Can we talk about how terrible Those Who Slither in the Dark are as villains? (Spoilers Obviously)

[The Roger The Paladin]

4 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Yes, I felt like they were a complete waste too. Thales is probably the only remotely interesting one (as he's the only one that ever does anything and doesn't die immediately afterwards), and even he is horrendous. As a Blue Lions player, I didn't even know I'd dealt with Thales until I read on the internet that he was actually Lord Arundel. That would've been a pretty decent twist if they actually, y'know, twisted it. Instead, he dies with a couple of generic lines, never dropping the act, and I'm left wondering what the heck happened to that one guy I last saw before the timeskip a couple of times.

The same thing happened to me. Except I played through two routes. Also Golden Deer route Thales is a joke. What sort of magic user does 0 damage to Byleth with Death on the SECOND LAST CHAPTER for crying out loud? I know he has Earthquake but really? He didn't get a chance to use it because of how he's set up. (he's in a room and doesn't appear unless you open the damn door, so by the time he's able to attack you'll be too close for him to be a threat despite being able to attack all your units at once)

11 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Then there's Cornelia, who is also cheap evil waifu bait that's a copy of Morzas. Never heard of Morzas? He's the dragon who's in charge of Altea in Shadow Dragon. Don't believe the two are comparable? Morzas killed Marth's mother, causing him great sorrow

Didn't he have Liza's head on a pike off memory? Or am I making that up. I can't find mention of it anywhere but I'd swear I read it somewhere.
 

10 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

And let's not forget the potential of having all of them as playable characters.

Or having playable characters replaced. Think on it. Instead of Tomas being replaced on some routes, Solon could have got someone else.

21 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

And for God's sake, reveal that he's Lord Arundel in the Blue Lions route. It makes no sense not to do it.

I'd say the Golden Deer route as well, but Arundel is pretty irrelevant there. Thales is relevant pre-skip regardless of route and having him seemingly vanish in one route makes no sense.
 

23 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

And that's the best of them. Solon is probably the worst Gharnef in the series, if you can even call him a Gharnef (Gharnef's whole schtick is that he does things behind everybody's backs. Solon does absolutely nothing). 

Huh. I thought that Thales was the Gharnef just on the grounds he's never (near as I can tell) the actual big bad. Guy always dies before the actual final chapter. I'd have put Solon on a level closer to someone like Valter. You know. He appears a couple times early on and looks like he may be relevant but dies a lot earlier than the major bosses. Also, comparing him to Valter is being generous.

[Etrurian emperor]

6 minutes ago, The Roger The Paladin said:

Huh. I thought that Thales was the Gharnef just on the grounds he's never (near as I can tell) the actual big bad. Guy always dies before the actual final chapter. I'd have put Solon on a level closer to someone like Valter. You know. He appears a couple times early on and looks like he may be relevant but dies a lot earlier than the major bosses. Also, comparing him to Valter is being generous.

I suppose Ephidel could also be a decent comparison as they are both evil mages who manipulate things from the shadows but die fairly early.

[The Roger The Paladin]

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I suppose Ephidel could also be a decent comparison as they are both evil mages who manipulate things from the shadows but die fairly early.

Ephidel probably fits pretty well given there are times I literally forget about him (like, while thinking of someone to compare Solon to). Doesn't help the guy died by a cutscene mishap and didn't even have a boss-battle. How much lower can you go?

[Etrurian emperor]

2 minutes ago, The Roger The Paladin said:

Ephidel probably fits pretty well given there are times I literally forget about him (like, while thinking of someone to compare Solon to). Doesn't help the guy died by a cutscene mishap and didn't even have a boss-battle. How much lower can you go?

Well you could be the supposed head of the mysterious cult and still be so unimportant that one route has your death be completely off screen in the epilogue. Thales did sink pretty low there. 

 

[The Roger The Paladin]

Just now, Etrurian emperor said:

Well you could be the supposed head of the mysterious cult and still be so unimportant that one route has your death be completely off screen in the epilogue. Thales did sink pretty low there. 

 

Guess TWSitD are kind of like the actual wood at the base of the villainy barrel that got scooped in by accident when they were scraping the bottom of said barrel for the usual bandit bosses. Kind of were meant to be there to stop anything worse getting in... not to be used in product. Oopsie.

[Hauke]

1 hour ago, Yexin said:

i mean deluding yourself is not a great way to change what edelgard actually did, or rather tried to do

whatever you want to believe, she hired bandits to kill dimitri and claude in order to achieve her goal and face less opponents later on

stupid or not, that's what she did 

 

SHOW me where she said it. She did NOT say she wanted to kill Claude and Dimitri. Stop making it up. It doesn't make any sense at all, especially if SHE was the one who got nearly killed. You made this whole stuff up just because she told Kostas "Kill as many nobles as possible". This is your ONLY base for your claim that she wanted to kill them to have less opponents later. You didn't answer any of my questions at all. You just take a sentence and claim your own stuff and tell me she did say stuff she never said.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Hauke

[timon]

1 hour ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Yes, I felt like they were a complete waste too. Thales is probably the only remotely interesting one (as he's the only one that ever does anything and doesn't die immediately afterwards), and even he is horrendous. As a Blue Lions player, I didn't even know I'd dealt with Thales until I read on the internet that he was actually Lord Arundel. That would've been a pretty decent twist if they actually, y'know, twisted it. Instead, he dies with a couple of generic lines, never dropping the act, and I'm left wondering what the heck happened to that one guy I last saw before the timeskip a couple of times.

I might misremember things, but I don't think Arundel ever explicitly reveals himself. It's very heavily implied in Crimson Flower as Hubert freely interchanges his name when talking about him, but I don't think anyone ever says "this guy is Arundel/Edelgard's uncle".

Then again, it's quite an easy guess? I don't know, I figured that one out quite early, and yet had no idea Edelgard was the Flame Emperor while many people guessed that from like chapter 1. I guess it depends on you and what you pick up from the story.

That said, what is never states or clarified is if he's in disguise as well, or if he's the og. I remember that BL hints at a sudden change in Lord Arundel's doings, around the time of the tragedy, so I guess it's probably a substitute. But that would be A LOT of time in disguise, if we consider that he was the one to experiment on Edelgard (as a child) and the promoter of the nobles' rebellion in the Empire (which IIRC is 10 years before the story or something like that).

I mean it's not impossible, but it's a bit weird that no one would notice the disguise in 10 years or more. And it also makes TWSITD even more underwhelming, they have a master plan that's been going on for more than a decade and yet they can't be relevant.

Edited August 24, 2019 by timon

[CyberNinja]

9 minutes ago, timon said:

Then again, it's quite an easy guess? I don't know, I figured that one out quite early, and yet had no idea Edelgard was the Flame Emperor while many people guessed that from like chapter 1. I guess it depends on you and what you pick up from the story.

I avoided spoilers so from what I got from trailers was the church was probably evil and it was 50/50 Edelgard goes against the church or ends up working for them. I figured that Byleth was gonna be from a reviled bloodline rather than a holy one but there were theories Edelgard was the Flame Emperor because they were both shown wielding a silver axe. So that last tidbit in mind there were a few things that stood out:

1. Her constant implications of future conflict or war 

2. Hubert's dialogue with the Death Knight (2nd fight) is really odd unless they're allies, about here I was thoroughly convinced

3. Edelgard's dialogue with the Death Knight (3rd fight) effectively spoils it.

4. Edelgard will basically tell you right out after Remire if you agree to an alliance and mean it.

[Flere210]

Personally i did not realized it because i was expecting most of the parallelism to be implication that FE was Char while Edelgard was Sayla. Basically they fooled me whit the darth Vader tropes. If ghe character had those is 99% of the times a relative of X not X themselves.

[Yexin]

40 minutes ago, Hauke said:

 

SHOW me where she said it. She did NOT say she wanted to kill Claude and Dimitri. Stop making it up. It doesn't make any sense at all, especially if SHE was the one who got nearly killed. You made this whole stuff up just because she told Kostas "Kill as many nobles as possible". This is your ONLY base for your claim that she wanted to kill them to have less opponents later. You didn't answer any of my questions at all. You just take a sentence and claim your own stuff and tell me she did say stuff she never said.

i mean, if you don't believe us, just read through edelgard's page in the wikia

anyway that's not my problem, goodbye

[CyberNinja]

1 minute ago, Yexin said:

i mean, if you don't believe us, just read through edelgard's page in the wikia

anyway that's not my problem, goodbye

As a first route Edelgard player, I'm surprised that her intent to murder them was even in question.

[Eryon]

They (Slithers) are just a cop-out so that Edelgard and her empire can do their little supervillain routine without making Byleth joining them becoming even more ridiculous than it is (ridiculous for anyone outside of the Humanity Fuck Yeah crowd I mean).

Take away Pieri 2.0. for Hubert (or some other BE housemate or some imperial commander character) or make her an outright subordinate of Edy. Suddenly, it's becoming harder to sell Byleth joining Team Birdies knowing Edy's (or at least her empire which she does not oppose as an institution/hegemon) a party to his father's death.

15 hours ago, Seazas said:

Imagine comparing Rhea to Hitler lol.

Indeed. Hitler from all reliable evidence of his life only saw Germany's Christianity as something to be weeded out for something more suitable for his land, while showing plenty hostility towards the Vatican. Before that came, he and his regime advocated Positive Christianity (which namely denied the Jewish heritage of Jesus which is rather common enough in White/Black Nationalist narratives) when in public.

If we must make forced mentions of Mr. Hitler then we might as well say Edelgard is Hitler (she already has the Germanic conqueror bit).

Edited August 24, 2019 by Eryon

[Yexin]

2 hours ago, CyberNinja said:

As a first route Edelgard player, I'm surprised that her intent to murder them was even in question.

don't tell me, i know what i read

[kremelover]

I am not sure if this has already been said, but, I bet that the plot holes and vagueness will be cleared up in the DLC/sequel! 

 

[eclipse]

They needed a proper ass-kicking on the Empire route.

Though having villains appear as one-map only things might've been a neat gimmick, but it would require some grade A writing to pull it off.  Imagine if. . .

Spoiler

they believed that only the strongest survive, and that the weak are to be disposed of.  The bosses you beat?  Too weak to live, so they deserved their death.  Maybe have the usual hypocritical realization by the Big Bad that the "strong survive" mentality works until he/she is weaker than someone else.  Regardless, it would've had to have been far more than what was shown in 3H.  Doubt that DLC is gonna fix this.

 

[Spectrum]

I was really disappointed that we don't learn a lot about their tech or never really see what they can ACTUALLY do. They have existed for 1000 years, and yet, they were very shallow and amateurish. I didn't feel like they were an actual threat to the story. I wasn't afraid of them as villains. They were just.. there. I love the writing of this game, but TWISTD were severely underwhelming as antagonists. Maybe instead of taking out the last 4 chapters of Crimson Flower, we have 4 chapters of dealing with TWISTD alone. They could have used these chapters to have them add more depth to the story and their relation to it. 

[goodperson707]

7 hours ago, Yexin said:

i mean, if you don't believe us, just read through edelgard's page in the wikia

anyway that's not my problem, goodbye

Please tell me this is an appeal to popularity and not what it reads as? Not that "the community which edits a wiki also agrees with me" is that much better. 

Edited August 24, 2019 by goodperson707

[Pengaius]

TWSITD are evil cult, for sake of an evil cult, they are in the story to act as the big bads for part 1, so that there is a plot, while still allowing for each lord to have their own story that isn't “destroy evil cult" until evil cult need to die. As characters, they absolutely suck, but they were never intended to be characters, just a framing device to give the actual characters, character motivation.  In the various part 2s Thales, is there so that the player can resolve some plot threads before the final boss fight.

I'd compare TWS to Nuibaba, background evil to give the player stuff to do, so the plot doesn't get rushed. Having just enough characterisation to be a relevant enemy, while still being able to give insight into the mentality of more prominent figures, (Nuibaba is to Berkut, what TWSITD are to Byleth and Edelgard and to a lesser extent, Dimitri and Claude) 

[Eryon]

No doubt that Three Houses' narrative would be better designed if Those Who Slither were just consolidated within the empire. I suspect that they are an artifact of an earlier version of the script where there are not any route splits and you just followed the Blue Lions.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Eryon

[Mikethemaster2018]

Maybe they were supposed to the big bads but IS seen the school setting wasnt to everybody liking(non anime fans or just purist of og FE) and went shit gotta back track a bit.

[redlight]

32 minutes ago, Mikethemaster2018 said:

non anime fans or just purist of og FE

Anime was pretty flooded with high school settings not too long ago, especially magic school ones back in the day. Isekai is the new "magic high school"/"high school" that's so over saturated even in the LN and manga industry.

Edited August 25, 2019 by redlight

[Mikethemaster2018]

4 minutes ago, redlight said:

Anime was pretty flooded with high school settings not too long ago, especially magic school ones back in the day. Isekai is the new "magic high school"/"high school" that's so over saturated even in the LN and manga industry.

I know anime fan here. Still love isekai anime. Magic fantasy anime making a come back, maybe steam punk anime will too.

[Hauke]

19 hours ago, Yexin said:

i mean, if you don't believe us, just read through edelgard's page in the wikia

anyway that's not my problem, goodbye 

The wikia page is edited by humans too. So why don't you answer my questions if you're right? Really... the game NEVER says that she intented to murder Dimitri and CLaude with Kostas. Only that she wanted him to kill nobles. Show me the exact place in the game where she clearly said that she wanted Claude and Dimitri to be death in this scene. I want a normal discusion, but I don't get answers except "She tells Kostas to kill nobles this means she wanted to kill Dimitri and Claude" which isn't very convincing on it's own. Especially if I already proved you with some other informations and questions which make this assumption very unlikely in my eyes. Again:

1. Why would she kill them and bring herself in danger too?

2. Why should this be her only plot to kill them and she never tries it again in her school phase? She had a lot of oportunities to try it.

3. Why did she hire a random Bandit for it and didn't make a better plan? She has Hubert on her side who clearly would have better ideas to kill them.

4. What exactly would she tell at school? They were attacked by bandits and she was randomly the only unharmed survivor?

I just want a civil discusion, but it's not helpful if the only counter argument is 'She tells Kostas to kill nobles which means she wanted Claude and Dimitri death'. What ewxactly are your sources? Why do you asume she wanted to kill them? Wikia is not exactly a good source, really. It's edited by humans with their own interpretations too.

[Crysta]

The game doesn't need to explicitly spell it out for you.

It is sloppy for her, but the chance may have come up unexpectedly and she took the opportunity without the usual amount of forethought. She had to be there because she was assigned that mission alongside the other two and it would be suspicious if she suddenly wasn't there for some reason.

But this is all speculative, including your own hypothesis. All we know for certain is what the game presents: her intent to kill the nobles within that party, first and foremost being Claude and Dimitri because they're the only ones we encounter and the ones the bandits pursue. It's pretty clear cut.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Crysta

[MasterSlayerX]

I kind of wish slither made more appearances . Like I get that they were more of a hidden group but hardly any of the generals have a 2nd appearance once beaten down so there’s no growth in that regards of character . They have all this tech but I feel they don’t really use it as much as they could . Like surely their hideout could of had some sort of incredibly high tech lock that they had to figure out how to even get in but instead they just walk on in .

the whole Rhea discussion she is grey imo . The whole western church raising against  Rhea could very well even with influence from slither be a play for power .the way the western church are saying it is to justify a reason to fight with the Church as otherwise if they just attacked the church they would look more the villains .the execution of the western church yes this was a black choice Rhea made but you also have to look at this though the time period that fire emblem is set in . Execution for many actions were more common in those times than nowadays . Her executing those who were involved in the plot makes sense . If Rhea was of a more evil nature she would of declared war on the western church or purged the church either when she got the assassination plot or after the event that took place in the tomb.  

 

And yes I totally understand that in 1 route she completely loses her minds and does very Black deeds  like burning the town down , using the blue lions to secure her own retreat and such . BUT you have to remember why it happened . You as Byleth having sothis in you meant you had her mother inside . Before the choice making you fuse with sothis so in theory you are related . You wield the sword of the creator the same blade that took her mother’s life if I recall . Put yourself in Rheas shoes how would you react if your mother or a loved one pretty much took your enemies side and wants to kill you now with the very blade you were gifted by Rhea who also killed so many people she knew and loved?. A lot of people would snap from it . Prehaps More so Rhea considering her age too .