You could remove the Church route and lose nothing of value *spoilers*

[CyberNinja]

4 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I'd say Church was developed first just because the nobody soldiers don't look like Alliance forces, and they're in the grand total of two unique cutscenes you have in GD.

 

Well yea, because they're the troops that are used for units in formation for church route bearing the black orange of the Black Eagles resistance army under the banner of the crest of flames.

[Crysta]

1 minute ago, CyberNinja said:

Well yea, because they're the troops that are used for units in formation for church route bearing the black orange of the Black Eagles resistance army under the banner of the crest of flames.

MYSTERY SOLVED

color swaps are too hard

I guess they could just be Seiros soldiers that tagged along but eh

[CyberNinja]

2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

MYSTERY SOLVED

color swaps are too hard

I guess they could just be Seiros soldiers that tagged along but eh

Actually they tried to hand wave it away by having Claude arbitrarily decide to make this a holy war and use the banner of flames in his little resistance army that has nothing to do with the alliance despite being led by the alliance's nominal leader. Basically all those church route related things like Byleth's obsession with Rhea, hesitance about fighting Edelgard, all that? That's thanks to Golden Deer being a reskinned Church route. Sorry Meme house, you're the cheap rip off, Edlegard's main route is where you're killing her and her alt route was barely completed in time.

[Crysta]

lol Claude would totally try to use Byleth/the church to his advantage that way, though.

But yeah, I agree with that conclusion.

[CyberNinja]

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

lol Claude would totally try to use Byleth/the church to his advantage that way, though.

But yeah, I agree with that conclusion.

Not saying he wouldn't, just that you can see where they welded the parts together.

[Mark the Tactician]

17 hours ago, CyberNinja said:

Actually they tried to hand wave it away by having Claude arbitrarily decide to make this a holy war and use the banner of flames in his little resistance army that has nothing to do with the alliance despite being led by the alliance's nominal leader. Basically all those church route related things like Byleth's obsession with Rhea, hesitance about fighting Edelgard, all that? That's thanks to Golden Deer being a reskinned Church route. Sorry Meme house, you're the cheap rip off, Edlegard's main route is where you're killing her and her alt route was barely completed in time.

Huh, no wonder Claude seemed like such a 'third-wheel' during his route... and that's that I did his path first.

Honestly, it's disappointing that his route and the church route are simple re-hashes of one another.

[NegativeExponents-]

18 hours ago, CyberNinja said:

Actually they tried to hand wave it away by having Claude arbitrarily decide to make this a holy war and use the banner of flames in his little resistance army that has nothing to do with the alliance despite being led by the alliance's nominal leader. 

It wasn't arbitrary though. Having the the faithful back you up and be percieved as having the moral higher ground are things that are beneficial for a war. It's something that's been done since Ancient Egypt. Would have been strange to not to have done so unless he had some personal beef with the church.

Personally I don't think any route "came first" With the way some things only make sense if Claude was there and some things that only make sense if you branch from Black Eagles, it's probably two separate routes that ended up being merged together due to time constraints or something instead of either being a "cheap rip off"

Edited September 7, 2019 by NegativeExponents-

[Crysta]

I'm pretty sure they didn't do the routes side-by-side, and I think they've admitted they worked on the Black Eagle content first.

They do re-use the SS content for 90% of the cutscenes, at the very least, and it sucks lol. Nemesis is the only truly big, unique thing beyond Claude being the narrator... and while I liked it I'm not sure why he was pulled out only for GD lol.

[NegativeExponents-]

10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I'm pretty sure they didn't do the routes side-by-side, and I think they've admitted they worked on the Black Eagle content first

If that's true then how come this thread exists and CF is the shortest and maybe even the most criticized route? I call shenanigans on Black Eagles being worked on first.

[Crysta]

Because people naturally go with the advertised lord first, then go back to play SS and go "WTF is this?" when they see the same content.

I don't call shenanigans. It may be the shortest route, woefully, but it seems to offer plenty of unique content/story. It would require more focus to do right just on a narrative standpoint.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Crysta

[CyberNinja]

1 minute ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Personally I don't think any route "came first" With the way some things only make sense if Claude was there and some things that only make sense if you branch from Black Eagles, it's probably two separate routes that ended up being merged together due to time constraints or something instead of either being a "cheap rip off"

Ok that's a nice opinion.

1 minute ago, NegativeExponents- said:

If that's true then how come this thread exists and CF is the shortest and maybe even the most criticized route? I call shenanigans on Black Eagles being worked on first.

Like I said its a nice opinion, but the cutscenes explicitly use the assets for the Silver Snow Faction soldiers and during the "Death of the Flame Emperor" cutscene, Claude is conspicuously absent when every other similar cutscene has Byleth with the lord. (All Azure Moon cutscenes, for example)

As for your point here, popular opinion does not mean its a fact? Most people did Golden Deer before they did Silver Snow since most who did Black Eagles did Crimson Flower instead. Its pretty clear in hindsight that Claude has almost nothing to do with his own route.

[Very epic FE gamer]

But that route is for gamers

[NegativeExponents-]

41 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Because people naturally go with the advertised lord first, then go back to play SS and go "WTF is this?" when they see the same content.

I don't call shenanigans. It may be the shortest route, woefully, but it seems to offer plenty of unique content/story. It would require more focus to do right.

The most advertised lord was Edelgard though so there's gotta be a fair share of people who went Black Eagles and then Church route first before Verdant Wind.

I can't argue with it being unique but it feels underdeveloped for something that was worked on first.

38 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

Ok that's a nice opinion.

Like I said its a nice opinion, but the cutscenes explicitly use the assets for the Silver Snow Faction soldiers and during the "Death of the Flame Emperor" cutscene, Claude is conspicuously absent when every other similar cutscene has Byleth with the lord. (All Azure Moon cutscenes, for example)

As for your point here, popular opinion does not mean its a fact? Most people did Golden Deer before they did Silver Snow since most who did Black Eagles did Crimson Flower instead. Its pretty clear in hindsight that Claude has almost nothing to do with his own route.

Drop that patronizing attitude cuz I didn't come here with any ill will towards you.

Ok, admittedly I have not seen the cutscenes for the routes yet and my knowledge from the other routes stories comes from reading up on them and not actually playing through them so I thought lord being absent was the M.O. my mistake and I'm willing to admit that does support SS being developed first with VW just tacking on Claude onto it.

I did not mean to equate opinion to fact just that it was strange for the routes that got so much priority and favoritism to not live up to expectations compared to those that seemingly got sidelined.

Edited September 7, 2019 by NegativeExponents-

[Crysta]

I'll let someone who accidentally played SS before VW give their take on which they liked better if they care at all, because I'm not one of them, but it feels like the majority of players who embarked on BE successfully managed to get the Edelgard route. There was certainly a marketing focus at play, but I can see why: it's the first time they're giving you the chance to side with the villain of the story. And honestly Edelgard is a well-crafted character they put a lot of work into. To make her be the typical female lord afterthought would be dumb.

Claude deserves credit for being able to carry reskinned content arguably better than the original cast, but they slept on the GD story.

[Very epic FE gamer]

I'm a gamer

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Crysta said:

I'll let someone who accidentally played SS before VW give their take on which they liked better if they care at all, because I'm not one of them, but it feels like the majority of players who embarked on BE successfully managed to get the Edelgard route. There was certainly a marketing focus at play, but I can see why: it's the first time they're giving you the chance to side with the villain of the story. And honestly Edelgard is a well-crafted character they put a lot of work into. To make her be the typical female lord afterthought would be dumb.

Claude deserves credit for being able to carry reskinned content arguably better than the original cast, but they slept on the GD story.

Was Edelgard a confirmed villain in the prerelease info? I played Black Eagles first but failed to get the oppertunity to side with her.

[Crysta]

idk i thought "THE CRESTS ARE TO BLAME, TEACHER" was pretty ominous, but I guess it didn't spell it out

[Jotari]

35 minutes ago, Crysta said:

idk i thought "THE CRESTS ARE TO BLAME, TEACHER" was pretty ominous, but I guess it didn't spell it out

For the record, I didn't look at any prerelease info after the initial. So that was a sincere question. Not sure how obvious that was.

[Sire]

Gonna toss out my theory on route development, and I have posted this elsewhere a couple of times. (I personally have finished all routes but the Church Route, which I'm still on Part One on.)

* * * * *

Yes, Edelgard was likely designed first. She is the primary force of change and conflict in Three Houses and was probably always set up to be an antagonist from the very start ("The Edge of Dawn" in EN is the "Maiden of Hresvelg" in JP). The characters of each house were also likely developed around the same time.

However, for routes....

1. Blue Lions was the first conceived route. (Part One ties heavily with the BL students and Edelgard serves as a good antagonist for Dimitri.)
2. Golden Deer was created second to answer the lingering questions of the Blue Lions (mainly the lore and background stuff).

3. Black Eagles were likely done later in development despite being planned. Now being low on time, I believe Edelgard's route was prioritized to make a great experience, even if it ended up being shorter than the others. This was done to offer a different perspective and to let players side with Edelgard instead of having to deal with the "tragedy of fighting against Edelgard." Evidence for this are the lack of cutscenes for Black Eagles and the shorter chapter count.

Now, the Church route was super rushed. Remember that Edelgard was around from the start, so having the player fight against her has always been planned and that is why there are cutscenes regarding this. (Why there is a cutscene for GD though I have no idea.) However, the route itself offers little to what was already explained in the Golden Deer, save for some unique revelations that only happen at the very end of this path. // One could say story wise it is literally the middle of BL and GD, having to fight Edelgard while exploring the truth about Byleth. While the aspect of fighting Edelgard may vary (as this is personal with the Avatar instead of being Dimitri's fight), finding answers about the world of Fodlan was apparently done better in the GD route.

Now while I know some battles and concepts are shared between BL and GD post timeskip (they diverge after the Gronder Field rematch), the Church route just follows the GD formula. Sure, it cuts out the Gronder Field rematch and tosses in its own unique finale, but the progression is identical to the GD. I'm not sure what the story justifications are for the Church Route, but I suppose they were not enough as the Church Route feels like an inferior GD route.

- - - - -

If there was more development time, I'm sure Edelgard's Crimson Flower path would have been fleshed out more and the Church Route would have been more unique instead of just copying the Golden Deer. However, with the time they had, I want to say the Black Eagles (specifically the Church Route) got the short end of the stick.

I think I remember an interview saying that Three Houses sorta became a much bigger project than was originally anticipated. So, I believe there was definitely a vision in place, but due to time constraints, we got the game we have now. The game is great and is one of the best FE games made, but it still has its own flaws.

A part of me wonders if they will tinker with the main routes via "free updates" to the game, but I doubt this will happen. I think all DLC will be about the brand new stuff instead of trying to "fix/polish" what was already put out there.

[CyberNinja]

7 hours ago, Sire said:

Gonna toss out my theory on route development, and I have posted this elsewhere a couple of times. (I personally have finished all routes but the Church Route, which I'm still on Part One on.)

* * * * *

Yes, Edelgard was likely designed first. She is the primary force of change and conflict in Three Houses and was probably always set up to be an antagonist from the very start ("The Edge of Dawn" in EN is the "Maiden of Hresvelg" in JP). The characters of each house were also likely developed around the same time.

However, for routes....

1. Blue Lions was the first conceived route. (Part One ties heavily with the BL students and Edelgard serves as a good antagonist for Dimitri.)
2. Golden Deer was created second to answer the lingering questions of the Blue Lions (mainly the lore and background stuff).

3. Black Eagles were likely done later in development despite being planned. Now being low on time, I believe Edelgard's route was prioritized to make a great experience, even if it ended up being shorter than the others. This was done to offer a different perspective and to let players side with Edelgard instead of having to deal with the "tragedy of fighting against Edelgard." Evidence for this are the lack of cutscenes for Black Eagles and the shorter chapter count.

Now, the Church route was super rushed. Remember that Edelgard was around from the start, so having the player fight against her has always been planned and that is why there are cutscenes regarding this. (Why there is a cutscene for GD though I have no idea.) However, the route itself offers little to what was already explained in the Golden Deer, save for some unique revelations that only happen at the very end of this path. // One could say story wise it is literally the middle of BL and GD, having to fight Edelgard while exploring the truth about Byleth. While the aspect of fighting Edelgard may vary (as this is personal with the Avatar instead of being Dimitri's fight), finding answers about the world of Fodlan was apparently done better in the GD route.

Now while I know some battles and concepts are shared between BL and GD post timeskip (they diverge after the Gronder Field rematch), the Church route just follows the GD formula. Sure, it cuts out the Gronder Field rematch and tosses in its own unique finale, but the progression is identical to the GD. I'm not sure what the story justifications are for the Church Route, but I suppose they were not enough as the Church Route feels like an inferior GD route.

- - - - -

If there was more development time, I'm sure Edelgard's Crimson Flower path would have been fleshed out more and the Church Route would have been more unique instead of just copying the Golden Deer. However, with the time they had, I want to say the Black Eagles (specifically the Church Route) got the short end of the stick.

I think I remember an interview saying that Three Houses sorta became a much bigger project than was originally anticipated. So, I believe there was definitely a vision in place, but due to time constraints, we got the game we have now. The game is great and is one of the best FE games made, but it still has its own flaws.

A part of me wonders if they will tinker with the main routes via "free updates" to the game, but I doubt this will happen. I think all DLC will be about the brand new stuff instead of trying to "fix/polish" what was already put out there.

Ok but the only cutscenes unique to Golden Deer and made with Golden Deer Assets are Claude meeting Nardel/Nader and Claude and Byleth fighting Nemesis, the rest all center on Byleth, use church route assets, rely on church route story beats, and claude is conspicuously absent.

Its pretty clear all together that the Church route was the original Black Eagles route, Azure Moon was created next, then golden deer was developed with the rest of the time made to rush out Crimson flower.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, CyberNinja said:

Its pretty clear all together that the Church route was the original Black Eagles route, Azure Moon was created next, then golden deer was developed with the rest of the time made to rush out Crimson flower.

I strongly disagree with the notion that Crimson Flower was rushed out. If you assume as you do that the church route was created first (I'm a bit skeptical; I think it was possibly conceived first but there's a lot of evidence that the plotting for VW was made before the plotting of SS), then of the three routes made after it, Crimson Flower is the one with the most unique maps.

Since I assume SS was mostly made after VW (again, the plot just seems to fit VW way better), then to me it's pretty obvious SS is the laziest route. It has very little unique content (story or gameplay) and what unique story content it has seems to be poorly thought out, like how Seteth is relatively more prominent on the route and yet the game still doesn't bother to go into his backstory. To say nothing of how its final boss comes out of nowhere.

[CyberNinja]

19 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To say nothing of how its final boss comes out of nowhere.

What you mean like Nemesis appearing suddenly?

20 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm a bit skeptical; I think it was possibly conceived first but there's a lot of evidence that the plotting for VW was made before the plotting of SS

Ok, I'll bite, what is the evidence?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Nemesis comes out of nowhere too, I ain't defending that.

-In Verdant Winds, Chapter 15 is all about getting support from Judith, which makes sense since she's Claude's close ally within the Alliance. In Silver Snow you still get troops from her for... some reason?

-In Verdant Winds Chapter 16, you have to move through Gloucester territory to reach the Bridge of Myrddin, and the plot acknowledges the difficulty of this by having Claude use Nader to cause a distraction to draw Gloucester's troops away to avoid having to fight them. In SS this important setting point is glossed over.

-In Verdant Winds Chapter 19, Almyra is involved in order to complete the capture of a difficult objective. In SS you capture it anyway with seemingly less effort.

-And finally, in the lategame of Verdant Winds, a united Fodlan is able to coalesce because you've beaten the Empire, the Kingdom has imploded, and the Alliance was always behind you/Claude. In the lategame of SS, the Alliance and Claude feel entirely forgotten. I don't think it even mentions what happens to him after he's injured at Gronder? But they're expected to roll into Byleth's Untied Fodlan anyway.

Basically from moment to moment, the individual chapters of VW/SS feel written with the Alliance political situation in mind, and removing the Alliance from them causes some holes.

[CyberNinja]

17 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

-In Verdant Winds, Chapter 15 is all about getting support from Judith, which makes sense since she's Claude's close ally within the Alliance. In Silver Snow you still get troops from her for... some reason?

Alternatively Claude controls half the alliance he should have troops regardless, Blue Lions and Silver Snow are the only routes this plotline makes sense because they're the only one's where you're a small band of murderhobos for most of the game instead of an actual nation.

19 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

-In Verdant Winds Chapter 19, Almyra is involved in order to complete the capture of a difficult objective. In SS you capture it anyway with seemingly less effort.

 

Blue Lions also take it without Nader, is Azure Moon a rip off of Verdant Wind too? Of course not, the fact remains that the cutscene for the "pillars of Light" uses the assets for Silver Snow, that means they had to have had that cutscene made already by the time Verdant wind was created. If they weren't made side by side, Verdant wind most likely came after.

22 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

-And finally, in the lategame of Verdant Winds, a united Fodlan is able to coalesce because you've beaten the Empire, the Kingdom has imploded, and the Alliance was always behind you/Claude. In the lategame of SS, the Alliance and Claude feel entirely forgotten. I don't think it even mentions what happens to him after he's injured at Gronder?

Its implied he died or went back to Almyra after his army disintegrated, everyone not recruited in Silver Snow is dead. At the end of Silver snow you're the sole authority left in the realm since most of the leadership in the Alliance, the Kingdom, and even the Empire was killed. That you're the head religious figure and have the other two factions under your wing leaves it as inevitable for the alliance to fall in line. Possibly under orders left by Claude, since he forces the alliance to join the victors in every single route.

I'm not saying whether or not Verdant wind ended up a better route, only that most of the content was originally made in Silver Snow, having done silver snow last, even I can see it clear as day.

As for Crimson Flower, it has the Tailtean plains and an Azure moon map with all the tiles replaced with flame tiles. Arianrhode is also in Azure Moon as Dimitri's paralogue. So it has one truly unique map and four (four!) less maps than any other route. It has one unique cutscene to its name and its the ending one, it even lacks a cutscene that all other routes get, giving us the fade to black. Edelgard's paralogue is literally hildas and probably the main/only reason she isn't recruitable for that route. The Wait/hub area for the siege of Gareg Mach is literally a flat plan with walls on all sides and a cart in the center. Are we really doing this?

[Moltz23]

I have a lot of issues believing Crimson Flower wasn't the last route developed when it's missing essential stuff like a proper timeskip cutscene (I still have no idea what's Rhea supposed to do to Byleth to make them go MIA), has less chapters and unique paralogues compared to the other core routes and some plot points/scenarios are solved far too quickly. As it stands, the route walks in a fine line between having ton of effort put into it and having none at all, which is why I'm somewhat hesitant to suggest the Black Eagles as a starting point since the lack of production values and content can be a huge turn-off for many.

3 hours ago, CyberNinja said:

The Wait/hub area for the siege of Gareg Mach is literally a flat plan with walls on all sides and a cart in the center.

The fun part about that area is that all of the services it provides are already available on the battle preparation screen, meaning the whole reason it exist in the first place is for purely flavor purposes.