What do you think of the two main figures of the war? (Spoilers)

[ChickenBits]

1 hour ago, CyberNinja said:

For me, my logic is that it takes a certain kind of will - or coldness, to be able to sit idly/calmly while those suffer around you for centuries/millennia. In the case of Edelgard, she at least has the benefit of ignorance of the nature of war, as most people should, since they've been living in an era of relative peace regardless of the amount of suffering those at the bottom suffered.

Comparing the might of the Empire to the Alliance or Kingdom, its understandable one would believe the conflict to be a quick one, especially with the assistance of the Agarthans. Unfortunately as the war continues, supply lines get stretched and the war front expands, she loses the ability to concentrate her forces while the opposite happens for her enemies, she has to fight the terrain in the kingdom which is like the worst elements of Russia, France, and Poland combined. She's ignorant because she grew up in an era that had the peace to romanticize war, and her interactions with the lords reflect that.

One thing I find fascinating is that the criticisms that each lord throws at the other in the beginning of the game are completely accurate. Edelgard points to the lack of self awareness of Claude (who called her predictable) and Claude is completely blindsided that she was the Flame Emperor, Claude is correct: Edelgard is exceptionally naive, and like Dimitri said, her downfall comes from her inability to trust in those around her (or even her dear professor, in SS) and Dimitri's misery comes from being unable to read between the lines of what Edelgard was saying.

Great write up but the problem is that we don't know what happened during those 1000 years. Was society suffering as a whole? When did crest experimentation become rampant? Was the crests a huge factor since the beginning? Because of the uncertainty, I can't comment on that time period other than the fact Rhea managed to avoid all out war for a millennium.

Also, I didn't notice the how accurate that particular conversation ended up being. That's really neat.

38 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's a goal that makes sense and is in-character, but a goal I find quite reprehensible.

We have people with that exact goal in real life: deeply religious people who are willing to let their citizens suffer because they believe they are bringing about the God's world / the return of the Messiah / what-have-you, all of which tend to mean eternal peace and happiness. They may mean well, but they do incredible harm in the name of their belief.

I find the goal itself admirable, peace for everyone, but that doesn't mean I agree with the methodology. Rhea's lack of action against certain things is one of her glaring flaws. Tunnel vision basically.

[PrincessAlyson]

16 hours ago, ChickenBits said:

That's pretty much my thoughts as well. I just chose to focus on Rhea since she tends to get a lot of flak for her goal. Ultimately, I think her goal is admirable and understandable, but her lack of attention towards the present is problematic. 

It's honestly hard for me to say which one is more humane though. War is a horrific experience so I can't really get behind Edelgard because of that. 

Agreed. In talks like these I see Rhea and Edelgard get flak for things that are similar. I don't think either of them have the moral high ground, but I do empathize with Rhea more because she's lost more: most of her species. She's desperate to return to happier days and honestly, can't blame her for that. I would've lost my mind if I came home to find my family and species dead and their bodies mutilated to make weapons of mass destruction.

[TrueNoble]

There's a lot I've personally read into Edelgard's character, based on things I've noticed within cutscenes as well as gameplay. Some of what I'm about to present might be seen as leaps, especially when it comes to tying some observations of certain gameplay decisions made by the devs in with the wider narrative,  but as this is a video game and not a movie, I feel these observations are useful to take into consideration as well:

My core conceit is that Edelgard is, above all else, a tragic figure forced through reasons completely beyond her control down a bloody path. TWSITD used her, her entire family, in a bid for power over the continent. If she hadn't gone along with their wishes, they'd probably just as easily disposed of her as they did the rest of her family, or reduced to her a puppet monarch like her father and ruled that way. The way they used even one of their own, Kronya, then cast her aside so callously is a good example of what they could just as well do to Edelgard at any given moment. The way Kronya even begs the player for help in her final moments...is sort of reflective of Edelgard's final moments in non-BE runs, where she wishes she could have "walked" with the player. Seems her plan was to let them use her just long enough to be in a position where she could turn the tables on them, and destroy the institutions in place (i.e. crests, the church) that fueled the ideology behind their misdeeds. Or, perhaps this was just how she came to justify doing so to herself, as she was going to have to follow their orders anyway. The epilogue of Crimson Flower indeed mentions she takes the fight to them, but as it's been said earlier in this thread it doesn't outright say she is ever successful in fully defeating them.

This leads me to what I think is the main flaw of Edelgard's approach, in that she takes too much of this responsibility onto herself. Even Hubert, who actually does a lot of the heavy lifting for her,  which we see some evidence of in a letter he leaves behind on the Golden Deer route, does so mostly in secret, thus adding to her feeling like one pitted against the world, as the last survivor of her family that fell prey to TWSITD's cruel experiments. The one and only Flame Emperor cursed with deeper knowledge of TWSITD's existence. And this is something that's even directly brought up in the HubertxEdelgard Supports. Nemesis himself, I think, is shown as a kind of parallel to Edelgard, as this lone, powerful warrior that defied the Gods; a legend Edelgard strives to replicate, at her own peril. Which makes it all the more fitting that you fight him on the Golden Deer route, with Claude making the big, awesome friendship and unity speech in the final cutscene, since that's what ultimately rules the day. Not Dimitri, who pathetically dies like a wild dog off screen in that route. Not even Dedue going in alone to finish what Dimitri started, as I'll have you know I even paved the path for him to solo Edelgard, but the game itself literally does not allow him to drop her below 1 hp. Maybe this is true of NPCs when fighting any boss, but if not: Dedue LITERALLY cannot do it alone, and someone from your party needs to intervene. We see other NPCs land killing blows all the time, like Catherine when you first meet her, or Gilbert, or the Almyrans that briefly team up with you in Golden Deer, and yet it is specifically here, at such a pivotal moment, that Dedue cannot fulfill Dimitri's wishes all by himself...even though the designers have deliberately given him the stats that could allow him to do so if you try and let him.

I even think Edelgard's unique promoted Lord class serves a thematic purpose. She becomes an Armored Lord, as noticeably the only girl unit in the entire game with a penchant for Heavy Armor. Of course, there's the obvious draw from this that the heavy armor and indeed the whole flamboyant Flame Emperor persona is like a defense she has built around herself, but I also find it curious that this class was deliberately designed to not be able to cast Magic, even though Edelgard has such a strong Magic growth, near-premium (other than Lysithea) access to Black magic in her regular spell list, including Luna which perhaps not accidentally gives zero-recruit Beagles a much easier time in killing the Death Knight in his first appearance, and a fantastic budding talent in Reason on top of it. Almost as if...this facade, these walls around her, are holding her back from her full potential? And how standard Mages are generally more reliant on tankier allies to protect them.

Edelgard's fatal error was that she could have reached out to Dimitri and Claude, to form some kind of global unified front against TWSITD, but she doesn't. Edelgard deeply believes that the fate of mankind rests on her shoulders, and hers alone. Yet she knows what she is doing is wrong, and seems to always refrain from bloodying her own hands at every opportunity to further highlight this notion. See: her begging Byleth to kill her for the sake of peace in Golden Deer, her lamenting Dimitri's death in Crimson Flower as an unfortunate necessity to further her agenda, and, I think what is most important to note of all, the fact that in the BL route she doesn't stab Dimitri in the heart, or anywhere else that could seriously kill him when given the chance, but rather goes well out of her way to rise from her fallen position to stab him in the shoulder. She could have EASILY killed him there, using the dagger to carve her path as was said, but consciously did not...rather it seemed she just wanted to force him to kill her, to put an end to her brutal campaign, same as she begs Byleth to in Golden Deer. The instant she's defeated, cracks start to show in her facade, because deep down she knows what she's doing is wrong and feels tremendous guilt over it, but nonetheless still feels trapped into going through with the plans of TWSITD.

In Crimson Flower it's all a steady upward climb for her armies, so she proceeds with a more single-minded determination. This idea that what she is doing will be better for all in the long run, like a light at the end of the tunnel when she's through fulfilling the wishes of TWSITD, which the game takes great care to show are always keeping tabs on her in one form or another. Monica abruptly butting in on a conversation you're having with Edelgard on a sensitive topic. Arundel, at one point, even punishes her with javelin nukes for stepping slightly out of line during the Crimson Flower route, if anything just to flex some of their muscle. Letting her know they still owned her.

What I'm saying is that Edelgard strikes me as a cornered animal. She basically launches her campaign to stay in the good graces of the slitherers, centrally driven by the idea that by seizing complete control of Fodlan she can then perhaps exert some more control over her own destiny for a change, after being moved around from capital to capital, deprived of any true family (before her time at Garreg Mach<3), experimented on, and generally used as a pawn by TWS her whole life. For this I don't hate her; I pity her. I wish things could go differently, without resulting in her dying in such a hollow, unfulfilled state, even knowing it isn't possible not counting what I feel to be the extremely wrong outcome of Crimson Flower, yet I'm also glad that the developers didn't chicken out by providing it as an option. At least, not as an available option on release. However, now...

The thing I hope for the most out of future story DLC is, really, a new route where Edelgard can reach out to the other Lords for help before things get too extreme, and possibly redeem herself. A lot of what I've presented here is mere theory, so some more concrete insights into her deeper feelings and way of thinking would be most welcome in this hypothetical new route as well.

I know this isn't the place for it, but here's my hastily thrown together pitch: 😄 

Three promoted Lords in the party post-timeskip. Maybe a new, even larger threat, like...idunno, zombie dragons killed during the massacre at Zanado brought back by Rhea somehow, after she completely snaps at the very notion of Edelgard's redemption because of her flagrant similarities to Nemesis and her lingering bitterness over the desecration of the tomb, much like she does if you spare Edelgard in the Beagles route. With even Catherine, Seteth and Flayn (maaaaybe Cyril) determining she's in the wrong and joining your side to fight them. Also, give poor Flayn a unique Pegasus-mounted magic class, ty.~

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by TrueNoble
small clarity edit; meaning unchanged

[Eltoshen]

2 hours ago, PrincessAlyson said:

Agreed. In talks like these I see Rhea and Edelgard get flak for things that are similar. I don't think either of them have the moral high ground, but I do empathize with Rhea more because she's lost more: most of her species. She's desperate to return to happier days and honestly, can't blame her for that. I would've lost my mind if I came home to find my family and species dead and their bodies mutilated to make weapons of mass destruction.

Edelgard lost all 10 of her siblings to crest experimentation also, so don't forget that. She describes watching them all die and yet she's still in touch with humanity. Given, Rhea's so fucking old it might make sense why she doesn't experience emotions the same way humans do but then that begs the question - should the supreme ruler of the Church that governs the entire continent be a person who is out of touch with the reality of human life and their emotions?

Edited September 12, 2019 by Eltoshen

[Julian Solo]

1 hour ago, TrueNoble said:

There's a lot I've personally read into Edelgard's character, based on things I've noticed within cutscenes as well as gameplay. Some of what I'm about to present might be seen as leaps, especially when it comes to tying some observations of certain gameplay decisions made by the devs in with the wider narrative,  but as this is a video game and not a movie, I feel these observations are useful to take into consideration as well:

My core conceit is that Edelgard is, above all else, a tragic figure forced through reasons completely beyond her control down a bloody path. TWSITD used her, her entire family, in a bid for power over the continent. If she hadn't gone along with their wishes, they'd probably just as easily disposed of her as they did the rest of her family, or reduced to her a puppet monarch like her father and ruled that way. The way they used even one of their own, Kronya, then cast her aside so callously is a good example of what they could just as well do to Edelgard at any given moment. The way Kronya even begs the player for help in her final moments...is sort of reflective of Edelgard's final moments in non-BE runs, where she wishes she could have "walked" with the player. Seems her plan was to let them use her just long enough to be in a position where she could turn the tables on them, and destroy the institutions in place (i.e. crests, the church) that fueled the ideology behind their misdeeds. Or, perhaps this was just how she came to justify doing so to herself, as she was going to have to follow their orders anyway. The epilogue of Crimson Flower indeed mentions she takes the fight to them, but as it's been said earlier in this thread it doesn't outright say she is ever successful in fully defeating them.

This leads me to what I think is the main flaw of Edelgard's approach, in that she takes too much of this responsibility onto herself. Even Hubert, who actually does a lot of the heavy lifting for her,  which we see some evidence of in a letter he leaves behind on the Golden Deer route, does so mostly in secret, thus adding to her feeling like one pitted against the world, as the last survivor of her family that fell prey to TWSITD's cruel experiments. The one and only Flame Emperor cursed with deeper knowledge of TWSITD's existence. And this is something that's even directly brought up in the HubertxEdelgard Supports. Nemesis himself, I think, is shown as a kind of parallel to Edelgard, as this lone, powerful warrior that defied the Gods; a legend Edelgard strives to replicate, at her own peril. Which makes it all the more fitting that you fight him on the Golden Deer route, with Claude making the big, awesome friendship and unity speech in the final cutscene, since that's what ultimately rules the day. Not Dimitri, who pathetically dies like a wild dog off screen in that route. Not even Dedue going in alone to finish what Dimitri started, as I'll have you know I even paved the path for him to solo Edelgard, but the game itself literally does not allow him to drop her below 1 hp. Maybe this is true of NPCs when fighting any boss, but if not: Dedue LITERALLY cannot do it alone, and someone from your party needs to intervene. We see other NPCs land killing blows all the time, like Catherine when you first meet her, or Gilbert, or the Almyrans that briefly team up with you in Golden Deer, and yet it is specifically here, at such a pivotal moment, that Dedue cannot fulfill Dimitri's wishes all by himself...even though the designers have deliberately given him the stats that could allow him to do so if you try and let him.

I even think Edelgard's unique promoted Lord class serves a thematic purpose. She becomes an Armored Lord, as noticeably the only girl unit in the entire game with a penchant for Heavy Armor. Of course, there's the obvious draw from this that the heavy armor and indeed the whole flamboyant Flame Emperor persona is like a defense she has built around herself, but I also find it curious that this class was deliberately designed to not be able to cast Magic, even though Edelgard has such a strong Magic growth, near-premium (other than Lysithea) access to Black magic in her regular spell list, including Luna which perhaps not accidentally gives zero-recruit Beagles a much easier time in killing the Death Knight in his first appearance, and a fantastic budding talent in Reason on top of it. Almost as if...this facade, these walls around her, are holding her back from her full potential? And how standard Mages are generally more reliant on tankier allies to protect them.

Edelgard's fatal error was that she could have reached out to Dimitri and Claude, to form some kind of global unified front against TWSITD, but she doesn't. Edelgard deeply believes that the fate of mankind rests on her shoulders, and hers alone. Yet she knows what she is doing is wrong, and seems to always refrain from bloodying her own hands at every opportunity to further highlight this notion. See: her begging Byleth to kill her for the sake of peace in Golden Deer, her lamenting Dimitri's death in Crimson Flower as an unfortunate necessity to further her agenda, and, I think what is most important to note of all, the fact that in the BL route she doesn't stab Dimitri in the heart, or anywhere else that could seriously kill him when given the chance, but rather goes well out of her way to rise from her fallen position to stab him in the shoulder. She could have EASILY killed him there, using the dagger to carve her path as was said, but consciously did not...rather it seemed she just wanted to force him to kill her, to put an end to her brutal campaign, same as she begs Byleth to in Golden Deer. The instant she's defeated, cracks start to show in her facade, because deep down she knows what she's doing is wrong and feels tremendous guilt over it, but nonetheless still feels trapped into going through with the plans of TWSITD.

In Crimson Flower it's all a steady upward climb for her armies, so she proceeds with a more single-minded determination. This idea that what she is doing will be better for all in the long run, like a light at the end of the tunnel when she's through fulfilling the wishes of TWSITD, which the game takes great care to show are always keeping tabs on her in one form or another. Monica abruptly butting in on a conversation you're having with Edelgard on a sensitive topic. Arundel, at one point, even punishes her with javelin nukes for stepping slightly out of line during the Crimson Flower route, if anything just to flex some of their muscle. Letting her know they still owned her.

What I'm saying is that Edelgard strikes me as a cornered animal. She basically launches her campaign to stay in the good graces of the slitherers, centrally driven by the idea that by seizing complete control of Fodlan she can then perhaps exert some more control over her own destiny for a change, after being moved around from capital to capital, deprived of any true family (before her time at Garreg Mach<3), experimented on, and generally used as a pawn by TWS her whole life. For this I don't hate her; I pity her. I wish things could go differently, without resulting in her dying in such a hollow, unfulfilled state, even knowing it isn't possible not counting what I feel to be the extremely wrong outcome of Crimson Flower, yet I'm also glad that the developers didn't chicken out by providing it as an option. At least, not as an available option on release. However, now...

The thing I hope for the most out of future story DLC is, really, a new route where Edelgard can reach out to the other Lords for help before things get too extreme, and possibly redeem herself. A lot of what I've presented here is mere theory, so some more concrete insights into her deeper feelings and way of thinking would be most welcome in this hypothetical new route as well.

I know this isn't the place for it, but here's my hastily thrown together pitch: 😄 

Three promoted Lords in the party post-timeskip. Maybe a new, even larger threat, like...idunno, zombie dragons killed during the massacre at Zanado brought back by Rhea somehow, after she completely snaps at the very notion of Edelgard's redemption because of her flagrant similarities to Nemesis and her lingering bitterness over the desecration of the tomb, much like she does if you spare Edelgard in the Beagles route. With even Catherine, Seteth and Flayn (maaaaybe Cyril) determining she's in the wrong and joining your side to fight them. Also, give poor Flayn a unique Pegasus-mounted magic class, ty.~

 

Yeah that's Edelgards character a corned animal.

[Timlugia]

One thing I wanted to point out is that many people claimed that Silver Snow is basically status quo ending, but that's clearly not true if people paid attention in the conversation

Just right after Rhea being rescued, Seteth demands that the people needs to know the truth of everything: the truth about crests, church and the dragons, which Rhea agrees. Then you fought Rhea in her dragon form in front of the church, likely witness by everyone there, students, soldiers, merchants, civilians... so that Rhea's true identity has been known by the people as well regardless if she has announce it already.

 

Even though Byleth took over the church while Rhea remains archbishop (assume you S supports her), it's not the same church anymore. All the lies and secrets have now been laid bare in the public. Hence probably why ending texts states Byleth, Seteth and Rhea were reforming the church.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Timlugia

[PrincessAlyson]

2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

One thing I wanted to point out is that many people claimed that Silver Snow is basically status quo ending, but that's clearly not true if people paid attention in the conversation

Just right after Rhea being rescued, Seteth demands that the people needs to know the truth of everything: the truth about crests, church and the dragons, which Rhea agrees. Then you fought Rhea in her dragon form in front of the church, likely witness by everyone there, students, soldiers, merchants, civilians... so that regardlessm Rhea's true identity has been known by the people as well.

 

Even though Byleth took over the church while Rhea remains archbishop (assume you S supports her), it's not the same church anymore. All the lies and secrets have now been laid bare in the public. Hence probably why ending texts states Byleth, Seteth and Rhea were reforming the church.

Yes. All of the routes have some sort of change that leads to a golden age. That's why I'm honestly in the camp that none of the main characters are "right" or "wrong" and that applying such simple terms to any of them devalues their intentions and characterizations.

I have plenty of criticisms for both Edelgard and Rhea but their flaws add to what makes them good characters IMO. Their losses fuel their goals and that makes for some good storytelling. Having either of them fit into perfect "hero" or "villain" roles would be a waste. Rhea even admits that she hasn't been doing as well as she wanted and is perfectly content in handing over her authority to the player character. She outright states at one point that she's a proxy leader for Sothis, who she says could rule much better. Well, failing to get Sothis back, she entrusts the monastery to you during the battle for the school on non-Crimson Flower routes and then at the end of Azure Moon (completely giving over her authority to the Avatar) and Silver Snow (to an extent, like you said).

[Julian Solo]

3 hours ago, Timlugia said:

One thing I wanted to point out is that many people claimed that Silver Snow is basically status quo ending, but that's clearly not true if people paid attention in the conversation

Just right after Rhea being rescued, Seteth demands that the people needs to know the truth of everything: the truth about crests, church and the dragons, which Rhea agrees. Then you fought Rhea in her dragon form in front of the church, likely witness by everyone there, students, soldiers, merchants, civilians... so that Rhea's true identity has been known by the people as well regardless if she has announce it already.

 

Even though Byleth took over the church while Rhea remains archbishop (assume you S supports her), it's not the same church anymore. All the lies and secrets have now been laid bare in the public. Hence probably why ending texts states Byleth, Seteth and Rhea were reforming the church.

Byleth spreads a theocracy who thinks it was the status quo?

[Landmaster]

Edelgard is in the wrong and irredeemable for me. She is simply too self-righteous in believing that she is right and her way is the best way for everyone and anyone who doesn't agree gets the axe. Just because you have a tragic backstory doesn't give you the excuse to do all of the things she did. Trying to kill of Dimitri and Claude, Flayn's kidnapping, turning innocent students and people into Demonic Beasts, literally invading other innocent territories in a 5 year long war, and working with TWSITD in general leave me with very little to no sympathy for her. She comes across as having a dictator complex and the fact that she's actually wrong about a lot of the things she accuses the church of doesn't make it any better. She may think she has good intentions but her execution is horrible and I cannot see justification in her actions.

Rhea is clearly wrong about lying about the history of Crests and Relics and her attempts to revive her mother by using people as vessels, but as a whole, Rhea does relatively little that I'd classify as evil. She lied to prevent another tragedy and protect her family's remains.. The Western Church members threatened her life, so while it clearly brutal to execute them as she did, it's not like she had no reason for it. IIRC, we have not seen Rhea kill anyone blindly (outside of CF), it was always someone who presented a threat to the Church. As for the Crests and Nobility mess itself, that was largely the fault of the Nobility and not Rhea herself. Could she have done more to stop it? Debatable. Maybe, maybe not. But is she directly responsible for people living shitty lives because of greedy nobles? Hardly, IMO. Rhea definitely is not innocent or perfect but I wouldn't chalk up anything she does as inherently evil. And at the very end of the day, she tells the truth and acknowledges what she did was wrong.

[Timlugia]

1 hour ago, Julian Solo said:

Byleth spreads a theocracy who thinks it was the status quo?

Clearly quite a few people out there thinking that church wasn't overthrown = status quo

[Julian Solo]

1 hour ago, Timlugia said:

Clearly quite a few people out there thinking that church wasn't overthrown = status quo

Well that's wrong clearly wrong as its said Byleth changes things anyway in every route.

@Landmaster they weren't humans they where homunculus who all failed to become real people accept Byleths mother. Who begged Rhea to save Byleth. Rhea has basically done nothing wrong out of CF and seeing how bad Marriane family was treated when there family wasn't whitewashed yeah. She killed a few prinonsers who tried to kill her without a trail so evlols.

[Ivan Tridelan]

Edelgard is probably more in the wrong, suffering from a few critical issues that while understandable ultimately lead her down a dark path

1) Unable to trust others, which severely limits her options. Namely, unless Byelth reaches out to her, she winds up forced to rely on TWS. This also means she feels she needs to do things herself, which ultimately leads to a "join me or get out of my way" sort of approach.

2) Her shortened lifespan leads to a need for immediate action and results, and this rushed nature combined with the fact that the status quo has been in place for centuries leads her to the decision for the quickest, most drastic change: War. Point 1 means she lacks allies in this war she could have potentially had. Point 2 makes her look like the bad guy in the eyes of most of Fodlan.

 

Rhea pre-game is really only guilty of complicity through inaction. Assuming the attempts at reviving Sothis were homunculi and not humans, she does not do anything explicitly evil, and the lies regarding Fodlan's history have readily justifiable reasoning behind them.

 

About mid-way through part 1, Hubert tells Edelgard she's being too open with Byleth and decides to take things into his own hands, and she says something (forget exact wording) along the lines of "without allies I have no other options. Is it really wrong to reach out to Byleth?" Personally, I think Edelgard should have reached out to Byleth just before the events of the Holy Tomb (path split point). At this point she has little to lose by doing so (her army is already mobilizing and ready to go, she only sacrifices the ill-fated attack on the tomb) and doesn't blind-side the one person she wants on her side (who also has little reason to trust the FE's motives at this point), so here she'll reveal in private to him her identity, and full disclosure on TWS. If you mix this with Rhea seeing Byleth at this point as being the new Sothis (perhaps previously revealing that Sothis is now conscious inside him) and you potentially open up the mythical golden route: Byleth acts as link between Rhea and Edelgard, Rhea reveals the true history of Fodlan (remember, Edelgard has had Arundel call Nemesis a "thief", contradicting her family's version of the story) to the 3 lords. Dmitri will be on board the moment he learns TWS are behind Duscur. Claude is a bit trickier, he wants the truth (which he's getting here) and opening Fodlan's borders (not sure how Rhea will take that, but if Byleth and thus Mama Sothis is on board, she'll be as well). The 3 houses unite with the Church against TWS (who as far as Fodlan is concerned are the evildoers here. Arundel/Thales takes over the Empire in response to Edelgard's betrayal and attacks the monastery anyways. Stuff still happens, monastery still falls, Byleth sleeps for 5 years. Rhea and the 3 lords take their supporters and organize pockets of resistance (to avoid just getting wrecked by Javelins of Light all at once), reunite in monastery in remembrance of promise. Byleth returns and we have 3 lords and playable Rhea to take on Arundel's new Empire. We probably get Ladislava, Randolph and Fleche from CF (Fleche should be playable in CF anyways IMO; same for Judith in GD), Gilbert and Rodrigue from AM and Judith and Nader from VW routes, and if you say that's too many playable characters, well guess what? Almost every FE has had too many characters and you get to pick your favorites. This way would be more like traditional clear good and bad, with innocents caught in between, classic FE play.

[Landmaster]

9 hours ago, Julian Solo said:

@Landmaster they weren't humans they where homunculus who all failed to become real people accept Byleths mother. Who begged Rhea to save Byleth. Rhea has basically done nothing wrong out of CF and seeing how bad Marriane family was treated when there family wasn't whitewashed yeah. She killed a few prinonsers who tried to kill her without a trail so evlols.

I know they weren't normally born humans, I'm saying the intent was still that they would become vessels. I'd argue against "Rhea did nothing wrong outside of CF", though. She still did wrong things, but as I said, nothing I'd chalk up to inherently evil.