Rhea is an excellent foil for Edelgard *SPOILERS*

[Julian Solo]

On 10/24/2019 at 7:44 AM, Jingle Jangle said:

For me what do both of them have in common is:

• Losing their family due to crest related events.
• Putting disguises to convince people
•  Willing to lie to the public,
• Have the crest of Seiros
• Willing to change society 

But the thing that gets me the most is that one of Edelgard's biggest arguments against Rhea is the latter lying about the history of Fodlan. Yet Edelgard is willing to lie to the public about a town's destruction on a drop of a hat. And this is never brought up again same with the Flame Emperor. I'm unsure if this is a writing issue or intentional with Edelgard herself. Then again in her ending having an "unseen war" with TWSITD feels that she lacks self-awareness.

CF story was very rushed with tons of inconsistencies. But basically yeah she's very naive. Just look at the Ferdinand A support she had no idea how her society would actually work. We never get to see her reaction to her history being a fake one as well.

[Arachnofiend]

On 10/24/2019 at 9:44 AM, Jingle Jangle said:

For me what do both of them have in common is:

• Losing their family due to crest related events.
• Putting disguises to convince people
•  Willing to lie to the public,
• Have the crest of Seiros
• Willing to change society 

But the thing that gets me the most is that one of Edelgard's biggest arguments against Rhea is the latter lying about the history of Fodlan. Yet Edelgard is willing to lie to the public about a town's destruction on a drop of a hat. And this is never brought up again same with the Flame Emperor. I'm unsure if this is a writing issue or intentional with Edelgard herself. Then again in her ending having an "unseen war" with TWSITD feels that she lacks self-awareness.

"Drop of a hat"? The town was destroyed because the Slitherers dropped a nuke on it as a way to tell her and Hubert not to screw with them. Killing Cornelia was an error; the entire point of that chapter is to display how she's not ready to directly confront Thales, and she pays for it by having to lie to her friends again and cover up what Thales has done for him.

I don't know where people get this impression that Edelgard can just do what she wants, because she can't. Right now her entire regime is predicated on Thales's support - she wouldn't have even been able to depose Aegir if he wasn't in favor of it. It's only after the war, when she has developed her own resources and allies independent of the Slitherers, that she can break away from him.

[Jingle Jangle]

 

 

 

 

 

3

5 hours ago, Arachnofiend said:

"Drop of a hat"? The town was destroyed because the Slitherers dropped a nuke on it as a way to tell her and Hubert not to screw with them. Killing Cornelia was an error; the entire point of that chapter is to display how she's not ready to directly confront Thales, and she pays for it by having to lie to her friends again and cover up what Thales has done for him.

I don't know where people get this impression that Edelgard can just do what she wants, because she can't. Right now her entire regime is predicated on Thales's support - she wouldn't have even been able to depose Aegir if he wasn't in favor of it. It's only after the war, when she has developed her own resources and allies independent of the Slitherers, that she can break away from him.

I mean afterward, Edelgard does not show any regrets of lying for what 2rd/3rd major time to her classmates. Not to the general public, but to people that she been by her side for years at that point. Since there is no followup to that scene, I guess she forgot it happened?

[Modirufa6317]

10 hours ago, Arachnofiend said:

"Drop of a hat"? The town was destroyed because the Slitherers dropped a nuke on it as a way to tell her and Hubert not to screw with them. Killing Cornelia was an error; the entire point of that chapter is to display how she's not ready to directly confront Thales, and she pays for it by having to lie to her friends again and cover up what Thales has done for him.

I don't know where people get this impression that Edelgard can just do what she wants, because she can't. Right now her entire regime is predicated on Thales's support - she wouldn't have even been able to depose Aegir if he wasn't in favor of it. It's only after the war, when she has developed her own resources and allies independent of the Slitherers, that she can break away from him.

On the japanese version, Cornelia express surprise that Edelgard would go against them, saying something like "so in the end, we were the one being manipulated all along".

With that in mind, Thales nuking the city feels more like a desperate attempt at scaring her, but fail at it. Edelgard's army are the one in power in Crimson Flower, not TWSITD.

That would also explain why the TWSITD's destruction get off-screened : they never stood a chance once she learned to trust other peoples.

[Ivan Tridelan]

21 hours ago, Modirufa6317 said:

On the japanese version, Cornelia express surprise that Edelgard would go against them, saying something like "so in the end, we were the one being manipulated all along".

With that in mind, Thales nuking the city feels more like a desperate attempt at scaring her, but fail at it. Edelgard's army are the one in power in Crimson Flower, not TWSITD.

That would also explain why the TWSITD's destruction get off-screened : they never stood a chance once she learned to trust other peoples.

This is probably accurate. In CF she has Byleth and the war has tipped in her favor, leaving her considerably less reliant on TWS. Pre-time skip, sure, she is definitely the weaker party but in CF? She's winning the war by that point, the Empire is behind her and as such, she is in a position where she could probably win against TWS even if through sheer numbers. Arundel's influence is much lower when the Emperor is winning the war and leading from the front lines.

By the way, if Hubert  figures out the location of Shambala from the use of the nukes, like he does in SS/VW, TWS might as well have sealed their doom by destroying Arianrhod. And as for lying to her classmates, to be fair they're winning the war and they're gearing up for Tailtean Plains battle which is going to make or break the campaign. Telling them "our own allies are actually enemies-to-be and have city-destroying missiles and destroyed the city just to spite us" is going to destroy morale and make people doubt the cause right before a critical battle. People like to use that as a point against Edelgard, but it's entirely logical under the circumstances. Especially since the BE Strike Force is the centerpiece of the campaign, having them stricken with doubt is going to seriously impede the war effort.

[Arachnofiend]

23 hours ago, Modirufa6317 said:

On the japanese version, Cornelia express surprise that Edelgard would go against them, saying something like "so in the end, we were the one being manipulated all along".

With that in mind, Thales nuking the city feels more like a desperate attempt at scaring her, but fail at it. Edelgard's army are the one in power in Crimson Flower, not TWSITD.

That would also explain why the TWSITD's destruction get off-screened : they never stood a chance once she learned to trust other peoples.

Excuse me for not taking an out of context quote as unilateral fact. The bombing of Arianrhod is the one point in the story where Hubert is genuinely horrified, they were not expecting that response.

[Timlugia]

Makes me wonder why didn’t TWSITD bombs Enbarr on Edelgard’s victory celebration (CF mural), they could rid off whole imperial leadership in one hit since they already achieve what they want by killing Rhea.

[Hardric62]

31 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

Makes me wonder why didn’t TWSITD bombs Enbarr on Edelgard’s victory celebration (CF mural), they could rid off whole imperial leadership in one hit since they already achieve what they want by killing Rhea.

 

I'm going to guess it's because the dubstep missiles can't actually be used willy-nilly, because even outside CF, missile strike to Enbarr during VW or SS (heck, even AM, I don't think Tharundel was the only one to know how to fire them) would have atomized both Edelgard, Rhea, the 'Fell Star' and their best elements in one move. And they're not the sort of choir boys to shy away from that type of tactics.

[Timlugia]

Well, in other route Edelgard was loyal to Silther till the end, they had no reason to bomb her, in CF she told them the friendship wouldn’t last long after they killed Croneilla.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Timlugia

[Nihilem]

Maybe Enbarr was also protected quite similiar to Garreg Mach. It was after all the place most of the Nabateans sought shelter after the war. So it was probably protected.

[MrPerson0]

16 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

(heck, even AM, I don't think Tharundel was the only one to know how to fire them)

This actually could have very well been the case, seeing that's how nukes/missiles work in today's time. Lose one key person, it's very hard to replace them.

1 hour ago, Nihilem said:

Maybe Enbarr was also protected quite similiar to Garreg Mach. It was after all the place most of the Nabateans sought shelter after the war. So it was probably protected.

I think Enbarr was just a familiar place to the Nabateans. After all, it had a church (where Seteth and his wife met) before the Church of Seiros even formed. Garreg Mach being "protected" is due to Sothis placing an enchantment over it or something.

Edited October 29, 2019 by MrPerson0

[Nihilem]

1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

I think Enbarr was just a familiar place to the Nabateans. After all, it had a church (where Seteth and his wife met) before the Church of Seiros even formed. Garreg Mach being "protected" is due to Sothis placing an enchantment over it or something.

While there is neither any evidence in support or against that Enbarr is protected, most of the ancient magic are actually advanced technology. And from the description of this "Protective Power" (changing the course of the missile to hit somewhere else) it sounds quite like a device that messes with navigationprogramms of the rocket. (Interestingly the Sci-Fi Series "Battlestar Galactica" utilized similiar devices as protective "shield" against missiles, but that is another story... ) And if there is one device that can do that it is highly likely that there were more of them to protect critical parts of nabatean society in the war. The main aspect of technology is after all that you can easily copy it as long as you know what you are doing and have the materials for it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 10/28/2019 at 3:26 PM, Hardric62 said:

I'm going to guess it's because the dubstep missiles can't actually be used willy-nilly, because even outside CF, missile strike to Enbarr during VW or SS (heck, even AM, I don't think Tharundel was the only one to know how to fire them) would have atomized both Edelgard, Rhea, the 'Fell Star' and their best elements in one move. And they're not the sort of choir boys to shy away from that type of tactics.

Yeah, I definitely agree with this. But...

 

Sadly I don't think the nukes really make much sense. The slitherers have so. damn. many. good opportunities to use them and they literally never accomplish anything of note with them. No named character is ever killed by them, on any route.

We see Rhea leave Garreg Mach (for the battle of eagle and lion, presumably every year, if nothing else, but she obviously does it other times as in Catherine/Ashe's paralogue), why not nuke her then if she's their greatest foe?

In CF, why not nuke Fhirdiad as soon as Rhea/Seteth/etc. hole up there?

In AM/VW/SS, why not nuke Byleth (and Dimitri, Claude, etc.) when they're at Myrddin, or Dirdrieu, or various other places? Or heck, Ailell, where we know a spy reports their position weeks in advance? If the slitherers are as well-placed as the game otherwise implies, it's hard to believe that Count Rowe would know without them also knowing.

And as mentioned, they seemingly have no way to back up their threat to Edelgard in the end of CF.

The nukes in general just don't feel very well thought-out by the writers.

[Modirufa6317]

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, I definitely agree with this. But...

 

Sadly I don't think the nukes really make much sense. The slitherers have so. damn. many. good opportunities to use them and they literally never accomplish anything of note with them. No named character is ever killed by them, on any route.

We see Rhea leave Garreg Mach (for the battle of eagle and lion, presumably every year, if nothing else, but she obviously does it other times as in Catherine/Ashe's paralogue), why not nuke her then if she's their greatest foe?

In CF, why not nuke Fhirdiad as soon as Rhea/Seteth/etc. hole up there?

In AM/VW/SS, why not nuke Byleth (and Dimitri, Claude, etc.) when they're at Myrddin, or Dirdrieu, or various other places? Or heck, Ailell, where we know a spy reports their position weeks in advance? If the slitherers are as well-placed as the game otherwise implies, it's hard to believe that Count Rowe would know without them also knowing.

And as mentioned, they seemingly have no way to back up their threat to Edelgard in the end of CF.

The nukes in general just don't feel very well thought-out by the writers.

 - In chapter 4, it's revealed they intended to steal the remains of Seiros and didn't expect to find a sword instead : in other words, they didn't know that Seiros was still alive, as well that Rhea = Seiros until she revealed her dragon form. That's why they had no plan to nuke anything until post-timeskip.

 - Firing off a nuke expose their location, so it's a major risk for them. So it wouldn't be worth it, as long there's a chance that Seiros will avoid the attack (and she would, as she doesn't care that much about the capital to protect them at this point).

 - Remember that the empire army was winning the wars. So they didn't feel the need to use the nukes (and again risk their location to be exposed) until the tide started to get reversed. And in the AM route, Arundel/Thales didn't expect Cornelia and her robots to be defeated, and then didn't expect the BL army to ambush them while he was trying to take down the Alliance (who were greatly weakened). The surprise effect is what stopped them from using the nukes.

 - By the end of any route, the entirety of Fodlan is unified. At this point, their nukes wouldn't have made a difference, as no matter how powerfull they are, they're still lacking in ressource.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Fair points.

It does still feel to me like the nukes were crafted to give the player a good scare on non-Azure Moon routes, but never amount to anything that actually matters because of a variety of reasons (which, as you pointed out, are more credible than I was giving them credit for).

[silverserpent]

After playing through the routes, I can safely say that both Edelgard and Rhea need serious counseling. Edelgard moreso than Rhea. Playing CF and SS killed me due to every single plot convo making me want to hurl something at them. A little bit of talking would go a long way, and this is coming from an introvert. Edelgard especially ticked me off with her "get rid of the goddess" schtick, and it's just, "...you do realize she's in my head and can hear you, right? No? Okay, wait a couple chapters."

[The Exalt]

On 10/30/2019 at 12:58 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

The nukes in general just don't feel very well thought-out by the writers.

This

[Julian Solo]

There's also the fact the Slithers are so incompetent. They didn't try to teach anyone else how to fire them besides Thales. He is the only one we ever see use them. VW, CF and AM show without the Dukedom or Adresias army they are completely powerless to do anything.

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Julian Solo

[Clueby]

On 8/27/2019 at 11:37 PM, StormyAngel said:

You're ignoring the fact that the ultimate major power (Rhea) would absolutely fight tooth and nail against changing the crest/nobility system. There's a reason it's still around after 1000 years, and she is it. Diplomacy might have worked with everyone else, but definitely not Rhea. It's part of how she maintains her power, and she zealously guards her power.

What why? What made you think that? Rhea didn't create the crest system it is the nobles themselves who imposed it. Yes she calls them blessings of the Goddess but it's not like she thinks someone with a crest is superior. In fact the crest in most noble families were created by the murderers of her race. If anything, she should hate them. 

She may have abused her power to manipulate history and do vessel shenanigans. But ultimately her goal isn't power and she isn't hungry for it. 

[Timlugia]

15 hours ago, Julian Solo said:

There's also the fact the Slithers are so incompetent. They didn't try to teach anyone else how to fire them besides Thales. He is the only one we ever see use them. VW, CF and AM show without the Dukedom or Adresias army they are completely powerless to do anything.

 

Maybe there is a limited how many shots they have, noted that Thales put his hand on the third circle in the cutscene.

Especially consider it's based on orbital weapon, perhaps they lost the ability to launch more into the orbit.

 

My question would be why didn't TWISTD used it again Edelgard on her victory celebration (CF mural)?

like since Edelgard already told them they would be no longer friends after killing Rhea, they knew they were going to war soon.

This would be a perfect chance to wipe out whole imperial leadership, and TWISTD would have no problem mopping up remaining resistance

[Altrosa]

I think it’s worth adding that the Agarthans completely ruined Fodlan with their nukes. The whole reason Sothis went into hibernation was because she wore herself to the bone restoring the natural land. If they had the means to nuke everything, they didn’t have the means to repair the damage. 

[Ivan Tridelan]

15 hours ago, Altrosa said:

I think it’s worth adding that the Agarthans completely ruined Fodlan with their nukes. The whole reason Sothis went into hibernation was because she wore herself to the bone restoring the natural land. If they had the means to nuke everything, they didn’t have the means to repair the damage. 

It also provokes the question of just how many nukes they could possibly have left? Furthermore, they aren't really nukes if you consider how many of them are needed to level an area. The area covered by each one is displayed in the opening cutscene (where Seiros kills Nemesis). Which is another reason for them to be stingy with them.

That being said, there were a number of opportunities to use them, and in CF using them on Arianrhod was stupid, considering they still need BE Strike Force to kill Rhea. Using some of your precious few missiles as a mere warning? Stupid. Just level Fhirdiad while Rhea's and Edelgard's forces are fighting there. It's not shielded like Garreg Mach, after all.