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If we're going to apply Smogon usage tiers to Endgame Classes, how would you tier them?


Jayvee94
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How would you tier Endgame Classes  

32 members have voted

  1. 1. Uber

    • Falcon Knight
      20
    • Wyvern Lord
      31
    • Mortal Savant
      0
    • Great Knight
      0
    • Bow Knight
      23
    • Dark Knight
      7
    • Holy Knight
      1
    • War Master
      4
    • Gremory
      7
    • Hero
      0
    • Swordmaster
      0
    • Assassin
      0
    • Fortress Knight
      0
    • Paladin
      1
    • Wyvern Rider
      1
    • Warrior
      0
    • Sniper
      0
    • Grappler
      0
    • Warlock
      0
    • Dark Bishop
      0
    • Bishop
      0
    • Dancer
      16
  2. 2. Overused

    • Falcon Knight
      8
    • Wyvern Lord
      2
    • Mortal Savant
      4
    • Great Knight
      4
    • Bow Knight
      11
    • Dark Knight
      17
    • Holy Knight
      9
    • War Master
      14
    • Gremory
      22
    • Hero
      2
    • Swordmaster
      6
    • Assassin
      16
    • Fortress Knight
      0
    • Paladin
      15
    • Wyvern Rider
      11
    • Warrior
      3
    • Sniper
      8
    • Grappler
      5
    • Warlock
      4
    • Dark Bishop
      3
    • Bishop
      7
    • Dancer
      9
  3. 3. Underused

    • Falcon Knight
      2
    • Wyvern Lord
      0
    • Mortal Savant
      21
    • Great Knight
      18
    • Bow Knight
      0
    • Dark Knight
      5
    • Holy Knight
      13
    • War Master
      9
    • Gremory
      2
    • Hero
      21
    • Swordmaster
      16
    • Assassin
      9
    • Fortress Knight
      17
    • Paladin
      6
    • Wyvern Rider
      9
    • Warrior
      17
    • Sniper
      13
    • Grappler
      17
    • Warlock
      17
    • Dark Bishop
      19
    • Bishop
      13
    • Dancer
      3


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The goal of this poll is to provide other players a challenge by pointing out which classes to ban to add difficulty.

Here are the interesting effects for the Black Eagles (using the votes as of this edit):

  • Hubert: Dark Knight (Uber), Dark Knight (OU), Dark Bishop (UU)
  • Dorothea: Dancer (Uber), Gremory (OU), Warlock (UU)
  • Ferdinand: Wyvern Lord (Uber), Paladin (OU), Great Knight (UU)
  • Bernadetta: Bow Knight (Uber), Sniper (OU), Pegasus Knight (UU)
  • Caspar: Wyvern Lord (Uber), War Master (OU), Warrior (UU)
  • Petra: Wyvern Lord (Uber), Assassin (OU), Swordmaster (UU)
  • Linhardt: Bishop (Uber), Bishop (OU), Holy Knight (UU)
Edited by Jayvee94
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Uber Tier:

  • Wyvern Lord: It has been like this since the game launched. Great growths and bases across the board, high movement, flying utility... what more can be said?
  • Falcon Knight: Like Wyvern Lord, but trades strength and bulk for more speed and actual resistance. But Wyvern Lord is better because most magical enemies are not that dangerous.
  • Bow Knight: Same Movement as the above, but trades growths for r a n g e with Bows.
  • Dancer: Pump movement boosters into this thing (Shoes of the Wind, March Ring) and they will have unrivaled supportive utility. Without it, I think they can be considered overused.

Overused:

  • Dark Knight: High Movement with magic access when most enemies have less Res than Prt.
  • War Master: Solid af growths, base skills, and bases. And average-but-Not-bad movement. And the best Mastery Skill in the game.
  • Gremory: Mage option with best movement outside of Horse mages, as well as doubled-up uses in all spells (which can raise supportive utility).
  • Assassin: Best Sword Class by far. Best growths and best Movement (tied with Mortal Savant, but we’ll get to that later). Also encourages Bow usage.
  • Paladin: Only viable final horse class with Lancefaire, and encourage growth in that weapon so that Sylvain and Ferdinand in particular can learn Swift Strikes quickly. Also movement.
  • Wyvern Rider: Weaker Wyvern Lord. No speed growth boost, either.
  • Sniper: Still has neato range, and has exclusive access to Hunter’s Volley.
  • Grappler: Same Movement as War Master, but with lesser stats. Still nice.

Underused:

  • Mortal Savant: Guts Speed growth, and its attempt at being a hybrid class is a bit underwhelming, as per usual for these kinds of classes.
  • Great Knight: Good Movement, but not great movement. Also has pretty big requirements where both movement skills needed do not account for much until a rank above the required level. Stats are not the best either.
  • Holy Knight: Sacrifices more healing and support magic uses for the worst faire in the game. Still has nice movement, but I dunno. It is outclassed hard by DK.
  • Hero: Nice growths, but low movement compared to everything else. And Vantage is situational at best alone.
  • Swordmaster: Similar to Hero, but better. Still not too good on the movement side of things.
  • Fortress Knight: Low Movement and stats only good for tanking physical hits. Which some will be enough to deal large damage anyway, as far as I have heard. Archer bait.
  • Warrior: Inferior growths, bases, and movement compared to every other Axe-wielding class and the Grappler.
  • Warlock: A fringe option for Dorothea at best, but still have bad movement.
  • Dark Bishop: Similar to the above, but only Hubert can reap its benefits.
  • Bishop: Only viable for Linhardt and maybe Manuela, and not much else.
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Surprised more people aren't putting Bow Knight in Uber.  Every physical unit I have either winds up as a Bow Knight or Flier, there's little reason ever not to.  I'd say Bow Knight is almost Anything Goes Tier.

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21 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Surprised more people aren't putting Bow Knight in Uber.  Every physical unit I have either winds up as a Bow Knight or Flier, there's little reason ever not to.  I'd say Bow Knight is almost Anything Goes Tier.

We don't have that many classes that warrant additional tiers. Besides, Bow Knight isn't really Mega-Rayquaza levels OP.

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Uber: Objectively the best classes in the game

  • Wyvern Lord/ Falcon Knight: The justification for both is similar; fliers are completely ridiculous in this game. I would give Wyvern a slightly higher score because it has better all around class modifiers and is more accessible, but Falcon Knight does have significantly higher Resistance. Generally, this isn't that important, but certain lategame maps (like BL Chapter 22) have enough mages that they have a niche Wyvern Lord does not. 
  • Dancer: Giving any unit another turn is understandably strong, and they are by far the best users of Movement boosters because it benefits your entire team to have a high Move dancer. Not much to say on this one. 
  • Bow Knight: I think this one is slightly closer to OU, but 4 range and 8 Move (likely 9 with an A+ in Riding) is very, very strong. Their only weakness are Hit penalties, but Linked Attacks make Hit fairly easy to patch up, not to mention Hit +20 from Archer. 

OU: Not as dominant as Ubers, but they have a strong niche that very few other classes can fulfill.

  • Dark Knight: The most mobile mage class. Every other Reason class struggles to keep up and continue to deal damage outside of the first few turns. If you have a mage with limited to no utility in their Faith spell list, then there's really no reason to do otherwise. 
  • Paladin: The best lance class in the game for males. Has high Movement, good stat Mods, and a pretty decent Mastery skill. It requires far less investment than many other mounted options which can open up quicker progression in Authority to access more powerful Battalions. 
  • War Master: By far the highest peak damage class in the game and monster slayers of the highest order. 6 Movement drops it far below Uber, but there is a real niche for War Masters that no other class can easily fulfill. Good enough to have at least one on your team, but I wouldn't go any higher than that. 
  • Assassin: 6 Movement is just good enough to make it as a combat unit, but Assassin's main draw is Stealth. Essentially, any enemy who could attack another unit will not attack the Assassin. This helps immensely as they are units who actually aren't too concerning to have on the frontlines despite their poor bulk. Similar to Paladins, they also are relatively low investment, making Authority easier to accumulate ranks in. They also have Locktouch which is a minor point of utility in their favor as well. 
  • Gremory/Bishop: I think Gremory is actually very close to UU because most of the relevant points in its favor over Dark Knight (x2 on Faith Spells) are also on Bishop as well. Although it does have higher magic damage in comparison, 5 Movement is not exactly going to give Gremories many opportunities to use it. Essentially, you gain 1 point of movement and lose +10 on all of your healing spells. Gremory is basically the middleground between the two, but it doesn't really excel at either healing or damage. 

UU: Every class in this tier has limited usage compared to most other viable classes in some way. 

  • Holy Knight: They don't have White Magic Uses x2. That alone is enough to knock them down a tier despite higher Movement. The best healers in this game have Physic and/or Fortify. In most cases, those healers don't need Move to use it. Having high Movement would be good for Warp users, but since they lose out on a usage of it, it ends up not really being worth it. On top of this, Faith offensive spells are generally heavier and worse than their Reason counterparts, so Holy Knight is a jack of all trades and master of none in terms of magic classes. 
  • Great Knight: They are supposed to be tanks, but they are almost always doubled. To get there, most units will have to suffer through the Armored classes which are even more terrible. They have Axefaire and Lancefaire, but only one of them has a weapon type that is actually required to reach this class. Armor rank skills are not bad, but Smite is pretty much a worse Reposition which you get from mastering a Beginner class. Weight -3 is useless when you have no Speed. If you want an Axe class, go Wyvern or War Master. If you want a Lance class, go Paladin. Great Knights are just bad, end of story.
  • Mortal Savant: This class is just bad. Any strictly offensive magic unit would rather be a Dark Knight for 2 more Move and Canto. Compared to Assassin, Mortal Savant gets a measly 1 Speed modifier while Assassin gets 5, and in just 10 levels, Assassins will have 3 more Speed on average through growths. As a result, doubling is much less frequent which actively hinders their ability to one round enemies. Magic weapons and combat arts also give sword units ways to hit enemy Res without investing into Reason at all, so Mortal Savant doesn't really excel at anything. 

If we went full Smogon, I'd add an RU and NU tier as well, but to make things quick, I'll list off classes that really have no justification ever. In this poll, they're at the very bottom of UU imo. 

  • Hero, Swordmaster, Fortress Knight, Wyvern Rider, Warrior, Sniper, Grappler, Warlock, Dark Bishop: All of these classes are strictly beat by another class in other tiers. That's not to say you can't use them, but their primary weapon type is better used in another class. 

 

Edited by LegendOfLoog
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If we’re basing on Smogon, I’d add RU, NU, PU, and LC as well since it’s more familiar and easier to categorize. Basing upon the main 3 tiers, I’d consider the OU/UU as “OU” ones, while RU/NU/PU/LC are the “UU” ones.

Ubers(basically the best classes in FE3H):

  • Wyvern Lord - essentially the best physical class with its high mobility, growths, and stats.
  • Falcon Knight - trades Wyvern Lord’s axes for swords, has slightly less strength in exchange for speed, and is a bit more restrictive as it’s female only. Otherwise, the same argument for Wyvern Lord applies.
  • Bow Knight - +2 range on a mount is busted.

OU(not as broken as Ubers but still very good):

  • Dark Knight - best mounted mage for long term investment.
  • Gremory - x2 uses is nice, and they have higher mobility than other mage classes.

UU(slightly below OU in terms of performance, can still be seen and used every now and then):

  • Assassin - one of the better infantry units if you want to stick with swords.
  • Paladin - a solid option for those who didn’t end up their non-flier mounted class into a Bow Knight.
  • War Master - a good physical class which is just a bit behind in mobility and is sadly gender-locked.
  • Dancer - mostly used for utility, though can be turned into a capable fighter with certain builds.

RU(entering the less considered choices, but still utilized in a way or another as they’re quite decent on their own):

  • Swordmaster - while not a bad unit, it has less speed and mobility than Assassin.
  • Bishop - if you need the extra healing and/or if you’re a female, you can’t be bothered to train Reason to A. Linhardt benefits the best from this, since he can’t be a Gremory.
  • Dark Bishop - hurts from availability issues, and only Hubert can gain full benefits from this class.
  • Warlock - not utilized as an endgame class as much since others would either become Gremory or Dark Knight, but still workable for certain people(Annette/Dorothea/Hanneman).

NU(not really considered for usage, can be used but won’t be as optimal compared to the rest of the classes):

  • Mortal Savant - I feel like this class can shine on endgame where you don’t need to bother with growths anymore, since most of the complaints seem to come from the speed growth reduction. Even then, Dark Knight can potentially achieve what it could do with a better mobility(albeit missing the innate Swordfaire).
  • Holy Knight - the issue isn’t in the class, but in the offensive Faith spell spread in general. Most characters that have the potential to be one only have 2-3 offensive Faith spells at maximum, compared to 4/5 offensive Reason spells they tend to have. If there’s someone who has all of the damaging Faith spells but subpar Reason spells, they could be one.

PU(outclassed by others): 

  • Hero - Swordmaster/Assassin exist for swords. War Master/Wyvern Lord exist for axes.
  • Fortress Knight - low mobility and speed hurts in the long run, and Stride can only get you so far.
  • Great Knight - might as well use Paladin instead of having a lower mobility and an additional armored weakness.

LC(has a direct upgrade for class):

  • Wyvern Rider(Wyvern Lord)
  • Sniper(Bow Knight)
  • Warrior/Grappler(War Master)
Edited by singularity
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The point of hoky knight is not white tomefaire, it's that is cheaper than any other way for an healer to get an horse. In this game few battles will last more than 5 turns, so if you need to attack more than twice whit an healer i don't even think that you can call that unit an healer lol. In any other game healers whitout any way to deal damage whatsoever were top tier units and here you don't even need to save staff uses. To give them a consistent damage tool, be it reason or a weapon, is a waste of resources that is better used into get a+ riding and similar things. You are still going to use phisics/fortify/rescue/warp 80% of the turns. 

Personally i believe holy knight is on par whit bishop, trqding spell uses and healing power for mobility. Is better if you rush maps because in that case you will not meed the extra users, worse otherwise.it's only worse than DK if you consider it a dps class instead of a support class.

In general, i regret having focussed on both reason and faith on every mage, most of them are better of whit one or the other and then learning things that support that magic school.

I'd rather have a dark knight whit A+ riding and C armor than one that can use phisics that one time i don't have an enemy in range.

 

 

Edited by Flere210
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8 hours ago, Timlugia said:

The whole dark seal deal really troubles me, like other than Hubert it seems quite useless.

Why would anyone go though such trouble to get dark seals when they weren't any better?

For me personally, lifetaker is a hell of a mastery skill and I bet it’s use increases as the higher difficulties comes out.

Edited by Escape the Fate
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2 hours ago, Escape the Fate said:

For me personally, lifetaker is a hell of a mastery skill and I bet it’s use increases as the higher difficulties comes out.

It's probably the opposite actually, the higher the difficulty the harder it is to one shot enemies, which means the kill usually happens on weakened enemies (which in turn makes Lifetaker a lot less relevant, since it gives half the HP you dealt if you kill, not half of yours).

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1 hour ago, timon said:

It's probably the opposite actually, the higher the difficulty the harder it is to one shot enemies, which means the kill usually happens on weakened enemies (which in turn makes Lifetaker a lot less relevant, since it gives half the HP you dealt if you kill, not half of yours).

True, it’ll depend on how heavily enemy resistance increases. Hubert hits pretty damn hard due to his growths and since Dark Bishop packs Fiendish Blow by default, but only time will tell.

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If you don't ban their "LC" equivalents, I imagine you can still cheese the game hard with Wyvern Riders and Pegasus Knights. That aside, Dark Knight Lysithea as well as a few Assassins would be your best bet for making up for the lack of fliers. Paladin would also be a more popular end class for units like Dimitri and Felix (who people seem to like as Bow Knights), as well as Leonie.

In short: Dark Knight/Paladin > Assassin/Gremory/War Master >>> Mortal Savant >>> "Great" Knight >>>>>>>> the rest

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22 hours ago, Jayvee94 said:

We don't have that many classes that warrant additional tiers. Besides, Bow Knight isn't really Mega-Rayquaza levels OP.

I was just being silly, but yeah, three tiers is more than enough.  I'd say even two tiers would be fine since it's mostly Mounted units and maybe Gremory vs non Mounted Units.

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14 hours ago, Escape the Fate said:

For me personally, lifetaker is a hell of a mastery skill and I bet it’s use increases as the higher difficulties comes out.

Unfortunately, Lifetaker got smacked upside the head with the nerf hammer.

 

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Not to derail the topic, but I do wonder how much if it all the difficulty spike will the increase the usage of Vantage, Desperation, the Defiant abilities, etc. Right now the Battalion editions are clearly superior because they’re easier to abuse, and they’ll never surpass the Blow abilities, but I do wonder if the gap closes more.

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