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Can we talk about how terrible Those Who Slither in the Dark are as villains? (Spoilers Obviously)

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15 minutes ago, MasterSlayerX said:

If Rhea was of a more evil nature she would of declared war on the western church or purged the church either when she got the assassination plot or after the event that took place in the tomb.  

Didn't she do exactly that? Dialogue after you get the Sword of creator says that the Knights of Seiros were send off to fight the Western Church. There's also Ashe's paralogue where he snoops around the destroyed Western church headquarters for some documents, as well as actually killing off the Bishops during the paralogue itself too. 

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2 hours ago, Hauke said:

The wikia page is edited by humans too. So why don't you answer my questions if you're right? Really... the game NEVER says that she intented to murder Dimitri and CLaude with Kostas. Only that she wanted him to kill nobles. Show me the exact place in the game where she clearly said that she wanted Claude and Dimitri to be death in this scene. I want a normal discusion, but I don't get answers except "She tells Kostas to kill nobles this means she wanted to kill Dimitri and Claude" which isn't very convincing on it's own. Especially if I already proved you with some other informations and questions which make this assumption very unlikely in my eyes. Again:

1. Why would she kill them and bring herself in danger too?

2. Why should this be her only plot to kill them and she never tries it again in her school phase? She had a lot of oportunities to try it.

3. Why did she hire a random Bandit for it and didn't make a better plan? She has Hubert on her side who clearly would have better ideas to kill them.

4. What exactly would she tell at school? They were attacked by bandits and she was randomly the only unharmed survivor?

I just want a civil discusion, but it's not helpful if the only counter argument is 'She tells Kostas to kill nobles which means she wanted Claude and Dimitri death'. What ewxactly are your sources? Why do you asume she wanted to kill them? Wikia is not exactly a good source, really. It's edited by humans with their own interpretations too.

No matter how you look it's clear that she wanted those two dead. The plan itself was clearly botched but her intentions are there. How I see it the plan was suppose to work out with the bandits attacking the students and in the chaos she would slip away. Their death would easily be explained as an unfortunate run in with bandits. However Claude who was of the people she wanted really dead and likely made a high priority target manged ran away leading and that ultimate lead to the events in the prologue. It was said that Claude bailed out first while Dimitri though he was acting as a decoy.

Edited by SilverArcher

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3 hours ago, SilverArcher said:

No matter how you look it's clear that she wanted those two dead. The plan itself was clearly botched but her intentions are there. How I see it the plan was suppose to work out with the bandits attacking the students and in the chaos she would slip away. Their death would easily be explained as an unfortunate run in with bandits. However Claude who was of the people she wanted really dead and likely made a high priority target manged ran away leading and that ultimate lead to the events in the prologue. It was said that Claude bailed out first while Dimitri though he was acting as a decoy.

My guess actually would have been that the plan was to kill Kostas after he served his purpose, thus guaranteeing he wouldn't mention anything. If she killed a man fighting for her life, it'd also add an air of "I was attacked too" authenticity to hide her involvement. While this doesn't make it anything but a clumsy plan... perhaps it's brilliance is that it's so clumsy no one would think of it as an assassination attempt. I mean look at the game. In the other routes does anyone even connect the dots that Kostas ever so much as met the Flame Emperor? Of course not. The tracks were covered damn well.

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Yeah; it was a weird plan; but it was pretty much impossible that would end up backfiring even if failed.

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The plan doesn't make any sense. Again WHY would she try to kill them? And why did she NEVER try it again during the school phase? Never ever? Not even once? Even killing Claude would be stupid during this phase. What would happen if he was death? The family of Gloucester would be dominant in Leicester and while they were Pro-Empire during the war, this wouldn't really benefit her. It would result in a united and strong Leicester which likely could have stand against her. It would be very risky. The civil war in leicester between Gloucester and Claude is way better for the empire than a united Leicester.

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1 hour ago, Hauke said:

The plan doesn't make any sense. Again WHY would she try to kill them? And why did she NEVER try it again during the school phase? Never ever? Not even once? Even killing Claude would be stupid during this phase. What would happen if he was death? The family of Gloucester would be dominant in Leicester and while they were Pro-Empire during the war, this wouldn't really benefit her. It would result in a united and strong Leicester which likely could have stand against her. It would be very risky. The civil war in leicester between Gloucester and Claude is way better for the empire than a united Leicester.

?

The alliance would be split between Daphnel and Gloucester, it only thanks to house Riegen that the alliance allowed for a semblance of unity during the war phase, otherwise it'd likely have split in the same way as Faerghus.

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2 hours ago, Hauke said:

The plan doesn't make any sense. Again WHY would she try to kill them? And why did she NEVER try it again during the school phase? Never ever? Not even once? Even killing Claude would be stupid during this phase. What would happen if he was death? The family of Gloucester would be dominant in Leicester and while they were Pro-Empire during the war, this wouldn't really benefit her. It would result in a united and strong Leicester which likely could have stand against her. It would be very risky. The civil war in leicester between Gloucester and Claude is way better for the empire than a united Leicester.

Unfortunately in this game, just because something doesn't make sense, doesn't mean it isn't there. There are a lot of questions the existence of the Flame Emperor brings into the equation that do not have very satisfying answers. Hence why there have been so many arguments about this character.

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2 hours ago, Hauke said:

The plan doesn't make any sense. Again WHY would she try to kill them? And why did she NEVER try it again during the school phase? Never ever? Not even once? Even killing Claude would be stupid during this phase. What would happen if he was death? The family of Gloucester would be dominant in Leicester and while they were Pro-Empire during the war, this wouldn't really benefit her. It would result in a united and strong Leicester which likely could have stand against her. It would be very risky. The civil war in leicester between Gloucester and Claude is way better for the empire than a united Leicester.

Think the reason she never really tried to kill Claude and Dimitri again is because the first time failed and she had other priorities after that. The fact the flame emperor put Kostas to the job is proof enough that Edelgard wanted the other two lords dead and right their deaths off as a bandit attack and be done with it. It's certainly not out character for to take big risk and sacrifices for the future of her goals. 

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House Riegan was on the verge of crumbling because their late Duke unexpectedly died in an accident and left no heirs. Claude was discovered and brought in to literally save the house from ruin. Killing him would have put the Alliance in even more political disarray at the time skip (the houses at the round table would be squabbling for the top spot), making her plans to sweep in and subjugate them significantly easier.

It's implied that the alliance Houses that are allied at the Empire are doing so simply under threat. Hell, killing Claude could have easily put the Alliance under Gloucester control, which helps her even further lmao. Killing him in a freak bandit accident is pretty solid.

 

Edited by Crysta

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I thought Blue Lions Cornelia was all right, she's foreshadowed before the War Phase and some connection to Dimitri backstory wise. Although her being an Agarthan isn't super relevant here so eh.

The rest are definitely underdeveloped/underutilized, Thales especially since he's their leader. Even in GD/Church, you just kinda show up to his house and kill him and he doesn't have anything particularly interesting to say.

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5 hours ago, Hauke said:

The plan doesn't make any sense. Again WHY would she try to kill them? And why did she NEVER try it again during the school phase? Never ever? Not even once?

Because doing something that didn't work the first time is a bad idea?

There's also opportunity and whatnot.  Her main target is the church, so why would she waste time on a couple of nobles when her prize is right there?

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10 hours ago, eclipse said:

 

There's also opportunity and whatnot.  Her main target is the church, so why would she waste time on a couple of nobles when her prize is right there?

I didn't even really think about that part. But it's true to a degree. I also think she kind of learned a lesson about playing the long game. Hence gradually infiltrating Garreg Mach with disguised soldiers for the battle of Garreg Mach while allowing both academy goals and TWSitD to serve as a distraction from her own actions. Point to take away is, Edelgard may have been smart enough not to repeat her mistake, but that doesn't mean she didn't make it. After all, everyone makes mistakes. It's whether we learn from them that defines us. Edelgard is most certainly the type to learn. Look at how she adapts in other routes in the Blood of the Eagle and Lion chapter. She's clearly thought about that defeat in the War of the Eagle and Lion, and made modifications to her strategy. There's a reason she so overshadows TWSitD when it comes to discussion of the game's antagonist, even though she's a playable character. As much as I've grown to dislike her, she's not a badly written character. My dislike stems from the right reasons as opposed to my dislike of Peri, who I hate for the way her supports tend to have other characters act out of character instead of developing her.

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The more I sit on the story that I played so far the more I really dislike the inclusion of TWSITD. Their whole existence wraps any all conflicts into a veil of certain house leaders just losing their brain and becoming absolutely stupid for the sake of conflict when everything and everywhere just points towards TWSITD being the origin of any and all problems. You remove their whole existence and most of the conflicts in the game suddenly become a good bit less questionable.

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They're not integrated enough with the Empire, despite the fuss made about them in the beginning. I felt like they were the weakest part of the BE-E route so far (not finished yet, 4 more chapters to go). They had enough influence render the former Emperor effectively powerless... They managed to perform cruel experiments on the imperial children without opposition... and yet somehow we don't really cross paths with them almost at all while siding with the empire, or see them do any dodgy things.  

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Its a shame I can't like Arundel more. He's got some good traits. He's got a fairly good design, his lore in the lore regarding Duscur and the uprising of the 7 is quite interesting, he dresses fabulously, he's voiced by Christopher Corey Smith. Most of all I quite like his banter with Edelgard. Its amusing how obviously they are threatening each other despite the kind words. 

But all of this is wasted on Thales and the Slitherers. Within the plot he hardly does anything interest so all his plotting in the past doesn't lead anywhere interesting. The Blue Lion route kills Arundel without him doing anything noticeable and the Black Eagle path finds him so insignificant they just skip his defeat entirely. 

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Whitout the slithers however become very difficult to have the route system they envisioned. They basically exist to commit the actions that would be too much for Edelgard or Rhea, because othereise it would be difficult to justify siding whit them. 

Like, if you have seen Edelgard's me  using crest monsters, killing your father, and trying to seal you in the Shadow Realm, it would be impossible for Byleth to side whit her. 

FE just can't nail morally gray.  RD, Fates and 3H would all work whit litlle changes, but instead they always ruin it because they can't dirt the hands of playble characters too much.

Edited by Flere210

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14 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

FE just can't nail morally gray.  RD, Fates and 3H would all work whit litlle changes, but instead they always ruin it because they can't dirt the hands of playble characters too much.

yeah that's annoying honestly. True moral gray in storytelling is hard to do because it's something that can actively shake up an audience's world view. I'll say again that fictional morality is for the most part relatively simple at least when compared to morality in real life which is way too complex. Because You just really have a hero and a villain. One is good and one is bad that's usually how it goes in stories. The audience already has an idea on who to side with because of the way it's presented. You side with the hero because they're "good" and people like to feel like they're morally in the right. People don't like to feel like they're morally in the wrong which is what true moral gray storytelling does. It actively forces the audience to question their own moral principles without really giving them a definitive answer(kinda like how morality is in real life) and people generally don't like that(I mean just look at all the discourse surrounding Edelgard's character as an example). People like to feel like they're doing the right thing or following a character that is always presented as in the right. This is why IS is so afraid to go all in with the moral ambiguity. They don't want people to feel like they're wrong which is exactly what true moral gray storytelling is supposed to do. 

I will grant 3H is probably the closest IS has gotten to that level of moral ambiguity(at least of the games I've played) but they didn't quite hit the mark. It ain't no death note but it's close if you ask me.

Edited by Ottservia

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They could go really ballsy and have all of the lords do terrible things and force the fanbase to make really ridiculous arguments to justify liking one better than the other due to their own biases.

Who wouldn't enjoy several 'is Edelgard wrong' threads?

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I was playing Suikoden 3 in the same times of 3H and the difference was like night and day. 

Both the Grasslands and Zexen have their fair share of racist assoles, both make wrong decision hastily and holds prejudices that get exploited by the big bad, wich has an understandable motive to do what he do. Zexen is overall worse, but there is no "Us good they bad."

2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

They could go really ballsy and have all of the lords do terrible things and force the fanbase to make really ridiculous arguments to justify liking one better than the other due to their own biases.

Who wouldn't enjoy several 'is Edelgard wrong' threads?

Exactly that, you need everyone to be an asshole, with the villain being just the worst of them. Fallout New Vegas is a perfect example, as it's clear the Legion is evil, but neither the NCR neither House are good guys either. 

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I didn't particularly find them all bad as villains as a whole, it largely depends on which members you're talking about and which route you're on~

Myson only exists in BL and only exists in the last chapter so no one even knows who TF he is.

Kronya is pathetic, not really arguing otherwise. She shows up in her true form once and dies. Could have at least had her escape and you kill her later to make her feel more relevant.

Solon pretty much does what he needs to do so, he's fine~

Cornelia is really the most relevant (IMO) on the Blue Lions route. Problem is, story isn't really centered on her as a TWSITD member, rather her involvement in the Tragedy of Duscur, so the impact isn't really there. And in BE, she's not that much more important either.

Arundel is basically the same deal in BL as Cornelia. He's more of an obstacle as himself than as Thales to Dimitri. In Golden Deer, he's a lot more satisfying to face but you still only fight him once. Why not have him retreat and appear in the final battle with Nemesis to make him more relevant? And OFC in BE they just allegedly deal with him off screen.

Overall, BL deals with TWSITD but not as they are as members of the organization and more on, "you're in my way of Edelgard and need to be defeated". GD deals with them directly in their hideout which is a lot more satisfying, but it feels a bit quick since Thales is only fought once. And...BE does nothing except kill Cornelia. And makes it a bigger slap in the face by saying they're dealt with off-screen despite how much Edelgard and Hubert seem to view them as a threat.

 

On 8/25/2019 at 2:30 PM, Hauke said:

SHOW me where she said it. She did NOT say she wanted to kill Claude and Dimitri. Stop making it up. It doesn't make any sense at all, especially if SHE was the one who got nearly killed. You made this whole stuff up just because she told Kostas "Kill as many nobles as possible". This is your ONLY base for your claim that she wanted to kill them to have less opponents later. You didn't answer any of my questions at all. You just take a sentence and claim your own stuff and tell me she did say stuff she never said.

~~~

 Really... the game NEVER says that she intented to murder Dimitri and CLaude with Kostas. Only that she wanted him to kill nobles. Show me the exact place in the game where she clearly said that she wanted Claude and Dimitri to be death in this scene. I want a normal discusion, but I don't get answers except "She tells Kostas to kill nobles this means she wanted to kill Dimitri and Claude" which isn't very convincing on it's own. Especially if I already proved you with some other informations and questions which make this assumption very unlikely in my eyes. Again:

1. Why would she kill them and bring herself in danger too?

2. Why should this be her only plot to kill them and she never tries it again in her school phase? She had a lot of oportunities to try it.

3. Why did she hire a random Bandit for it and didn't make a better plan? She has Hubert on her side who clearly would have better ideas to kill them.

4. What exactly would she tell at school? They were attacked by bandits and she was randomly the only unharmed survivor?

I just want a civil discusion, but it's not helpful if the only counter argument is 'She tells Kostas to kill nobles which means she wanted Claude and Dimitri death'. What ewxactly are your sources? Why do you asume she wanted to kill them? Wikia is not exactly a good source, really. It's edited by humans with their own interpretations too.

Bruh, she wanted them dead, there's literally no question that she wants Kostas to kill them because he says outright that he was hired by her to kill them. Flame Emperor is clearly disappointed by him not managing to kill them, which is a sharp contrast to when we see her harp on TWSITD members for killing people she did not know would be killed (Remire Village). That is not the case here. 

Why would she try to kill them during school phase when they now have 2 professional mercenaries literally working at the monastery now who she literally witnesses stop her first hitman and one of them is Jeralt? I'm pretty sure Edelgard is not that stupid.

How are we supposed to know why she chose what she chose? IDK why you bring up Hubert since it's very clear Hubert had nothing to do with this plan and it was all on her own. She very clearly did not want Hubert's involvement. Generally people choose hitmen that can't be traced back to themselves.

She could say that they were attacked by bandits and she was able to escape/hide/get saved before she was killed? Not very hard to come up with something. Byleth strikes Kostas and his crew down before Alois even arrives. It's not like there would be anyone there to debate it if she was successful~

Our sources are the game itself and the conversation between the Flame Emperor and Kostas. IDK what other sources are needed.

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5 hours ago, Flere210 said:

I was playing Suikoden 3 in the same times of 3H and the difference was like night and day. 

 Both the Grasslands and Zexen have their fair share of racist assoles, both make wrong decision hastily and holds prejudices that get exploited by the big bad, wich has an understandable motive to do what he do. Zexen is overall worse, but there is no "Us good they bad."

Apologies for the slight tangent, but: funnily enough I've been playing Suikoden 3 at the same time as well! The games do remind me of each other in some ways, with the three perspectives. And it's amusing how the three mains are superficially similar: a cold woman with silver hair and violet eyes, a grizzled (by anime standards) man with an eyepatch, and a darker-skinned man with green eyes. (Obviously the characters themselves are vastly different though.)

 

Anyway I'm of the opinion that this game pulled off Edelgard's grey morality pretty darn well and that's why the character is getting so much discussion and so many people who either passionately agree or disagree with her. The game would be better with less of the cultists, though. I'm actually very pleased that they're as unprominent as they are, though; I'm super-glad that they tend to die quickly and that not all routes bother dealing with them at all, because they're lame. Give me Edelgard or Rhea as the antagonist any day of the week, they're way better.

I dunno how easy it would be to remove them entirely, though.

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13 hours ago, Landmaster said:

Bruh, she wanted them dead, there's literally no question that she wants Kostas to kill them because he says outright that he was hired by her to kill them. Flame Emperor is clearly disappointed by him not managing to kill them, which is a sharp contrast to when we see her harp on TWSITD members for killing people she did not know would be killed (Remire Village). That is not the case here.  

Again, Kostas and the Flame Emperor NEVER said who his target was. They never said that she wanted them to kill Dimitri and CLaude. That's NOT started in the game at all. Of course she wouldn't tell Kostas the true reasons why she hired him and why she was disappointed. We only know that she called him for 'killing as much nobles as possible'. Nowhere did they specifiy that he targeted Dimitri and CLaude in her request. Edelgard could be dissappointed by him because he nearly killed HER. There are other possibilities and ingame there is never started that Dimitri and CLaude are her target. Why did she follow Dimitri and Claude if they were the target? Wouldn't it be better for her to run in a different direction than them in this case?

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44 minutes ago, Hauke said:

Again, Kostas and the Flame Emperor NEVER said who his target was. They never said that she wanted them to kill Dimitri and CLaude. That's NOT started in the game at all. Of course she wouldn't tell Kostas the true reasons why she hired him and why she was disappointed. We only know that she called him for 'killing as much nobles as possible'. Nowhere did they specifiy that he targeted Dimitri and CLaude in her request. Edelgard could be dissappointed by him because he nearly killed HER. There are other possibilities and ingame there is never started that Dimitri and CLaude are her target. Why did she follow Dimitri and Claude if they were the target? Wouldn't it be better for her to run in a different direction than them in this case?

They do say who his target was. "As many nobles as possible". Dimitri and Claude are nobles and literally the only ones at that being chased. It's clear that they're targets. She said him not killing anyone was why she was disappointed. 

She has more reasons to run in the same direction as them than not. Running away by herself would make it pretty obvious she knew this was going to happen and could very easily make her a suspect (not that anyone likely would have come to that conclusion but it would have been a possibility). I'm sure she'd also wants to see Kostas get the job done correctly rather than go somewhere else and just assume he kills them. Speculation aside, since it's not particularly relevant, we know that's why Kostas was hired~

If you choose to think otherwise, then you're free to do that~

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Basically, this organization exists to ensure Edelgard does not just talk to Claude and Dmitri and ally with them in undoing the whole Crest system (the Church would depend on whether Rhea accepts the explanation that "humanity has abused the gifts of the Goddess and so they should no longer be considered a sign of divine right to rule") by making her too paranoid to trust anyone other than Hubert (and Byleth, especially in CF) and anti-Church/Rhea to consider coming to some compromise/agreement to legitimize the downfall of the nobility.

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