HOT TAKE: Elise better than Camilla?

[KaiserKrieg]

Now here me out on this one guys! I acknowledge that Camilla is Haar: Conquest Edition, but Elise has potential to be on her level overall in terms of utility. I’ve been replaying Conquest recently and found myself thinking that Cam and Elise are comparable in terms of power level; albeit that they fulfill two entirely different roles, they are both overwhelmingly the best at them and are both available for most of the Conquest route. What do you guys think?

Edited September 8, 2019 by KaiserKrieg
Wanted to enable notifications but can’t :(

[Eltosian Kadath]

I get where you are coming from, if you know what you are doing with Elise's personal skill, it will let you accomplish amazing things in Conquest, and there are a lot of places where the magic nuking of a promoted Elise is the best solution to an otherwise thorny problem. Its hard to compare as they fill roles as different as apples and oranges. Both of them are extremely good, and the best at their roles like you said, but it takes actual thought to use Elise well, while it doesn't to use Camilla well, and that skill barrier to get the most out of Elise shouldn't be ignored. I think Camilla's insane level lead, and too small of internal level that lets her maintain said lead still gives her that little bit of an edge above Elise.

[Dayni]

Elise is the better magic user imo. Camilla is more complete, but Elise is possibly the best unpromoted unit in Fates and can do more with some items than Camilla.

Elise is also best Fates royal don't @ me.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Dayni

[eclipse]

Elise gets more utility because staffbot.  But for outright magic nuking?  That's Ophelia, as long as her mom isn't Beruka or something.

[Fates-Blade]

The children are normally better then the parents in Fates, but concerning Elise and Camilla, the problem with Elise is she's really weak to start, and her growth rates are aimed at attacking magical units, while Camilla is a jack of all trades master of none, what I like about Elise is she has something she's really good at, what I don't like about Camilla is what I mentioned before, so yeah Elise might be better, but Camilla has good uses too.

[Thinks Their Own Way]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

But for outright magic nuking?  That's Ophelia

That is especially true if Elise is her mother.

 

3 hours ago, Dayni said:

Elise is also best Fates royal don't @ me.

They hated him, for he told the truth.

Playing Conquest on Classic made apperciate high defense characters and Elise goes splat of a physical unit stares in her direction. But Elise's healing, personal skill, demoiselle (for male units) and inspiration makes those defensive characters more defensive. Elise is probably the best support unit in Conquest.

[Florete]

Camilla is better than Haar tbh.

[eclipse]

On 9/8/2019 at 5:53 PM, Florete said:

Camilla is better than Haar tbh.

Yep.  Haar can't decide whether he wants to hit Def or Res without heavily specialized weaponry, and I'm not sure how viable he is if you benched him for the first five chapters after he joins.

[starburst]

For over a year now, I have been playing Conquest with a smaller party (ten units), no "backpacks" and no pre-promoted units. Two things that I learned through these campaigns were to set defined roles to the party members and to find substitutes for the roles played by the banned units.

Elise has great availability, overkill Magic, Luck and Speed, defensive auras and Rally Resistance, high mobility and can use Dragon Veins. She can also easily dip into Malig Knight for a couple of levels and learn offensive skills and +Mov through Lunge.

Camilla has great availability, high offensive growths and decent defensive ones, high mobility and Lunge, an offensive aura and access to Rally Defence, fast access to Berserker and Hero, and can also use Dragon Veins.
Her DNA is irreplaceable. I give you that.

That being said, I find it easier to replace Camilla than Elise. Sure, I was "forced" to find alternatives for Camilla since pre-promoted units were banned, but her role in the party is actually easier to replace.

For me, Camilla plays the role of a "second liner", a unit not as sturdy as the front liner but with synergy with it, and who may take the lead at a certain point and hold selective Enemy Phases. Like most other units at the front, she seldom one-hits and may not one-round many enemies, but her main task is to help hold a position one turn and allow the party to reorganise in order to wipe the area on Player Phase.
Usual substitutes of Camilla are anything-Sophie, Effie, Wyvern Selena and anything-Velouria. And the usual front liners (Cornflakes and Silas) can always play her role, by definition.
Percy and Cavalier Arthur can also replace Camilla, but I do not use them often. And then are Beruka and Paladin Jakob, whom I just ignore.

Camilla is indeed a better unit than most of her "replacements" (and even Percy and some Velouria builds only tie her.) It is her role within a ten-units party what can be successfully replaced. And I have completed over a dozen campaigns on Hard and Lunatic without her.

Elise on the other hand is the healer (not the main healer, but the only one), the status staves user, the Aura Girl and another Delete Button. Her Magic is overkill, yeah, but grants her a TNT hand, greater heals and the highest success chance for staves, specially Entrap.
Felicia has no bases and worse growths than Elise, even if early re-classed as a Strategist. It may seem irrelevant early in the game, but it is crucial later on. Some builds of Forrest and Ophelia work, but Forrest shows up around Chapter 20, so good luck playing that long without a healer; and by the time Ophelia is available (around Chapter 12), Elise is already a L17/1 Strategist working on her A-rank in Staves. (Besides, Ophelia has more interesting things to bomb do.) Multiple staff units work too, say, two Adventurers instead of Elise. But units promote around Chapter 16. Meantime?
In my experience, Anna is Elise's best replacement in almost every sense bar Dragon Vein use and aura; specially when re-classed as a Troubadour by Chapter 9.
Keep in mind that with only ten units, staff users must be very efficient and must contribute to the bombing, or your party will not be able to march on.

As I said, I find it easier to replace Camilla than Elise. At least on a ten-units party.

[Dr. C]

On 9/14/2019 at 3:27 PM, starburst said:

For over a year now, I have been playing Conquest with a smaller party (ten units), no "backpacks" and no pre-promoted units. Two things that I learned through these campaigns were to set defined roles to the party members and to find substitutes for the roles played by the banned units.

Elise has great availability, overkill Magic, Luck and Speed, defensive auras and Rally Resistance, high mobility and can use Dragon Veins. She can also easily dip into Malig Knight for a couple of levels and learn offensive skills and +Mov through Lunge.

Camilla has great availability, high offensive growths and decent defensive ones, high mobility and Lunge, an offensive aura and access to Rally Defence, fast access to Berserker and Hero, and can also use Dragon Veins.
Her DNA is irreplaceable. I give you that.

That being said, I find it easier to replace Camilla than Elise. Sure, I was "forced" to find alternatives for Camilla since pre-promoted units were banned, but her role in the party is actually easier to replace.

For me, Camilla plays the role of a "second liner", a unit not as sturdy as the front liner but with synergy with it, and who may take the lead at a certain point and hold selective Enemy Phases. Like most other units at the front, she seldom one-hits and may not one-round many enemies, but her main task is to help hold a position one turn and allow the party to reorganise in order to wipe the area on Player Phase.
Usual substitutes of Camilla are anything-Sophie, Effie, Wyvern Selena and anything-Velouria. And the usual front liners (Cornflakes and Silas) can always play her role, by definition.
Percy and Cavalier Arthur can also replace Camilla, but I do not use them often. And then are Beruka and Paladin Jakob, whom I just ignore.

Camilla is indeed a better unit than most of her "replacements" (and even Percy and some Velouria builds only tie her.) It is her role within a ten-units party what can be successfully replaced. And I have completed over a dozen campaigns on Hard and Lunatic without her.

Elise on the other hand is the healer (not the main healer, but the only one), the status staves user, the Aura Girl and another Delete Button. Her Magic is overkill, yeah, but grants her a TNT hand, greater heals and the highest success chance for staves, specially Entrap.
Felicia has no bases and worse growths than Elise, even if early re-classed as a Strategist. It may seem irrelevant early in the game, but it is crucial later on. Some builds of Forrest and Ophelia work, but Forrest shows up around Chapter 20, so good luck playing that long without a healer; and by the time Ophelia is available (around Chapter 12), Elise is already a L17/1 Strategist working on her A-rank in Staves. (Besides, Ophelia has more interesting things to bomb do.) Multiple staff units work too, say, two Adventurers instead of Elise. But units promote around Chapter 16. Meantime?
In my experience, Anna is Elise's best replacement in almost every sense bar Dragon Vein use and aura; specially when re-classed as a Troubadour by Chapter 9.
Keep in mind that with only ten units, staff users must be very efficient and must contribute to the bombing, or your party will not be able to march on.

As I said, I find it easier to replace Camilla than Elise. At least on a ten-units party.

Never would have thought early prompting Elise would be a good idea but now that I have to think about it after your post I’m actually kind of intrigued. She DOES have the magic to kill things by then and it would be nice to take advantage of the larger experience gains she would get prepromoted but would it be enough to get Ophelia a decent skill inheritance reasonably early? 

Also, regarding Felicia, skill grinding has to count for something. She will be a terrible physical fighter yes but a unit with early breaker skills (Bad physical unit she may be but then there’s also Bowbreaker...) who also gives a child one has to have its merits. I know my Dwyer in Conquest Lunatic appreciates Jakob giving him early access to Armored Blow. (Though I wonder sometimes if Aegis would have been better.) 

Speaking of Jakob, if you utilize any DLC the support build he can offer from Male exclusive Lodestar and Grandmaster skills Combined plus  Inspiriatiion can lend itself to some interesting versatility on beefing up Corrin. You can utilize an attack stance approach and still get defensive and offensive buffs or you can pair up and stack his personal skill with a Dual Guard Up for hilarious results.  It takes 10 levels to get the full Swiss Army knife going but it would balance out leveling Elise up from scratch with no skill grinding available. 

[starburst]

On 9/28/2019 at 11:00 AM, Dr. C said:

Never would have thought early prompting Elise would be a good idea but now that I have to think about it after your post I’m actually kind of intrigued. She DOES have the magic to kill things by then and it would be nice to take advantage of the larger experience gains she would get prepromoted but would it be enough to get Ophelia a decent skill inheritance reasonably early?

Elise can be promoted at L15 or L17 without problems. The key is to have her heal on every turn since her recruitment. I promote her before Ch 13 (for she trivialises the west side), but it will depend on your play style (or whether or not you have access to at least one early paralogue and give her extra Experience gains through healing.)

I am of the opinion that +Mag Cornflakes is Ophelia's best mother, and pass Dragon Fang. But since I only recruit the children which are available early (say, by Ch 14), I actually do not care about skill inheritance. I value early availability way over skills; I prefer to have my units for as many chapters as possible.
And Ophelia's innate skill pool is already overpowered. If there is one child who does not care about the skills from her mother, it is her.

 

On 9/28/2019 at 11:00 AM, Dr. C said:

Also, regarding Felicia, skill grinding has to count for something. She will be a terrible physical fighter yes but a unit with early breaker skills (Bad physical unit she may be but then there’s also Bowbreaker...) who also gives a child one has to have its merits [...]

Speaking of Jakob, if you utilize any DLC the support build he can offer from Male exclusive Lodestar and Grandmaster skills Combined plus  Inspiriatiion can lend itself to some interesting versatility on beefing up Corrin [...]

I might agree with some of your arguments, but you are missing the point here. The thing is not whether Felicia or Jakob are better units than Elise, but whether or not they can substitute her role (the one healer) on a ten-units party. Again, even if Felicia passes better skills to her children, it is irrelevant to the role which I am trying to replace.
Felicia, certainly more than Jakob, can work as the healer in your party, but Elise is just better at everything in that role. Moreover, and what I am trying to argue here, Elise is so good at it that it is difficult to find an equal replacement for her in a smaller party.

[Dr. C]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

Elise can be promoted at L15 or L17 without problems. The key is to have her heal on every turn since her recruitment. I promote her before Ch 13 (for she trivialises the west side), but it will depend on your play style (or whether or not you have access to at least one early paralogue and give her extra Experience gains through healing.)

I am of the opinion that +Mag Cornflakes is Ophelia's best mother, and pass Dragon Fang. But since I only recruit the children which are available early (say, by Ch 14), I actually do not care about skill inheritance. I value early availability way over skills; I prefer to have my units for as many chapters as possible.
And Ophelia's innate skill pool is already overpowered. If there is one child who does not care about the skills from her mother, it is her.

 

I might agree with some of your arguments, but you are missing the point here. The thing is not whether Felicia or Jakob are better units than Elise, but whether or not they can substitute her role (the one healer) on a ten-units party. Again, even if Felicia passes better skills to her children, it is irrelevant to the role which I am trying to replace.
Felicia, certainly more than Jakob, can work as the healer in your party, but Elise is just better at everything in that role. Moreover, and what I am trying to argue here, Elise is so good at it that it is difficult to find an equal replacement for her in a smaller party.

Sakura XD 

kidding since you’re arguing Conquest but Quiet Stength is a lot  easier to use than Lily's Poise..

 

[Shadow Mir]

On 9/28/2019 at 9:00 AM, Dr. C said:

Never would have thought early prompting Elise would be a good idea but now that I have to think about it after your post I’m actually kind of intrigued. She DOES have the magic to kill things by then and it would be nice to take advantage of the larger experience gains she would get prepromoted but would it be enough to get Ophelia a decent skill inheritance reasonably early? 

Um.... Probably not! About the only noteworthy skill she could pass down is Inspiration - and I'd sooner recommend marrying Odin to Felicia for that (unless you don't mind having Ophelia for like three chapters at most, that is).

On 9/14/2019 at 5:27 PM, starburst said:

For over a year now, I have been playing Conquest with a smaller party (ten units), no "backpacks" and no pre-promoted units. Two things that I learned through these campaigns were to set defined roles to the party members and to find substitutes for the roles played by the banned units.

Elise has great availability, overkill Magic, Luck and Speed, defensive auras and Rally Resistance, high mobility and can use Dragon Veins. She can also easily dip into Malig Knight for a couple of levels and learn offensive skills and +Mov through Lunge.

Camilla has great availability, high offensive growths and decent defensive ones, high mobility and Lunge, an offensive aura and access to Rally Defence, fast access to Berserker and Hero, and can also use Dragon Veins.
Her DNA is irreplaceable. I give you that.

That being said, I find it easier to replace Camilla than Elise. Sure, I was "forced" to find alternatives for Camilla since pre-promoted units were banned, but her role in the party is actually easier to replace.

For me, Camilla plays the role of a "second liner", a unit not as sturdy as the front liner but with synergy with it, and who may take the lead at a certain point and hold selective Enemy Phases. Like most other units at the front, she seldom one-hits and may not one-round many enemies, but her main task is to help hold a position one turn and allow the party to reorganise in order to wipe the area on Player Phase.
Usual substitutes of Camilla are anything-Sophie, Effie, Wyvern Selena and anything-Velouria. And the usual front liners (Cornflakes and Silas) can always play her role, by definition.
Percy and Cavalier Arthur can also replace Camilla, but I do not use them often. And then are Beruka and Paladin Jakob, whom I just ignore.

Camilla is indeed a better unit than most of her "replacements" (and even Percy and some Velouria builds only tie her.) It is her role within a ten-units party what can be successfully replaced. And I have completed over a dozen campaigns on Hard and Lunatic without her.

Elise on the other hand is the healer (not the main healer, but the only one), the status staves user, the Aura Girl and another Delete Button. Her Magic is overkill, yeah, but grants her a TNT hand, greater heals and the highest success chance for staves, specially Entrap.
Felicia has no bases and worse growths than Elise, even if early re-classed as a Strategist. It may seem irrelevant early in the game, but it is crucial later on. Some builds of Forrest and Ophelia work, but Forrest shows up around Chapter 20, so good luck playing that long without a healer; and by the time Ophelia is available (around Chapter 12), Elise is already a L17/1 Strategist working on her A-rank in Staves. (Besides, Ophelia has more interesting things to bomb do.) Multiple staff units work too, say, two Adventurers instead of Elise. But units promote around Chapter 16. Meantime?
In my experience, Anna is Elise's best replacement in almost every sense bar Dragon Vein use and aura; specially when re-classed as a Troubadour by Chapter 9.
Keep in mind that with only ten units, staff users must be very efficient and must contribute to the bombing, or your party will not be able to march on.

As I said, I find it easier to replace Camilla than Elise. At least on a ten-units party.

I don't really care about challenges and all that jazz, but frankly, most of my strategies wouldn't work without Camilla, largely because she's about the only good flying unit in the game without reclassing shenanigans (and literally the only good axe user in Conquest period). Rally Defense access and her personal help.

[Classic]

On 9/9/2019 at 5:53 AM, Florete said:

Camilla is better than Haar tbh.

Is that actually still an argument people are having? Or is it just a meme?

[Florete]

8 minutes ago, Classic said:

Is that actually still an argument people are having? Or is it just a meme?

I wasn't aware it was an argument people were once having in the first place.

[Classic]

9 minutes ago, Florete said:

I wasn't aware it was an argument people were once having in the first place.

This Haar vs Camilla thing might have started as a joke, I don't know, but I've seen way too many people having actual, serious discussions about it. I'm glad that seems to be a minority then.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Classic

[eclipse]

Thank you for reminding me that this topic is in the wrong place. . .which would be a technical necro, thanks to where I'm gonna move it.

That being said, both Haar and Camilla think that the argument over who is better is silly.  Haar would rather take a nap, and Camilla has better things to do with her time than deal with people who hate her for some petty reason or another.