Good reasons for recruiting units from other classes

[timon]

1 hour ago, Life said:

I'm going to make the argument for Ashe to be recruited no matter what. Let's go step by step.

Recruitment: B Support or 15 Charm and C Lance. On my first run, I never recruited anyone by way of B Support but C Lances is a prerequisite for Wyvern Lord!Byleth which means that training Lance rank actually doesn't go to waste. And since Leonie is the other recruit who requires C Lances, this is probably the one weapon rank that gives you the most bang for your buck in recruits, especially if you are playing BE (the other is Faith for Annette and Lysithea but Lysithea is an auto-recruit regardless). 15 Charm is an easy breakpoint with starting points of 7/45 for Byleth (50 growth rate at level 5).

I cannot see a negative to pushing immediately for an Ashe recruit and it also secures Leonie.

Lockpick: I don't think that this should be underestimated. First off, this skill saves you 300G per use and that money adds up over time. In addition, I never have to run a Thief or Assassin ever and that lets me make everyone (including my thief) into Deathblow wielding juggernauts. And lastly, I don't have to do convey shenanigans in map if I want to pick up multiple chests. That, just by itself, saves turns because Ashe can just race for the chests without caring that he doesn't have chest keys on himself.

Proficiencies: Hidden talent in Lances, up in Axes and Bows, down in Reason. Wyvern Rider only needs a C in Flying but it needs a B in Axes. Great, Ashe is now budget Claude by being naturally good at bows but also having help in 2 out of the three skills needed for Wyvern Rider.

Stats and Classes: Ashe's one major flaw is durability. 35/20 HP/Def are bad growth rates. However, his offensive power is perfect for what you need (a fast, airborne, reliable delete button on the way to chests) and those great proficiences help him out with good classes until Wyverns are available at Level 20. Brigand is Deathblow and Archer is Hit +20 (a shockingly good skill thanks to the RN in this game) while helping Ashe get to Close Counter quickly. During his Brigand years, Ashe is now working with 65 HP growth (no Def change) but he also now has 45/55/50 Str, Dex and Spd growths. That's incredibly good on a unit whose personal skill is entirely utility based and gains no additional damage bonuses. Ashe will not miss, he'll reliably double everything even with Axes and have more than enough Atk to eliminate everything in one round (or at least he does this on Hard Mode from very early on).

Outside of the Lords and probably Felix, who has offense this reliable in all three categories in the BL? Ingrid has Str issues because she went Peg Knight and stayed at 35 Str growth (along with no talent in Axes). Sylvain is looking down the barrel of 60 Hit on enemies. Annette can only survive one round of combat. Dedue is unrecruitable. Ashe's only weakness is his defense and he covers for it with Flying Canto and good enough growths.

Others: 5 Range Combat Arte on a 7 Move Unit who excels at Accuracy sounds really good. Yeah, Ashe also gets Deadeye. Focused Strike is +30 Hit for 3 uses so that might also be useful.

 

All in all, Ashe is the perfect thief who accidentially also became an offensive monster when nobody was looking. This is a "what if Matthew actually had reliable respectable offense" moment. I really cannot think of any student (especially from the BL including Felix who only brings offense to the table) that adds so much value to your team in so many different ways.

 

tl;dr Ashe for High Tier (not broken, just a really solid unit no matter what).

I think, like with many people's opinion of Ingird, this might be bias because you got blessed. Those 2 share a big power problem, wyvern is not enough to patch it up (maybe it helps, but there are other units who benefit much more from it). Obviously 35 starting growth means you're going to get a good one from time to time, but on average those 2 people just don't do damage. Ingrid can kind of solve the issue with Luìn (but it's limited), Ashe can compensate with very good range, but I still wouldn't put them above "good tier" (let's say a B, good units but not the A core, and surely not S).

I get the niche of Deadeye on Wyvern, I appreciate it myself, and lockpick is nice. I'd argue the Defense problem is not necessarily that big since with that range you just can abuse Canto, the big problem is the Str. Also as a side note his hidden talent has to be the worst one in the game bar Dorothea's.

Also, and it pains me to say this because I hate the character, but I think Bernadetta makes for a better flyer if you're looking to abuse Deadeye. She has the same power issues, but she's absurdly fast and can go into a broken and flying class early (Pegasus).

Even then, if we're not looking at Deadeye (which is a good plus, but not THAT good, Bow Knights basically have that same range without needing an art AND with bowfaire) if you want a flying archer (aside from Claude) Leonie and Petra are miles better than either Bernie or Ashe.

[Life]

40 minutes ago, timon said:

I think, like with many people's opinion of Ingird, this might be bias because you got blessed. Those 2 share a big power problem, wyvern is not enough to patch it up (maybe it helps, but there are other units who benefit much more from it). Obviously 35 starting growth means you're going to get a good one from time to time, but on average those 2 people just don't do damage. Ingrid can kind of solve the issue with Luìn (but it's limited), Ashe can compensate with very good range, but I still wouldn't put them above "good tier" (let's say a B, good units but not the A core, and surely not S).

I get the niche of Deadeye on Wyvern, I appreciate it myself, and lockpick is nice. I'd argue the Defense problem is not necessarily that big since with that range you just can abuse Canto, the big problem is the Str. Also as a side note his hidden talent has to be the worst one in the game bar Dorothea's.

Also, and it pains me to say this because I hate the character, but I think Bernadetta makes for a better flyer if you're looking to abuse Deadeye. She has the same power issues, but she's absurdly fast and can go into a broken and flying class early (Pegasus).

Even then, if we're not looking at Deadeye (which is a good plus, but not THAT good, Bow Knights basically have that same range without needing an art AND with bowfaire) if you want a flying archer (aside from Claude) Leonie and Petra are miles better than either Bernie or Ashe.

Sure, my Ashe is really great right now but run the numbers.

The argument for Leonie is that she is a statistical god with solid proficiencies. That is Ashe in a nutshell but he trades some bulk for sheer utility. Count up the numbers of doors and chests that exist in Part 1 alone and suddenly a free Thief that has offense and an incoming wyvern is far more useful than more durability.

If Ashe can save you a total of 10 keys in Part 1, thats two full Relic repairs of money. You can spam earlygame relics. How does spammable Freikugal sound?

Nobody else can do that without reclassing to Thief or Assassin.

 

Edit: Regarding his hidden talent, that's in lances. The ability is crap but it does now give him a route to C Lances (for Wyvern Lord promotion) thanks to +2 after unlocking it.

As long as Ashe focuses on Flying from when you recruit him, Ashe is budget Claude with far more utility. I don't think that this can be understated.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Life

[timon]

4 minutes ago, Life said:

Sure, my Ashe is really great right now but run the numbers.

The argument for Leonie is that she is a statistical god with solid proficiencies. That is Ashe in a nutshell but he trades some bulk for sheer utility. Count up the numbers of doors and chests that exist in Part 1 alone and suddenly a free Thief that has offense and an incoming wyvern is far more useful than more durability.

If Ashe can save you a total of 10 keys in Part 1, thats two full Relic repairs of money. You can spam earlygame relics. How does spammable Freikugal sound?

Nobody else can do that without reclassing to Thief or Assassin.

The thing is, he's not a statistical god, far from it. He probably has some of the worst growths in the game for a physical unit.

Leonie surpasses him in HP, Str, Spd, Def and Cha. The only thing Ashe has more of is Res (and Mag, that's not relevant). Hell, even Ignatz has better growths!

The relics argument doesn't hold up when you consider that the problem with relics is never ever gold (which stops being a problem a lot sooner than your first broken relic) but materials. Spammable Freikugel sounds amazing, sadly Ashe can't give me Umbral Steel.

Spending something on keys is not that bad, especially because usually there are enough keys on enemies for all the chests. As I said, I too appreciate lockpick, but it's just a nice thing to have, not a must at all.

PS: now that I think about it, "probably" might be an understatement, I can't think of a single worse physical unit (among students) in terms of growths (Bernadetta and Ignatz are there with him).

[Chaotix]

Lockpick is really not that great. Money is basically only a problem in the early game. In the early game most doors and chests come with enemies carrying keys right next to them. And in the late game, maps that have multiple chests tend to have them arranged in such a way that it would be very slow to send a single character after all of them. And Ashe's free lockpick comes as the cost of him having a combat personal skill or crest - things which Bernadetta and Ignatz have.

I used Ashe in BL, he wound up with above-average strength and was useful as a Bow Knight. Give him a Killer Bow and he can crit-kill Bolting mages from 5+ tiles away with Deadeye. But his personal skill slowed me down on some maps because I decided to rely on it alone rather than just buy a chest key or two. Were I to use him again, his personal skill would have no bearing on that decision. 

[ApocaLips]

I’m surprised to see people talking up Ashe across multiple threads. His growths are mostly the same as Bernadetta’s, who is a unit many find practically unusable. 35 str is about as bad as it gets.

His personal is not really that useful. You can buy chest keys at the prep screen in this game in every chapter except for chapter 13. And for that chapter, he will either automatically deploy or automatically not deploy depending on your route, so it’s not like there’s much of an option there. And for most chapters with chests, you usually need to split your team up to be efficient, so you’re going to load up your team with keys regardless.

The comparisons between WL Ashe and Claude are pretty weird. I feel like I’m stating the obvious here, but since it doesn’t seem to be acknowledged, Claude’s unique class has bowfaire, giving him a big edge in damage over WL Ashe even before factoring Claude’s superior str growth. Also, Claude doesn’t have to qualify for his class and has numerous other advantages, eg inherent pass, a decently useful crest, etc. 

On BE Edelgard, I recruit him for his paralogue (+1 move consumable) and that’s it. Otherwise, bench and forget. Felix is a much better bowknight on BL, and plenty of other units are better WLs. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by ApocaLips

[Chaotix]

31 minutes ago, ApocaLips said:

On BE Edelgard, I recruit him for his paralogue (+1 move consumable) and that’s it. Otherwise, bench and forget. Felix is a much better bowknight on BL, and plenty of other units are better WLs. 

Hold on, possibly off-topic but have to ask - does Ashe have a different Paralogue in Crimson Flower?

The one I'm familiar with is pre-timeskip and also requires Catherine (therefore unavailable for Crimson Flower route) 

[ApocaLips]

3 minutes ago, Chaotix said:

Hold on, possibly off-topic but have to ask - does Ashe have a different Paralogue in Crimson Flower?

The one I'm familiar with is pre-timeskip and also requires Catherine (therefore unavailable for Crimson Flower route) 

I haven’t finished my Edelgard run, but it’s pre-timeskip, so I assumed you only need one of the two. Is this paralogue an exception?

[Chaotix]

1 minute ago, ApocaLips said:

I haven’t finished my Edelgard run, but it’s pre-timeskip, so I assumed you only need one of the two. Is this paralogue an exception?

You might be right actually, I haven't tested it myself. Not sure why I thought you'd need both, disregard my question.

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, ApocaLips said:

I haven’t finished my Edelgard run, but it’s pre-timeskip, so I assumed you only need one of the two. Is this paralogue an exception?

Can confirm.
... er, that it isn't an exception. Simply having Ashe unlocks it, but you miss out on the battalion tied to Catherine... assuming there is one worth anything to begin with.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Cysx

[Gregster101]

I feel like I'm the only one here who actually likes Ashe X(

[ZeManaphy]

On a technical sense, recruiting students creates a generic soldier to take their place, and that soldier is weaker is because they lack crests, personal weapons, and personal skills. Even if you don’t plan to use them, it might worth recruiting them for the sake of those weaker enemies of you can. 

On another note, if you kill the Death Knight with Caspar on the paralouge, you get the DK’s personal weapon, the Scythe of Sariel, which is the only way of getting it.

[Dandy Druid]

12 hours ago, Garlyle said:

I updated the first post, given some reasons for Linhardt, Caspar, Ferdinand, Bernadetta, Ignatz and Felix - some might not be the best reasons, but it's a good start.

@Dandy Druid Does Hilda remain strong on offense in Lunatic? I can see some issue coming up with her accuracy. I do like her, but the only thing I see from her is being a Freikugel wielding Wyvern Lord.

I think to get all the rewards from Dorothea + Ingrid paralogue, you need to have both of them on your team. Ingrid gets the Lúin lance, and Dorothea gets the Goddess Ring I believe. I'm trying to use Dorothea more, but the best offense she offers for me is Thoron so far.

I'm not sure since I haven't played Lunatic. But I can imagine her accuracy being a problem. She will definitely need the Accuracy ring. She will have to be a Flying Freikugel in that mode, I'm guessing. She's not a "must-have" as much as other characters are, but a Flying Freikugel is pretty great. Hilda is pretty good at any physical based class though. 

[Eltoshen]

On 9/3/2019 at 10:33 PM, ApocaLips said:

His shield also makes him exceptionally durable. I don’t think anyone has cracked the numbers, but in my experience it has about a 50% chance to proc on any attack and halves damage, on top of what I think is the highest stat total of any shield (6 def 3 res). The weight isn’t hard to offset with weight skills and his high str. Don’t need a second character to trigger the paralogue, and it’s available somewhat into part 1.

Great unit. Also pretty easy to recruit for any Byleth running swords. 

His shield does seem to proc quite often. Wonder if it has anything to do with his major Crest or if I'm just experiencing confirmation bias.

[eclipse]

Regarding Ashe, he's not going to be the offensive god that Felix is.  Deathblow is damn nice in conjunction with Deadeye, though.

BE Empire spoilers:

Spoiler

It's fairly trivial to get both chests on Dimitri's chapter if Ashe is a promoted flying unit.  Did that, and used the loot on everyone between Ashe and everyone else.

While the free lockpick isn't the world's best thing, it means less thinking about inventory management.  Since my guys are almost always full-up on weapons, it helps a lot.  And it's a bad day when my Ashe somehow wound up doing better combat-wise than Leonie (I'm guessing Leonie got badly screwed, because this shouldn't happen).

[Life]

So I recruited 4 on my first playthrough (BL): Dorthea, Hilda, Caspar and Ignatz.

Dorthea went Dancer and out of the other three, Ignatz is actually the most salvagable thanks to B Bow and B Sword as a Chapter 11 recruit. He doesn't need Hit +20 from Archer so he can get Deathblow while pushing for A Bow and Sniper.

 

Both Caspar and Hilda are both liabilities but Hilda does at least have Freikugal to kill something that looks at her funny. She just doesn't survive the enemy phase. Caspar is simply bad but that might be because he never got fielded and the rest of my army are gods.

[AwakeningFates]

On 9/5/2019 at 5:46 AM, Gregster101 said:

I feel like I'm the only one here who actually likes Ashe X(

Don't worry, I like Ashe, too. He was one of my frontline units as a bow knight and was critting almost every time. 

[Altrosa]

On 9/4/2019 at 1:15 AM, Dandy Druid said:

I forgot to mention you may want to recruit characters that share a paralogue with a character from another house. Cross-house paralogues are:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ingrid & Dorothea (but Dorothea does NOT need to be recruited. But you should anyways because Dorothea was a wonderfully written character.) NOTE: this is the only cross-house paralogue before the timeskip. So for the others, you HAVE to recruit them in order to activate it.

Ferdinand & Lysithea

Caspar & Mercedes

Linhardt & Leonie

 

Oh bless you. I was searching for this exact info.