20 Changes I would have made to Shadows of Valentia

[Jotari]

I love Shadows of Valentia, as I also love Gaiden. Prerelease I was worried they wouldn't be faithful to Gaiden due to how weird it is, but I'm happy they were. However, I think they were a little too faithful. I'm of the opinion that a remake should never be the original game with an extra coat of paint (even if going from NES to 3DS requires a hell of a lot of paint). You need to add or change something so it's a fundamentally different experience. So here's a list of changes I would also have implemented to spice things up.

1. Make it so Alm and priestesses aren't the only mono weapon users. Give me Sword wielding paladins and axe wielding barons etc. This solves the plot hole (or more suspension of disbelief) of how Rudolf managed to use Falchion even though he can only use lances in game.

2. On that note, axe users, real playable axe users for the player to have. Does this game need it? No, not particularly, but I want it. Make it an option for villagers and add an extra character on Celica's route that is a Fighter. Combined with other classes getting access to axes on promotion and they can be fully implemented.

3. Remove the recovery effect from every other ring so recovery rings actually bring something to the table. To add to this, make it so food is rarer, but has a sort of auto effect at the start of a turn. Think renewal, only it has a capacity limit. This is how you keep mage's useful even though every other ring doesn't provide recovery. The way it is now, auto healing is so easy that the HP costs for spells might as well not exist. Significantly increase the stamina cost on using healing spells. Right now ease of use of healing makes it so stamina basically doesn't exist.

4 Don't edit any of the maps (because I like Gaiden's map design), but remove and replace the maps that are repeated (random battles aside). However, while I like the maps, I understand how people can get annoyed with all the swamp and sand. So I'd add in a pair of rings that negate movement penalties on with the swamp/lava ring also negating the damage incurred.6. Expand things so there is one weapon slot, and one item slot. A lot of items in the game are simply not worth having on a non mage character because having a weapon is simply a superior option. Why should equipping a shield mean I can't equip a sword?

5. Make it so you can set what attack you can counter attack with. This allows more variety to enemy phase. Set Double Lion as your counter attack? Well you'll destroy everyone, but that HP cost on it will actually matter. Want to counter from three range? Okay, but Lightning isn't as powerful as Beloved Zofia.

6. Weapon skills are learned by the weapon, not the character and weapon combined. So if I learn how to use Tigerstrike by equipping a sword to Saber, Kamui can also use the skill if I equip it to him.

7. Redo the Witch warping mechanic. Free range to warp anywhere and attack is too broken. It's never actually bothered me all that much, but I've heard other people complain so I guess I just got lucky. And that's part of the problem, luck should not be a factor. Either make it like Fates where witches can only warp to spots adjacent to an ally, or make it so warping ends their turn like teleport.

8. Make it so Delthea and Sonya are and stay witches after you recruit them. This requires changing the story about how witches are all soulless. But I'm fine with that because the story flipfloped on the point of whether it was voluntary in the first place.

9. Expand Sonya's role in the story. Because she's the daughter of Jeddah, that should matter.

10. But keep her as a unit you have to choose between Dean with. So to keep that choice an actual choice, significantly expand his role in the story too (make him related to someone famous too maybe, or just have his intel on Rigel being vital) so he's not just that guy everyone kills to fight Sonya.

10* Or make it so the choice is still there, but you have a third choice to go through the desert between them fighting a significantly harder battle (for some reason fighting a giant sandworm is something I want to see in Gaiden). And during the assault against Grieth, they appear as reinforcements after a certain number of turns. They retreat when Grieth is killed though (this is an astrixed numbered point because I'm less sure of it, even if they're both recruitable, Sonya's plot involvement should be higher).

11. Make that first Canter who attacks Celica a character with a name like most bosses. It's a distinctive moment. He should get a name, like Ain did in Binding Blade (though I do actually object to Ain having a name since he's meant to be soulless clone soldier).

12. Do something more significant with Berkut and Conrad. Right now their plot lines could be cut with no adverse effects (we know that for a fact because they don't exist in Gaiden!).

13. Add a dancer. I know we have Renew if you choose to make Faye a cleric, but it still irks me that we see dancers in the cinematic the FMVs but they don't actually exist in the game. Preferably in the temple of Mia on Celica's route so sand and swamps are more bearable.

14. Either remove the Dreadfighter loop or make it an option for every class. Nosfeartau killing Duma is also a harmless easter egg in the same vein, but it also irks me so remove it.

15. Give me a memory prism that reveals Gotoh was the one who warped Camus to Valentia (I wouldn't object to some more minor Archanea cameos too so long as they're not contrived, throw someone from Kaden into the village beside Thabes at least).

16. If we're going to leave the ridiculous "That wasn't me, that was my double!" line for Desaix, then for shits and giggles reveal that it was Xane playing the role of Desaix. Only the highly dedicated would ever even beat Desaix at the end of Chapter 1 anyway (plus, he has a Dragon Shield, so being Xane actually does make a bit of sense). If you want an explanation as to why Xane is working with the bad guys, he just doesn't care enough to get any context with the situation. It would basically be played more for a joke than anything, can easily be dismissed as non canon if one so desires.

16*Alternatively, pull a Llyod and Linus let Desaix die if you can beat him early, and have him swap roles with Slayde for the twenty minutes or so of plot that takes place between then. I didn't really like how they also kept Slayde alive only to do nothing with him.

17. DLC map (or series of maps like Future Past/Heirs of Fate) where you play as Rudolf invading Zofia with an army made up of the various bosses in the game. I want to fight Mila damnit. She'd probably be in Heroes already if her dragon design was actually properly shown off in game. If it is a series of maps, then character exps should be kept between maps like it should have been in Heirs of Fate.

18. Make Jeddah's arguments more reasonable. He actually starts out pretty decently on his first encounter with Celica, but from there he inexplicably gets more murderous and more of his lies get exposed, yet Celica's trust for him proportionally increases. Maybe adding a new villain working for Jeddah that you fight at the top of the tower of Duma to justify why the Duma Faithful keeps attacking you would help things.

19. See my signature pic for my opinion on Alm's character. They could at least have him call Mycen gramps instead of grandfather (I assume that's something he said in the original Gaiden and not a translation error on the translators part, Japanese is pretty specific with those kind of terms).

20.Call the continent Valencia instead of Valentia, because that's just a cooler name.

Now obviously some of the gameplay changes listed will massively increase how powerful the player is, particularly having both weapon and item slots and manually setting your counter. So it would have a response of needing to overhaul the entire enemy stats and maybe even an aspect of the combat system overall (a steeper margin needed for follow up attacks for example). Tell me which of these changes you like and/or don't like and also tell me what modifications you would have made to this particular remake.

Bonus 21st thing that I forgot until now. Put Anna in the game somewhere! Gaiden got a pass for predating the idea, but now it's breaking some kind of law to not have her around. I don't even want her playable or anything. Just have her control the DLC menu or something.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Jotari

[Gregster101]

I can agree with some of your changes like having other classes be able to use more than one weapon type, but I'd also add more support conversations

[Interdimensional Observer]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

15. Give me a memory prism that reveals Gotoh was the one who warped Camus to Valentia

I can totally understand why you'd want to change the idea a critically wounded Camus could fall into a river and then float down into the open sea and thence from there across many leagues and wind up alive on another continent's shores. I get this.

 

However, I've a got a bone to pick with this particular idea. Why would Gotoh want to save Camus?

Gotoh might have sided with Naga in favor of humanity long ago, he might have given Anri Falchion, and he might have taught humanity how to use magic and maintained to the present day a role in Khadein. But, Gotoh isn't boundless love for Humanity, he ultimately has some degree of aloofness which he states. And with that aloofness, what would compel him to save Camus, and why zap him to another continent?

Then there is the how would he? I assume you mean Gotoh would warp him immediately after the final battle in Grust. But Gotoh is still in Macedon at this time, why would he leave its security under Michalis, and Marth is coming his way. You'd have to relocate Starlight acquisition in SD to fix this. If Gotoh did not immediately find Camus after the battle, imagine this scenario.:

• Gotoh walking into a backwater Grustian village for no reason and finding a 20/24 hours of the day unconscious and incapacitated stuck in bed Camus unable to remember anything, wrapped in bandages for his severe wound. He is being being nursed lovingly by a peasant mother and her five year old daughter, innocently infatuated with this handsome blonde man like her mother does not realize is the Sable himself.

If Gotoh saw that scene, would he really break up its tenderness and just send Camus flying out of bed? And if something like this didn't happen, where someone found Camus and began caring for him, then how left untreated and unconscious would he survive outdoors for days, weeks, or months before Gotoh roaming through some woods for whatever reason, found him?

 

Getting back to the why from that, what in Gotoh's aloofness would make him want to save Camus? Camus once freed from fighting for Grust would be a good soldier yes, but why send him to a distant continent instead of keeping him on one that needs it? I'd rather not invent prophecy and call Camus a lesser chosen one which Gotoh only saw and followed to the letter.

You could say Gotoh knew Nyna's heart lay with Camus, but she needed to wed Hardin or Marth to restore Archanea, therefore zapping Camus elsewhere to make sure she never discovers him makes sense. -But that would assume Gotoh knew about this bit of Archanean marital politics in advance of the War of the Shadows conclusion, and that seems to me to below the vision of Gotoh. Boah the court bishop would understand that, but not someone who is divorced from politics and doesn't want to be in them. 

 

I think I'd rather stick with the current explanation of no explanation with assumptions.

And if I had to invent a new excuse or tweak the current one, then have a fishing village find the unconscious body of Camus. They don't fully understand his clothing's insignias and such, so they can't realize he is the Sable, but they know he is a Grustian soldier of some renown. The village practices burial at sea. They load his body which they think is dead into a coffin. They drag the coffin out into the water, and as per-tradition, the coffin floats away into the distance, until eventually the waves sink it under. The waves don't do that with Camus's coffin, but eventually it does open up on the rough seas, Camus's body, which wasn't dead after all, wakes up and struggles to swim to survive just out of instinct. Then he washes up on Valentia's shores.

Or, maybe find a way to canonize those resurrection springs in Valentia. Aum is canon in Archanea, Valkyria in Jugdral. And in the case of Valkyria, it is said that only those of sufficient Quintessence (and presumably not too long dead, otherwise, just bring back Heim to fix everything) can be revived. Camus has plenty o' Quintessence if his reputation and fighting ability is anything to go by, he should have more than Elbert, the guy whose Quintessence alone could open an interdimensional gate. Therefore, Camus actually died, but a little literal aqua vitae got him a new 40 year lease.

 

44 minutes ago, Jotari said:

20.Call the continent Valencia instead of Valentia, because that's just a cooler name.

*Throws an orange at you*

But the name would almost certainly get changed in the European version. Because Alm and Celica aren't saving a city on the eastern coast of Spain. So why go with a fully exposed name borrowing in the NA version?

And, I prefer Valentia myself. Maybe I've just gotten used to it, but the "t" adds strength to the name. Valencia is smoother sounding, but in the end, Rigel is the better half, so stronger name wins out over the more chill Zofian preference.

[Punished Dayni]

I have some opinions.

1. I mean, maybe. I don't know how I'd feel, which weapons to add to which units.

2. Darros? Barst?

3. True, that's a point. Maybe there could be a later on recovery ring that gives more HP.

4 One weapon, one item would become such a huge change for this game and balancing around it may have been a bridge too far. Also, what go Mages get in this case what with no weapon?

6. Maybe I'd prefer it locked to user. Though this would be easier.

8. Is it confirmed all witches ever are soulless? It is certain that witches who offer themselves to Duma are, neither of these two are like that.

11. Kant, R?

14. Keep the Nosferatu glitch.

15. Honestly, why? I'm curious as to why that would be the way?

19. He needed Crush these bastards. Just, the whole attitude that leads to that line is not there in SoV.

20. Valentia for life. Especially because the actual Valentia's a small island near a bigger one. 😛

[Jotari]

29 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

snip

I think I assume Gotoh is more powerful than you assume he is. Gotoh never appears in the Thabes chapter or in the first chapter in Doluna. Which leads me to think he isn't physically with Marth, yet was able to remotely warp them across the continent. We also know he has the ability to remotely observe distant events, so there's no need for him to physically meet Camus. I admit it's possible Gotoh is with Marth during Chapters 23 and 24, and I have no decent explanation as to why he wouldn't be, but the fact that he doesn't appear at all, and Malladas even quotes Gotoh to give some exposition instead of Gotoh showing up in person leads me to believe he isn't. He's also powerful enough to warp people to different dimensions so I think remotely warping one man from one continent to near another would be in the realm of what would be believable for him if it were canonized.

Now as for the why, you got me there. There's not much of a reason for him to do. But having Gotoh in ghost form show up and say "You are needed elsewhere" or "I am surprised you survived, but I can't risk having you working against me any further" etc would significantly appease my willing suspension of disbelief than the idea that Camus is doesn't require sustenance. And while Gotoh is aloof, we do see that he eventually relents with Tiki and allows Bantu to let her remain awake. So it could work towards his character development as the softening of Gotoh.

Also I'll add another cameo I'd add. If we're going to leave the ridiculous "That wasn't me, that was my double!" line for Desaix, then for shits and giggles reveal that it was Xane playing the role of Desaix. Only the highly dedicated would ever even beat Desaix at the end of Chapter 1 anyway. Alternatively, let Desaix die if you can beat him, and have him swap roles with Slayde for the twenty minutes or so of plot that takes place between then. I didn't really like how they also kept Slayde alive only to do nothing with him.

29 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

*Throws an orange at you*

But the name would almost certainly get changed in the European version. Because Alm and Celica aren't saving a city on the eastern coast of Spain. So why go with a fully exposed name borrowing in the NA version?

And, I prefer Valentia myself. Maybe I've just gotten used to it, but the "t" adds strength to the name. Valencia is smoother sounding, but in the end, Rigel is the better half, so stronger name wins out over the more chill Zofian preference.

They left Crimeia, the Leinster provinces and like half a dozen more that I just can't think of now. Actually I suppose Jugdral hasn't been localised, though I really hope they keep the Irish province names if they do ever give us a Holy War remake.

Valentia with a T also is a real world location too, albeit a more obscure one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentia_Island

27 minutes ago, Dayni said:

4 One weapon, one item would become such a huge change for this game and balancing around it may have been a bridge too far. Also, what go Mages get in this case what with no weapon?

20. Valentia for life. Especially because the actual Valentia's a small island near a bigger one. 😛

I suspected one weapon one item would be the most controversial opinion of mine. Yet I want to see it. As for what mages get, weapons. Like the priestess class. Either that or staves like what Three Houses did.

27 minutes ago, Dayni said:

20. Valentia for life. Especially because the actual Valentia's a small island near a bigger one. 😛

That would have made sense back when Valentia actually was a small Island. Which I did debate about putting on this list, but Awakening kind of made that ship sail long before Shadows of Valentia was around. Even with that reference though, I still just like Valencia the word better. If they were going the reference route then they definitely would have had to put some kind of variation of Mug Ruith in there.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

49 minutes ago, Jotari said:

They left Crimeia, the Leinster provinces and like half a dozen more that I just can't think of now. Actually I suppose Jugdral hasn't been localised, though I really hope they keep the Irish province names if they do ever give us a Holy War remake.

If PoR were first made now, I'm certain we'd be talking talking about Crimquia instead.🇺🇦

NoE thought the Crimean Peninsula was too eastern in Europe to change it unlike Bern to Biran? PoR wasn't translated into Ukrainian I'm certain.

As for Jugdral, Awakening localizers renamed the boy named after the Queen of the Land of Shadows to that of an Irish province. I'm not familiar with the naming practices of other countries, but I haven't seen any American girls named Florida, or boys named Idaho. Nor have I ever heard of a typical English person named Northumbria (would be a cool name though). So I can see Ulster either going back to being Chulainn's mentor, or getting a third name.

49 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Which leads me to think he isn't physically with Marth, yet was able to remotely warp them across the continent.

That is outright stated.

"With the aid of the White Sage Gotoh’s powerful Warp magic, Marth and company were transported to the faraway city of Thabes."

49 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Also I'll add another cameo I'd add. If we're going to leave the ridiculous "That wasn't me, that was my double!" line for Desaix, then for shits and giggles reveal that it was Xane playing the role of Desaix. Only the highly dedicated would ever even beat Desaix at the end of Chapter 1 anyway.

I'm feeling that would mess with Xane's character a little. He would masquerade as someone who he could readily recognize as a bad human, and humanity on the whole he doesn't like, and however slightly assist that bad human by taking on their appearance in a battle. Why? And, what would adding this slightly bad side, as opposed to the innocent joke that is the Tiki trick, mean about the nature of Xane?

Edited September 7, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Getting back to the why from that, what in Gotoh's aloofness would make him want to save Camus? Camus once freed from fighting for Grust would be a good soldier yes, but why send him to a distant continent instead of keeping him on one that needs it? I'd rather not invent prophecy and call Camus a lesser chosen one which Gotoh only saw and followed to the letter.

You could say Gotoh knew Nyna's heart lay with Camus, but she needed to wed Hardin or Marth to restore Archanea, therefore zapping Camus elsewhere to make sure she never discovers him makes sense. -But that would assume Gotoh knew about this bit of Archanean marital politics in advance of the War of the Shadows conclusion, and that seems to me to below the vision of Gotoh. Boah the court bishop would understand that, but not someone who is divorced from politics and doesn't want to be in them. 

I think a somewhat generic ''This is not your time'' or ''fate has more in store for you'' would be enough to justify Camus being given a little vacation to Valentia in order to escape death. It might also be a bit of pity, a belief that a good person like Camus shouldn't die just because his loyalty has trapped him. 

I'd argue that during the war of Shadows the continent actually needed for Camus not to be there. He wouldn't have stopped fighting until the war was 100% over. He would never join Marth while the kingdom Grust allied itself to still exited. A little vacation fixes that. By the time he's finally back Grust and Dolhr have both stopped existing and the war is over. He wouldn't oppose Marth and wouldn't be trapped by old loyalties anymore. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

If PoR were first made now, I'm certain we'd be talking talking about Crimquia instead.🇺🇦

Thank goodness that's not our reality!

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

As for Jugdral, Awakening localizers renamed the boy named after the Queen of the Land of Shadows to that of an Irish province. I'm not familiar with the naming practices of other countries, but I haven't seen any American girls named Florida, or boys named Idaho. Nor have I ever heard of a typical English person named Northumbria (would be a cool name though). So I can see Ulster either going back to being Chulainn's mentor, or getting a third name.

Yeah I guess it would be weird to have a character who's name was shared with an unrelated location in the same game. I hope they change his name and get the province right though.

On the subject of people being named after places, there's a non significant number of people called Scot. Kerry is also a not uncommon name.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

That is outright stated.

"With the aid of the White Sage Gotoh’s powerful Warp magic, Marth and company were transported to the faraway city of Thabes."

The map also shows them warping back from Thabes at the start of Chapter 24.

So either Gotoh went with them to Thabes and never said a word while they were fighting Gharnef and the forces outside of Medeus's castle, or he was able to warp them back from Thabes remotely.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm feeling that would mess with Xane's character a little. He would masquerade as someone who he could readily recognize as a bad human, and humanity on the whole he doesn't like, and however slightly assist that bad human by taking on their appearance in a battle. Why? And, what would adding this slightly bad side, as opposed to the innocent joke that is the Tiki trick, mean about the nature of Xane?

I'd play it as he simply doesn't care enough to have a perspective on the situation. He just sees it as a human conflict where humans on both sides are doing there stupid human thing of killing each other. It would basically be played off as a joke that could be written off as a noncanon scenario if wanted. The whole Desaix body double basically is noncanon anyway, because if he is canon and you don't kill him, where the bloody hell does he vanish to?

And of course if you don't like that, the second option to pull a Llyod and Linus and have Slayde replace Desaix in the story for the next few battles would be interesting anyway. Not like Slayde actually does anything with the survival they gave him Shadows of Valentia.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Jotari

[Hawkwing]

1. I personally like that each class can only wield one weapon, so that you have to work with the weapons you do have. That said, I do agree that there should have been more sword-wielding classes. Also, how is being unable to wield swords in gameplay a plot hole? Mycen trained Alm up in Swords, yet uses lances in-game. It could be as simple as Rudolf knowing how to wield swords, but preferring/finding it more practical to use lances on horseback.
2. Atlus should definitely have used one as a villager, and I do agree that an extra axe-weilding class would be neat. Time and resource constraints from making the class, as well as having to create a bunch of new axe weapons so it's not left in the dust (and thus a bunch of new combat arts along with them) are the main reasons I see for why they didn't do this.
3. Eh I actually like the amount of healing options you have in this game. It balances out how spells and combat arts require HP to use, as well as how the number of dedicated healers you have can be counted on one hand. I find that unlimited healing is balanced out by giving much less exp this time around, so you can't quite abuse healing to gain quick levels like in previous games.
4. Agreed on creating new maps for when the originals are repeated. Again, time and money constraints might have had a factor in why they didn't do this. I would personally add thin bridges to swamp maps, so the player is forced into the conundrum of moving their units through a fast but tight bridge or through a slow swamp. That, or just add more safe tiles in-between. The Desert maps had small patches of plain land to help your units get to the action faster, why not swamps?
   1. Also, while I like the idea of having an item slot to place shields and rings in, it may or may not have the potential to make units overpowered. Game testing would have to see how this idea would work in practice.
5. The problem I see with this is that it would more micromanagement to an otherwise fast paced game. The player already has to predict which enemy would attack each unit and how much damage they would be dealt, so adding in having to predict the HP cost on top of that would add a lot more than one would think. Lighting automatically countering bows should have been a thing, though.
6. Hmmm... I'd have to see this idea in practice to know whether I would like it or not. I do find it convenient that characters that learned a skill with one item/weapon could use it immediately if another item has the same ability, but that situation is admittedly rare. On the other hand, it means that if I had, say, two steel swords, under this system, I could have one blade whose abilities are maxed out while the other still has some skills to learn, ignoring how I could have switched the original sword between two units and they both unlocked all the combat arts.
7. I'll give credit to the writers that the erratic behavior of witches has a reason behind it, but I do agree that there should be something more predictable to their movements. Having to rely on luck to avoid bullcrap situations (or surviving Sonya's map) isn't good game design.
8. It's been a few months since I last played Echoes, but I believe that some witches become so voluntarily out of piety/pursuit of power, while others it was definitely against their will. Both Sonya and Delthea learn reward, so a remnant of this idea is already in the game.
   1. On a side note, show that some of the aracanists and cantors are personally controlled by Duma like witches are, and are just as mindless and crazy. It's just less noticeable because they don't warp around. This would help reduce the sexism, and maybe have Duma come off as a min-maxer who, after researching/discovering that he could cause females under his control to warp, didn't bother extending it to males, akin to how a strategy gamer might stop researching a specific tech field to focus on another one, regardless of the in-universe implications.
9. Agreed
10. Deen does have an interesting backstory in the Valentia Accordian, and while it's understandable why he doesn't bring it up (he pretty much lost everything that day), it would be cool if we at least got hints of it in the game itself. Also, he shows a savvy side in his final base conversation, telling Celica that regardless of whether or not she rules Zofia after the game is done, she shouldn't forget the mistakes that past royals have made, and that knocking out the bad guy and saving their deity wouldn't bring back any lost lives. It would be neat if this side of him popped up more.
    1. Hey, another person want's giant worms in Fire Emblem! And for the battle where you would face Deen and Sonya at the same time, and recruit both of them! Could even make sense storywise, because in an attempted flank with unexpected sandworms, Celcias army still came out on top, giving them the idea that they she might actually be able to defeat Desaix, giving them a reason to change sides. Don't know if I would want them to appear as reinforcements, though, but being fair that's just because I dislike the mechanic in general, and I'm glad that Gaiden/Echoes uses the more predictable cantors instead.
11. Sure
12. Agreed
13. Never really used dancers in previous games since I don't build strategies around moving twice in the same turn, but seeing as Echoes allows you to field everyone, I think they get more use in this game. And yeah, they would help make the desert/swamp maps more bearable.
14. Considering the mercenaries had unique spell lists in the original game, the Dread Fighter Loop was intentional. I do agree that it shouldn't be limited to just one class, though (even if I do like the explanation that the Valentia Accordian gives for why Dread Fighters can become villagers). The Nosferatu Easter egg isn't something you do out of practicality, so there's no harm done in keeping it.
15. There are other things I would make memory prisms out of. Seeing as I still have to play Shadow Dragon (why does this game only seem to appear in stores when I'm not interested in buying it?) I can't comment on Gotoh's actions here.
16. What happened to 16? Did you poison his mutton?
17. I want my tragicomedy of Valbar, Leon, and Kamui first, but I wouldn't be opposed to this. I also want my expansion pack that shows what happens immediately after the game ends, because I'm curious about what Alm and Celica's rule is like, having cross-party interactions we didn't get in the base game, and seeing the rebellions and other issues they have to face and address issues people had with the original games story so they will finally shut up about them. As much as I dislike how the big twist shoots itself in the foot narrative, I can't help but be intrigued by how people in-universe would react to the turn of events, and I see the potential for an interesting story there.
18. Agreed. Personally, I would have had Jedah make it clear that he's willing to hand over Mila in exchange for Celica's soul, and that it could be done without any bloodshed if she comes peacefully. However, he won't take no for an answer, and that if he has to use force, it's because Celica is, and the longer she resists, the higher the body count will grow, so all the blood will be on her hands. This would make Celica's conflicted feelings even more understandable, and explain why the Duma Faithful still attack you. I would also keep and expand upon the Necrodragon threat against Alm, because while it's brought up, it doesn't quite have the impact it should. Have Duma said he will keep sending necrodragons after the Deliverance until Celica gives up, and he doesn't care if it takes days, weeks, years, or even centuries for all of them to die out. This would hit Celica in two soft spots, and make her decision rash but understandable.
19. Eh, wouldn't care either way. Maybe Alm could use both, depending on how formal he wishes the conversation to be.
20. I'm fine with Valentia, although I don't see myself complaining if they decided to name it Valencia.

[Jotari]

23 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

1. Hey, another person want's giant worms in Fire Emblem! And for the battle where you would face Deen and Sonya at the same time, and recruit both of them! Could even make sense storywise, because in an attempted flank with unexpected sandworms, Celcias army still came out on top, giving them the idea that they she might actually be able to defeat Desaix, giving them a reason to change sides. Don't know if I would want them to appear as reinforcements, though, but being fair that's just because I dislike the mechanic in general, and I'm glad that Gaiden/Echoes uses the more predictable cantors instead.

There wasn't when Shadows of Valentia was released, but there actually are giant worms in Fire Emblem now, as of Three Houses.

28 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

1.  
2. What happened to 16? Did you poison his mutton?

Eep. That must have been because I got to the end and had more than 20, so I went back and combined some into one point to free up space (because I didn't want to exceed 20 damnit). It needed a reordering so 16 was missed. Well now that frees me to add in my Xane cameo.

[Punished Dayni]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

That would have made sense back when Valentia actually was a small Island. Which I did debate about putting on this list, but Awakening kind of made that ship sail long before Shadows of Valentia was around. Even with that reference though, I still just like Valencia the word better. If they were going the reference route then they definitely would have had to put some kind of variation of Mug Ruith in there.

That is a bit disappointing, both there being no reference and my not knowing about this before (my Irish mythology knowledge is a bit lacking frankly).

Also, if it were going to be Valencia the lack of an El Cid-like figure would also be disappointing.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Dayni said:

That is a bit disappointing, both there being no reference and my not knowing about this before (my Irish mythology knowledge is a bit lacking frankly).

Also, if it were going to be Valencia the lack of an El Cid-like figure would also be disappointing.

I don't seriously think there was any intention to reference. They just used names that they heard somewhere and liked. Except maybe Byrne. I could buy that one being complete coincidence. Probably the best example of that is Isaach in Jugdral, which has Irish names everywhere, but has something akin to a middle eastern aesthetic with all it's robes and shamshirs. Curious to see how they visually design that area if we do get a remake.

[Seafarer]

On 9/8/2019 at 12:37 AM, Jotari said:

 16*Alternatively, pull a Llyod and Linus let Desaix die if you can beat him early, and have him swap roles with Slayde for the twenty minutes or so of plot that takes place between then. I didn't really like how they also kept Slayde alive only to do nothing with him.

They used Slayde as a reason why Tatarrah of the Duma Faithful somehow knew where to go to kidnap a powerful mage girl, and he shows up at the end on Rigel's side, showing us he's a self-centred opportunist. Not sure how that's "do[ing] nothing with him".

I wish the Desaix thing had been changed to "oh no I shall retreat", since that's popular among modern FE bosses.

EDIT: Oh, the sword thing. Well, everyone knows how to use swords, because everyone can become a villager or is Alm/Celica. Doesn't seem reasonable to me to suppose that Rudolf can't; it's just that he doesn't in gameplay because of his class. He must have used a Pitchfork before going to fight Mila.

Valentia is objectively cooler than Valencia.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Seafarer

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Seafarer said:

They used Slayde as a reason why Tatarrah of the Duma Faithful somehow knew where to go to kidnap a powerful mage girl, and he shows up at the end on Rigel's side, showing us he's a self-centred opportunist. Not sure how that's "do[ing] nothing with him".

I wish the Desaix thing had been changed to "oh no I shall retreat", since that's popular among modern FE bosses.

EDIT: Oh, the sword thing. Well, everyone knows how to use swords, because everyone can become a villager or is Alm/Celica. Doesn't seem reasonable to me to suppose that Rudolf can't; it's just that he doesn't in gameplay because of his class. He must have used a Pitchfork before going to fight Mila.

Valentia is objectively cooler than Valencia.

Well 1) Did he? When is that revealed? I just checked all the text in Alm's route for Chapter 3 and Slayde isn't mentioned once. Ah, I see its cryptically put in at the end of Chapter 2 when Slayde is talking to the Cantor. You'd think if they were going to make that an aspect they would have, you know, made him actually part of that plot line. A rival for Luther. Have him actually be a force the protagonists need to contend with.

2) That's something that never needed explaining. Rigel was already in control of that area. Finding a powerful mage while searching villages isn't questionable.

3) If it's really so contrived for RIgel to find Delthea, the Zofian traitors could have revealed her whereabouts before that point anyway. The village is only a stone's throw away from Desaix's forces anyway.

4) How does Slayde know about a powerful mage in some backwater village anyway? He's a noble, what's he doing hanging out in the middle of the forest? Either it's common knowledge in which case his intel isn't actually all that critical, or Slayde has some connection to that particular village that is never elaborated upon. I find Rigel discovering Delthea's existence while scouring the land trying to establish their control more believable then Slayde being informed of the abilities of the peasantry. I guess he does end up in Ram village for some reason in the prologue, so him randomly wandering out isn't unprecedented. Though any lines from that interaction would just suggest he's less likely to pay attention and notice any adept mages, unless Delthea had a hot relative nearby. It's at least as equally contrived as Rigel finding out on their own.

5) Desaix's just as unscrupulous as the Duma Faithful. Why wasn't Delthea already in his service? He might not have mind control powers, but there's other means of persuading people to do things, like holding Luther hostage. Delthea's considered a valuable resource by Slayde yet Desaix and him weren't doing anything with her.

I like Slayde's appearance in the prologue, as it directly influences the plot, being the trigger that forces Celica out of Ram Village. But his survival was basically one scene where we established he survived, and then another scene at almost the end of the game where he appears only to actually be killed. Really, why? What would change if Slayde was kept dead like in the original? Nothing. His survival accomplished nothing. It'd be like of Hyman survived his battle with Marth and then joined Macedon and served as the boss of Chapter 21. If you're going to retcon a survival, then sure, but you have to actually do something with the character. One line of text hinting at the fact that he sold Delthea isn't enough. If he actually appeared in that plot line and made himself relevant, then I wouldn't be complaining. It's like the writers decided they'd let Slayde survive, and then completely forgot about him and had to shove him into the end of the game to resolve the plot point.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Jotari

[Seafarer]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well 1) Did he? When is that revealed? I just checked all the text in Alm's route for Chapter 3 and Slayde isn't mentioned once. Ah, I see its cryptically put in at the end of Chapter 2 when Slayde is talking to the Cantor. You'd think if they were going to make that an aspect they would have, you know, made him actually part of that plot line. A rival for Luther. Have him actually be a force the protagonists need to contend with.

2) That's something that never needed explaining. Rigel was already in control of that area. Finding a powerful mage while searching villages isn't questionable.

3) If it's really so contrived for RIgel to find Delthea, the Zofian traitors could have revealed her whereabouts before that point anyway. The village is only a stone's throw away from Desaix's forces anyway.

4) How does Slayde know about a powerful mage in some backwater village anyway? He's a noble, what's he doing hanging out in the middle of the forest? Either it's common knowledge in which case his intel isn't actually all that critical, or Slayde has some connection to that particular village that is never elaborated upon. I find Rigel discovering Delthea's existence while scouring the land trying to establish their control more believable then Slayde being informed of the abilities of the peasantry. I guess he does end up in Ram village for some reason in the prologue, so him randomly wandering out isn't unprecedented. Though any lines from that interaction would just suggest he's less likely to pay attention and notice any adept mages, unless Delthea had a hot relative nearby. It's at least as equally contrived as Rigel finding out on their own.

5) Desaix's just as unscrupulous as the Duma Faithful. Why wasn't Delthea already in his service? He might not have mind control powers, but there's other means of persuading people to do things, like holding Luther hostage. Delthea's considered a valuable resource by Slayde yet Desaix and him weren't doing anything with her.

I like Slayde's appearance in the prologue, as it directly influences the plot, being the trigger that forces Celica out of Ram Village. But his survival was basically one scene where we established he survived, and then another scene at almost the end of the game where he appears only to actually be killed. Really, why? What would change if Slayde was kept dead like in the original? Nothing. His survival accomplished nothing. It'd be like of Hyman survived his battle with Marth and then joined Macedon and served as the boss of Chapter 21. If you're going to retcon a survival, then sure, but you have to actually do something with the character. One line of text hinting at the fact that he sold Delthea isn't enough. If he actually appeared in that plot line and made himself relevant, then I wouldn't be complaining. It's like the writers decided they'd let Slayde survive, and then completely forgot about him and had to shove him into the end of the game to resolve the plot point.

I was under the impression that the existence of Delthea and Luthier's powerful magical bloodline was a secret known to the kings of Zofia and their closest advisors, which presumably made its way to Slayde from Chancellor Desaix... but I can't find a citation for that.

The most likely reason Slayde survived, though, is that, in Gaiden, he retreats and is never heard from again if you kill Fake Desaix. Instead of making two branches for whether a relatively minor villain lives or dies, they just decided to have him live either way and implicate him in something that didn't previously have an explanation (then he shows up at the end so you can still have the satisfaction of ending his smug smirk).

And he has every reason not to appear in the Delthea part of the plot, given that he's an obviously-untrustworthy defector from the enemy side. He's not the kind of person you'd immediately throw back into the fight, lest he sell you out as easily as he sold out to you.

(We can only speculate on Desaix's motives for not trying to make use of Delthea.)

[Emperor Hardin]

I'm a little disappointed to see no mention about Baron movement and their worthless skill or Dread Fighters gaining halve magic when they already have godly res in a game overflowing with magic enemies?

 

On 9/8/2019 at 9:19 AM, Jotari said:

8. Make it so Delthea and Sonya are and stay witches after you recruit them. This requires changing the story about how witches are all soulless. But I'm fine with that because the story flipfloped on the point of whether it was voluntary in the first place.

The soulless witches was almost entirely a remake addition, when in the original; most of the witches were voluntary cultists, many of the Arcanists/Cantors were soulless and only Jedah's daughters were mentioned as sacrificed(all three of them in some translations).

Edited September 26, 2019 by Emperor Hardin

[Acacia Sgt]

Really? I wonder now... well, I don't have the time right now to check Gaiden's script; but perhaps later.

Anyway, I'd say, on the subject of the witches, it would've been interesting to have had a playable witch, soulless and all. Would be hard to justify with the current lore on witches... but still something interesting in itself.

Reminds me of Tales of Symphonia, when a character is also more or less "soulless" during a part of the game; but remained a party member and stuff. So still present for battles and stuff; but for all intents and purposes, wasn't there in self. It was fascinating.

[King Marth 64]

I got a few things to say about it.

8. I think the reason why Delthea and Sonya were changed Witches to Mages in the main chapters that they fight as enemies because Duma turns the women into full Witches and Delthea was a temporary witch. Sonya did escaped from Jedah and Rigel because of what she had saw her two sisters what had become of themselves.

9. I think Sonya should have more support conversations than just sticking with Genny as well as giving Deen another support conversation. We definitely know Jedah is a bad father to all his three daughters.

15. Why would Gotoh send Camus to Valentia since Gotoh has no connection towards Camus? I don't think Gotoh would help an enemy General that opposed Marth's army. That would make absolutely no sense if they had added the context about Gotoh's and Camus's relation from the two DS remakes or Mystery of the Emblem?

16. I don't know if it's a good idea to put Xane as a body double for Desaix? I think Xane would get himself killed in Zofia Castle battle since he does appear in Mystery of the Emblem and I don't think he would travel to Valentia in that 3 year gap.

19. They call Mycen Grandpapa since he liked to be called that way.

20. I think they should stick it to Valentia, Valencia sounded more like a real world city. Nintendo never used the name Valencia as an official name in any materials.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Really? I wonder now... well, I don't have the time right now to check Gaiden's script; but perhaps later.

The sole mention is Sonya's ending, which in some translation says "Judah sacrificed his three daughters" and that her sisters were turned into witches. Do note Marla and Heste use the same drone-like dialogue(its written in Katakana, also used by Medeus's sacrifices) as the Arcanists and Cantor bosses.

So based off the original game, many of the Duma faithful in general are brainwashed and its not something that just applies solely to witches like in the remake.

Many of the other witches are treated as regular cultists, also note Tear Ring Saga which has regular arcanists and a corrupted/brainwashed arcanist.

[Jotari]

14 hours ago, Seafarer said:

The most likely reason Slayde survived, though, is that, in Gaiden, he retreats and is never heard from again if you kill Fake Desaix. Instead of making two branches for whether a relatively minor villain lives or dies, they just decided to have him live either way and implicate him in something that didn't previously have an explanation (then he shows up at the end so you can still have the satisfaction of ending his smug smirk).

Well, as I said, I would have liked it better if they did make two branching path lines for whether he lived or died. It wouldn't have actually made that big a difference considering how quickly afterwards Desaix dies. Would basically take as much effort as what they actually did though.

14 hours ago, Seafarer said:

And he has every reason not to appear in the Delthea part of the plot, given that he's an obviously-untrustworthy defector from the enemy side. He's not the kind of person you'd immediately throw back into the fight, lest he sell you out as easily as he sold out to you.

As opposed to what they actually do, which was to reward him handsomely and give him an entire fortress right beside the capital to defend, making him one of the most vital pieces of Rigel's home base. Keeping a traitor and arms length and sending to the front lines to make a win win either way would be far smarter than entrusting them with a massive amount of authority that continues late into the war when a betrayal would be far more devastating. Of course Rudolf actually wanted to lose the war, so maybe that was fully intentional and Slayde was expected to betray Rigel but didn't.

8 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Really? I wonder now... well, I don't have the time right now to check Gaiden's script; but perhaps later.

Anyway, I'd say, on the subject of the witches, it would've been interesting to have had a playable witch, soulless and all. Would be hard to justify with the current lore on witches... but still something interesting in itself.

Reminds me of Tales of Symphonia, when a character is also more or less "soulless" during a part of the game; but remained a party member and stuff. So still present for battles and stuff; but for all intents and purposes, wasn't there in self. It was fascinating.

I don't think that would have been hard to justify. After all, if someone has no will of their own, convincing them to fight for you is easy. Of course it would raise some moral questions about wether it's right to make someone without free will fight for you, but I assume that would be safely ignored along with the whole child soldier some games pull (did you know Tiki literally has the mind of a eight year old in the first game? Not as in the maturity of a ten year old, but as in she only has eight years worth of memories with the other millenia of her existence being spent in a terrifyingly lonely coma).

6 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

I got a few things to say about it.

8. I think the reason why Delthea and Sonya were changed Witches to Mages in the main chapters that they fight as enemies because Duma turns the women into full Witches and Delthea was a temporary witch. Sonya did escaped from Jedah and Rigel because of what she had saw her two sisters what had become of themselves.

That's retroactive reasoning. The writers get to decide the lore. They decided neither were Witches. They could have made the lore be anything.

6 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

15. Why would Gotoh send Camus to Valentia since Gotoh has no connection towards Camus? I don't think Gotoh would help an enemy General that opposed Marth's army. That would make absolutely no sense if they had added the context about Gotoh's and Camus's relation from the two DS remakes or Mystery of the Emblem?

He might help if said help involves sending said general to an entirely different continent and/or wiping his memory. We discussed this earlier in the thread if you want to review that convo.

6 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

16. I don't know if it's a good idea to put Xane as a body double for Desaix? I think Xane would get himself killed in Zofia Castle battle since he does appear in Mystery of the Emblem and I don't think he would travel to Valentia in that 3 year gap.

Xane would only need die in the route where you kill Desaix's doppleganger, which I think is obviously not the canon route (then again, Slayde survives, so maybe the much more difficult and tedious battle that breaks almost the rest of the game with the Dragon Shield is meant to be the intended outcome). And even then, Xane could retreat. The thing is basically posed as a joke more than something seroius (because let's face it, even though it's not written that way, the whole "har, har, har, that was my identical doppleganger who acted exactly like me" is an absolute joke. It was born purely from predating the concept of retreating in the series).

6 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

19. They call Mycen Grandpapa since he liked to be called that way.

Alm called Mycen the far more informal Gramps in the original Gaiden. Changing it to Grandfather is part of the sofening of Alm's character that I dislike. Grandpapa is what Celica calls Mycen which has nothing to do with Alm.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I don't think that would have been hard to justify. After all, if someone has no will of their own, convincing them to fight for you is easy. Of course it would raise some moral questions about wether it's right to make someone without free will fight for you, but I assume that would be safely ignored along with the whole child soldier some games pull (did you know Tiki literally has the mind of a eight year old in the first game? Not as in the maturity of a ten year old, but as in she only has eight years worth of memories with the other millenia of her existence being spent in a terrifyingly lonely coma).

No will doesn't mean subservient to anyone who happens to be across. Current lore witches is that they're subservient to Duma. That's the hard to justify part, considering you're against Rigel and the Duma Faithful for the most part.

HEh, that's old news. I'm not new to the franchise.

[Jotari]

37 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

No will doesn't mean subservient to anyone who happens to be across. Current lore witches is that they're subservient to Duma. That's the hard to justify part, considering you're against Rigel and the Duma Faithful for the most part.

HEh, that's old news. I'm not new to the franchise.

Which is where we once again go to the whole "that's the lore because they wrote it that way," fallacy. The lore can be anything they want it to be. There was no mandate saying it had to be that way. And inf fact, there's evidence to suggest it's not, as even in Shadows of Valentia Sonya manages to have witches fighting for her despite seemingly haven broken all ties with Rigel. If she can do it (whether by trickery or some loophole of the magic), then the protagonist can (in fact, if Battalions were a thing in Shadows of Valentia, I'm sure Sonya would have joined with her battalion of witches equipped).

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Which is where we once again go to the whole "that's the lore because they wrote it that way," fallacy. The lore can be anything they want it to be. There was no mandate saying it had to be that way. And inf fact, there's evidence to suggest it's not, as even in Shadows of Valentia Sonya manages to have witches fighting for her despite seemingly haven broken all ties with Rigel. If she can do it (whether by trickery or some loophole of the magic), then the protagonist can (in fact, if Battalions were a thing in Shadows of Valentia, I'm sure Sonya would have joined with her battalion of witches equipped).

That's why I said I would've found it interesting if we had a witch playable character with the current lore. The statement itself has nothing to do with the current lore being or not the original one As an aside, I would think using the phrase for dismissal is the usage of fallacy, not the phrase itself. Anyway, don't be so quick to dismiss. Just because Sonya has a group of witches seemingly under her command isn't an immediate strike to what witches are currently established to be. I'd like to point out Grieth has Cantors and Arcanists with him. This implies ties with the Duma Faithful, so the prescence of Witches then shouldn't be so unusual. It's likely those Witches were ordered to follow Sonya's command.

That's why I said hard, not impossible. Like you said, it could involve trickery or loopholes. Not so much the magic; but intent.

[Emperor Hardin]

And I'm still clear that the new lore of all Witches being soulless victims was unnecessary.

[Acacia Sgt]

I don't mind; but even if so, there's some degree of sense.

It probably stems that Duma was changed, or clarified, to be a dragon currently in the middle of the degeneration process. It wouldn't surprise me if the witches being like they are was more a byproduct of that than being the standard, or even intended, result. The writers also changed Nuibaba to now be a witch that kept her free will; and the only difference is that she instead sold her soul to Medusa, not Duma. Not being a dragon, Medusa didn't had that degeneration problem.

Like I said, makes sense to me. Perhaps if Duma wasn't made to be like so, the witches wouldn't likewise be changed to accomodate for that.