Class Mastery guide/tier list

[charcoalswift]

2 hours ago, Tables said:

This is one specific example, and even then, I don't really see why it matters. Again, a 10% drop in speed growth is an average of 1 point lost every 10 levels. Heck, there's a 35% chance (regardless of growths) that you don't even lose ANY speed from reclassing to Paladin for 10 levels. 1 point of speed can make you miss some doubles, yeah. 1 point of strength can also make you miss some kills, 1 point of defence can make you unable to survive an enemy combination etc. It is really not a big deal.

I am more worried about getting doubled by enemies, not doubling enemies. that extra point of str or def from Paladin isn't going to help survival much.

The only workaround is Swift Strikes, the A rank lance combat art that allows attacking twice in a row but that is Player phase only (Ferdinand is my first and only Paladin, all his stats except for SPD are high, his DEF is just decent so he will die to any enemy except for slow armored units)

2 hours ago, Tables said:

This isn't really a fair comparison, because Wyvern Rider is by far the best physical advanced class. It also has a completely different skill focus, needing Axe+Flying instead of Lance+Riding. I could say the same thing about Sniper, or Assassin, or really just about any other physical advanced class.

This just proves that the optimal playstyle is to raise a Flier army lol

Forget Horse and Footlocked Emblem😉

Edited August 27, 2019 by charcoalswift

[Technoweirdo]

32 minutes ago, charcoalswift said:

I am more worried about getting doubled by enemies, not doubling enemies. that extra point of str or def from Paladin isn't going to help survival much.

The only workaround is Swift Strikes, the A rank lance combat art that allows attacking twice in a row but that is Player phase only (Ferdinand is my first and only Paladin, all his stats except for SPD are high, his DEF is just decent so he will die to any enemy except for slow armored units)

Eh, I don't really sweat about the possibility of getting doubled by Assassins; I just assume they will.
If Assassin Petra, the fastest character in the game as the fastest class in the game, fails to double them, I assume the rest of the cast will too.
Then you remember the rest of the cast has worse growths, bases, and might not even be able to go Assassin and go "Yeah, they're getting doubled".
Then you wonder what Lunatic might do and think "Shit, even Petra might suffer".

Figure you're better off sweating about OHKOs at that point or surviving the double.

[charcoalswift]

8 hours ago, Technoweirdo said:

Then you remember the rest of the cast has worse growths, bases, and might not even be able to go Assassin and go "Yeah, they're getting doubled".

The others may have worse growths but I think some like Leonie may not have to worry due to her rather high base 40% DEF growth (same as Dimitri) 

Paladin gives 5% DEF growth, so it will be 45%, which is nearly 50%

8 hours ago, Technoweirdo said:

Figure you're better off sweating about OHKOs at that point or surviving the double.

True 🙂

I think enemies will have bloated STR or MAG stats in Maddening or Infernal

[Florete]

Unarmed combat should be top because killing a dragon with bare fists is hilarious.

[Humanoid]

Yeah, but the Grappler class is a lie, I see no grappling happening. I want to get the Death Knight in a choke hold and suplex a Demonic Beast.

[Skarthe]

Vantage and Aegis in the same tier doesn't sit right with me. Vantage is niche, but it does have more usability than "useless unless you oneshot" due to the existence of Nosferatu, which is a pretty widespread spell. Vantage+Nosferatu is quite strong.  Aegis is just a random chance to take less damage from specific threats; it's useful, but never something to be relied on.

 

I don't think I'd move Vantage very far up, but I feel like Aegis could stand to go down.

[Shadow Mir]

8 hours ago, Skarthe said:

Vantage and Aegis in the same tier doesn't sit right with me. Vantage is niche, but it does have more usability than "useless unless you oneshot" due to the existence of Nosferatu, which is a pretty widespread spell. Vantage+Nosferatu is quite strong.  Aegis is just a random chance to take less damage from specific threats; it's useful, but never something to be relied on.

 

I don't think I'd move Vantage very far up, but I feel like Aegis could stand to go down.

The problem I have here is that Nosferatu is rather heavy and has only 1 might. And that isn't getting into it being limited like every other spell...

[paladin21]

On 8/27/2019 at 8:01 AM, freewaffles said:

Is there anything worth Stealing that isn't a drop?

In the silver snow route, I stole an Aurora shield at the bridge map (where you re-recruit  Lorenz) and a Lampos shield from the boss at the map where I got Ashe back.

The Lampos shield wasn't too useful other than having a "light steel shield" since no enemies had either horse-slaying weapons or arts, but being able to fly around without worrying to much was priceless.

Thinking about it, how many enemies have you seen with effective weapons that aren't drops or bows? I remember past games where the occasional slayer wielding enemy would appear and you had to take care with your placement. In this one, I think I've counted like five maces/hammers in all the route. It seems that only you're army has the technology.

[Tables]

I've made changes based on discussion here.

• Pegasus Knight High > Top
• Cavalier Upper Mid > Lower Mid
• Dark Mage Low > Lower Mid
• Paladin Upper Mid > Lower Mid
• Assassin Lower Mid > Low
• Foretress Knight Shadow Realm > Low
• Priest Lower Mid > Low

Currently considering Thief down - I felt like I was missing a number of interesting stealable stuff, especially on my BE-E and BE-C runs. I'd like to repeat my question from before: Can you steal "legendary" type equipment, for example (BE-E spoilers):

Spoiler

The Shield of Seiros from Rhea in chapter 12/17 BE-E

If you can't I'm definitely thinking Thief down to Upper Mid. I'm also thinking possibly of renaming some of these tiers, maybe splitting Low/Lower Mid into three tiers since they're pretty big right now.

[Fillion]

Hi,

I am still early on but have got to the first time where I get reclassification to beginner classes. But I'm still at level 5? Is this different to the main two 3ds games?

Can I go past level 5 commoner to level 10 and gain more skills?  Or is this a more linear route? I dare not reclassify yet until I understand.

Lastly can somebody give me a route to end up as a magic user?

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, Fillion said:

Hi,

I am still early on but have got to the first time where I get reclassification to beginner classes. But I'm still at level 5? Is this different to the main two 3ds games?

Can I go past level 5 commoner to level 10 and gain more skills?  Or is this a more linear route? I dare not reclassify yet until I understand.

Lastly can somebody give me a route to end up as a magic user?

Yes, it is different from Awakening and Fates. For one, your level doesn't reset. Second, class changing requires taking an exam - your odds of passing are dictated by the unit's proficiencies (e.g. Myrmidon requires a Sword rank of D or higher to guarantee passing). Most higher tier classes tend to require multiple proficiencies. Third, you don't learn abilities by leveling up - you learn them by increasing proficiencies and mastering classes. All that being said, if you want to end up as a mage (I don't know if this is for Byleth or anyone else), you'll want to go through Monk first, than Mage, than Warlock, ending at either Dark Knight or Gremory (the latter of which is female exclusive). Warning: To pass Dark Knight will also require Riding and Lance proficiency, and Gremory requires faith proficiency (you need Reason proficiency for these, as well).

[Humanoid]

3 hours ago, Fillion said:

Hi,

I am still early on but have got to the first time where I get reclassification to beginner classes. But I'm still at level 5? Is this different to the main two 3ds games?

Can I go past level 5 commoner to level 10 and gain more skills?  Or is this a more linear route? I dare not reclassify yet until I understand.

Lastly can somebody give me a route to end up as a magic user?

The key point is that being certified for a class is not the same as reclassing. Certification simply enables the new class to be selected, but you may freely switch between every class you're certified for at basically any time out of combat. The only reason to not certify for a class therefore is simply the cost of the Beginner Seal (assuming some level of save-scumming if you fail the exam).

Now to optimise, realise that classes give two different types of stat increases. One is simply a flat bonus granted when you're currently in that class, which is not particularly noteworthy. The other is a base stat increase that increases your true stat up to a certain minimum, the values can be seen here. These are permanent and therefore very desirable and worth certifying as soon as possible for in order to get maximum value. (To check whether a given certification gives this bonus, on the certification screen after you select a target class, hit ZR to go to the stat screen and then X and highlight each stat to see the base value)

For example, a Soldier has a minimum Str of 8 as shown in the table. If you certify as a Soldier while your Str is 5, you get +3 Str essentially for free. If you wait as a Commoner until your Str is already 8, you get nothing. So certify as soon as possible, even if you plan on switching back later.

So why would you want to switch back to a previous class? You get a special skill for "mastering" a class, which is basically just staying in a class for long enough. For example, there is some short-to-medium term value in staying in the Noble/Commoner class in that mastering it gives you the HP+5 skill. This is a skill that will probably be unequipped by the time you're around level 20, but eventually becomes obsolete. The downside is that you miss out on time enjoying the higher growth rates of the newer classes, and your mastery of them may be delayed. Often times, mastering is simply not worth it, but this heavily depends on the particular class. The Brigand, for example, gives the excellent Death Blow for mastering it, so you'd almost always want to get it.

[XeKr]

I don’t think I have major disagreements or anything, I just want to note that sometimes it can be beneficial to go straight into an advanced class given how big a jump it can be for base stats or if the next map really favors it (due to terrain). There may be opportunities later to master that lower class.

One thing I’m unsure about is soldier though. There’s only 5 levels to intermediate and there’s a pretty big jump there to stuff like Brigand or Pegasus or Cavalier. At least 1 move (+jumpstart on deathblow), up to 2 and flying/canto, or 3 and canto. In my experience, even in casual runs, I find the only beginner mastery I tend to get is monk. Additionally while Reposition is very good, you have a lot more move and mobility tools like Canto and Warp/Rescue, and a lot more units relative to enemy density, compared to FEH. So it feels less relatively useful in that sense. 

I sorta see top tier as “I would stay in the class for mastery in a blind lunatic run” (at least for non-unique/master) and I’m not sure soldier fits in there. Not sure about “strong consider diverting”.

Also, perhaps not worth bumping but more a notable thing for Vantage, greenhouse statboosters make Vantage ohkos reasonable (especially Lysithea who masters at double speed and can just adjutant a map or two). Also while it was mentioned briefly, it’s worth noting Vantage/Wrath(/Defiant) has a few advantages in this game compared to the past in that, it’s 3x dmg again, and crit is a lot higher due to luck contributing and battalions giving a lot and still some class/ability bonuses so that 100% is possible, and Retribution means it works at nearly all ranges (tho not ballista and Gambits). More fun than that useful, but pretty much all class masteries are in the current state of the game. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by XeKr

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, XeKr said:

Also, perhaps not worth bumping but more a notable thing for Vantage, greenhouse statboosters make Vantage ohkos reasonable (especially Lysithea who masters at double speed and can just adjutant a map or two). Also while it was mentioned briefly, it’s worth noting Vantage/Wrath(/Defiant) has a few advantages in this game compared to the past in that, it’s 3x dmg again, and crit is a lot higher due to luck contributing and battalions giving a lot and still some class/ability bonuses so that 100% is possible, and Retribution means it works at nearly all ranges (tho not ballista and Gambits). More fun than that useful, but pretty much all class masteries are in the current state of the game. 

The problem I have with this is that you cannot savescum for stat boosters, for one (and honestly, I think that greenhouse stat boosters are as legit as barracks boosts in FEA - aka, not at all). Second, Lysithea is weak in swords, so good luck trying to have her qualify for Mercenary knowing that. (Sure, she has a budding talent in swords, but that's three tutoring sessions minimum before that - and that assumes that she had her motivation maxed out every time - and honestly, that'd be better spent getting her to Warp)

Edited August 29, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Tables]

I absolutely don't think Soldier should move down. Reposition is incredibly powerful, I don't think it's any exaggeration to say it's the single most game changing class mastery ability, and it can be learned quickly. It's made even stronger than it was in Heroes due to things like Canto, which means you can easily use Reposition with little or no sacrifice to a units positioning.

It doesn't have to be mastered immediately though - if one prefers they can get the Cethleanne statue bonus first and then switch back and finish mastering Solider. The "blind playthough" point I feel is not really valid - in a blind playthrough you don't know the value of mastering each class, you don't know the difference in growths etc. It's not really an environment where you can reasonably compare the value of mastering classes. And while yeah, the Intermediate classes do give slightly better stats, it's not really by much. Typically it's about 3-4 points of stats, and increased movement for many of them. The higher move is definitely the big thing you miss out on for the likely 1-2 extra maps it takes to master Soldier.

[daisy jane]

this is great. 
I have to say i have 3 units who mastered Lethality: Ignatz, Petra and Byleth. Byleth never activated it, Petra did it 4 times, and Ignatz did it 5-6 times in 3 playthroughs. It's really not worth it (unless that's the class you plan to keep them in then that's a-okay.). 

in regards to darting blow- I've been doing flying emblems for the past 3 playthroughs (BL, and the 2 BE paths) and  while it is female only - i basically have it on several on my falcon knights (my version of swift sparrow lol). it IS the one i do remove for someone like Ingrid (who has like 40 speed so she doens't need 46) but for someone like Bernie who for 2 playthroughs i couldn't figure out how to make up for her  speed growths - the next 2 playthroughs i basically have the majority of her level ups in the Pegasus line. she does some work in mercenary to help with her strength - so when she's ready for Falcon knight she's able to do some damage. (I've been lucky and with the online programme i bought her deathblow) the last playthrough i had, I only had to give her two strength boosts. 

ii think my next playthrough i am going to try to get everyone a lance so they can all be Soliders (and get Repo) except for magic for the drawback. though sometimes i wish i had the shove instead of repo (and vice versa)

[Skarthe]

17 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem I have with this is that you cannot savescum for stat boosters, for one (and honestly, I think that greenhouse stat boosters are as legit as barracks boosts in FEA - aka, not at all). Second, Lysithea is weak in swords, so good luck trying to have her qualify for Mercenary knowing that. (Sure, she has a budding talent in swords, but that's three tutoring sessions minimum before that - and that assumes that she had her motivation maxed out every time - and honestly, that'd be better spent getting her to Warp)

Warp is more important, but she doesn't have a ton of super high immediate priorities after Faith B, so there's no reason that she can't dip to Swords C after that to certify Mercenary. Additionally, due to how quickly she'll master classes, she can dip to it at almost any time; she can master the class within the durability of a Levin Sword, so putting her on it for a couple of paralogues or aux battles isn't difficult.

Also, keeping high motivation on units that you're actively using is pretty trivial, between gifts, meals, lost items, and MVP.

[Tables]

With the release of Maddening difficulty I feel like this list may be worth revisiting. I'm currently playing through quite slowly, only up to chapter 6, so don't have a great feel for everything, but I do already feel that enemy phase performance is probably going to be more important on Maddening - enemies seem to die a lot more slowly, plus there are more enemies and same turn reinforcements, so being able to take hits and deal them back hard feels like it'll be more relevant. On top of that I feel like you can master classes more quickly, because more enemies + more rounds of combat to get kills = more chances to gain class EXP. Not sure how much impact that has on skills yet, but I do think things might shift a bit.

[Silly]

I'm not going to go through every ability and see whether it gets better/worse on the new mode, but I will point out specifically that AS feels a lot more important on most characters, so access to Darting Blow/Speed +2 early on becomes nicer.

By far the biggest "buff" to enemies on Maddening is a massive AS increase, which indirectly translates to a huge bulk/offensive increase as well. If you no longer double the enemy, they become much bulkier. If you get doubled by the enemy, then your own survivability goes way down. The AS benchmarks required to double generic enemies are significantly higher, and many units that were comfortably doubling on Hard are very borderline at doubling now. The extra speed really helps in the mid-game, since it turns many 2RKOs into ORKOs.

For example, in the Shamir + Alois paralogue, enemy Wyvern Riders have 22 AS and are way too bulky to be one-shot (outside of a really high strength unit with a Silver Bow). At the point in the game that you probably are at, these Wyverns are impossible to double without Darting Blow, but a Darting Blow unit can double them and possibly get an ORKO. For reference, level 15 Pegasus Hilda has roughly 19 AS, which puts her only 1 speed away from doubling Wyverns with Darting Blow. With a single stat booster, a cooked speed meal, one or two more levels worth of exp, or just above average level ups previously, she is at the doubling benchmark. Without Darting Blow, she is incredibly far from doubling.

[Tables]

I've finished Maddening (no NG+) difficulty, and I feel like there's a decent number of changes that need to be made.

As @Silly points out, enemies are WAY faster on Maddening. Darting Blow becomes a lot more important, even fast characters like my Falcon Knight Leonie was relying on Darting Blow for a lot of doubles. I think that 100% secures Pegasus Knight as a top tier mastery. I'm not sure if it should move Myrmidon up, since Swap is pretty mediocre - in fact Swap I'd say is niche enough that it would probably be a tier below, if not for Spd+2. So probably Myrmidon stays where it is. On the other hand, Desperation can go down - doubling is even harder now and Cavalier is not a great class to go through for doubling, so it feels way more niche than it used to be.

One big change on Maddening is how much easier class mastery becomes. With a higher enemy density and enemies often taking significantly more rounds of combat, you get a lot more class EXP compared to Hard. This means Advanced and Master classes are considerably quicker to master - e.g. on Hard I was barely getting Quick Riposte before endgame even when promoting to Warmaster ASAP. On Maddening I waited a few chapters, and still mastered Warmaster with a few chapters to spare before the end. As a result, I think that the Advanced and Master classes with very strong mastery bonuses go up a fair bit.

With enemies being so much tougher, especially early in the game, I feel that things which help you survive are more valuable, as well as enemy phase performance throughout the game. HP+5 can probably go up based on that. Defiant Avo is also quite feasible to take advantage of, especially when stacked with other avoid sources. Lategame enemies in Maddening only have around 15 more hit than on Hard, which isn't really THAT much.

There's a few other things I've simply found are pretty good which I'd underrated before. On high power, slow characters (Dedue, Raphael, Gilbert), staying in Grappler for Fierce Iron Fist is insanely valuable. @Cysx pointed it out way before and I kind of read it and was like "Huh, that's neat." I did eventually try it out - my Raphael mastered Warmaster and went straight back to Grappler - and my goodness it's worth it. On Maddening, Seal skills are pretty strong, especially against giant beasts, as you often cannot ORKO many enemies - knocking one of their defensive stats down by 5 can help you clean up afterwards.

 

So with all of that said, here's the tier changes I think should be made to adapt this list for Maddening:

Up

War Master (Quick Riposte/War Master's Strike): Upper Mid > High

Commoner/Noble (HP+5): Lower Mid > Upper Mid

Wyvern Lord (Defiant Crit): Lower Mid > Upper Mid

Wyvern Rider (Seal Def): Lower Mid > Upper Mid

Barbarossa (Wind God): Low > Lower Mid

Bow Knight (Defiant Spd): Low > Lower Mid

Dark Knight (Seal Res): Low > Lower Mid

Falcon Knight (Defiant Avo): Low > Lower Mid

Grappler (Tomebreaker, Fierce Iron Fist): Low > Upper Mid (Is Upper Mid or Lower Mid more reasonable? I feel it was very underrated before)

Great Lord (Paraselene): Low > Lower Mid

Sniper: (Hunter's Volley): Low > Lower Mid (Not as sure on this one - Sniper vs Bow Knight is much less of a good final class compared to Grappler vs Warmaster, and you can emulate Hunter's Volley more easily with Brave Bow/Inexhaustible).

Emperor (Flickering Flower): Bottom > Low

 

Down

Thief (Steal): High > Low (Big jump but it's just become painfully apparent that there really isn't enough of value to steal. 1-2 good shields and a few Master Seals notably, but you get lots of decent accessories anyway so even those shields aren't insanely powerful).

Cavalier (Desperation): Lower Mid > Low

 

So, yeah. A lot moving up and only a few things moving down, but I think that's fair - right now the list was very bottom heavy anyway.

Before I make any changes I'd like to hear feedback, especially from others who have specific opinions on things that are much stronger or weaker on Maddening.

 

(nb. checked with eclipse before posting as this technically falls under necrobumping, they gave the go ahead)

[Shadow Mir]

I would say Lifetaker should go down. Accessibility issues aside, it only restores half the HP the enemy had before you attacked them. Ergo, for it to do much, you'd have to kill what you're attacking while they're healthy. Safe to say that won't be happening much on Maddening.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[PPPPPPP270]

I don't understand the value of the FEH movement skills in a game where you have more than 2 movement. I did get draw back on my Linhardt one maddening mode playthrough but I never used it because I could just physic and do something more important that making my Linhardt move one extra space. 

The other class mastery stuff is still good for the most part. Although I think certain skills like steal might be not as useful in maddening mode as the things you want to steal are on really fast units like the aurora shield on Ladislava or Nader making it almost impossible to steal.

[Tables]

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would say Lifetaker should go down. Accessibility issues aside, it only restores half the HP the enemy had before you attacked them. Ergo, for it to do much, you'd have to kill what you're attacking while they're healthy. Safe to say that won't be happening much on Maddening.

That's a fair point. Definitely less good in Maddening than it was on Hard. I'll pencil that in to move down unless someone wants to defend it.

 

53 minutes ago, PPPPPPP270 said:

I don't understand the value of the FEH movement skills in a game where you have more than 2 movement. I did get draw back on my Linhardt one maddening mode playthrough but I never used it because I could just physic and do something more important that making my Linhardt move one extra space. 

The other class mastery stuff is still good for the most part. Although I think certain skills like steal might be not as useful in maddening mode as the things you want to steal are on really fast units like the aurora shield on Ladislava or Nader making it almost impossible to steal.

Later on, yeah mages often have better things they can do, but the ability to pull someone out of danger can still be pretty helpful on occasion. Reposition is honestly the big powerful one, since it's so ridiculously versatile and valuable. I was probably using it something like 20 times per map through most of Maddening mode, being able to hit and run easily, shunt non-fliers over any number of walls (especially useful in chapter 13 I found), keep the entire army moving quickly enough to outmanoeuvre or just outrun reinforcements etc. was really strong.

[Fire Flower]

Does Darting Blow prevent enemy doubles, or does it only affect your own attack doubles when you attack first?

[FoliFF]

12 minutes ago, Fire Flower said:

Does Darting Blow prevent enemy doubles, or does it only affect your own attack doubles when you attack first?

It will prevent doubles as long you were the one that initiated the fight and have atleast 4 AS more than the enemy. Which usually happens considering 6 points in speed is equal to 6 points in AS.