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Class Mastery guide/tier list

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36 minutes ago, IonicAmalgam said:

It takes about 3400 to get to S+, you can get 430 xp per month in flying (no tutoring) if the unit has a boon, 250 xp on the low end on higher difficulties if unit is neutral So that is between 8 to 14 months (assuming a month is 4 weeks of training, and 6 free battles where the unit gets 5 kills with knowledge gem equipped and in a class with +3 training)

With knowledge gem (+1), boon (+2), statue (+2), class (+3) you get 9 xp/kill on normal, 7 on hard, 7x5x3x2, 210xp from free battles alone in a month. You can get 32xp/week if you train only flying neutral affinity, 4 more from pair activity. Without focus is around 24 xp/week (normal), down to 18 on hard. So 72 or 105 xp/month from training on hard with neutral affinity. Tutoring can give you 40xp per week at best, twice per month is 80xp, low end 60xp.

I still say I don't see that happening without going completely out of your way to make it happen. Especially on harder difficulties, when considering the malus given to weekday lesson experience. It doesn't help the only classes that give +3 to Flying experience are Advanced or Master classes. On Maddening, you probably won't be battling much, other than for paralogues and quest battles. 

36 minutes ago, IonicAmalgam said:

For holy knight you only need C+ Lance, C+ Faith, and B+ Riding to be able to roll RNG to unlock. The first and last are not that hard to get. Faith is somewhat challenging but not that hard either. It's about 2 months of tutoring focus and skill usage.

That depends on the character. And there's still the matter of Holy Knight being inferior to the class that precedes it because it gives up White Magic Uses x2, meaning less healing and support spells, and what do I get to make up for this? Nothing! Also, in case you missed it, only two units can get Rescue (which was nerfed to having a range of Magic/4), and one of those two (Flayn) is weak in Riding, meaning she has a harder tome getting into Holy Knight (not that I think it's worth it, because it isn't).

36 minutes ago, IonicAmalgam said:

I was able to get A+ professor rank in month 6 and S+ in month 8 first playthrough so 3 battles/month is definitely possible.

I don't see it - I didn't get A+ Professor rank (the highest you can get) until right before the timeskip. And this was with me saving my bait for the second Fistfuls of Fish event.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I still say I don't see that happening without going completely out of your way to make it happen. Especially on harder difficulties, when considering the malus given to weekday lesson experience. It doesn't help the only classes that give +3 to Flying experience are Advanced or Master classes. On Maddening, you probably won't be battling much, other than for paralogues and quest battles. 

That depends on the character. And there's still the matter of Holy Knight being inferior to the class that precedes it because it gives up White Magic Uses x2, meaning less healing and support spells, and what do I get to make up for this? Nothing! Also, in case you missed it, only two units can get Rescue (which was nerfed to having a range of Magic/4), and one of those two (Flayn) is weak in Riding, meaning she has a harder tome getting into Holy Knight (not that I think it's worth it, because it isn't).

I don't see it - I didn't get A+ Professor rank (the highest you can get) until right before the timeskip. And this was with me saving my bait for the second Fistfuls of Fish event.

Most of the xp will come from battling. If you don't battle with fliers then you are right it is hard. On harder difficulties keep in mind the xp gain is per fight not kill so you can still get enough from battle. Pegasus Knight is +2 to flight and the difference of 2 vs 3 can be made up by tutoring.

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Again on Holy Knight what it gives is better growth rates. You are focusing only on skills. Also terrain resistance is really amazing for the last golden deer map.

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How I got to A+ in month 6: 1) Arena gives more professor XP than Food, 2) Did nothing but explore, arena, and share meal for a few months 3) Saving bait is not worth it if you can get more explore points earlier as each explore point is worth quite a bit of xp per month. I only saved one month of bait for it. did abuse the fishing competition though, purposely fail and you get xp

 

 

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33 minutes ago, IonicAmalgam said:

Again on Holy Knight what it gives is better growth rates. You are focusing only on skills. Also terrain resistance is really amazing for the last golden deer map.

That doesn't make up for being a worse class than Bishop, which also has Terrain Resistance. Once again: Losing doubled healing and support spells for pretty much nothing of note in return equals a flat-out losing trade. Why in the seven hells would I want to go out of my way to qualify for Holy Knight when it'd be better to stay as a Bishop or go to Gremory instead if you're female???

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I'd like to point out that growth rates don't matter for master classes.

By the time you reclass into them you likely only have 10 more levels before the game is over. 15 if you take some extra time to rout maps.

A 10% difference in growth on your master class is literally only 1 point of difference by the end of the game, and even less than that in the chapters before the endgame.

Also, in terms of support, I do think the best magic class is Bishop if you have Physic/Fortify, and Gremory if you're Lysithea (or Manuela, but she has a little bit of trouble making it there due to her Reason weakness).

If you want to do combat, then Dark Knight is the best choice by far, but your combat will probably end up worse than a generic Wyvern Lord.

Edited by Silly

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

That doesn't make up for being a worse class than Bishop, which also has Terrain Resistance. Once again: Losing doubled healing and support spells for pretty much nothing of note in return equals a flat-out losing trade. Why in the seven hells would I want to go out of my way to qualify for Holy Knight when it'd be better to stay as a Bishop or go to Gremory instead if you're female???

The only support skill you lose is warp, there is no need for doubled healing whatsoever, the only times I've run out of heal were before month 3 when money was tight and I couldn't buy vulnerarys. Flayn doesn't need to be a holy knight you can use her 3x rescue in lieu of warp (warp flayn with manuela turn 1 and have her rescue, flayn has better range anyway). If you run dark knight or holy knight on your physical units they can use heal as well, and both classes are superior to great knight. You have more movement as Holy Knight as well and canto. You seem to be considering only for magic classes but physical classes can use holy knight as well. Holy Knight is much easier to sidegrade into for physical units than Bishop since you only need C+ in faith, and physical units will do well in horses anyway. Holy Knight provides physical units 10 res, most physical units lack res base growth, and this makes a huge difference in leveling (if you use timewheel). Dark Knight does too, some units prefer the +10 luck over +5 Str growth. For physical units they aren't going to use spells anyway so the main benefit is growth rate.

If you optimize for growth rate C+ Faith is much easier to reach than C+ Reason since you would have leveled the physical units in Monk and they would be D or D+ in faith already. Monk provides Res which is good for physical units and has no stat penalties.

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A 10% res growth rate in master class is roughly equal to a +6 Res by end game with minimal turnwheel usage. With a hexshield, res batallion and heavier turnwheel usage that can completly nullfy magic weakness of physical units. Eg Leonie who has base res growth of 15 has 32 Def and 32 Res in my game as a result of leveling in Holy Knight. Thanks to the timewheel, a 10% growth impact is much higher. The chances of you not getting a res growth is actually impacted by 20%. (.75^4 = 31% chance no res growths in 3 mulligans, retreating on a map resets the RNG. .85^4 = 52% chance no Res growth)

Edited by IonicAmalgam

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38 minutes ago, IonicAmalgam said:

The only support skill you lose is warp, there is no need for doubled healing whatsoever, the only times I've run out of heal were before month 3 when money was tight and I couldn't buy vulnerarys. Flayn doesn't need to be a holy knight you can use her 3x rescue in lieu of warp (warp flayn with manuela turn 1 and have her rescue, flayn has better range anyway). If you run dark knight or holy knight on your physical units they can use heal as well, and both classes are superior to great knight. You have more movement as Holy Knight as well and canto. You seem to be considering only for magic classes but physical classes can use holy knight as well. Holy Knight is much easier to sidegrade into for physical units than Bishop since you only need C+ in faith, and physical units will do well in horses anyway. Holy Knight provides physical units 10 res, most physical units lack res base growth, and this makes a huge difference in leveling (if you use timewheel). Dark Knight does too, some units prefer the +10 luck over +5 Str growth. For physical units they aren't going to use spells anyway so the main benefit is growth rate.

If you optimize for growth rate C+ Faith is much easier to reach than C+ Reason since you would have leveled the physical units in Monk and they would be D or D+ in faith already. Monk provides Res which is good for physical units and has no stat penalties.

____

A 10% res growth rate in master class is roughly equal to a +6 Res by end game with minimal turnwheel usage. With a hexshield, res batallion and heavier turnwheel usage that can completly nullfy magic weakness of physical units. Eg Leonie who has base res growth of 15 has 32 Def and 32 Res in my game as a result of leveling in Holy Knight. Thanks to the timewheel, a 10% growth impact is much higher. The chances of you not getting a res growth is actually impacted by 20%. (.75^4 = 31% chance no res growths in 3 mulligans, retreating on a map resets the RNG. .85^4 = 52% chance no Res growth)

And doubled uses for Physic, Restore, etc. Also, Rescue range is only Mag/4, meaning you won't have particularly long reach with it for most of the game. Just to put things into perspective, Rescue had 10 range in Fates. To match that in this game, you need 40 Magic. You won't be seeing that until you're late in the game. At any rate, Holy Knight has pretty much bupkis that would convince me it's worth going out of my way to access. The +10 Resistance growth doesn't help much considering that it's only 1 extra point in Resistance every 10 levels on average.

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On 11/11/2019 at 3:04 PM, IonicAmalgam said:

How I got to A+ in month 6: 1) Arena gives more professor XP than Food, 2) Did nothing but explore, arena, and share meal for a few months 3) Saving bait is not worth it if you can get more explore points earlier as each explore point is worth quite a bit of xp per month. I only saved one month of bait for it. did abuse the fishing competition though, purposely fail and you get xp

Did you use your bait as you obtained them, or did you save for other earlier fishing events?

Edited by msterforks

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On 11/11/2019 at 9:04 PM, IonicAmalgam said:

How I got to A+ in month 6: 1) Arena gives more professor XP than Food, 2) Did nothing but explore, arena, and share meal for a few months 3) Saving bait is not worth it if you can get more explore points earlier as each explore point is worth quite a bit of xp per month. I only saved one month of bait for it. did abuse the fishing competition though, purposely fail and you get xp

fistful of fishes event is on month 8 and month 12
assuming you got the month mixed up with che chapter, it's still not possible by chapter 6. Earliest that's humanly possible is I believe by chapter 9.

Even assuming you savescummed for EVERY bait in the fishing tournament, the most prof exp you can get is 1000 points (50 baits x 20 exp per fish, since you can only catch light blue ones for points in that event) (and this is already highly unrealistic)

1000 points are not NEARLY enough to get to A+ by chapter 6 lol

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I'm really not sure why we're okay with considering fishing dozens of unnecessary times in non-grind play. If we're considering repetitive, time-consuming activities, then boss abuse and arena abuse in the appropriate games should be fair game as well.

(To be clear, I'm fine with anyone who wants to do that on their own playthroughs, but it seems like something a tier playthrough should frown on.)

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On 11/11/2019 at 2:45 PM, Shadow Mir said:

And doubled uses for Physic, Restore, etc. Also, Rescue range is only Mag/4, meaning you won't have particularly long reach with it for most of the game. Just to put things into perspective, Rescue had 10 range in Fates. To match that in this game, you need 40 Magic. You won't be seeing that until you're late in the game. At any rate, Holy Knight has pretty much bupkis that would convince me it's worth going out of my way to access. The +10 Resistance growth doesn't help much considering that it's only 1 extra point in Resistance every 10 levels on average.

A +10% resistance growth is not 1 point in every 10 levels on average if you only have 10 level ups. Statistics doesn't work like that at low sample rates.

Assuming a player does a single timewheel for level ups (level up at end of battle, roll back if the levels are bad, and do the level up next battle), a 25% res level up odd means 75% chance no level up. 1-(75% no level up ^2) = 44% chance of getting a res level up per each level up. That is significantly better than a 15% chance res level up (85% chance no level ^ 2 = 28% chance of a res level up).

At low sample sizes, you have a 1% chance of not getting a single res point in 8 levels at a growth rate of 25. You have a 10% chance of not getting a single res point in 18 level ups at growth rate of 15. So a +10 growth rate impacts the odds much more than it appears on the surface. A 10% growth rate bonus, regardless of what stat, significantly reduces the chance your unit will be screwed by RNG.

In fact, the +10 growth means in 10 level ups (with a single reroll per level), you have a 46% chance of getting 5 or more res points. (see https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx). Without the growth, you only have a 11% chance of doing so.

If you reroll levels three times instead of one (which is not hard if you do auxiliary battles, just bring 10 units and only use half of them, the ones who get good levels, and you have 3 battles/weekend), the +10 growth rate bonus changes the math to a having a 65% chance of getting a res point per each level you keep. 65% is much higher than the 15% growth rate the unit starts at. If you don't reroll 3 times but just hold off on bad levels until the next battle, the odds are still much better (at 44%). With 3 rerolls, you have a 90% chance of getting 5 or more res level ups per 10 levels.

Quote

1000 points are not NEARLY enough to get to A+ by chapter 6 lol

I misspoke, I thought max was S+, turns out max is A+, I got B+ at chapter 6 and A+ in chapter 8.

Edited by IonicAmalgam

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21 minutes ago, IonicAmalgam said:

A +10% resistance growth is not 1 point in every 10 levels on average if you only have 10 level ups. Statistics doesn't work like that at low sample rates.

Actually, that is exactly how they work, with the key words being "on average". The expected value of a character's res after 10 levels with (X+10)% growth is exactly 1 point higher than the expected value of a character's res after 10 levels with X% growth. Sometimes it'll be more, sometimes it'll be less, but 1 is the average difference. If you want to talk about lower bounds fo (i.e. RNG screwing, such as the 10th percentile of possible values), then +10% res growth is actually less important than that, not more. (Too lazy to post the math now.)

Also it goes without saying that I don't think we should consider RNG abuse.

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15 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Actually, that is exactly how they work, with the key words being "on average". The expected value of a character's res after 10 levels with (X+10)% growth is exactly 1 point higher than the expected value of a character's res after 10 levels with X% growth. Sometimes it'll be more, sometimes it'll be less, but 1 is the average difference. If you want to talk about lower bounds fo (i.e. RNG screwing, such as the 10th percentile of possible values), then +10% res growth is actually less important than that, not more. (Too lazy to post the math now.)

Also it goes without saying that I don't think we should consider RNG abuse.

The odds of getting level ups is based on the binomial probability calculator (which is to say, given X rolls with Y chance of getting a level up, what is the odds of getting Z or more level ups). You can use the calculator and throw the odds in there. I haven't made up the statistics. If you want a proper normal distribution (aka matching "on average") you need sample sizes of at least 100, ideally 1000. Players are not going to level up 100 levels in a class, and in practice players will see results that deviate from the norm significantly. Ignoring small sample sizes and focusing on the picture at the whole is disingenuous (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy). In fact statistics 101 will tell you that for any sample size below 20 you need to do significant adjustments. Averages are only part of the picture, and averages alone are meaningless. 

If you want to ignore a single timewheel undo if the level up is bad (which is very easy for players to do an I imagine quite a few players do this):
Without the +10 growth means a 1% chance of getting 5 or more res points in 10 level ups, and a 56% chance of getting 2 or less.
With the +10 growth means a 8% chance of getting 5 or more res points in 10 level ups and a 24% chance of getting 2 or less.

So the 10 points has greatly increased the odds of you getting good growths while greatly reducing the costs of getting screwed.

As for why players should do a single timewheel undo, a single timewheel per level up (if the level up is bad) bumps that 8% chance to 46of getting 5 or more res points.

Edited by IonicAmalgam

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If people want to discuss how relevant tiny growth differences are for one of the worst mastery classes, could they do it elsewhere? Skimming through I don't think I've seen a single thing from @IonicAmalgam that's on topic and relevant, is there any points that would actually be worth paying attention to?

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On 11/13/2019 at 8:46 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm really not sure why we're okay with considering fishing dozens of unnecessary times in non-grind play. If we're considering repetitive, time-consuming activities, then boss abuse and arena abuse in the appropriate games should be fair game as well.

(To be clear, I'm fine with anyone who wants to do that on their own playthroughs, but it seems like something a tier playthrough should frown on.)

Thought about this for a while. Playthrough efficiency is often measured by turn count, whether they're tracked or not (IE Tower of Valni). 3H has grinding mechanics outside of the traditional turn count system, which is why fishing for hours is okay but any auxiliary battles are not.

imo an efficient playthrough should exclude mass fishing. Part of the reason why we don't include grinding is that units differentiate themselves less; everyone becomes too powerful relative to the enemies. In a similar vein, units will struggle to differentiate themselves when professor levels are so free. iirc even a Blue Lions LTC got Dimitri enough axe and flying rank to Wyvern Rider, perpetuating the Wyvern Emblem meme.

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7 hours ago, msterforks said:

Thought about this for a while. Playthrough efficiency is often measured by turn count, whether they're tracked or not (IE Tower of Valni). 3H has grinding mechanics outside of the traditional turn count system, which is why fishing for hours is okay but any auxiliary battles are not.

imo an efficient playthrough should exclude mass fishing. Part of the reason why we don't include grinding is that units differentiate themselves less; everyone becomes too powerful relative to the enemies. In a similar vein, units will struggle to differentiate themselves when professor levels are so free. iirc even a Blue Lions LTC got Dimitri enough axe and flying rank to Wyvern Rider, perpetuating the Wyvern Emblem meme.

I have a question following this idea of grinding. I never do aux battles / quest battles ( i view them as the same in grinding) / mass fishing. But I always explored and whenever I had too many points (very often past the time skip since I chose EO on most runs) I would spend them all on gaining money. Would people count arena usage this as grinding? I did not care for the weapons / seals which I sold anyways, but it allowed efficiency playthroughs because forging killer + and silver + weapons allowed 1rounding enemies. And when you have enough money from this, the game is trivialized because of combat arts with extra crit / battalions / divine pulse rng resets. The extra money also allows purchasing everything from Anna for stat boosters/ items and forging even better weapons like Levin + / so many Wo Dao+ for Byleth. Theres no need of fishing at this point because you can make so much food from buying ingredients and you can afford greenhouse seeds / soil.

Would spending left over points count in arena/combat hall count as grinding? 

Edited by Johnzin

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On 11/20/2019 at 1:21 PM, Johnzin said:

I have a question following this idea of grinding. I never do aux battles / quest battles ( i view them as the same in grinding) / mass fishing. But I always explored and whenever I had too many points (very often past the time skip since I chose EO on most runs) I would spend them all on gaining money. Would people count arena usage this as grinding? I did not care for the weapons / seals which I sold anyways, but it allowed efficiency playthroughs because forging killer + and silver + weapons allowed 1rounding enemies. And when you have enough money from this, the game is trivialized because of combat arts with extra crit / battalions / divine pulse rng resets. The extra money also allows purchasing everything from Anna for stat boosters/ items and forging even better weapons like Levin + / so many Wo Dao+ for Byleth. Theres no need of fishing at this point because you can make so much food from buying ingredients and you can afford greenhouse seeds / soil.

Would spending left over points count in arena/combat hall count as grinding? 

Even with tournament abuse, fishing is still useful if only for bullheads.

Tournament abuse needs to be addressed in one way or another. I'm about to hit A+ professor level in ch8 (finishing up first week of exploring with ~4k exp to A+), and I haven't even done the second fistful of fish event. I didn't realize how broken tournament abuse was; fistful fishing doesn't even hold a candle to it.

The problem is where to draw the line. Without any tournaments or auxiliary battles, there's very little gold income. We'd have to forgo battalions, full weapon sets, and any nice-to-have items like torches and concoctions. This is sounding more like a challenge run rather than a typical efficient playthrough.

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9 hours ago, msterforks said:

Tournament abuse needs to be addressed in one way or another. I'm about to hit A+ professor level in ch8 (finishing up first week of exploring with ~4k exp to A+), and I haven't even done the second fistful of fish event. I didn't realize how broken tournament abuse was; fistful fishing doesn't even hold a candle to it.

The problem is where to draw the line. Without any tournaments or auxiliary battles, there's very little gold income. We'd have to forgo battalions, full weapon sets, and any nice-to-have items like torches and concoctions. This is sounding more like a challenge run rather than a typical efficient playthrough.

You can get a fair bit of money even with just one tournament per month - you have your monthly income during White Clouds, get periodic bullions (especially from some paralogues), plenty of dropped weapons, trashy things you can sell (less than in many previous FEs, but there are still some questionable stat boosters and weaponry you don't need). I feel like unless you spam gifts as your motivation restoration method, gold shouldn't be a major problem.

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Usually efficiency is measured in turns or resources, not irl time, wich makes those things hard to evalutate.

Also, i would argue that turnwheel uses are a resource, so if you don't use them to fix mistakes you should use them to reroll growth.

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3 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Usually efficiency is measured in turns or resources, not irl time, wich makes those things hard to evalutate.

Also, i would argue that turnwheel uses are a resource, so if you don't use them to fix mistakes you should use them to reroll growth.

I would strongly oppose considering RNG abuse in tier list discussions, which is exactly what rerolling growths are. Growths are a major part of character worth and RNG abuse can largely remove them as factors.

Same with things like rigging crits. Fine for a speedrun, but not really the sort of gameplay I'm personally interested in discussing.

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5 minutes ago, msterforks said:

RNG abusing level ups is possible with divine pulse? How do you advance the level up RNG? I tried attacking/killing/leveling up in different orders, and leveling up on different turns. Nothing seemed to stick.

As I understand it, your level ups are rolled at the start of battle. The only way to get a new level up roll is to have that character earn a level up in a totally different battle. You can't just attack from a new angle like you could when abusing save states in GBA. So the RNG abuse in Three Houses people talk about is at the end of a battle where a character gets a bad level up. You can Divine Pulse backward and give that exp to somebody else, and save that original character's level up for next battle. It's a minor optimization but with level ups being so infrequent on Maddening I can see why people care so much.

Edited by Glennstavos

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I swear I've tried saving the level up for a new turn and vs a new enemy, but I'll go check again when it comes up.

It's definitely not just a minor optimization. Every point of strength and speed is so valuable on Maddening, and if you can rig even more stats than that, even better.

Edited by msterforks

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Personally i only consider it abuse if you have to reset the game. You can only turnwheel a limited amount of times and you can't really reroll levels on the same units. It's not like rerolling bexp on FE9 where you can end a battle whit 90 exp and then get a perfect level at no cost.

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9 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

As I understand it, your level ups are rolled at the start of battle. The only way to get a new level up roll is to have that character earn a level up in a totally different battle. You can't just attack from a new angle like you could when abusing save states in GBA. So the RNG abuse in Three Houses people talk about is at the end of a battle where a character gets a bad level up. You can Divine Pulse backward and give that exp to somebody else, and save that original character's level up for next battle. It's a minor optimization but with level ups being so infrequent on Maddening I can see why people care so much.

Rng abusing to get level up stats starts breaking tier lists if everyone is just going to be good. When I am talking Rng abuse, it is to re-set the number that was your hit / crit by burning it through a different action that uses that number. I haven't really seen people talking about RNG abuse for leveling cause that require to complete I believe 1 full turn of the chapter, then reset your game To change the level up.

I agree with the above statements that resetting the game is abuse. I think Divine Pulse as a resource for a crit / hit, you get like 8-10? Divine pulses depending on the statues and the sothis paralogue. I think of that as <8-10 guaranteed crits/hits at needed times (boss killing or strong enemies)

Example for hit

Dark spike Lys w/ 60% hit - miss.

Divine Pulse. Curved Shot Ignatz w/ 100% hit - hits a barracade. Then Dark Spike Lys 60% again - hit. Used the first number and objective complete without resetting the game.

Example for crit - works same way

Smash & killer + Petra w/ 80% hit & 55% crit - miss. 

Divine Pulse. Curved shot Bernie w/ 100% hit - hit. Petra attempts to crit again, but just regular hit and no crit. 

Divine pulse. Bernie re-hits. Ferdie attacks to burn second number anything. Petra attempts to crit and gets the 55% crit roll.

Edited by Johnzin

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