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Can we talk about how terrible Those Who Slither in the Dark are as villains? (Spoilers Obviously)


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21 minutes ago, Boomhauer007 said:

Anyway I wanted to throw out that I'm glad that if nothing else after 15 games we didn't get "dragons gone crazy" again, spent the whole game thinking it was coming.

Well, he does happen with Rhea.

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2 hours ago, Soroen said:

Well, he does happen with Rhea.

I like to file this one under "I spent a thousands or so years having every other person say 'yes' to my whims, so when I hear 'No' I don't take it well". More of a diva thing than dragon.

So um, Thales can time travel like Byleth, right? That's what we saw in that scene? I think his appearing only after Byleth turns back time to save Jeralt implies he's also fully aware of Byleth's ability so I have even more questions than just "how does he time travel"? The only person in the world that I think can expect Byleth to have this power is Rhea who is famously guarded of her secrets, so I don't think it's information they can suggest that Solon or Monica leaked while they were undercover. 

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Felt like the game had too much going on to do something worthwhile with them. Part of that, though, was a choice not to make them the evil masterminds behind the Empire. Isn't how things like that usually go? Mechanically they just feel like a way for Edelgard to get wrapped up in atrocities while being able to plausibly deny responsibility.

Like, E hung out with Kronya daily for a month, to the point she won't even talk to anyone else, but it's a big shock that Kronya knifes Jeralt the first time she's out of the house. 

I felt like TWSITD are really just there to make Edelgard "complicated" and it's clunky most of the time.

Thales is the dude who casts quake one round before you kill him, though, which is something nobody else does

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7 hours ago, Yexin said:

that's simply wrong

they openly say her plan was to kill claude and dimitri 

also by playing blue lions you find out that edelgard remembers about that child who gave her a dagger as a present just like 2 chapters before the end of the route, so no, pre-timeskip edelgard doesn't feel anything towards dimitri 

EDIT: not that feeling anything towards dimitri would stop her anyway

I just played Blue Lions and Edelgard NEVER EVER said she just remembered that child. Do you have an actual quote for that? She pretty surely remembers Dimitri, she knows him. There is no reason to beliefe she forget them, especially since she still carried the dagger with her after all the years. She even cried after she had to kill him in post-timeskip.

Also she NEVER said outright that he was supposed to kill Dimitri and Claude. Stop making up false statements in this argumentation. Do you have any actual quotes or screens proving that?

Do you have any sources for your statements? Because I never saw this sentences in any of my runs.

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30 minutes ago, Hauke said:

 

Also she NEVER said outright that he was supposed to kill Dimitri and Claude. Stop making up false statements in this argumentation. Do you have any actual quotes or screens proving that?

Do you have any sources for your statements? Because I never saw this sentences in any of my runs.

First dialogue box that Kostas said when he meets the Flame Emperor :

"What is this nonsense?! All I was told was to kill as many noble pipsqueaks as possible!"

And The Flame Emperor : "I had hoped you would achieve your goal despite the setback."

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4 minutes ago, Tharne said:

First dialogue box that Kostas said when he meets the Flame Emperor :

"What is this nonsense?! All I was told was to kill as many noble pipsqueaks as possible!"

And The Flame Emperor : "I had hoped you would achieve your goal despite the setback."

And where exactly does this prove she wanted to kill Dimitri and Claude? And what her true goals were? YOu made stuff up based on this textbox and assume she means Dimitri and Claude which makes absolutelly no sense at all. What would she archive by that? Also she was attacked too which clearly wasn't her plan.

Most likely she wanted to get ride of the teacher and replace him with Jeritza and nothing more. Based on a statement made by Ferdinand in the monastery it's likely that one of the students did know that Jeralt or other mercenaries were there. So she know that the three of them were safe. There would be absolutelly no reason for Edelgard to kill Dimitri and Claude at this point, it would archive nothing for her. She isn't emperor yet, so what would she get from it?

Also you assume she told Kostas the truth while it's more likely he was just a tool and didn't even know her true intentions and plans.

Edited by Hauke
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5 hours ago, Boomhauer007 said:

Hegemon was stupid and is a perfect example of the game going over the top evil when it didn't need to.

actually i found that map to be quite easy, i only had to move my units on the left part of the map, in order to face less enemies and less 36 AS warmasters

hegemon doesn't attack the same unit twice in one turn, so as long as you have ranged healings such as balm (mercedes and flayn) you should be ok

the boss itself was quite easy, i mean i had plenty if brave weapons

also ashe with parthia made my life in that chapter SO much easy

Edited by Yexin
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I wonder which elements of the story of Three Houses were planned since the beginning and which ones were added mid-development for some reason...

That is the kind of thought I have thinking about the potential of the Slithers in the overall narrative.

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2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

So um, Thales can time travel like Byleth, right? That's what we saw in that scene? I think his appearing only after Byleth turns back time to save Jeralt implies he's also fully aware of Byleth's ability so I have even more questions than just "how does he time travel"? The only person in the world that I think can expect Byleth to have this power is Rhea who is famously guarded of her secrets, so I don't think it's information they can suggest that Solon or Monica leaked while they were undercover. 

he can't time travel

i think he was just hiding somewhere near kronya to see if everything was going well, and before byleth used the divine pulse he does nothing because byleth does nothing too

after the divine pulse, thales sees byleh is trying to attack kronya to stop her, so he quickly teleports in front of him to stop his attack

i highly doubt he can time travel, he just reacted to byleth's attack

Edited by Yexin
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14 minutes ago, Hauke said:

And where exactly does this prove she wanted to kill Dimitri and Claude? And what her true goals were? YOu made stuff up based on this textbox and assume she means Dimitri and Claude which makes absolutelly no sense at all. What would she archive by that? Also she was attacked too which clearly wasn't her plan.

Most likely she wanted to get ride of the teacher and replace him with Jeritza and nothing more. Based on a statement made by Ferdinand in the monastery it's likely that one of the students did know that Jeralt or other mercenaries were there. So she know that the three of them were safe. There would be absolutelly no reason for Edelgard to kill Dimitri and Claude at this point, it would archive nothing for her. She isn't emperor yet, so what would she get from it?

Also you assume she told Kostas the truth while it's more likely he was just a tool and didn't even know her true intentions and plans.

"As many noble pipsqueaks as possible" translate for you into "Kill only the teacher" even though we don't know if he's a noble, also the fact that pipsqueaks is most likely used to talk about the students since they are not adult contrary to the teacher, and the use of plural. Sure sure...

Killing Dimitri and Claude means that the last heir to the head of the Kingdom and Alliance are no more. And you ask what would she get from it...what about the chaos that would ensue inside the two territories that she will soon conquer because of the bickering between noble houses about who should be in charge now.

 

Also that last line is pretty ironic since it's exactly what's going on with Edelgard (Kostas) and TWISTD (Flame Emperor).

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28 minutes ago, Hauke said:

And where exactly does this prove she wanted to kill Dimitri and Claude?

"Leave no Kingdom general alive, especially Dimitir" - Crimson Flower Chapter 17

 

Claude also stated Kosta was after their lives.

Edited by Timlugia
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4 minutes ago, Tharne said:

"As many noble pipsqueaks as possible" translate for you into "Kill only the teacher" even though we don't know if he's a noble, also the fact that pipsqueaks is most likely used to talk about the students since they are not adult contrary to the teacher, and the use of plural. Sure sure...

Killing Dimitri and Claude means that the last heir to the head of the Kingdom and Alliance are no more. And you ask what would she get from it...what about the chaos that would ensue inside the two territories that she will soon conquer because of the bickering between noble houses about who should be in charge now.

  

Also that last line is pretty ironic since it's exactly what's going on with Edelgard (Kostas) and TWISTD (Flame Emperor).

Do you really think she would tell Kostas her full plan? It would have looked weird if he just attacked the teacher and nobody else. Also shje isn't emperor yet, so she has no gain from this chaos. She has no reason to tell Kostas her true plans and intentions. It just doesn't make any sense for her to kill them both and bring herself in danger there. If there wasn't Byleth she would have died too.

3 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

"Leave no Kingdom general alive, especially Dimitir" - Crimson Flower Chapter 17

Oh wow. That's AFTER the timeskip. During the WAR. That's not a source for her intentions during the early game before the timeskip.

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8 minutes ago, Hauke said:

 

Do you really think she would tell Kostas her full plan? It would have looked weird if he just attacked the teacher and nobody else. Also shje isn't emperor yet, so she has no gain from this chaos. She has no reason to tell Kostas her true plans and intentions. It just doesn't make any sense for her to kill them both and bring herself in danger there. If there wasn't Byleth she would have died too.

Oh wow. That's AFTER the timeskip. During the WAR. That's not a source for her intentions during the early game before the timeskip.

So she tells him to "kill as many noble pipsqueaks as possible" to hide her real plan which you think is "kill the teacher" and you also think that somehow the stupid bandit is going to miraculously do what her real plan was instead of doing what she asked him to do...What ??? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds ?

It's not because she's not emperor yet that she can't take actions that will make it easier for her when she will be. On the contrary it is a lot easier to deal with them now than when she will declare war and they have the might of their nations behind them.

Edited by Tharne
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Whatever are Edelgard's true intentions, she wouldn't reveal it to Kostas for obvious reasons; he is a bandit; a person without shame, care or dignity. Just a selfish monster.

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43 minutes ago, Yexin said:

he can't time travel

i think he was just hiding somewhere near kronya to see if everything was going well, and before byleth used the divine pulse he does nothing because byleth does nothing too

after the divine pulse, thales sees byleh is trying to attack kronya to stop her, so he quickly teleports in front of him to stop his attack

i highly doubt he can time travel, he just reacted to byleth's attack

Which to this day still bothers me btw.

Mate you're in chapter 9, you have at least 10 divine pulses, ragequitting at the second becase "fate" doesn't exactly make sense.

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But Kostas did "miraculously" pull off the alleged plan of getting rid of the teacher. 

Personally I wouldn't rule out attempting to assassinate the other royals as a motive for the attacks, but I also don't think it's the only possible motive. Also with a blunt undirected instrument like Kostas I think it makes sense to spread out your objectives, frankly I think Edelgard could do a whole lot better for an assassination attempt. 

Also in regards to killing Dimitri the kingdom is already in pretty bad shape because of the tragedy, play your hand too strongly against him and you could strengthen the kingdom's position. (We even see that a bit in crimson flower) 

Edited by goodperson707
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36 minutes ago, timon said:

Which to this day still bothers me btw.

Mate you're in chapter 9, you have at least 10 divine pulses, ragequitting at the second becase "fate" doesn't exactly make sense.

Pretty sure if we had Shambala's Thales appear during that mission to headcap our father, no amount of divine pulses are saving that green unit.

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1 hour ago, timon said:

Which to this day still bothers me btw.

Mate you're in chapter 9, you have at least 10 divine pulses, ragequitting at the second becase "fate" doesn't exactly make sense.

well there's a difference between "the player can use a mechanic which is also a major plot point" and "every rule that said mechanic must follow is true even when used in the story"

what if you used every divine pulse during that chapter? would that mean byleth just randomly and extremely conveniently gains another divine pulse point?

Edited by Yexin
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3 minutes ago, Yexin said:

well there's a difference between "the player can use a mechanic which is also a major plot point" and "every rule that said mechanic must follow is true even when used in the story"

what if you used every divine pulse during that chapter? would that mean byleth just randomly and extremely conveniently gains another divine pulse point?

Why can't I divine pulse to ace every conversation like a sociopath?

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2 hours ago, timon said:

Which to this day still bothers me btw.

Mate you're in chapter 9, you have at least 10 divine pulses, ragequitting at the second becase "fate" doesn't exactly make sense.

Do you really want a scene were Byleth attempt 9 times and is stopped everytime in a different way? How exactly you can make a scene like that dramatic and not ridicoulus?

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2 hours ago, Tharne said:

So she tells him to "kill as many noble pipsqueaks as possible" to hide her real plan which you think is "kill the teacher" and you also think that somehow the stupid bandit is going to miraculously do what her real plan was instead of doing what she asked him to do...What ??? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds ?

It's not because she's not emperor yet that she can't take actions that will make it easier for her when she will be. On the contrary it is a lot easier to deal with them now than when she will declare war and they have the might of their nations behind them.

Why miraculously? it was quiet well planned. 1. Ferdinand did mention, that maybe one of the three did know that mercenaries were in this area. 2. We don't know much about the teacher. Maybe he was easy to scare? So the plan was easy: Kostas attacked the group which leads the teacher to run away. The second part of the plan was to let the mercenaries rescue them, exactly as happened. You don't need a miracle for that, it sounds very easy. And of course she wouldn't tell Kostas her true plan. Why should she? He is just a random bandit she asked. There is no reason for him to know her plan. And everythink worked except that she didn't predicted Byleth to turn up and become teacher. Normally Jeritza would be the replacement teacher and she would have got her ally as teacher in the school. Perfect plan that way without any miracles needed.

Also if her plan was to kill Dimitri and CLaude why did she FOLLOW them? Wouldn't it be better to run in another direction than to risk her own life too? Also why was this her only plot to kill them? Why didn't she try it in other occassions? And why would she have such a dumb plan anyway? Edelgard is way smarter than letting a random thug kill Dimitri and CLaude.

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23 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Do you really want a scene were Byleth attempt 9 times and is stopped everytime in a different way? How exactly you can make a scene like that dramatic and not ridicoulus?

It was more of a joke complaint, but okay. That said "if it happened again it's fate" is still a bit random, it's just that phrase by Sothis that bothers me.

I know very well that Jeralt had to die goddamn, it's obviously a joke.

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18 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Do you really want a scene were Byleth attempt 9 times and is stopped everytime in a different way? How exactly you can make a scene like that dramatic and not ridicoulus?

Do it as a kind of montage showing Byleth getting more and more desperate each time as each event is shown in brief until snapping from the psychological stress of repeated failure. May be melodramatic from some viewpoints, but hell, so is declaring it "Fate" after one attempt at changing it. Only catch is...

Spoiler

This would make siding with Edelgard incredibly hard to swallow without some changes to that route. Mind people already complain about it for those reasons...

Mind, mileage may vary depending on the player... but hell that goes without saying. The entire theme of the TWSitD base at the tail end of the Golden Deer Route rubbed me the wrong way.

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56 minutes ago, Hauke said:

Also if her plan was to kill Dimitri and CLaude why did she FOLLOW them? Wouldn't it be better to run in another direction than to risk her own life too? Also why was this her only plot to kill them? Why didn't she try it in other occassions? And why would she have such a dumb plan anyway? Edelgard is way smarter than letting a random thug kill Dimitri and CLaude.

i mean deluding yourself is not a great way to change what edelgard actually did, or rather tried to do

whatever you want to believe, she hired bandits to kill dimitri and claude in order to achieve her goal and face less opponents later on

stupid or not, that's what she did

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Wall of text incoming. What can I say, I barely ever post in these kinds of threads, might as well do it properly now that I will.

Yes, I felt like they were a complete waste too. Thales is probably the only remotely interesting one (as he's the only one that ever does anything and doesn't die immediately afterwards), and even he is horrendous. As a Blue Lions player, I didn't even know I'd dealt with Thales until I read on the internet that he was actually Lord Arundel. That would've been a pretty decent twist if they actually, y'know, twisted it. Instead, he dies with a couple of generic lines, never dropping the act, and I'm left wondering what the heck happened to that one guy I last saw before the timeskip a couple of times.

And that's the best of them. Solon is probably the worst Gharnef in the series, if you can even call him a Gharnef (Gharnef's whole schtick is that he does things behind everybody's backs. Solon does absolutely nothing).

Kronya is cheap evil waifu bait that gets the Jeralt kill and... that's it. I did feel Jeralt's death was pretty well done (despite the fact that it was so, so predictable), but since it only takes like 30 minutes of real time to get back at her for it, there's not enough time to hate her, or really feel anything about her. Doesn't help that, despite the build-up for her weapon (from Manuela saying that she left a pretty ugly wound on Jeralt), as a boss, she's just as weak as the rest. If her weapon had any sort of special effect, I cannot remember it, because Byleth two-shot her and that was the end of it.

Then there's Cornelia, who is also cheap evil waifu bait that's a copy of Morzas. Never heard of Morzas? He's the dragon who's in charge of Altea in Shadow Dragon. Don't believe the two are comparable? Morzas killed Marth's mother, causing him great sorrow. Cornelia (among others) conspired to kill Dimitri's family, causing him great sorrow. They're both one-off, irrelevant bosses despite doing relatively important things and being relatively important figures, who are killed when the protagonist returns to retake his homeland, and are immediately shoved aside, never to be mentioned again, to make way for the masterminds behind them. They're both throughoutly forgettable and have generic designs (generic dragon in Morzas's case, generic femme fatale in Cornelia's). There are a few differences (Cornelia at least has a small backstory), but the fact that a throwaway Shadow Dragon boss of all things can be compared to one from Three Houses is just sad.

Frankly, I think it would've been better if the real versions of the people they were impersonating were actually involved in the story. As it is, the game has Seteth say "hey I think they killed the real Tomas and Monica", and the point is never brought up again. This could've opened up all sorts of possibilities: Perhaps TWSiD need the real hosts alive in order to take their appearances, so they're keeping them captive somewhere? There could've been a mission where you go to liberate them. Maybe fake Cornelia would've brought the real Cornelia out into the battlefield to confuse Dimitri, something like Gharnef in Shadow Dragon, except you're trying not to kill the real deal this time. Or maybe the real Monica would escape captivity, and hurry to the monastery to warn everybody of the danger, only arriving just in time to be blamed for Jeralt's death. And let's not forget the potential of having all of them as playable characters.

Still, this all would do little to change the fact that they're awful villains themselves. They're so unnecessary, for the most part, that I really think the best thing to do would be to remove every one of them except for Thales. Let Tomas be just a regular old man, make Cornelia her own (terrible) person who's acting of her own accord, and ditch Monica entirely. Have Thales be an independent individual working on his own terms. Have him kill Jeralt instead of wasting the kill on Kronya. Make him oversee the tragedy of Remire Village. Have him experiment on and manipulate Edelgard alone. In other words, take all the scattered good things that they all have, and throw them onto Thales to turn him into a single, but more complete villain. As far as I'm aware, there's no point in having a full-fledged organization to fulfill a handful of roles that fit in a single guy, easily.

And for God's sake, reveal that he's Lord Arundel in the Blue Lions route. It makes no sense not to do it.

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