Conquest Lunatic made me Think Wary Fighter is under appreciated..

[Dr. C]

Wary Fighter, from what I’ve seen of various threads in gamefaqs at least, does not get a ton of love.

Its dismissed as useful only to Benny, a speed screwed Effie or Orochi (Though not on conquest obviously) 

Enter the Wind Tribe Chapter and And Master Ninja Xander finds himself being hit by Seal Defense and Seal Speed Soldiers turning him into a weak pathetic pile of gelatin that is unable to do anything effective against the onslaught of enemies. 

Effie gets wary Fighter and goodbye pesky soldiers. 

I cant think of any unit fast enough other than Kaze that could take a seal speed and still double and even then he really can’t take a seal defense all that well. 

And before Benny and Effie getting Wary Fighter, I was still dealing with the nasty Seal Defense/Speed Shenanigans so while I illustrate using a single chapter, situational Wary Fighter is not. 

If you’re at War with hoshido, you will come across Spear Fighters more and more not to mention the possibility of Shuriken speed de buffs.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Dr. C

[starburst]

While I understand your point, I also think that you found a new tool in Wary Fighter precisely because it suits your play style.

You see, I usually play on Hard and Lunatic with ten units only, no royals; and my common "tanks" are Hero Silas and +Magic Cornflakes with her Dragon Stone, or maybe Great Knight Sophie or Wolfssenger Velouria, none of which are defensive units/ builds. So, the defensive thresholds are not that high, and no situation demands that many "tanks" either. I try to create short Enemy Phases and long Player Phases, where I clean the area with the eight units that were not at the front lines and then reorganise the team to march forward.
I am not implying that I play more efficiently, I am trying to describe another play style.

In the example of the Spear Masters with Seal Speed and Seal Defence, I focus on how to kill them in one phase, and not on how long I can "tank" them. Sniper Mozu/ Effie, Sorcerer Ophelia/ Odin, Berserker Velouria/ Effie or Tactician Elise should one-round any Spear Master on Chapter 20. No life, no Seal. And Seals on back-lines units are irrelevant anyway, for they should not be "tanking" anything, and you can choose which of your units should take the offensive Seal.

Edited September 11, 2019 by starburst

[joshcja]

Generally the tactic for seal users or negchain users is just to nuke them from orbit.

Wary fighter isn't bad. It's just also not "nessecary" as most combat at 3rdshop eskews the extra attack.

[Hanes]

I mean Seal skills are too OP as well which is why I guess you appreciated Wary Fighter but Wary Fighter is so annoying, there are better ways to fix a General than just making them annoying. And it doesn't make sense that a knight isn't getting doubled. Maybe it would be better if their enemy phase resistance and defense increased by a bit, like 4 maybe.

[Dr. C]

4 hours ago, starburst said:

While I understand your point, I also think that you found a new tool in Wary Fighter precisely because it suits your play style.

You see, I usually play on Hard and Lunatic with ten units only, no royals; and my common "tanks" are Hero Silas and +Magic Cornflakes with her Dragon Stone, or maybe Great Knight Sophie or Wolfssenger Velouria, none of which are defensive units/ builds. So, the defensive thresholds are not that high, and no situation demands that many "tanks" either. I try to create short Enemy Phases and long Player Phases, where I clean the area with the eight units that were not at the front lines and then reorganise the team to march forward.
I am not implying that I play more efficiently, I am trying to describe another play style.

In the example of the Spear Masters with Seal Speed and Seal Defence, I focus on how to kill them in one phase, and not on how long I can "tank" them. Sniper Mozu/ Effie, Sorcerer Ophelia/ Odin, Berserker Velouria/ Effie or Tactician Elise should one-round any Spear Master on Chapter 20. No life, no Seal. And Seals on back-lines units are irrelevant anyway, for they should not be "tanking" anything, and you can choose which of your units should take the offensive Seal.

I’m perfectly open to alternate strategies but I honestly cannot see how what you describe as feasible in situations where groups of enemies flock f you bait one.

plus it may not be possible to ORKO anything on player phase. Then what do you do?

 

[Dr. C]

2 hours ago, joshcja said:

Generally the tactic for seal users or negchain users is just to nuke them from orbit.

Wary fighter isn't bad. It's just also not "nessecary" as most combat at 3rdshop eskews the extra attack.

I don’t know what you been my “3rdshop eskews the extra attack” means.

Could you elaborate? 

[Dr. C]

2 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

I mean Seal skills are too OP as well which is why I guess you appreciated Wary Fighter but Wary Fighter is so annoying, there are better ways to fix a General than just making them annoying. And it doesn't make sense that a knight isn't getting doubled. Maybe it would be better if their enemy phase resistance and defense increased by a bit, like 4 maybe.

There is the Dread Fighter Skill that recovers Debuffd faster but yeah. It can prove to be a bit of a hassle to try and take them out one at a time especially on the wind tribe map where gusts are f wind yield very weird player and enemy placements 

[Hanes]

Yes Wary FIghter and Seal-X skills just need to be either rebalanced or taken out of the game because at their current state they can be easily be pretty powerful.

[joshcja]

37 minutes ago, Dr. C said:

I don’t know what you been my “3rdshop eskews the extra attack” means.

Could you elaborate? 

By 3rd shop we rely far less on doubling because (with a few notable exceptions like Sol!MN) we can just brave on player phase or just one shot on EP as we have redunculous stack going.

[Dr. C]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

By 3rd shop we rely far less on doubling because (with a few notable exceptions like Sol!MN) we can just brave on player phase or just one shot on EP as we have redunculous stack going.

I see... 

Something tells me I am not optimally equipping my units...

Whats the significance of Sol!MN here?

I am not familiar with that abbreviation. Pardon my ignorance. 

 

[De Geso]

4 hours ago, Dr. C said:

I see... 

Something tells me I am not optimally equipping my units...

Whats the significance of Sol!MN here?

I am not familiar with that abbreviation. Pardon my ignorance. 

 

Master Ninjas with the Sol skill.

[starburst]

On 9/12/2019 at 12:37 AM, Dr. C said:

I’m perfectly open to alternate strategies but I honestly cannot see how what you describe as feasible in situations where groups of enemies flock f you bait one.

plus it may not be possible to ORKO anything on player phase. Then what do you do?

Your doubts are perfectly understandable, but I also know that what I say is reproducible. The thing is that doubting is way simpler than proving something. So, to make this more interesting for both of us, give me a specific situation and I will try my best to describe what I normally do.

And you do not need to kill all enemies on Player Phase; as long as you kill as many enemies as possible and the remaining enemy(s) cannot kill one of your units in their range, you won. The area is cleared and you can march forward. And I honestly cannot think of a situation where the enemies suddenly "flock" my party.
 

Spoiler

One probably faces more than ten enemies if one advances through the south-east section of Chapter 17, but they are always visible and the passage is one-tile wide; thus, it is not that the enemies can advance and target any unit that one did not deliberately put in their range.

In Chapter 18, the Sorcerers and Heroes in the top room are menacing, and there are reinforcements after certain movements, but the unit that baits the Sorcerers is in range of only one physical attack. The rest of the party is able to deal with the remaining enemies and can block the stairs so that less or no reinforcements appear. The enemy pairs inside Zola's room might require a Freeze charge, but nothing weird. In the meantime, at least one unit is in the top-right corner, opening the chest.

In my experience, Chapter 19 demands more Enemy Phases than all other maps, but even then, crossing the bridge is easier on Player Phase than trying to tank enemies with Pass. And I do not "cheese" it by only fielding a Wary Fighter General or Wyvern Lord Camilla / Xander holding a Beast Killer; all ten units are deployed and march as a pack.

Chapter 20 is either fast and straightforward or very tricky, depending on how many chests one wants. But most flying enemies will suicide against the Hunter's Knife or will move within your range before your units are inside theirs; every Spear Master can be one-rounded; Magicians are frail... If anything, the mixed groups of Great Masters plus Magicians, or Magicians plus Spear Master are the ones which cause me more troubles. Yet, the wind mechanics offers so many variables that it is not easy to tell if the toughest situations are a design or only a product of wrong moves.

Edited September 13, 2019 by starburst

[joshcja]

33 minutes ago, starburst said:

And I honestly cannot think of a situation where the enemies suddenly "flock" my party.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

One probably faces more than ten enemies if one advances through the south-east section of Chapter 17, but they are always visible and the passage is one-tile wide; thus, it is not that the enemies can advance and target any unit that one did not deliberately put in their range.

In Chapter 18, the Sorcerers and Heroes in the top room are menacing, and there are reinforcements after certain movements, but the unit that baits the Sorcerers is in range of only one physical attack. The rest of the party is able to deal with the remaining enemies and can block the stairs so that less or no reinforcements appear. The enemy pairs inside Zola's room might require a Freeze charge, but nothing weird. In the meantime, at least one unit is in the top-right corner, opening the chest.

In my experience, Chapter 19 demands more Enemy Phases than all other maps, but even then, crossing the bridge is easier on Player Phase than trying to tank enemies with Pass. And I do not "cheese" it by only fielding a Wary Fighter General or Wyvern Lord Camilla / Xander holding a Beast Killer; all ten units are deployed and march as a pack.

Chapter 20 is either fast and straightforward or very tricky, depending on how many chests one wants. But most flying enemies will suicide against the Hunter's Knife or will move within your range before your units are inside theirs; every Spear Master can be one-rounded; Magicians are frail... If anything, the mixed groups of Great Masters plus Magicians, or Magicians plus Spear Master are the ones which cause me more troubles. Yet, the wind mechanics offers so many variables that it is not easy to tell if the toughest situations are a design or only a product of wrong moves.

CH 24

[Eltosian Kadath]

4 hours ago, joshcja said:

CH 24

If you manage the dragon veins carefully in that chapter they shouldn't have the mobility to really flock you.

[joshcja]

8 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

If you manage the dragon veins carefully in that chapter they shouldn't have the mobility to really flock you.

The joke was... they're birds

[starburst]

14 hours ago, joshcja said:

CH 24

This is probably a trick, for the instances wherein you are surrounded (never outnumbered, though) is against fliers, which can all be one-hit.

I will do my best to describe from memory a set of movements for the first section of the map.
 

Spoiler

At the very beginning, two Kinshis will approach from south-west and some Pegasi will approach from north-east. The former suicide against any of your units; literally, they cannot kill anyone. The latter die against a Hunter's Knife or a Beast Killer or Ophelia or a Sniper or an Adventurer or a Berserker.
Immediately afterwards arrive two more Kinshi from the west and two Pegasi approach from the far west. Again, the Kinshi cannot kill anyone, and as long as your bait does not die to the Magic Lance (forgot its name), you are fine. The range of both Pegasi is exactly the same, meaning that one unit will do a physical attack and the other must attack from the second row. They all die easily on Player Phase (Berserker, Sniper, Sorcerer, +Magic Noble Cornflakes, whatever.)
I do not remember if there are two more Pegasi or not, but nothing would change. Rinse and repeat. It is always ten units against two or four enemies.

Then comes the Magic Islands Tour, assuming that one wants to clear everything.
Two Magicians will come from north-west as soon as you dispatch the aforementioned Pegasi. And five or so Magicians await you on the northern island. All these enemies are easy to deal with, since Ophelia or Elise or Kaze or Anna can tank them, like, forever. You do not even need to use Player Phases on them. It is perfect to let these units meet their thresholds.

Since two units can take care of the northern island, just send everyone else to scout the southern one. This is trickier because your movements trigger reinforcements, and you will only have one or two phases to realign your formation, but at no point does the enemy outnumber your ten units.
Send a bait to the bridge, and immediately afterwards send one high-Resistance unit paired with an anti-flier unit to deal with the Magicians at the bottom of the island. Then create a "barrier" with your units to hold the Oni Chiefs. Even if they only target one of your units, they cannot pile on you if your units form next to each other. You can even un-equip the front lines if it reduces the number of attacks (or if your unit can one-round them but is not sturdy enough to tank them all.)

Two Kinshis will appear south-west and target the units at the bottom part of the island (that is why you left an anti-flier there.) At the same time two (four?) Pegasi will chase you from the east. In three turns, you dispatched the Oni Chiefs, crossed the bridge and made a formation to tackle the incoming Pegasi.

So far, no Dragon Veins, no flying, no nothing.

 

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

The joke was... they're birds

And there it is. 🙃

Edited September 13, 2019 by starburst