Maddening mode is out

[paladin21]

3 hours ago, Escape the Fate said:

I was gonna say we’ve only hit Awakening territory if we have to reload the chapter due to RNG ability loadouts. And even then that was Lunatic+. Although I’ve always considered “just make the enemies frustratingly deadly” the lazy way of increasing difficulty, I’ve never quite come up with a true alternative that doesn’t make things tedious or change the fundamental strategy of the game. It’s not like everyone’s packing Commander/Counterattack etc. it seems so it doesn’t look overtly cheap right now.

I think the right way to increase the difficulty would be giving the AI the same opportunities the player has: leveled battalions, mastery skills, rallies, equipped items (with some of them being glued with a skill to the character), maybe even a dancer every now and then... And then and only then, maybe a few level-ups (maybe having the enemy 2-3 levels above your highest level character in harder difficulties).

Rising stats for the sake of it just feels... lazy. Or creativity-less.

[kaidoi94]

Quote

3 hours ago, Escape the Fate said:

I was gonna say we’ve only hit Awakening territory if we have to reload the chapter due to RNG ability loadouts. And even then that was Lunatic+. Although I’ve always considered “just make the enemies frustratingly deadly” the lazy way of increasing difficulty, I’ve never quite come up with a true alternative that doesn’t make things tedious or change the fundamental strategy of the game. It’s not like everyone’s packing Commander/Counterattack etc. it seems so it doesn’t look overtly cheap right now.

 

By the looks of it, the additional skills enemies have is based on their class, with some exceptions if they're bosses, leaders, etc.  From what I've seen up to Chapter 3:

Thief - Pass

Archer - Poison Strike

Priest - Renewal

Brigand - Lancebreaker+

Mercenary - Axebreaker

Dark Mage - Seal Strength

Armor Knight - Armored Blow

Plus their weapon prowess skills have increased by one or two levels

[Chaotix]

18 minutes ago, Jakkun said:

Yeah from what that sounds like, he's gonna be integral for at least the early game. My next concern is if he'd be able to keep tanking like a champ in the long term in War Master. My fear with him is that the enemies could get so swole later on that he loses his tank niche. Of course, only time will tell on that front.

If War Master Dedue ends up being viable on Maddening, I wonder if he'll have enough time to get Quick Riposte, since that would also go along way in making him tank like a champ.

It might actually be worth leaving him in Fortress Knight in this mode instead for the defense boost, IIRC it's like a +10 difference.

[Technoweirdo]

9 minutes ago, charcoalswift said:

Nope, the mages and Brave weapon users will tear him apart

Mages, yes. Brave-wielding Assassins or whatever? Eh, if Dedue can't tank them, no one can.

[Femboy Advance SP]

I was so excited for this difficulty but hearing about these inflated stats on top of nerfing your exp gain is kinda disheartening.      Still gonna check it out though, hopefully lysithea still one shots everything.

[timon]

IIRC it was speculated that in maddening DK could move. Does he move in chap.4-6? I assume 4 no since it would actually be stupid, but maybe in 6?

[LegendOfLoog]

10 minutes ago, timon said:

IIRC it was speculated that in maddening DK could move. Does he move in chap.4-6? I assume 4 no since it would actually be stupid, but maybe in 6?

He moves if you get in his range, which is 7. So you have to either go all the way around or fight him right at the start. I managed it with Annette's Rallies and Dimitri with Knightkneeler, and I'm sure GD could do it with Lysithea. It looks like it will be really difficult on Black Eagles though since there's no early Dark Spikes and early game lance users not named Dimitri are pretty awful. Edit: This is in Chapter 4 btw. I'm sure it's the same in Chapter 6.

Edited September 11, 2019 by LegendOfLoog

[Escape the Fate]

7 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:

He moves if you get in his range, which is 7. So you have to either go all the way around or fight him right at the start. I managed it with Annette's Rallies and Dimitri with Knightkneeler, and I'm sure GD could do it with Lysithea. It looks like it will be really difficult on Black Eagles though since there's no early Dark Spikes and early game lance users not named Dimitri are pretty awful. Edit: This is in Chapter 4 btw. I'm sure it's the same in Chapter 6.

That’s at least fine. If he was actively chasing you we’d be screwed. Chapter 6 he’s in a room and chapter 8 he’s a good distance away anyway.

[Shadow Mir]

34 minutes ago, timon said:

IIRC it was speculated that in maddening DK could move. Does he move in chap.4-6? I assume 4 no since it would actually be stupid, but maybe in 6?

I assume not in 6, or that it wouldn't matter anyway since by that point you've pretty much won anyway, as defeating everyone else gets you the thumbs up.

[ra2bk]

57 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:

He moves if you get in his range, which is 7. So you have to either go all the way around or fight him right at the start. I managed it with Annette's Rallies and Dimitri with Knightkneeler, and I'm sure GD could do it with Lysithea. It looks like it will be really difficult on Black Eagles though since there's no early Dark Spikes and early game lance users not named Dimitri are pretty awful. Edit: This is in Chapter 4 btw. I'm sure it's the same in Chapter 6.

Next question:
How absurd are his stats?

[LegendOfLoog]

2 minutes ago, ra2bk said:

Next question:
How absurd are his stats?

Not that bad, actually. He has 17 AS, so Rally Speed pushes most of your faster units into not being doubled. He has 40 something Crit though, so you might need a charge or two of Divine Pulse to take him out. The best strategy I can see is to lure him in and Knightkneeler + Gambit him to death which isn't all that different to what you do in Hard. The generics are a lot more dangerous though. 

[Shadow Mir]

24 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:

The generics are a lot more dangerous though. 

Pray tell, how dangerous are they?

[Cor Leonis]

Has anyone figured out the most optimal use of the DLC stat boosters for Maddening? The EXP nerf pretty much guarantees everyone is at level 1 base stats (except maybe Byleth and your lord of choice), so I'm interested in what thresholds can be met with +7 HP, +3 Str, and +3 Spd for the Chapter 1 mock battle.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Cor Leonis

[LegendOfLoog]

42 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Pray tell, how dangerous are they?

On Chapter 5 right now. Mage have 14 AS and Thieves have 12, so doubling them is pretty much impossible without Rally Speed. Every Archer has Poison Strike, and Knights have Armored Blow. Thankfully, all of the Archers have Steel Bows, so their AS is pretty terrible. Dark Mages have Seal Strength which can be annoying as well. Also, it feels like enemies have way higher Charm than before because Gambits appear to be less accurate. It's not too bad, but it's certainly a decent jump in difficulty compared to Hard.

Edit: There's Thief ambush spawns in the top right of the Miklan map. They have Pass, so that's fun. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by LegendOfLoog

[starburst]

32 minutes ago, Azure, Roundabouted Out said:

So, it’s like Awakening all over again.
Except this is actually fair to a tiny extent.

 

28 minutes ago, Escape the Fate said:

I was gonna say we’ve only hit Awakening territory if we have to reload the chapter due to RNG ability loadouts. And even then that was Lunatic+. Although I’ve always considered “just make the enemies frustratingly deadly” the lazy way of increasing difficulty, I’ve never quite come up with a true alternative that doesn’t make things tedious or change the fundamental strategy of the game.

This is exactly what I was afraid of. Stat-inflation just because.
I did not enjoy what I played of the game and was waiting for Lunatic to give it another try.

From what I had read, the biggest difference was supposed to be Breaker skills on most enemies from the very beginning, to somewhat reintroduce the Weapon Triangle, along with higher enemy Speed, so that only your fastest units could double. And I was hoping for different enemy placement or goals, so that the (always open) maps could be more interesting.

I still have to update the system and would like to migrate to emuNAND at the same time, so it will be a couple of days until I can finally try the new difficulty. Let us hope that it will actually be more interesting.

[dragontamer]

I think a lot of people here who want a more "difficult" game should give PvP Wargroove a try. Wargroove campaign is artificial difficulty, but nothing beats the "real" difficulty of player-vs-player.

Fire Emblem is restricted, because the player's characters have more meaning than enemy generics. Its exponentially more meaningful when a player's unit dies, rather than the AI's unit dies. The AI as such, is not allowed to really gang-up on our units and go for the kill. That'd be unfair. Stat-improvement on top suicide-into-my-army AI is the only "fair" way for the AI to play. Furthermore, this is a story-based game.

Only PvP games (with an appropriately ranked opponent) offer that "true difficulty" that I seek.

 

---------

 

Anyone who has played PvP Wargroove knows how much of a stall-fest these turn-based games can become. You cannot engage an army under disadvantage. You can ONLY engage during advantage. Losing even a single unit results in a "snowball" effect: 6 units vs 6 units will frequently finish with 3-units vs 0, because the snowball effect is so real. As such, engaging under neutral, or engaging under disadvantage, is unacceptable. Leading to stall matches where players build up their armies and look for the slightest advantage.

Edited September 11, 2019 by dragontamer

[De Geso]

37 minutes ago, starburst said:

 

This is exactly what I was afraid of. Stat-inflation just because.
I did not enjoy what I played of the game and was waiting for Lunatic to give it another try.

From what I had read, the biggest difference was supposed to be Breaker skills on most enemies from the very beginning, to somewhat reintroduce the Weapon Triangle, along with higher enemy Speed, so that only your fastest units could double. And I was hoping for different enemy placement or goals, so that the (always open) maps could be more interesting.

I still have to update the system and would like to migrate to emuNAND at the same time, so it will be a couple of days until I can finally try the new difficulty. Let us hope that it will actually be more interesting.

Do we have confirmation that enemies are not being placed in greater numbers or better positions?

At any rate, I wasn't expecting Conquest 2 but I am hoping that the challenge is enjoyable.

[Tombstone88]

3 minutes ago, De Geso said:

Do we have confirmation that enemies are not being placed in greater numbers or better positions?

At any rate, I wasn't expecting Conquest 2 but I am hoping that the challenge is enjoyable.

There are definitely extra enemies/enemy changes.  Off the top of my head:

1.) On the Prologue, there's 2 extra mooks on the east side of the map.

2.) On Chapter 2, there are at least 2 extra fighters in the middle of the map; in addition, the fighter with the battalion that guards the west staircase is now a brigand.

[Kruggov]

4 hours ago, paladin21 said:

maybe even a dancer every now and then...

*heroes flashbacks intensify* You do realise just how strong Dancers are in AI hands, do you?

28 minutes ago, dragontamer said:

Anyone who has played PvP Wargroove knows how much of a stall-fest these turn-based games can become. You cannot engage an army under disadvantage. You can ONLY engage during advantage. Losing even a single unit results in a "snowball" effect: 6 units vs 6 units will frequently finish with 3-units vs 0, because the snowball effect is so real. As such, engaging under neutral, or engaging under disadvantage, is unacceptable. Leading to stall matches where players build up their armies and look for the slightest advantage.

Already proven by Fates PvP. Which is why it died, IMO.

[Life]

3 hours ago, Escape the Fate said:

That’s at least fine. If he was actively chasing you we’d be screwed. Chapter 6 he’s in a room and chapter 8 he’s a good distance away anyway.

DK moves in Chapter 8 on Hard Mode too and he blocks the southern chest upon spawn.

Aside from using a flier with a Chest Key (or Wyvern Rider!Ashe), I think the Horseslayer in that chapter is pretty much forfeit on Maddening at this point. It's just a Horseslayer anyway.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Life

[Hauke]

8 minutes ago, Life said:

DK moves in Chapter 8 on Hard Mode too and he blocks the southern chest upon spawn.

Aside from using a flier with a Chest Key (or Wyvern Rider!Ashe), I think the Horseslayer in that chapter is pretty much forfeit on Maddening at this point. It's just a Horseslayer anyway.

Is it true that the death knight uses a rafail gem in this chapter? If yes the horse slayer would be useless anyway.

[pekingduck]

1 hour ago, De Geso said:

Do we have confirmation that enemies are not being placed in greater numbers or better positions?

At any rate, I wasn't expecting Conquest 2 but I am hoping that the challenge is enjoyable.

Conquest's gameplay and enemy programming ROCKED because it made you really think. Felt that there was a lot more to it than stats-optimizing. Movement had to be so carefully done such that defensive walls could not be killed by units being swap-passed to death. Could not just simply put out high-Def or high-Res bait units, because enemy programming would not bite on units they could not damage. Remembering insights that finally came to me after many frustrating tries that finally helped me solve the maps, including the kitsune-hibernation one, Chapter 19, Kitsune Lair, just gives the chills. So much of it was about dealing with enemy skills and their usage of those skills.

Did Fates Conquest, Birthright, and Revelations all have different map and AI designers or something? Man, the Conquest gameplay guys need to come back for another game. Combined with the Koei Tecmo writers, that would be something.

[dragontamer]

1 hour ago, Kruggov said:

Already proven by Fates PvP. Which is why it died, IMO.

I can't say I ever played Fates PvP, but I will say that I definitely enjoy Wargroove (and other turn-based games) stall-fest playstyle. It takes a very good, and very advanced brain, to figure out when it is the appropriate time to attack. Most turns, you'll stall. But a great player will see the "stallbreak" opportunity, and will push it as soon as it occurs.

 

But dare I say it, most people probably won't have fun in that kind of play. Heck, I can only play Wargroove PvP sometimes, when I'm in the mood for it.

[Stroud]

I try it without New Game+ and so far it is manageable, I am at chapter 3 for now. I really see that I change my behavior a lot. But that decrease in Exp.. if you beat a lv 12 unit with a lv 4 unit and still get no level up. xD.

And I don't know if going with BE was the smartest choice, but so far Ferdinand does not too bad. I am still thinking about which characters would be smart to snatch. I am tempted for Leonie and Lysithea..I might have to ditch any idea of challenging DK on chapter 4. I will see..

[starburst]

55 minutes ago, pekingduck said:

Conquest's gameplay and enemy programming ROCKED because it made you really think. Felt that there was a lot more to it than stats-optimizing. Movement had to be so carefully done such that defensive walls could not be killed by units being swap-passed to death. Could not just simply put out high-Def or high-Res bait units, because enemy programming would not bite on units they could not damage.

I do need to play other Fire Emblem entries for longer times so that I not sound so shallow, but what really "clicked" on me was the feeling of Conquest's maps being a "puzzle." And the more I played Three Houses (on Hard), the more I missed Conquest's gameplay.

 

2 hours ago, De Geso said:

At any rate, I wasn't expecting Conquest 2 but I am hoping that the challenge is enjoyable. 

 

56 minutes ago, pekingduck said:

Man, the Conquest gameplay guys need to come back for another game. Combined with the Koei Tecmo writers, that would be something.

This! How could they create such engaging maps for one game and then ignore every single element of it on the next ones?! (A rhetorical question, obviously; for the exact opposite could be said about its story. Still, it is sad that the latest games had an enormous trade-off between these two elements.)