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Killer Kronya

Can we talk about how terrible Those Who Slither in the Dark are as villains? (Spoilers Obviously)

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1 minute ago, Killer Kronya said:

Doing experiments on a baby so she can wipe it's mind and replace it with her mother's seems like attacking an innocent to me.

She never did though?

Byleth's mother begged Rhea to save the baby so Rhea did just that. She did not touch the child after that despite clearly having an opportunity to pull a fast one.

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5 minutes ago, Etheus said:

You're right but in the opposite direction. Rhea's executions, actions in the war against Nemesis, tyranny, and stamping out of dissent have likely caused way more in-universe damage than Hitler. She's actually successful in her misdeeds.

 

All characters are an amalgation of what they do. Rhea not burning Ferdhiad in the Golden Deer route doesn't erase her burning Fherdiad in the BE route. We see how she responds in desperation, and it is despicable. It is part of her. The potential for her to do this has always been there.

Fucking what, it's revealed in the full story that Nemesis is a bandit that started shit and murdered Rhea's family. She's in the wrong for rightfully fighting back when Nemesis aimed to kill her anyway??? "Tyranny" yeah ok Edelgard.

That only makes her gray, her times as a ruler before the entire mess of a war have shown her capable of providing peace and she's not fine with any discrimination. Described as "against the teachings of Seiros". Rhea isn't a tyrant, a selfish flawed person but not a tyrant.

5 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

I have no stake in this argument, but I'm pretty sure that Byleth was the first instance of the Crest Stone being used to revive a dead human, thus why they're Sothis's proper vessel. Also, it's pretty hard to say Lonato was just being used by TWSITD considering the entire Western Church seems to feel the same way, and it would be rather hard to convince an entire branch of the faith in the same line. 

Lonato was used, it's revealed his son was played by the Slithers and tried to murder Rhea.

Western Church also reveals that something's wrong though? Probably just Slither influence or disguises. 

Edited by Seazas

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1 minute ago, Seazas said:

Lonato was used, it's revealed his son was played by the Slithers and tried to murder Rhea.

Western Church also reveals that something's wrong though? Probably just Slither influence or disguises. 

The Western church consistently calls the Central Church apostates. And I deeply doubt it's just Slitherer influence, for my previously stated reasons (aka, that the numbers you face alone would make it impossible to influence all of them, and that the ones you do face seem to be just as religiously zealous as Rhea's branch). 

I don't particularly care about whether Rhea's evil or good (she annoys me, but I don't dislike her enough to smear her name) but it would be helpful to your argument to at least acknowledge some of the morally gray things that she has done. As it is, you're sort of coming off as... er... more devoted than Catherine. 

(It would also help your argument for you to not lose your temper when talking about a video game character!)

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Just now, 0 Def Cleric said:

The Western church consistently calls the Central Church apostates. And I deeply doubt it's just Slitherer influence, for my previously stated reasons (aka, that the numbers you face alone would make it impossible to influence all of them, and that the ones you do face seem to be just as religiously zealous as Rhea's branch). 

I don't particularly care about whether Rhea's evil or good (she annoys me, but I don't dislike her enough to smear her name) but it would be helpful to your argument to at least acknowledge some of the morally gray things that she has done. As it is, you're sort of coming off as... er... more devoted than Catherine. 

(It would also help your argument for you to not lose your temper when talking about a video game character!)

I said Rhea is selfish and flawed but go off I guess.

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Just now, Seazas said:

I said Rhea is selfish and flawed but go off I guess.

Lots of people are selfish and flawed, but that doesn't make them the main antagonists of a whole route. Lysithea's a selfish, flawed, childish character, but she doesn't do anything remotely along the lines of what Rhea does.

"Selfish and flawed" can be tossed at a good third of the characters in this game. A good third of the characters in this game cannot, however, be argued to be morally gray. 

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The slithers does not need to controll all of them, they need to control the bishop at the top and make him spread propaganda. 

Also, the western church only prove that some people oppose Rhea, not that they are right. Ludveck existing does not prove any flaw into Elincia's reign, just that some people wanted to run things differently.

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Just now, 0 Def Cleric said:

Lots of people are selfish and flawed, but that doesn't make them the main antagonists of a whole route. Lysithea's a selfish, flawed, childish character, but she doesn't do anything remotely along the lines of what Rhea does.

"Selfish and flawed" can be tossed at a good third of the characters in this game. A good third of the characters in this game cannot, however, be argued to be morally gray. 

I said Rhea is gray too what.

Edelgard is also heavily misguided and believed in the lies of the Empire version of the history. It shows how much she knows since she called Nemesis a "king" still.

1 minute ago, Flere210 said:

The slithers does not need to controll all of them, they need to control the bishop at the top and make him spread propaganda. 

Also, the western church only prove that some people oppose Rhea, not that they are right. Ludveck existing does not prove any flaw into Elincia's reign, just that some people wanted to run things differently.

Exactly.

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2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

The slithers does not need to controll all of them, they need to control the bishop at the top and make him spread propaganda. 

Also, the western church only prove that some people oppose Rhea, not that they are right. Ludveck existing does not prove any flaw into Elincia's reign, just that some people wanted to run things differently.

I wasn't arguing that they were right by any means, just that there was more opposition to Rhea than people who have been directly been manipulated by TWSITD.

And, er, you do kill the bishop at the top, but the church continues to believe that you're apostates when the next one comes into power, even months later. Unless you think that that person was controlled as well? 

I just think it's kind of hilarious how you're attacking me for saying "Rhea did some not great things" and clearing up some misconceptions that you had about the involvement of the Western Church, when my personal belief is that she's just a sad, pathetic woman who misses her mother, not an earth-shattering villain. 

Edited by 0 Def Cleric

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2 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

I wasn't arguing that they were right by any means, just that there was more opposition to Rhea than people who have been directly been manipulated by TWSITD.

And, er, you do kill the bishop at the top, but the church continues to believe that you're apostates when the next one comes into power, even months later. Unless you think that that person was controlled as well? 

Usually when the leader of my church get killed, i am not likely to side whit their killer in the future. I am not arguing that killing the priest was anintelligent move. Actually in this cases imo you should either pardon or purge the whole organizzation, because any other option will bite you in the ass eventually.

Edited by Flere210

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8 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Monica hid in the background a lot, plus... weren't Rhea and Seteth focusing on more important matters. Like wtf's going on, trying to keep the building safe for all students, etc?

She didn't really "Hide" that's the problem. She made no attempts at mimicking Monica's personally or at least someone who had spent a year in captivity. 

Rhea and Seteth had just found out there had been an enemy infiltrator in their school, you think they'd be on the look out for anything suspicious in the school. But apparently a student who disappear for a year and then show up with completely different personality somehow doesn't ring any alarm bells.

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1 minute ago, Warhydra said:

She didn't really "Hide" that's the problem. She made no attempts at mimicking Monica's personally or at least someone who had spent a year in captivity. 

Rhea and Seteth had just found out there had been an enemy infiltrator in their school, you think they'd be on the look out for anything suspicious in the school. But apparently a student who disappear for a year and then show up with completely different personality somehow doesn't ring any alarm bells.

"Blend in" then, because it's not until she does something that the suspicions get validated.

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Just now, Flere210 said:

Usually when the leader of my church get killed, i am not likely to side whit their killer in the future. I am not arguing that killing the priest was anintelligent move. Actually in this cases imo you should either pardon or purge the whole organizzation, because any other option will bite you in the ass eventually.

Yeah, it was definitely an unintelligent move. I'm just thinking that they'd call you "murderers" rather than "apostates" if it was just because you killed the previous leader, but maybe that's just me?
Rhea's in no state to be in control of the church, imo, and even if she's never done anything malicious in her life, someone who's lapsed in logic that badly because their mother died still has potential to cause quite a lot of harm. I think that it's a reasonable assumption to presume that not everyone disliking her does so because TWSITD manipulated them- rather, TWSITD banks off the idea of people who already dislike her, thanks to, well, her being an illogical, lonely child. The Chagall-types of this world, if you will. 

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1 minute ago, Warhydra said:

She didn't really "Hide" that's the problem. She made no attempts at mimicking Monica's personally or at least someone who had spent a year in captivity. 

Rhea and Seteth had just found out there had been an enemy infiltrator in their school, you think they'd be on the look out for anything suspicious in the school. But apparently a student who disappear for a year and then show up with completely different personality somehow doesn't ring any alarm bells.

Seteth and Rhea likely wouldn't have noticed that her personality is different. They've got several students and an entire church to run, I doubt they'll realize that just one is acting strangely.

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9 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Yeah, it was definitely an unintelligent move. I'm just thinking that they'd call you "murderers" rather than "apostates" if it was just because you killed the previous leader, but maybe that's just me?
Rhea's in no state to be in control of the church, imo, and even if she's never done anything malicious in her life, someone who's lapsed in logic that badly because their mother died still has potential to cause quite a lot of harm. I think that it's a reasonable assumption to presume that not everyone disliking her does so because TWSITD manipulated them- rather, TWSITD banks off the idea of people who already dislike her, thanks to, well, her being an illogical, lonely child. The Chagall-types of this world, if you will. 

I think this too, but i also believe that the slithers are waging an invisible war since centuries. Every single piece of lore is altered by either Rhea or TWSITD, so it's very likely that the western church believe in a "slither" interpretation of the ancient history. So while they are not behind everything, they surely are at least influenced. As for Lonato, i don't think there is direct influence of the slithers either. His son was most likely just a pawn that knew noting about who orchestrated the Duscur massacre, and after his death Lonato turned to the western church because they were confirming his idea that Rhea is evil. 

How exactly you can turn a centuries long information war behind secret factions of supernatural beings into the snozefest that we got is beyond me. This shit is straight out the World of Darkness lol.

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TWSITD are... not good villains. I was hoping the game would do more with them but it doesn't so I'm pretty content to completely ignore them beyond lore reasons.

As for the whole Rhea debate, I've personally always found her to be a better person overall than Edelgard. She left such a bad taste in my mouth that in my first BE playthrough, without knowing about the path split, I just flat refused to work with her anymore. I can't even imagine if they made her worse somehow so at least the Slitherers serve some function there.

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3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I think this too, but i also believe that the slithers are waging an invisible war since centuries. Every single piece of lore is altered by either Rhea or TWSITD, so it's very likely that the western church believe in a "slither" interpretation of the ancient history. So while they are not behind everything, they surely are at least influenced. As for Lonato, i don't think there is direct influence of the slithers either. His son was most likely just a pawn that knew noting about who orchestrated the Duscur massacre, and after his death Lonato turned to the western church because they were confirming his idea that Rhea is evil. 

How exactly you can turn a centuries long information war behind secret factions of supernatural beings into the snozefest that we got is beyond me. This shit is straight out the World of Darkness lol.

Oh, yeah, that makes sense. I thought you were suggesting they were actively influencing the Western Church, as in right now, and I couldn't understand that. I wonder what the Eastern Church is up to, though? Since they don't get developed a lot. 

Also, probably by making exactly 2 people in the supernatural information war relevant whatsoever behind the monastery phase of the game, lmao. I mean, honestly, would it have been that hard to make a couple more Agarthans?

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2 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

Can we also admit that Nemesis was the worst final boss out of the four, OST be damned?

IDK, I didn't like Hegemon that much either. But you're right, he kind of sucks. 

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5 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

Can we also admit that Nemesis was the worst final boss out of the four, OST be damned?

 

2 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

IDK, I didn't like Hegemon that much either. But you're right, he kind of sucks. 

I agree with both of you, but at least Hegemon wasn't such a complete butt pull lol. Like Nemesis showed up and I'm sitting there staring at the screen going ".... okay? Guess we're doing this now..."

Like it came completely from left field and was a bit of an immersion break... and I have really good suspension of disbelief.

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Hegemon was stupid and is a perfect example of the game going over the top evil when it didn't need to.

Anyway I wanted to throw out that I'm glad that if nothing else after 15 games we didn't get "dragons gone crazy" again, spent the whole game thinking it was coming.

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I might be in the minority, but I find TWSITD very interesting precisely because we know so little about them. Their role as mole people in the game (killing and replacing people) gives a  sinister atmosphere to the game's background and has the player speculating in a good way,. For example, the player could infer that TWSITD killed Dimitri's mother and sent Cornelia to heal the plague to put her in power, or Cornelia actually was once a genuinely good person before being killed and replaced by a member of TWSITD - the answer is open given how we only know other character's interpretations of the situation and don't know what really happened. This speculative element about Fodland's past wouldn't be as prominent as it is now had TWSITD had not existed or had their backstory been expanded on. 

They are one note in terms of personality, but if I'm being honest, I don't think the game really would have benefited had the writers made their actions "morally gray" because that role belongs to the other house lords you fight like Dimitri and Edelgard. 

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Overall I can tolerate the Slithers because they aren't made this big deal and get the role they deserve:

A small part of the Empire that gets bodied in EVERY route. Thales despite being given an important role, doesn't he die to rubble falling on him in the Church route? Or in his disguise in the Dimitri route killing it's main source of leadership while the rest get crushed with the empire?

lol these clowns never deserved to be top tier important guys.

Edited by Seazas

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Just now, Seazas said:

Overall I can tolerate the Slithers because they aren't made this big deal and get the role they deserve:

A small part of the Empire that gets bodied in EVERY route. Thales despite being given an important role, doesn't he die to rubble falling on him in the Church route?

lol these clowns never deserved to be top tier important guys.

Well yea, they're the excuse for the real antagonist. No more, no less.

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4 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

Well yea, they're the excuse for the real antagonist. No more, no less.

I prefer it to stay that way, they're a big deal in the lore but they're washed up without Nemesis and the major army they used to have. The Sword of the Creator was and still is a big deal and deciding factor for both wars.

Edited by Seazas

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