Can we talk about how terrible Those Who Slither in the Dark are as villains? (Spoilers Obviously)

[CyberNinja]

2 minutes ago, Yexin said:

well to be honest edelgard revealing herself as the flame emperor so soon, in the holy tomb (don't know its english name), doesn't make much sense either

she could've just been like "hey i don't like the church so i'm your enemy now, but you can still join me if you don't like the church as well", and maybe reveal herself as the flame emperor later on in another route, while fighting her post timeskip, while not revealing it if you join her

i mean, the game's already full of things you can't understand if you don't play the right path, and honestly edelgad being the flame emperor is not that important compared to byleth's very same origins

Her reveal then is her actually being completely honest with Byleth. She's out of time and making her move if you promised to ally the flame emperor she says they'll be a time when they'll reveal them self to you. She'll only reveal herself if you join her in enbarr (actually haven't tested on els route) otherwise she'll consider you an enemy only and come as the flame emperor. However she can't change her schedule because this is her only opportunity to take the crest stones. She comes in with her army drops her mask and says to stand aside if your not her enemy. If you did it the way I did this was a the confrontation she'd been hinting towards for months. The moment of truth as it were. This is her literally doing your second paragraph.

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Hyper L said:

Morality being ultimately subjective doesn't mean there isn't any sort of logic you can apply to the situation.

Joining with the one person that killed the father that you (the character Byleth) cared for doesn't seem very logical.

True enough but Byleth is meant to represent the player in this context and if the player is convinced well that's just what Byleth will do. Also humans are irrational inherently. A lot of us act on impulse and emotion most of the time. I mean so long as she came up with a convincing enough argument I could see it working.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Ottservia

[Seazas]

Just now, Ottservia said:

True enough but Byleth is meant to represent the player in this context and if the player is convinced well that's just what Byleth will do. Also are irrational inherently. A lot us act on impulse and emotion most of the time. I mean so long as she came up with a convincing enough argument I could see it working.

That would NEVER work. Many players love Kronya and would try to shill for her or be nicer to her too. Byleth meanwhile shows undeniable hostility. Edelgard should not be an exception or that is SHIT tier writing.

[Killer Kronya]

The character who kills your father absolutely would be somebody irredeemable since they've done something to the self-insert. Edelgard couldn't fit this role.

[Yexin]

18 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

Her reveal then is her actually being completely honest with Byleth. She's out of time and making her move if you promised to ally the flame emperor she says they'll be a time when they'll reveal them self to you. 

nothing forced her to reveal it in that specific moment though

18 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

She'll only reveal herself if you join her in enbarr

no, she just orders her troops to steal the crest stones and reveals herself as the flame emperor in her route

again, no particular reason, she just does it

18 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

The moment of truth as it were.

well yes but actually no

as i already said, nothing really forced her to reveal her identity except her own brain probably

also if she didn't reveal it in that moment, she would've been felt by the player even less opposed to byleth, because you already knew the flame emperor was allied with twsid, so yeah she is partially responsible for jeralt's death, even if indirectly, and she quite openly tells you so

Edited August 24, 2019 by Yexin

[Stroud]

I don't know about Jeralt dying. I talked with someone jokingly before that he will die because he is a father in fire emblem and it did happen. They just could have made something different I think. Why does a parent often need to die in fire emblem. If they do it again next time its kind of predictable.. but of course if it is build up well and enrichens the story it can still work. Its just. Welp...

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Stroud

[Ottservia]

Just now, Stroud said:

Why does a parent often need to die in fire emblem. If they do it again next time its kind of predictable.. but of course if it is build up well and enrichens the story it can still work.

Well the death of a loved one(or at least the very real fear of it happening) is something most anyone can relate to which is why it's so prevalent in stories in general. Now there are right and wrong ways to really go about it but still.

[Fabulously Olivier]

48 minutes ago, HappyHawlucha. said:

That could actually potentially remove Byleth's relevance from the plot(which could be beneficial for the plot). If Rhea did the experiments on Edelgard and her siblings that would allow the whole Progenitor God storyline to play out with Edelgard; allowing her eventual betrayal to hit Rhea harder; and allow history to sort of repeat itself with the bearer of the Crest Stone of Sothis wanting to put an end to the Children of the Goddess(first with Nemesis; then with Edelgard).

I like this. I like this a lot.

[Stroud]

13 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Well the death of a loved one(or at least the very real fear of it happening) is something most anyone can relate to which is why it's so prevalent in stories in general. Now there are right and wrong ways to really go about it but still.

I mean yeah, overall it adds to the story. And they also needed something to trigger Byleths emotions with the first situation where Byleth cried. Its just that especially in Fire Emblem its already some kind of Death Flag to be the father of the protagonist. Next time they could pick another character for this role who is close to the protagonist if they feel the need to do it.

But maybe its just the build up which made me not think too much of it here. Also have to agree that the antagonists are a bit lacking. And I felt not that they are threatening or truly wicked. Kronya shows that some things just have been messed up. Also the banishing of Byleth was so short that it felt just like a plan in vain. At first I thought this could be the point where the timeskip happens, at least for Byleth. But after playing more routes of course thats a bit difficult..

Edited August 24, 2019 by Stroud

[Hyper L]

15 minutes ago, Yexin said:

nothing forced her to reveal it in that specific moment though

Nothing except the fact she didn't expect you would joint her by the end of the conflict. It was the last chance in her eyes.

15 minutes ago, Yexin said:

no, she just orders her troops to steal the crest stones and reveals herself as the flame emperor in her route

again, no particular reason, she just does it

The moment they realised the Flame Emperor was with the Empire it was a matter of time before everyone discovered Edelgard is now Emperor and making the orders.

Whether the Flame Emperor was her or just a subordinate of hers would be irrelevant at that point. Edelgard becomes the main enemy in the eyes of the Church.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Hyper L

[Faellin]

Yeah its pathetic just how easily they are brushed to the side.

The funny thing is, for being a behind the scenes group who seem to want to avoid direct confrontation. You can just walk right into their main base without any resistance.

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Fuck that shit. Rhea performing experiments on children would be terrible, she's only a villain because of Edelgard being heavily misguided. 

Yeah, you tell yourself that as Fhirdiad burns on her orders literally right after its king dies for Rhea's cause. Sure, buddy.

[Seazas]

5 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Yeah, you tell yourself that as Fhirdiad burns on her orders literally right after its king dies for Rhea's cause. Sure, buddy.

Yet she performs none of those actions in any other route or anything resembling them. She made those actions because she was pushed to the limit and if you know about her character. What Edelgard did, it was inevitable she would snap. Don't try any BE route bias to claim she's a villain and nothing but one.

[Warhydra]

They are a big waste of a very interesting concept. Seriously, last survivors of an ancient high tech culture in Fire Emblem, how did they mess that up? Every single one of their characters seem to exist solely as hate sinks for players, they never seem to have much of a plan other than the usual "Villain wants to kill everyone" cliche. 

Kronya in particular really bugged me. She was possibly the most terrible infiltrator since the dawn of time and only managed what she did because everyone at the monastery decided to collectively hold on to the idiot ball (except Ed, Hubert and maybe Hilda) for 2 chapters. Think about it, their librarian and combat instructors had just turned out to be enemies in disguise, and now a long lost student suddenly returned and acted entirely unlike her previous self, or at least someone who had been traumatized by 1 year of imprisonment. You would think they would be suspicious or at least want to keep this student under close observation, but no, everyone just brush that off with "Oh it must be how she cope with stress!" and let her run around the monastery. It was REALLY dumb.

Kronya openly attaching herself to Edelgard also made no sense, since it would draw suspicion to Edelgard when Kronya reveals herself.  But once again, nobody bother to question Ed after Jeralt died. 

Also Claude telling you to run straight into the obvious trap was very out of character for him.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Warhydra

[Julian Solo]

2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Yet she performs none of those actions in any other route or anything resembling them. She made those actions because she was pushed to the limit and if you know about her character. What Edelgard did, it was inevitable she would snap. Don't try any BE route bias to claim she's a villain and nothing but one.

She also was active in the whole war in that route and Dimitri didn't go to prison and is saner. Five and a half years of war can really screw you up.

[Seazas]

1 minute ago, Warhydra said:

They are a big waste of a very interesting concept. Seriously, last survivors of an ancient high tech culture in Fire Emblem, how did they mess that up? Every single one of their characters seem to exist solely as hate sinks for players, they never seem to have much of a plan other than the usual "Villain wants to kill everyone" cliche. 

Kronya in particular really bugged me. She was possibly the most terrible infiltrator since the dawn of time and only managed what she did because everyone at the monastery decided to collectively hold on to the idiot ball (except Ed, Hubert and maybe Hilda) for 2 chapters. Think about it, their librarian and combat instructors had just turned out to be enemies in disguise, and now a long lost student suddenly returned and acted entirely unlike her previous self, or at least someone who had been traumatized by 1 year of imprisonment. You would think they would be suspicious or at least want to keep this student under close observation, but no, everyone just brush that off with "Oh it must be how she cope with stress!" and let her run around the monastery. It was REALLY dumb.

Kronya openly attaching herself to Edelgard also made no sense, since it would draw suspicion to Edelgard when Kronya reveals herself.  But once again, nobody bother to question Ed after Jeralt died. 

Also Claude telling you to run straight into the obvious trap was very out of character for him.

Monica remained glued to Edelgard so no one could really question her or try to force info out of her and shit consistently went down.

[Seazas]

1 minute ago, Julian Solo said:

She also was active in the whole war in that route and Dimitri didn't go to prison and is saner. Five and a half years of war can really screw you up.

She was already fucked up, ANOTHER war and history repeating itself since Byleth had Nemesis' crest, the Sword of the Creator and actively aimed to kill Rhea ruined her mind further.

Anyone would snap if pushed beyond their limits like what happened to Rhea. Her character is really fucking tragic.

[Killer Kronya]

I have trouble seeing Rhea as a gray character when she straight up tried to erase Byleth's mind and replace him with Sothis.

[Warhydra]

18 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Monica remained glued to Edelgard so no one could really question her or try to force info out of her and shit consistently went down.

Doesn't look like anyone bothered anyway? And if Rhea or Seteth wanted to question Monica, I dont see how Ed would be able to convince them otherwise.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Yeah, the whole Rhea is innocent until cornered bullshit doesn't even deserve to be dignified with an argument. It's that stupid.

 

The entire Lonato arc, the multiple executions, the multiple instances of creepy dialogue, and immoral experiments resulting in Byleth's abnormal birth were not good acts. 

 

Rhea isn't "tragic." She isn't innocent. All of her actions on all paths are part of her character, and ignoring the atrocity she commits at the end of Crimson flower because "ermahgerd, BE bias," is disingenuous and dishonest. It's like asking someone to judge Hitler but ignore the Holocaust.

[Seazas]

1 minute ago, Killer Kronya said:

I have trouble seeing Rhea as a gray character when she straight up tried to erase Byleth's mind and replace him with Sothis.

That's part of what makes her gray though since the rest of her is pretty much white except for a few things like that.

1 minute ago, Warhydra said:

Doesn't look like anyone bothered anyway? And if Rhea or Seteth wanted to question Monica, I dont see how Ed would be able to convince them otherwise.

Monica hid in the background a lot, plus... weren't Rhea and Seteth focusing on more important matters. Like wtf's going on, trying to keep the building safe for all students, etc?

[Seazas]

5 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Yeah, the whole Rhea is innocent until cornered bullshit doesn't even deserve to be dignified with an argument. It's that stupid.

 

The entire Lonato arc, the multiple executions, the multiple instances of creepy dialogue, and immoral experiments resulting in Byleth's abnormal birth were not good acts. 

 

Rhea isn't "tragic." She isn't innocent. All of her actions on all paths are part of her character, and ignoring the atrocity she commits at the end of Crimson flower because "ermahgerd, BE bias," is disingenuous and dishonest. It's like asking someone to judge Hitler but ignore the Holocaust.

Imagine comparing Rhea to Hitler lol. Those "immoral experiments" were never stated to be on the league like what Slithers did to Edelgard. Pretty sure Rhea was just reviving corpses and when Byleth's mom was a failure, Rhea didn't keep pushing until she died. She just let her live a happy life and even save her child. The "entire Lonato arc" revealed to be Lonato being misguided and used by the Slithers so his words about Rhea are full of bias from the Slithers themselves. Making that irrelevant garbage.

Rhea isn't innocent, but not once did she ever actively attack innocents until one route where she's pushed a lot worse. Trying to force every route to be in a character is irrelevant, character motivations have shown to consistently change in every route and different things HAPPEN in every route. 3/4 outweighs 1/4 buddy. 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Seazas

[Killer Kronya]

Doing experiments on a baby so she can wipe it's mind and replace it with her mother's seems like attacking an innocent to me.

[Fabulously Olivier]

5 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Imagine comparing Rhea to Hitler lol. Those "immoral experiments" were never stated to be on the league like what Slithers did to Edelgard. Pretty sure Rhea was just reviving corpses and when Byleth's mom was a failure, Rhea didn't keep pushing until she died. She just let her live a happy life and even save her child.

Rhea isn't innocent, but not once did she ever actively attack innocents until one route where she's pushed a lot worse. Trying to force every route to be in a character is irrelevant, character motivations have shown to consistently change in every route and different things HAPPEN in every route.

You're right but in the opposite direction. Rhea's executions, actions in the war against Nemesis, tyranny, and stamping out of dissent have likely caused way more in-universe damage than Hitler. She's actually successful in her misdeeds.

 

All characters are an amalgation of what they do. Rhea not burning Ferdhiad in the Golden Deer route doesn't erase her burning Fherdiad in the BE route. We see how she responds in desperation, and it is despicable. It is part of her. The potential for her to do this has always been there.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Etheus

[0 Def Cleric]

3 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Imagine comparing Rhea to Hitler lol. Those "immoral experiments" were never stated to be on the league like what Slithers did to Edelgard. Pretty sure Rhea was just reviving corpses and when Byleth's mom was a failure, Rhea didn't keep pushing until she died. She just let her live a happy life and even save her child. The "entire Lonato arc" revealed to be Lonato being misguided and used by the Slithers so his words about Rhea are full of bias from the Slithers themselves. Making that irrelevant garbage.

Rhea isn't innocent, but not once did she ever actively attack innocents until one route where she's pushed a lot worse. Trying to force every route to be in a character is irrelevant, character motivations have shown to consistently change in every route and different things HAPPEN in every route.

I have no stake in this argument, but I'm pretty sure that Byleth was the first instance of the Crest Stone being used to revive a dead human, thus why they're Sothis's proper vessel. Also, it's pretty hard to say Lonato was just being used by TWSITD considering the entire Western Church seems to feel the same way, and it would be rather hard to convince an entire branch of the faith in the same line.