 Def, 15 Res, 10 Cha

Annete's stats with Wind: 37 Atk, 15 AS, 131 Acc, 25 Crit, 24 Uses
Lysithea's stats with Miasma: 37 Atk, 13 AS, 110 Acc, 14 Crit, 10 Uses

Annette's stats with Excalibur: 46 Atk, 8 AS, 131 Acc, 30 Crit, 8 Uses
Lysithea's stats with Hades: 50 Atk, 0 AS, 95 Acc, 24 Crit, 2 Uses

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Cysx

[ApocaLips]

24 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Let me post a quick comparison. Lysithea vs Annette, aka apparently the best mage in the game vs the worst, lv 20, as Warlocks. No battalions, Fiendish blow obtained and counted.

Annette: 30 HP, 11 Str, 24 Mag, 18 Dex, 15 Spd, 12 Lck, 12 Def, 15 Res, 13 Cha.
Lysithea: 30 HP, 8 Str, 26 Mag, 19 Dex, 17 Spd, 10 Lck, 12 Def, 15 Res, 10 Cha

Annete's stats with Wind: 37 Atk, 15 AS, 131 Acc, 25 Crit, 24 Uses
Lysithea's stats with Miasma: 37 Atk, 13 AS, 110 Acc, 14 Crit, 10 Uses

Annette's stats with Excalibur: 46 Atk, 8 AS, 131 Acc, 30 Crit, 8 Uses
Lysithea's stats with Hades: 50 Atk, 0 AS, 95 Acc, 24 Crit, 2 Uses

 

I agree that lysithea is overrated for many reasons, but this comparison doesn’t really say much. I think we’re all aware that warlock has good bases, and warlock’s base speed is offsetting Anette’s bad speed growth here and is warping this comparison. As is this being the only period where black tomefaire is available but dark tomefaire is not. Even with that, five to ten levels in either direction will reflect a disparity as lysithea’s superior growths take over. 

I’ll also note that the level 20-30 range is the shortest due to time skip exp, so having an advantage here is the least worthwhile of any specific period, and most mages hit a trough here anyway and need some babying because they can have a hard time keeping up with advanced tier mounted classes. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by ApocaLips

[timon]

3 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Let me post a quick comparison. Lysithea vs Annette, aka apparently the best mage in the game vs the worst, lv 20, as Warlocks. No battalions, Fiendish blow obtained and counted.

Annette: 30 HP, 11 Str, 24 Mag, 18 Dex, 15 Spd, 12 Lck, 12 Def, 15 Res, 13 Cha.
Lysithea: 30 HP, 8 Str, 26 Mag, 19 Dex, 17 Spd, 10 Lck, 12 Def, 15 Res, 10 Cha

Annete's stats with Wind: 37 Atk, 15 AS, 131 Acc, 25 Crit, 24 Uses
Lysithea's stats with Miasma: 37 Atk, 13 AS, 110 Acc, 14 Crit, 10 Uses

Annette's stats with Excalibur: 46 Atk, 8 AS, 131 Acc, 30 Crit, 8 Uses
Lysithea's stats with Hades: 50 Atk, 0 AS, 95 Acc, 24 Crit, 2 Uses

I'm not sure Lysithea is the best mage? It's a complicated debate, surely she's the most powerful by endgame, but she's also screwed until there due to the Dark/Black differentiation.

tbh up until master classes I'm not sure who'd be considered the best mage, if we look only at power the two with the most Mag are also Dark Mages, which means no tomefaire.

That said I don't think Annette is up there, at least judging not only from my experience but also from a lot of tier lists I've seen. 30 Str is slightly better than your average mage, but she also has slightly worse speed than average, so AS is on par with the others. I just wish they'd put Excalibur at B and give her some other nuke spell at A, she'd surely be much more useful. I just feel like Excalibur is not a spell worth the A rank, 4 Mt less than Ragnarok for just one point of Wt, doesn't sound like a great trade to me. The flying effectivness would also be a lot more relevant if she'd get it earlier at B since you're probably not yet to full squad bow/wyverns (which make pegasus enemies trivial).

[Cysx]

21 minutes ago, ApocaLips said:

I agree that lysithea is overrated for many reasons, but this comparison doesn’t really say much. I think we’re all aware that warlock has good bases, and warlock’s base speed is offsetting Anette’s bad speed growth here and is warping this comparison. Five to ten levels in either direction will reflect a disparity as lysithea’s growths take over. 

I’ll also note that the level 20-30 range is the shortest due to time skip exp (so having an advantage here is the least worthwhile of any specific period), and most mages hit a trough here because they can have a hard time keeping up with advanced tier mounted classes. 

Actually Annette's average speed at level 20 is 13.65 normally. So she does get a small boost(to 14) but it's not massive. And I think your growth argument doesn't really work that well; at level 40, Lysithea will be two points higher in magic, and 3 in speed. Annette will have reaches 15 Str and Lysithea 10, making the AS difference 2 as well(Edit: Incorrect, it's 3). So sure, a difference happens but yeah.

It's true that tier 3 is among the shortest, though. I just think it's nice posting numbers in cases like this. This is not claiming that Annette is a better character, she isn't. Well, probably not, anyway.

13 minutes ago, timon said:

I just wish they'd put Excalibur at B and give her some other nuke spell at A, she'd surely be much more useful. I just feel like Excalibur is not a spell worth the A rank, 4 Mt less than Ragnarok for just one point of Wt, doesn't sound like a great trade to me. The flying effectivness would also be a lot more relevant if she'd get it earlier at B since you're probably not yet to full squad bow/wyverns (which make pegasus enemies trivial).

Ragnarok is amazing, there's no use denying it; however, +10 Accuracy, -1 Wt, +10 Crit, +1 use... those aren't worth the drop but they're still pretty significant; regardless, it's so easy to stack MAtk that she still OHKOs the same as Ragnarok mages in a majority of cases, we'll see how it is with harder difficulties. As for pegs, from experience Excalibur with Thyrsus is a much better idea than bows, because it can OHKO from 4 or 5 range with ~100 accuracy. Pegs have high avoid, so bow users typically need to get closer, which is not always practical/possible. And Wyvern Lords need to straight up melee.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Cysx

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Azure, Roundabouted Out said:

I want to ask if Bolt Axe+ provides 1-3 range though, not just Levin Sword+

It does. But that 15 weight makes me recommend against it.

[Flere210]

It's not just weight, it's weight, accuracy,crit and uses. And has flying bonus. 

You are not going to see many cases of enemies surviving whit exactly 1-4 hp,  and if it's the case, there are many ways to get an additional 1-4 damage. And in Annette case, when it happen you just use Crusher.

 

Looking just at the growths, at level 40 Annette would be 4 point shorts of magic and 6 points short of speed compared to Lysithea, completely ignoring any other stat.

-Magic won't be relevant because Lys want Gremory and Annette Dark Knight, wich has 3 more magic due to tomefaire.

-Might seems the biggest advantage on lys. 18 hades vs 11 excalibur is big, but Hades vs Crushers is equal. Other high might options if you are not on BL would be combat arts whit bolt axe. Sure those things are melee, but on a DK is not a problem because lolcanto.

-speed is partyally taken away by weight. Lysithea can barely reach 15, Annette has a shot at 20, and mostly use lighter weapons. The true difference in speed between them will usually be very small.

If lysithea can nuke it, Annette can do that too. And Dust is the largest non effective nuke.

Annette problem was never the lack of power,  is the lack of range and utility. Wich is also the reason why Lysithea is overrated as a nuker and her true steenght lies in warp.

[-Cynthia-]

Lysithea's nuking and Warping kind of go hand-in-hand- being able to OHKO most enemies means she can more easily gain Exp, which gives her more levelups, more Mag, and a higher Warp range.

[CyberNinja]

30 minutes ago, -Cynthia- said:

Lysithea's nuking and Warping kind of go hand-in-hand- being able to OHKO most enemies means she can more easily gain Exp, which gives her more levelups, more Mag, and a higher Warp range.

Lys is also going to access her higher tier sells far sooner than anyone else, you can have her focus solely on faith and keep her reason in line just through combat so she'll be immediately useful before other mages even if she lacks late game utility beyond warp.

[Cysx]

34 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

Lys is also going to access her higher tier sells far sooner than anyone else, you can have her focus solely on faith and keep her reason in line just through combat so she'll be immediately useful before other mages even if she lacks late game utility beyond warp.

Assuming you are referring to her P.skill here... I'd say it is mostly useful to get class skills before everyone else, and she's the only unit that can realistically pick up two blows between level 10-20. If combat gets your odd unit 3 exp in their weapon of choice, and they fight 10 times in a chapter(which is highly generous for a squishy mage) for 30 exp early on, that's still less than one session of tutoring, which you get 2.5 of plus the same amount of personal studies per month(which also grant around 30 each). Multiplying combat weapon exp by 2, while nice, still doesn't make that value your main source of weapon levels by a long shot, and thus she cannot really build up a massive lead thanks to it, outside of like, authority... or faith if you play slowly.

... things are a bit different if you're spamming auxiliary battles, but in that case nothing matters since you're overleveled anyway.

[LegendOfLoog]

I don't have any particular strong leanings with Lindhardt, but I think Bishop wins. Lindhardt's offenses aren't terrible, but usually you're using him as a healbot + warper. As a Holy Knight, he has less healing and half uses on all his faith spells in exchange for Terrain Resistance, 4 higher move, and White Tomefaire. I don't think the extra investment into raising his Riding is worth what you end up with. 

On the other hand, Marianne doesn't have any particularly great utility spells like Lindhardt and comes with a strength in Riding, so keeping up with the rest of the group and having the occasional Aura for use seems more useful than her contributions as a Physic only character. Also ties into her personal, but she shouldn't be taking damage anyway. Holy Knight is probably her best bet overall. 

Annette is actually pretty interesting. I decided to do something similar to the Sylvain Dark Knight vs Paladin analysis, but this time I've included Battalions, Magic Wand, and Dismount bonuses into the calculations, so it should be fairly accurate. The build paths are Monk-> PegKnight/Mage -> Wyvern Rider/Warlock -> Wyvern Lord/Dark Knight. The skill set for Dark Knight is Movement +1, Black Magic Range +1, Mag +2, Fiendish Blow, and Reason Prowess Lvl 5. The skill set for Wyvern Lord is Mag +2, Darting Blow, Axe Prowess Level 5, and whatever for the last two skill slots. Alert Stance+, Rally Speed, and Rally Resistance are probably the most useful here, but they aren't really important.

 I don't think Gremory is really worth looking at because her Faith spell list is just more damage and Recover, but there's absolutely no reason to go to A rank in Faith for Abraxas. If you include Class Mods, Class skills, and the actual spell Mt of Excalibur and Abraxas, Excalibur is 18 in Dark Knight vs Abraxas' 19 in Gremory. Losing 3 Move and 5 Weight for 1 extra Mt on your nuke spell is not even close to worth it. As a result, the comparison will begin around Chapter 6, the first story map where there's a split in usage. The midgame is fairly uninteresting as pretty much everything has terrible Resistance, so there's no huge difference in combat potential there. Then, there will be a Chapter 22 comparison. I'll start by saying that Annette can theoretically one round everything, mostly thanks to Dust, regardless of which path you go here. So the score will be based on how many KOs on Player Phase rely on using it.

Spoiler

Chapter 6 Performance: Blue Lions Hard Mode

Level 12 Pegasus Knight Annette - 26.3 HP, 9.3 Str, 16.5 Mag, 12.5(+2) Dex, 11.05(+3) Spd, 9.85 Lck, 7.2 Def, 7.65 Res, 10.5(+2) Cha

Damage Calcs: These will all be Lightning Axe Calculations because Annette’s strength is too bad at this point in the game to reliably one round anything with a normal attack. For reference, the formula for Lightning Axe is Mag + Weapon Mt + 4 Extra Mt + Res/4 (rounded up). Also, it’s unlikely that either have Mag+2 at this point because they would rather build toward their respective Blow skills, so I won’t factor it in. Bolded numbers are where the RNG leans toward in a range, and if there isn’t one, it’s in the middle.  

Iron Axe+: 16-17 Mag + 9 Mt + 4 Extra Mt + 2 = 31-32 Mag Atk at 8-10 AS 
Steel Axe+: 22-23 + 13 Mt = 35-36 Mag Atk at 3-5 AS
Training Axe+: 22-23 + 6 Mt = 28-29 Mag Atk at 11-13 AS

Level 12 Mage Annette - 26.1 HP, 9.2 Str, 16.7(+1) Mag, 12.6(+1) Dex, 10.85 Spd, 9.85 Lck, 7.1 Def, 7.65(+2) Res, 10.4 Cha

Annette should be somewhere around a C+ or B in Reason at this point in the game, so I’ll measure her damage through Cutting Gale and Wind. She could also have Lightning Axe at this, but it doesn’t really build toward either of the magic classes she’ll go into, Dark Knight and Gremory, so I’ll assume she doesn’t. Also, it’s a reasonable assumption that she has at least maxed out the Seiros Magic Corps which gives +3 Magic Atk. 

Wind: 17-18 Mag + 2 Mt + 3 Battalion = 22-23 Mag Atk at 9-11 AS 
Fire: 20-21 + 3 Mt = 23-24 Mag Atk at 8-10 AS
Cutting Gale: 20-21 + 7 Mt = 27-28 Mag Atk at 6-8 AS. Sagittae has the same Mt but 1 more Weight. 

At this point in the game, the only significant increase in Magic is from the Spirit Dust from Chapter 4. For here, I’ll consider each version of Annette and their ability to ORKO. 

3x Myrmidon - 29 HP, 4 Res, 10 AS

Neither Annette will double. Mage Annette deals 24 damage with Cutting Gale. PK!Annette one-shots with a Lightning Axe while Steel Axe+ is equipped. 3-0 PK | Mage

3x Soldier - 29 HP, 7 AS, 4 Res

Annette trends toward 10 AS with Wind, so she will not double on average. PK!Annette one-shots. 6-0 PK | Mage

6x Archer - 29 HP, 8 AS, 5 Res    1x Archer - 29 HP, 20 Atk, 3 AS, 5 Res

Similar to the Soldiers. Wind doesn’t double, and Lightning Axe still one rounds. The 3 AS Archer with a Steel Bow is one rounded by both. 13-1 PK | Mage

2x Armored Knight - 33 HP, 1 AS, 3 Res    1x Armored Knight - 33 HP, 0 AS, 3 Res

Lightning Axe has a 50/50 chance here to one-shot on average. Spirit Dust secures it. Mage!Annette one rounds safely with Wind. 13-3 PK | Mage

1x Cavalier - 31 HP, 7 AS, 5 Res    1x Cavalier - 31 HP, 3 AS, 7 Res

Lightning Axe has a 50/50 chance again to one round the first Cav and has a 50/50 chance to one round the second even with Spirit Dust. Mage!Annette ORKOs the second with Cutting Gale but doesn’t usually double the first. 13-4 PK | Mage

2x Mage - 29 HP, 10 AS, 11 Res    1x Dark Mage - 29 HP, 10 AS, 10 Res

Neither Annette is able to one round the mages. Final Score: 13-4 PK | Mage

At least on their first respective maps, Pegasus Knight has a better showing overall. In order to one round consistently this early in the game, Mage Annette would also need Lightning Axe, but if you go that route, you take away important investment that could be put into Faith for Gremory and healing skills, Riding for Dark Knight, or Authority for Rallies and better Battalions. Mage Annette does more damage if she doubles, but she rarely does, and in exchange she loses flight and 2 move. She does have a better Enemy Phase, but generally Mages shouldn’t be seeing much of that because of their poor bulk. 

Chapter 22: Level 43 Dark Knight vs Wyvern Lord

Wyvern Lord Annette - 44.65 HP, 27.85(+4) Str, 30.85 Mag, 28(+1) Dex, 24(+4) Spd, 
20.7 Lck, 17.75(+3) Def, 16.85 Res, 23.3 Cha, 8 Mov

At this point, I’ll assume both Annettes have access to a +7 Battalion and the Magic Wand. Magic Wand increases the damage output of Lightning Axe, Bolt Axe, and Crusher, so I’ll use it in the calculations. Also, the AS calcs for Dark Knight will include Dismount bonuses.

Iron Axe+: 9 Mt + 31-32 Str + 5 Axefaire + 7 Battalion = 52-53 Atk at 27 AS (+6)
Training Axe+: 43-44 + 6 Mt = 49-50 Atk at 28 AS (+6) 
Silver Axe+: 43-44 + 17 Mt = 60-61 Atk at 24 AS (+6)
Brave Axe+: 43-44 + 13 Mt = 56-57 Atk x2 at 20 AS (+6)
Bolt Axe+: 30-31(+2) Mag + 14 Mt + 5 Axefaire + 3 Wand= 54-55 Mag Atk at 19 AS (+6)
Crusher: 18 Mt + 40-41 = 58-59 Mag Atk at 23 AS (+6) 

L!Axe Silver Axe+: 4 Extra Mt + 17 Mt + 40-41 + 4-5 Res Mt = 65-67 Mag Atk
Dust: 20 Extra Mt + 18 Mt + 40-41 = 78-79 Mag Atk

Dark Knight Annette - 39.05 HP, 19.75 Str, 36.3(+2) Mag, 28.5(+2) Dex, 20.4(+1) Spd, 20.7 Lck, 18.75 Def, 26.7 Res, 22.8 Cha, 8 Mov 

Wind: 2 Mt + 38-39(+2) Mag + 3 Wand + 7 Battalion + 5 Faire = 57-58 Mag Atk (+6) at 21-22 AS
Cutting Gale: 7 Mt + 55-56 = 62-63 Mag Atk (+6) at 19-21 AS
Excalibur: 11 Mt + 55-56 = 66-67 Mag Atk (+6) at 16-18 AS
Dust: 20 Extra Mt + 18 Mt + 50-51 = 88-89 Mag Atk (+6)

Now for the enemies. 

5x Mortal Savant - 51 HP, 26 Prt, 26 Res, 17-23 AS        

DK!Annette can double the one with 17 AS with Wind and ORKO. The next lowest needs 23 AS which she will probably not have. Excalibur has 73 Mag Atk at best, so she misses out on oneshots by 4 points of Magic. Wyvern Annette has enough damage with Dust to one shot them, as does DK!Annette. Wyvern Annette can also one round them with Crusher, Bolt Axe+, or the Silver Axe+ normally. Dust Reliant KO: 4-0 Dark Knight | Wyvern Lord

8x Mortal Savant - 51 HP, 30 Prt, 33 Res, 16-23 AS

DK!Annette can again one round the three with 16 AS, but the others are out of doubling range. She needs Dust to one shot them. Wyvern Annette misses by 2 points on the Dust one shot, but she ORKOs them with a Silver Axe+. Dust Reliant KO: 9-0 Dark Knight | Wyvern Lord

12x Gremory - 46 HP, 12-22 AS, 22 Prt, 39 Res

The two Gremories with 12 AS are easy to one round. DK!Annette can only one-shot the 22 AS Gremories with Dust. If she’s on the higher end of the AS scale, she can one round the 18 AS Gremories with Wind, but it’s not decisive, so she needs Dust to guarantee a win. Wyvern Annette one-rounds all of them with any of her physical axes, but it’s worth noting they get very close to one-shotting her if they can retaliate. Using the Brave Axe+ is recommended here. Dust Reliant KO: 19-0 Dark Knight | Wyvern Lord

9x War Master - 62 HP, 29-36 AS, 31 Prt, 10 Res    2x with 39 Prt, 12 Res

DK!Annette very narrowly one shots the first 9 with Excalibur. Wyvern Lord needs Dust to one-shot these. The other two are just out of Excalibur’s damage range, so DK!Annette needs Dust for these like Wyvern Lord does. Dust Reliant KO: 21-11 Dark Knight | Wyvern Lord 

2x Assassin - 48 HP, 44 AS, 27 Prt, 11 Res             2x Sniper - 46 HP, 18-22 AS, 24-27 Prt, 9 Res                    4x Grappler - 56 HP, 33-37 AS, 27 Prt, 8 Res

Easy one-shots for both. No Dust required. 

6x Warlock - 48 HP, 22-25 AS, 16 Prt, 36 Res    6x Dark Bishop: Very similar         1x Bishop - 47 HP, 17 AS, 17 Prt, 40 Res                   Myson - 54 Hp, 6 AS, 16 Prt, 42 Res

DK!Annette needs Dust to one-shot everything here besides the Bishop and Myson. Wyvern Annette one rounds with any of her physical axes. 
 

The final score for how many ORKOs rely on Dust is  33-11 Dark Knight | Wyvern Lord. Gilbert's Mt increasing support might change these numbers, but I think Mt supports give +3 at max. That's enough to guarantee a ORKO on the War Masters, but that would still be 31-11 on a map with 58 enemy units. Although both can one round everything on Player Phase, Dark Knight as is relies heavily on Dust. And since you can't trade for a tome in this game, there's no way to respond on enemy phase and ORKO most of the enemies on this map in the same turn for Dark Knight. Admittedly, Wyvern Lord won't be able to respond at range either, but it trades that for much higher Avoid and AS than Dark Knight. The Bolt Axe+ is very situational and pretty much a player phase only weapon because of it's ridiculous weight, but it does occasionally have its uses. The much better reason to go Wyvern Lord is for Lightning Axe. Make her a Pegasus Knight, and it patches up Annette's early game significantly. Annette's biggest struggle is her mediocre speed, start to finish. The Wyvern route helps that immensely with a +4 Speed mod and +6 from Darting Blow. 

Honestly, if you still want to go Dark Knight, you're probably better off going Mage to pick up Fiendish Blow and immediately class changing to Pegasus Knight with a C+ in axes so you can take advantage of Fiendish Blow with Lightning Axe until you have Darting Blow. Warlock just doesn't give anything worth staying in it for, and class growths are, on average, pretty insignificant. After that, sit around in it until you reach Level 30 for Dark Knight and take advantage of having Fiendish and Darting Blow. Even if you spend 10 Levels in each class, you end up with around 2 less Mag and 2 more Speed, so it seems worth it to me. 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by LegendOfLoog

[Dandy Druid]

Linhardt: He's someone who wants to be a Gremory, but sadly, he is not female. So we either keep him as a Bishop, a Holy Knight, or a dancer. Bishop gives him 2x Warp uses. I know a lot of people vouch for Warp, but I find it an incredibly niche spell only really nice for LTC. It is not a necessary thing to have, although it does make things like getting chests a little bit easier. Holy Knight is pretty great for getting Linhardt around, but his physic range allows him to heal from afar so he really doesn't need a horse. I'm surprised not too many people are saying Dancer. Dancer will make him a more versatile utility unit; he can dance while he's not healing. If men can be Gremories, he'd make a fine Gremory.

Annette: Annette is a tricky one, as she has many good options. Gremory, Dark Knight, Wyvern Lord, and Dancer are all great options for her. Gremory to utilize all of her magic, Dark Knight to give her a horse, Wyvern Lord takes advantage of her axe boon with a bolt axe, and Dancer helps with her utility and rallying. I'm leaning mostly towards Dark Knight though-- she's a great mage held back by a meh spell list. Because of that, I don't think it's as necessary for her to become Gremory as opposed to someone like Dorothea, Linhardt, Mercedes, or a magical Hilda who would like an extra siege spell or extra healing/warp. I'm leaning towards Dark Knight to increase her mobility.

Marianne: Marianne can be many things, but it is preferable to keep her as your main healer. Holy Knight, Gremory, and Dancer are probably the best classes for her. She can easily obtain Holy Knight and Dancer, Gremory will take a little while due to her not having a boon in Reason, but her spell list is decent enough and she has a good magic growth. Her relic weapon is a sword though, so she is a great candidate for dancer as well. If Ignatz is not your dancer, then have Marianne as your dancer.

[Tombstone88]

Linhardt: Bishop for sure.  His main purpose is utility with Physic and Warp; since he can't become a Gremory, Bishop is the class that best optimizes these spells.

Annette: This one is a bit tough.  Wyvern Lord is an appealing option for her, as she is good with axes and flight/mobility/axefaire are useful.  On the other hand, Dark Knight tanks her axe prowess a bit while increasing her black magic prowess.  My gut wants to go with Dark Knight, but both seem to have their pros and cons.

Marianne: After having tried Marianne as a Dancer recently, I never want to have her as anything else.  Her Riding boon means she can (somewhat) easily have 7 move, her Sword boon means she can take advantage of the Dancer's Sword Avo +20, and Dancers can still cast magic, meaning she can still utilize Physic/Silence/Thoron/anything else you take.  Marianne's Crest of the Beast increases her might on standard weapon attacks, which has good synergy with a Levin Sword or Blutgang.  Her Soulblade combat art is very good, at least until late game.  She's basically a high movement magical dodge tank.  If you're not making her Dancer, then I'd probably go Holy Knight.

[Jakkun]

Not making Linhardt into a mounted master class does his bloodline a great disservice, and keeping him as a Bishop will incur the wrath of Horse Emblem upon you. Ultimately its up to you if an extra use of Warp is worth his mom sniping your ass from 5 spaces away with no chance of counterattack. I'd say it is, but i'm a betting man, so yeah.

I picked Wyvern Lord for Annette because it sounded like a giant meme, but she could probably maybe actually make it work if you go Mage > Wyvern for Fiendish and just go ham with Bolt Axe/Crusher/Lightning Axe combat art + high might axe. She ain't gonna be no Hilda but it's still a Wyvern Lord, she'll put people in body bags either way. As a bonus. the only other character that can work this niche of a magic WL is Edel (thanks to Lightning Axe), and she's still primarily physical anyways. The more I think on it, it sounds like this game's equivalent of "Malig Knight Elise".

Dancer Marianne is just perfect for her. If you have someone else in mind for your dancer, then I think Holy Knight is her second best option, followed by Gremory if tons of Physic uses is that important to you.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Jakkun

[Cysx]

11 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

For reference, the formula for Lightning Axe is Mag + Weapon Mt + 4 Extra Mt + Res/4 (rounded up).

Actually, I'm pretty sure the formula is Res *0.3 rounded down. I just checked with a 24 Res Annette, using a Bolt Axe, she dealt 37 damage vs a 10 Res enemy. Using Lightning Axe raised this to 48, aka 4 + 7; if it was your formula, it would have been 24/4 = 6, so +10 resulting in 47 instead. Just pointing it out, I doubt it will matter much here. 
I don't really have anything to say about the chapter 6 test anyway; this is the worst part of the game for pure mage Annette imo, so I'm not really surprised.
As for the later one, let me spoiler box it for brevity

Spoiler

 

I do think it's worth taking into account the fact that Annette gets two +dmg supports in her route; Mercedes(not happening) and Gilbert, who is actually arguably one of the worst units in the game due to his joining ranks(E bows so no Bow knight, E Fists so no Warmaster, E flying so no Wyvern Lord, and D+ Authority on top of all that). Paladin is doable(He has B+ Lances and C Riding), though he'll then suffer from having very low speed in a class that doesn't help that stat.
As far as +dmg supports go, I didn't mention that for Sylvain because while he also gets two, it's from Ingrid and Felix, two units absolutely worth fielding. Otherwise out of the three slots you should have by that point, notable ones include Dimitri/Dedue, Byleth or Seteth/Flayn, and... that's pretty much it, though others such as Leonie/Alois and Catherine/Shamir can also happen. Overall, I think it's generally fair for Annette to take a slot if she's being used. Outside of that, her Mag base for me was 1 point lower but I considered a +8 battalion so it amounts to the same, and I think you miscalculated her dismounted speed; it should be 20 +2. Actually it should be 21+2; similarly, WL should have 26 +4 speed(same thing happens for its strength, though that doesn't really matter here) and I'm going to have to give my reasoning for decimals this time. I don't think this is decisive however, it's more for accuracy and potential discussion.

So, by entering Warlock, Annette's speed goes from a predicted 13.65 to 14.0. This is how we generally calculate averages, but I think it's incorrect. Averages are not a game mechanic, and thus should not be affected in that way by static boosts; nobody would argue that giving a Str stat booster to your unit every level makes their str growth rate 0%, yet that's what this reasoning entails. But let's calculate DK Annette's speed a different way real quick to illustrate.
7 base +(0.35 * 29 levels) + (0.3 * 13 levels) + 1 from Warlock's base +1 from DK dismounting = 23.05.
In this case, the way averages are usually dealt with takes away 0.65 of growth to the character for basically no reason. As for WL:
7 + (0.35 *19) + (0.45 * 23) +2 from WL's base + 4 from WL's mod= 30

Now maybe this is me missing something, and if so I'd be really happy to hear what it is.

Also I think there's an argument to be made that weight -3 is a pretty decent slot for both those versions of Annette(it's a condensed chapter, if it helps ORKOing it's probably worth more than Move +1), despite the weakness.

Overall... DK with 23 AS can double one more mortal savant(still falls short of OHKOing all of them even with Gilbert by 1). 3-0.
Battalion mortal savant, no change, 8-0.
The 18 AS Gremories are reliable doubles for DK, 15 - 0
For the War Masters, DK can reach 75 MAtk with Excalibur and Gilbert, 74 with only a +7 battalion, which is still enough. WL doubles the 29 AS ones with silver+ and weight -3, and ORKOs two of them with Gilbert. 15 - 9.
No changes on the rest.  27 -9.

---

So, not too big a change. I will say again however that the final chapter of BL is specifically really tough on magic based units, and that WL mostly gets a better score due to her physical prowess, which is nothing special. I've averaged the damage needed to ORKO with doubling for ch20, ch 21 and ch 22 BL, physical and magical, and  the results are:
Ch 20: 51.31 P.atk, 45.05 M.atk to ORKO
Ch 21: 51.08 P.atk, 47.74 M.atk to ORKO
Ch 22: 48.37 P.atk, 52.68 M.atk to ORKO
This wouldn't matter much if chapters with a majority of them were common, but I can hardly think of any other, to be honest. In comparison to the 27 out of 58 units DK Annette cannot ORKO without Dust in ch22, she's at 19 out of 62 in ch21, and that's without food effects that put her in doubling range (which aren't a thing in ch22), which put her at 5 out of 62 with +3 speed food.

 

In any case, overall, I am wondering more and more if darting blow isn't the way to go for even magic Annette, myself... But -> mage->peg->DK? Idk, I guess it works on paper? Lightning Axe with steel+ is roughly as strong as Excalibur + tomefaire + Warlock mod(no magic battalion however)... But getting to C+ Axes, D+Lances and E+/D flying will probably make you enter DK a few months later, and not much you can do against targets you don't ORKO. She'll be better in the end for sure, I don't know if it's really that practical though.

[LegendOfLoog]

@CysxThe Lightning Axe formula seems accurate since everything else in this game is rounded down iirc. For Annette's speed down the Warlock route, the average at level 20 has to be considered as a range for the current approach to make sense. 13.65 is effectively 13-14 Speed, and since Warlock has 14 base Speed, on average Annette will have 14 base Spd regardless of which way RNG goes. So Annette's speed as a level 43 Dark Knight should be 22-23, leaning towards 22 (I was off by a point of Speed in the original calc.) Your Wyvern Lord Spd is also correct for the same reason. Annette gets promoted to 20 Speed on average because of Wyvern Lord and gains 5.85 Speed through growths, so her Speed should be 29.85 at level 43 if I'm doing this correctly.  Weight -3 actually seems pretty great on WL Annette because of how many heavy axes she carries around, but I'm not sure about it on DK!Annette because her Speed is already kind of sketchy.  WL is strong in general, but this map massively favors them over magical units because of the high Res most units seem to have. As a result, Annette's average physical strength is enough here with Darting Blow. 

I plan on seeing in practice how effective Mage->PegKnight->DK is, but I think it's doable before Level 30. She starts with enough Reason to pass the Mage exam with a decent pass rate, so you can spend the first 10 levels working on getting Lightning Axe and her Lance rank while leveling Flying through a Group Task. After that, she can focus mostly on Reason and Riding until Level 30. I'll have to try it to see, but I think it'll work out decently. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by LegendOfLoog

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, LegendOfLoog said:

@CysxThe Lightning Axe formula seems accurate since everything else in this game is rounded down iirc. For Annette's speed down the Warlock route, the average at level 20 has to be considered as a range for the current approach to make sense. 13.65 is effectively 13-14 Speed, and since Warlock has 14 base Speed, on average Annette will have 14 base Spd regardless of which way RNG goes. So Annette's speed as a level 43 Dark Knight should be 22-23, leaning towards 22 (I was off by a point of Speed in the original calc.) Your Wyvern Lord Spd is also correct for the same reason. Annette gets promoted to 20 Speed on average because of Wyvern Lord and gains 5.85 Speed through growths, so her Speed should be 29.85 at level 43 if I'm doing this correctly.  Weight -3 actually seems pretty great on WL Annette because of how many heavy axes she carries around, but I'm not sure about it on DK!Annette because her Speed is already kind of sketchy.  WL is strong in general, but this map massively favors them over magical units because of the high Res most units seem to have. As a result, Annette's average physical strength is enough here with Darting Blow. 

I plan on seeing in practice how effective Mage->PegKnight->DK is, but I think it's doable before Level 30. She starts with enough Reason to pass the Mage exam with a decent pass rate, so you can spend the first 10 levels working on getting Lightning Axe and her Lance rank while leveling Flying through a Group Task. After that, she can focus mostly on Reason and Riding until Level 30. I'll have to try it to see, but I think it'll work out decently. 

The issue I have with that approach is, sure you have a solidified value for level 20, but when it comes to level 21 and 22, you're behind averages, at 14 spd instead of 15. What if level 21 was the level of reference here, that we cared about, instead of 43? Wouldn't it matter to get it accurately? And as a result, doesn't it matter to get it accurately, period? From 19 to 22, on average she's supposed to gain 1.05 from growths. With that method, she's gotten 0.7 for no good reason. That's why I used the stat booster example, when taken to its extreme it shows that the very reasoning is flawed.
The averages on Serenes work that way as well(which I misremembered); for example, when promoting, Lyn's average Skill jumps from 18.4 to 20.4, and not a flat 20. It does cut decimals on caps though, which I don't really agree with but is even harder to fight against, and irrelevant in Three Houses.

-

Basically I think I need to debate this with more people, but I don't see any kind of food beyond +spd to really be relevant. This is because the other major stat, strength, gets the ingredient for its main recipe from doing auxiliary battles, which consumes a weekend and essentially equates to grinding. The spd one, however, you get from fishing, which only consumes negligible amounts of money and doesn't have to give you any big advantage as long as you don't sell what you get. Post timeskip, you have more activity points than you need to cook once a weekend, too. So basically, a sketchy speed problem gets fixed to an extent through this. Not in ch22 though, since cooking effects fade after ch21 and you don't get to refresh them.

-

Honestly, I just went through a playthrough where I tried to get 5 units neutral in riding to +1 move at once, and... it kind of opened my eyes on how much of an investment it really is. Everyone barely reached the minimum rate to get into Dark Knight/Bow knight by 30, too. I'm feeling pretty confident spending between two to four months tutoring something completely unrelated will make a sizeable difference, however, I look forward to your own conclusions if you ever share them.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Cysx

[LegendOfLoog]

5 hours ago, Cysx said:

The issue I have with that approach is, sure you have a solidified value for level 20, but when it comes to level 21 and 22, you're behind averages, at 14 spd instead of 15. What if level 21 was the level of reference here, that we cared about, instead of 43? Wouldn't it matter to get it accurately? And as a result, doesn't it matter to get it accurately, period? From 19 to 22, on average she's supposed to gain 1.05 from growths. With that method, she's gotten 0.7 for no good reason. That's why I used the stat booster example, when taken to its extreme it shows that the very reasoning is flawed.
The averages on Serenes work that way as well(which I misremembered); for example, when promoting, Lyn's average Skill jumps from 18.4 to 20.4, and not a flat 20. It does cut decimals on caps though, which I don't really agree with but is even harder to fight against, and irrelevant in Three Houses.

Well, I sort of get it, but let me use Annette's Strength through the Wyvern route as an example here. Assuming you go Monk -> Pegasus Knight, before promotion at Level 20 she should have gotten 19 levels worth of a 30% growth. That's 5.7 + her base of 6 which equals 11.7 Strength. Wyvern Rider has a base of 18. To me, it doesn't make sense to just add 7 Strength here because that implies that it is ever possible for Annette to have 19 Strength as a Level 20 Wyvern Rider, assuming that she's at the average. It isn't, so I chop off the decimal before promotion. The same logic follows with her Speed at Level 20 as a Warlock. On average, she will never have 15 Speed, so the decimal disappears because it's basically a pointer to which way RNG goes within the average. On the other hand, her Speed as a Level 20 Pegasus Knight is a good example of where it makes sense to keep the decimal. Her base of 7 + 9 levels of .35 + 10 levels of .45 equals 14.65. This is just above Wyvern Rider's 14 Base Spd, so no promotion gain occurs unless she is slightly RNG-screwed. It is possible to have a 14 or 15 Speed Wyvern Rider Annette within the average, so I keep the decimal. Basically, my thought process is that if there is an area where a promotion gain could occur anywhere within the average, that means the stat will either already be the base or be promoted to it, so the decimals are wiped clean. 

And as far as the Lyn point, I'm pretty sure GBA uses an entirely different promotion system. Her promotion, Blade Lord, has extremely low bases as far as I can see. At least on Serenes, it says the class has 18 HP, 3 Str, 3 Skl, 4 Spd, 0 Lck, 5 Def, and 0 Res as bases. Lyn is at or above most of these stats at Level 1 except for HP and Def by 3 points at most. However, her promotion gains appear to be completely independent of her actual stats at time of promotion. Three Houses promotion gains only occur if your unit's stats are lower than the bases of that class, so the nature of promotion as a whole is different. GBA gives you stats regardless while Three Houses measures the stats a unit already has before deciding. In that case, Lyn's averages make sense to me as her promotion doesn't bring her stats up to specific numbers; it could be 20 or it could be 21, whereas Annette can never have 15 Speed as a Level 20 Warlock. GBA uses a flat increase which is not really what Three Houses does. In that light, I think the reasoning makes sense because they're entirely different systems. 

[Cysx]

5 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Well, I sort of get it, but let me use Annette's Strength through the Wyvern route as an example here. Assuming you go Monk -> Pegasus Knight, before promotion at Level 20 she should have gotten 19 levels worth of a 30% growth. That's 5.7 + her base of 6 which equals 11.7 Strength. Wyvern Rider has a base of 18. To me, it doesn't make sense to just add 7 Strength here because that implies that it is ever possible for Annette to have 19 Strength as a Level 20 Wyvern Rider, assuming that she's at the average. It isn't, so I chop off the decimal before promotion. The same logic follows with her Speed at Level 20 as a Warlock. On average, she will never have 15 Speed, so the decimal disappears because it's basically a pointer to which way RNG goes within the average. On the other hand, her Speed as a Level 20 Pegasus Knight is a good example of where it makes sense to keep the decimal. Her base of 7 + 9 levels of .35 + 10 levels of .45 equals 14.65. This is just above Wyvern Rider's 14 Base Spd, so no promotion gain occurs unless she is slightly RNG-screwed. It is possible to have a 14 or 15 Speed Wyvern Rider Annette within the average, so I keep the decimal. Basically, my thought process is that if there is an area where a promotion gain could occur anywhere within the average, that means the stat will either already be the base or be promoted to it, so the decimals are wiped clean. 

And as far as the Lyn point, I'm pretty sure GBA uses an entirely different promotion system. Her promotion, Blade Lord, has extremely low bases as far as I can see. At least on Serenes, it says the class has 18 HP, 3 Str, 3 Skl, 4 Spd, 0 Lck, 5 Def, and 0 Res as bases. Lyn is at or above most of these stats at Level 1 except for HP and Def by 3 points at most. However, her promotion gains appear to be completely independent of her actual stats at time of promotion. Three Houses promotion gains only occur if your unit's stats are lower than the bases of that class, so the nature of promotion as a whole is different. GBA gives you stats regardless while Three Houses measures the stats a unit already has before deciding. In that case, Lyn's averages make sense to me as her promotion doesn't bring her stats up to specific numbers; it could be 20 or it could be 21, whereas Annette can never have 15 Speed as a Level 20 Warlock. GBA uses a flat increase which is not really what Three Houses does. In that light, I think the reasoning makes sense because they're entirely different systems. 

Absolutely, you're getting a more accurate average on the very level itself, but then you have a faulty number for everything that comes after; besides, it is your personal choice to interpret a, let's say 14.7 as 14 or 15, to me it translates as 14 and thus it remains accurate; but what I'm really trying to say here is that in a context where you're selectively considering averages to that extent, you'd simply have to note that on level 20 specifically, despite an average of 14.65, the only statistically relevant value is 14. I don't think it's worth getting everything else wrong to avoid having to do that.
I guess a compromise could be to put the decimals between parenthesis, to notify of the issue.

Promotions in FE7 are indeed tied to promotion gains rather than class bases, so there is a difference in when the stat boosts occur; but they're still flat stat boosts. I have to say I fail to see how the difference you're describing is relevant outside of the problem you've brought up above; again, averages aren't a game mechanic. That being said, it basically largely amounts to Strengthofmorning's decision here, which is one person like you and me. So it wasn't exactly relevant for me to bring up either way.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Cysx

[Jayvee94]

Poll closes due to being displaced from the first page.

Here are the results (More than one class listed if majority isn't reached):

• Linhardt: Holy Knight/Bishop
• Annette: Dark Knight/Gremory
• Marianne: Holy Knight
• Next Round: Ashe, Ingrid, Lorenz

Edited September 4, 2019 by Jayvee94

[wissenschaft]

Ugh, I think Holy Knight is a terrible class period. It only works because Marianne can make use of her magic sword/lance attacks but that is not better than what dark knights can do. She can be just as effective in combat as a Dancer as she can with holy knight.

Edited September 4, 2019 by wissenschaft

[daisy jane]

3 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Ugh, I think Holy Knight is a terrible class period. It only works because Marianne can make use of her magic sword/lance attacks but that is not better than what dark knights can do. She can be just as effective in combat as a Dancer as she can with holy knight.

I agree. I got Marianne into that class and i quickly got her out of it - it completely sucked

I did see this afternoon a Wyvern Annie build (i forgot to copy the skills which makes me bummer) but it made me wish that instead of doing Dancer Marianne that i did do Pegasus Marianne (but the thing is - there are no magic lances - like there is the levin sword and the bolt axe until v. late game). 

[Jayvee94]

Round 5 officially begun