What to do with the Blue Lions, Day 2: Ashe or Flayn

[Naoko_Akamori]

Oh boy, Ashe. Of all of the Lions, he's the one I've considered subbing out the most, just because there's really not a lot to him that couldn't be done better by someone else. Heck, as you'll see later on, Felix is kind of taking the Archer spot away from him. 

If I were going to use him, my plan is to run him as a Wyvern Lord for the sake of maximizing his Locktouch ability. He has a strength in Axes, which is nice, and it also pumps up his Strength growth to something resembling acceptable. 

It'd be something like: Axes 5/Deathblow/Alert+/Axe Crit +10/Weight -3? 

Alternatively, and we're making this a double feature of sorts here, I drop Ashe entirely for Flayn once I get her, and make her the squad's Dancer. She'd have something that looks like this...

Special Dance/Movement +1/???/???/???

[Garlyle]

3 minutes ago, Naoko_Akamori said:

Alternatively, and we're making this a double feature of sorts here, I drop Ashe entirely for Flayn once I get her, and make her the squad's Dancer. She'd have something that looks like this...

I like this, it's practically turning Ashe into the 3H version of Lara from Thracia - opening locks or just dancing. Flayn can become a pretty good Holy Knight after her training montage, thanks to Fortify, Rescue, Magic Range +1 equip and tanky Res.

I'm not really sure what I'd make from Ashe though, so Dancer sounds reasonable for me.

[Gregster101]

I'd recommend having Ashe as Wyvern Rider that way the Blue Lions can have a second flier besides Ingrid

[Shadow Mir]

28 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

Flayn can become a pretty good Holy Knight after her training montage, thanks to Fortify, Rescue, Magic Range +1 equip and tanky Res.

What about that Riding weakness, though...?

In any instance, I agree that Ashe has very little going for him. His personal doesn't really help much since keys are cheap, and you can access the marketplace from the prep screen.

[ApocaLips]

Is it a given that you are using these units? IMO both of these units kinda suck and should be replaced if possible. Mercedes is all around much better than Flayn (I don’t find rescue to be anywhere near as good as it was in fe15 due to decreased range). For Ashe, almost any decent physical unit will do better at whatever it is you were trying to do with him. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by ApocaLips

[Naoko_Akamori]

3 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

Is it a given that you are using these units? IMO both of these units kinda suck and should be replaced if possible. Mercedes is all around much better than Flayn (I don’t find rescue to be anywhere near as good as it was in fe15 due to decreased range). For Ashe, almost any decent physical unit will do better at whatever it is you were trying to do with him. 

My current guaranteed roster is Byleth, Dmitri, Dedue, Felix, Sylvain, Mercedes, Lysithea, Annette, and Ingrid. Mercedes was meant to be my healer, so if I were to bring Flayn she'd just be a Dancer. Basically, whoever I fill that last slot with is essentially going to be my Dancer because everyone else has better things to do. 

Byleth can't do it, Dmitri's going to be a Great Lord, Dedue's going to be a Fortress Knight/Warmaster, Felix is going to be a Bow Knight, Sylvain's going to be a Wyvern Lord, Mercedes is going to be a Bishop with Movement +1, Lysithea is going to be a Dark Knight, Annette is going to be either a Gremory or some sort of Bolt Axe wielding Wyvern... thing, and Ingrid is going to be another Wyvern Lord. 

[Gregster101]

5 minutes ago, Naoko_Akamori said:

My current guaranteed roster is Byleth, Dmitri, Dedue, Felix, Sylvain, Mercedes, Lysithea, Annette, and Ingrid. Mercedes was meant to be my healer, so if I were to bring Flayn she'd just be a Dancer. Basically, whoever I fill that last slot with is essentially going to be my Dancer because everyone else has better things to do. 

Byleth can't do it, Dmitri's going to be a Great Lord, Dedue's going to be a Fortress Knight/Warmaster, Felix is going to be a Bow Knight, Sylvain's going to be a Wyvern Lord, Mercedes is going to be a Bishop with Movement +1, Lysithea is going to be a Dark Knight, Annette is going to be either a Gremory or some sort of Bolt Axe wielding Wyvern... thing, and Ingrid is going to be another Wyvern Lord. 

Then just do a Wyvern Lord army. Wyvern Lords are super busted in this game that you can't go wrong with having too many of them.

[Naoko_Akamori]

2 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

Then just do a Wyvern Lord army. Wyvern Lords are super busted in this game that you can't go wrong with having too many of them.

Honestly, I'd really rather not. I'd considered not doing it for Sylvain, but Great Knight is such a garbage promotion. It also really limits your options in terms of what Battalions you can take. No thanks. 

[Jakkun]

19 minutes ago, Naoko_Akamori said:

Honestly, I'd really rather not. I'd considered not doing it for Sylvain, but Great Knight is such a garbage promotion. It also really limits your options in terms of what Battalions you can take. No thanks. 

You can get by with just going Brigand > Paladin for Sylvain if you want to keep him on a horse. Especially after he learns Swift Strikes, abusing that with Death Blow and Lancefaire is really good. Granted, there's nothing saying Wyvern Lord can't use SS, you just won't have Lancefaire for maximizing damage.

Ashe could be perfectly fine as a Bow Knight. If you need a second Wyvern there's always Cyril (yes he exists) and Seteth, despite his lateness. I'm still of the mind that Flayn makes your best dancer candidate here since all she has to seperate her from Mercedes is Rescue, which doesn't have good range and she lacks Riding proficiency for movement. At the same time, Ashe could make a worthy dancer if you don't want to field Flayn at all, that way he can put that Riding proficiency to use for Move +1.

[FoxyGrandpa]

Funnily enough, I kept Ashe a Sniper on my first run of the game since I didn't level up his skill in riding and he ended up carrying me in the last two chapters. That's more a testament of how good hunters volley is rather than Ashe himself, however.

Dancer doesn't seem like a bad class for him since he  he can also steal, but his lack of proficiency in healing does make it a bit of a turn-off for me. 

[Reality]

I liked Ashe when I played BL but dropped him entirely for Shamir when Part 2 started.  He just feels kind of bad as a Bow Knight  or Bow Wyvern Lord  once stats  start climbing.

If I do the route again I might think about making Ashe the dancer to keep him in the game. 

I also feel like Flayn is overated, but especially for Blue Lions, since Mercedes staff range is so high, and most chapters will be over in 4 fortifys, going to 6  by doubling up with dancer flayn is never going to see use.  I kind of hate non-dancer Flayn's terrible movement and I only used rescue in a couple paralogues. I don't see it nearly as awesome as warp or even reposition tbh. 

[wissenschaft]

The two decent builds for Ashe both start with Brigand for death blow to help patch up his STR. You can then work on getting him into Sniper and he'll make a decent archer at that point (you can use bows while a Brigand to work on his bow rank). Alternatively you can make him a Wyvern Rider for a flying lockpick but he has low defenses so he won't be the best Wyvern Lord.

Ashe makes for a decent archer with Death Blow so its not a bad idea. Just don't level in the archer class since most archers wants a class with improved STR growth.

Edited September 3, 2019 by wissenschaft

[Jakkun]

18 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Ashe makes for a decent archer with Death Blow so its not a bad idea. Just don't level in the archer class since most archers wants a class with improved STR growth.

Come to think of it, is Hit +20 from Archer class even that useful on potential Bow Knights? Death Blow just seems more universally useful, and Bow Prowess already provides a good amount of Hit.

Pretty much unless the archer in question has a weakness in axes, its always better to go Brigand for their Intermediate, right?

[wissenschaft]

That +20 HIT is very useful on bow knights since they get the longest range. However, long range shots are still very inaccurate. Its often best to attack from at least 3 range to maximize your accuracy while still outranging your opponent. And if you just going to attack at 3 range then skipping archer is find because that class' growths are HORRIBLE. The low STR archer characters in this game want Brigand to patch up their shaky STR growth.

So yes, archers should always go Brigand as their intermediate.

Edited September 3, 2019 by wissenschaft

[ApocaLips]

11 minutes ago, Jakkun said:

Come to think of it, is Hit +20 from Archer class even that useful on potential Bow Knights? Death Blow just seems more universally useful, and Bow Prowess already provides a good amount of Hit.

Pretty much unless the archer in question has a weakness in axes, its always better to go Brigand for their Intermediate, right?

I’d do it even with an axe weakness. You only need D+ to have a decent shot at promotion to brigand. Also, the only character I can think of in this boat is Bernadetta, and she really needs the help for damage. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by ApocaLips

[wissenschaft]

1 minute ago, ApocaLips said:

I’d do it even with an axe weakness. You only need D+ to have a decent shot at promotion to brigand. Also, the only character I can think of in this boat is Bernadetta, and she really needs the help for damage. 

Heck, even Petra whats to level in Brigand first even if you plan to make her an assassin. Death blow is THAT awesome.

[Naoko_Akamori]

So, my main issue with Ashe right now isn't so much "What do I do with him?" it's "Is there space in my party for him?" I posted my roster of 'mandatory picks' already, but, again...

1-2. Byleth and Dmitri: No way around this (Swords/Faith & Lances)

3. Dedue (Axes, Gauntlets)

4. Felix (Bows)

5. Sylvain (Axes, Lances)

6. Lysithea (Reason)

7. Mercedes (Healing)

I've got three slots left to fill, and I feel like one of those needs to be a Dancer, while the other two are kind of up in the air. Ashe CAN fill one of those, but I want Annette and Ingrid as well. People have already heavily suggested not making Annette my Dancer, so it's going to have to be Ashe or Ingrid, unless I sub Ashe out for someone else. He's the most replaceable, because I haven't planned for him to have a paired ending with anyone. 

So, I guess the question now is... who makes a good Dancer and a good Ashe replacement? 

[wissenschaft]

Oh, if your using Felix as an archer then theres little need for Ashe.

As for Dancers, Marianne is likely the best dancer in the game. Her relic sword dealing magic damage, her ability to heal or dance. Shes a fantastic dancer. I think shes a better dancer than Annette but then I think shes the best dancer in the game.

I think people suggest Annette just because they are thinking of who to pick from within the blue lions house. But Marianne is the better option.

Edited September 3, 2019 by wissenschaft

[Naoko_Akamori]

1 minute ago, wissenschaft said:

Oh, if your using Felix as an archer then theres little need for Ashe.

As for Dancers, Marianne is likely the best dancer in the game. Her relic sword dealing magic damage, her ability to heal or dance. Shes a fantastic dancer. I think shes a better dancer than Annette but then I think shes the best dancer in the game.

I think people suggest Annette just because they are thinking of who to pick from within the blue lions house. But Marianne is the better option.

Alright! And I was going to grab Marianne anyway, so that's a good idea. She gets Physic, too. 

 

[Kiran_]

1 hour ago, wissenschaft said:

Heck, even Petra whats to level in Brigand first even if you plan to make her an assassin. Death blow is THAT awesome.

I agree. Heck, I gave everyone that wasn't a magic user Death Blow (and the magic users got Fiendish Blow). Ashe with Hit+20/Vantage/Death Blow and he was pretty good in my BL playthrough. I don't think he was bad as a Bow Knight (he was my only one), but I'd definitely note that Cyril replaced him as my main bow unit on maps. I still always used Ashe (cinnamon roll), but if I needed someone on the front lines it was Cyril.

I actually didn't use a dancer in my BL playthrough and I was more than fine, but Dorothea is making a pretty fantastic dancer in my GD playthrough, but I can definitely see why Marianne is a good dancer. But I don't think your team *needs* to consist of a dancer if you don't want, it's definitely not make or break in this game.

[Naoko_Akamori]

2 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

I agree. Heck, I gave everyone that wasn't a magic user Death Blow (and the magic users got Fiendish Blow). Ashe with Hit+20/Vantage/Death Blow and he was pretty good in my BL playthrough. I don't think he was bad as a Bow Knight (he was my only one), but I'd definitely note that Cyril replaced him as my main bow unit on maps. I still always used Ashe (cinnamon roll), but if I needed someone on the front lines it was Cyril.

I actually didn't use a dancer in my BL playthrough and I was more than fine, but Dorothea is making a pretty fantastic dancer in my GD playthrough, but I can definitely see why Marianne is a good dancer. But I don't think your team *needs* to consist of a dancer if you don't want, it's definitely not make or break in this game.

I guess that's true, and there IS a Dancer Battalion that refreshes multiple units at once. So that's always an option. 

I will probably pick up Marianne for that job, I do plan on getting most, if not all, of the other students anyway. Canon playthrough and all. 

[kremelover]

On 9/3/2019 at 7:16 PM, wissenschaft said:

Oh, if your using Felix as an archer then theres little need for Ashe.

As for Dancers, Marianne is likely the best dancer in the game. Her relic sword dealing magic damage, her ability to heal or dance. Shes a fantastic dancer. I think shes a better dancer than Annette but then I think shes the best dancer in the game.

I think people suggest Annette just because they are thinking of who to pick from within the blue lions house. But Marianne is the better option.

Dimitri and Ferdinand could be really good dancers with higher avoid than Marianne.

[wissenschaft]

9 minutes ago, kremelover said:

Dimitri and Ferdinand could be really good dancers with higher avoid than Marianne.

They both have better classes which will make them far stronger. On the other hand, Marianne as dancer is about as good as her being a gremory or dark knight.

Edited September 6, 2019 by wissenschaft