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WORST Unit for a HHM Ranked Run?


KaiserKrieg
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I would like to know what that "etc" in so-called "meme characters" is because Isadora and Lucius don't even register when thinking of the worst units for a ranked HHM run. Just about everyone is going to see some use.

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How in the world are Lucius and Isadora the worst? Isadora gets carried by her class while Lucius' base stats are great. 

Anyway, if Rebecca, Wil, and Wallace are for some reason excluded, then I pick Lyn. Only with a stat boosted Lyn imported from Lyn Mode can she contribute. And her promotion is so bad you're better off keeping her 20000G Heaven Seal in the convoy for funds rank. Runner up is Farina. Costs a whopping 20000G to recruit, and another 10000 to promote. The Funds rank is stingy.

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Seriously, what the hell are those Lyn bases? Not only she would get to at least level 5 if you do LM even if you do not even try to use her, there is also no HM bonuses. It looks like  they really want you to play LM lol. Anyway, on mani katti alone she is better than things like nino. 

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9 hours ago, Florete said:

I would like to know what that "etc" in so-called "meme characters" is because Isadora and Lucius don't even register when thinking of the worst units for a ranked HHM run. Just about everyone is going to see some use.

Isadora gets bilked by the way CON works in this game by lowering her AS, thus preventing her from doubling with weapons like the hand axe and reaver weapons and her strength isn’t enough to secure kills with iron weapons.She is also a prepromoted Paladin which doesn’t help your EXP rank and she’s subpar at fighting unlike Marcus, Hawkeye, Pent, etc.whi are all very strong prepromotes. While Marcus and co. may not help your EXP rank, they can at least take down opponents the rest of your units can’t  which cant be said of Isadora.

Lucius uses light magic (worst magic type in the game) and has the same problem as Isadora in regards to weapon weight. He does promote to Bishop and get an instant C in Staves but promoting him eats into your funds and may dip into the exp as well.

I will concede that they both have small niches that keep them relevant, such as Isadora’s mobility and rescue utility and Lucius promoting to get an instant C Staff rank, but as far as competent units go; they are pretty bad.

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Rebecca actually has quite a bit of use in a ranking run.

A lot of people will argue tier placements and put archers low down on the list because lolenemy phase but then when they play the game, they realize that archers have a really nice niche in quite a few chapters.

First thought that comes to my head is Genesis (23x). To clear away Kishuna effectively, you need a Longbow. Since the rank you need to always pay attention to is Exp, there's no reason to ever field Louise without Pent (the A support is that good in a game where supports are non-existant), doors neuter Rath's one advantage he has over the archers (restricted move) and Wil is interchangable but you've had Rebecca for longer and chances are that her stats are already better than Wil's.

Karel is probably the single worst unit in the game for ranking purposes, even more than Karla (Karla at least comes at ??/5 so she has a potential 1500 Exp to give even though she requires a promoted Bartre).

Karel, on the other hand, comes at ??/8, doesn't have flying utility (making him worse than ??/9 Vaida), denies you Harken, doesn't have Hard Mode Bonuses and is actually less durable than Pent who joined the chapter before as a Sage.

Nino can at least contribute to Exp. Karel is bench material.

 

Edit: Isadora is actually really solid of a unit (8 Move salvages everything in this game) and Lucius is a magical tank with staff utility upon promotion (C Staves so that's a free Exp pool to draw on). They're mediocre but by no ways bad for an S Rank HHM game.

Edited by Life
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3 hours ago, KaiserKrieg said:

Isadora gets bilked by the way CON works in this game by lowering her AS, thus preventing her from doubling with weapons like the hand axe and reaver weapons and her strength isn’t enough to secure kills with iron weapons.She is also a prepromoted Paladin which doesn’t help your EXP rank and she’s subpar at fighting unlike Marcus, Hawkeye, Pent, etc.whi are all very strong prepromotes. While Marcus and co. may not help your EXP rank, they can at least take down opponents the rest of your units can’t  which cant be said of Isadora.

Lucius uses light magic (worst magic type in the game) and has the same problem as Isadora in regards to weapon weight. He does promote to Bishop and get an instant C in Staves but promoting him eats into your funds and may dip into the exp as well.

I will concede that they both have small niches that keep them relevant, such as Isadora’s mobility and rescue utility and Lucius promoting to get an instant C Staff rank, but as far as competent units go; they are pretty bad.

You didn't answer me.

Isadora and Lucius aren't exactly incredible, but there's a solid chunk of units worse than them.

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4 hours ago, KaiserKrieg said:

Isadora gets bilked by the way CON works in this game by lowering her AS, thus preventing her from doubling with weapons like the hand axe and reaver weapons and her strength isn’t enough to secure kills with iron weapons.She is also a prepromoted Paladin which doesn’t help your EXP rank and she’s subpar at fighting unlike Marcus, Hawkeye, Pent, etc.whi are all very strong prepromotes. While Marcus and co. may not help your EXP rank, they can at least take down opponents the rest of your units can’t  which cant be said of Isadora.

Lucius uses light magic (worst magic type in the game) and has the same problem as Isadora in regards to weapon weight. He does promote to Bishop and get an instant C in Staves but promoting him eats into your funds and may dip into the exp as well.

I will concede that they both have small niches that keep them relevant, such as Isadora’s mobility and rescue utility and Lucius promoting to get an instant C Staff rank, but as far as competent units go; they are pretty bad.

Actually, let me dive into this.

On HHM, we can promote... about 7 units or so without really destroying the Funds rank.

Who's really taking a Guiding Ring outside of Priscilla? Lucius has the best Mag and gets C in Staves on promotion. Both Erk and Canas start with E Staves on promotion and Serra is never going to be an offensive unit (besides, why promote both Serra and Prissy?). C Staves is excellent and Lucius' high Mag means that Warp and Rescue can actually be used by him to more effect than Prissy (Lucius has ~19 Mag at 20/1 while Prissy has ~15).

Lucius is actually the best magic user not named Pent in this game... which should tell you everything you need to know about the spellcasters in this game. Prissy and Serra get their own tier but that's because they're not competing for combat Exp and are worth their utility weight in gold.

As for Isadora, the Body Ring is worth 8000 Gold (less than a promotion) and is effectively worth 2 AS on her. Nobody else really has a good argument for it aside from the Convoy. And with it, Isadora now wields a Silver Sword at base with 16 AS. Sain needs 20/5 on average for the same AS and that already costs him an extra 2k gold (promotion) and A Swords (something that you can't guarantee by Chapter 21). Sure, his Str is higher but it's not like he completely outclasses her immediately on arrival. Kent has similar stats himself but also finds himself with lower weapon levels than Isadora (she joins with A Swords, B Lances and D Axes which is mighty solid at base for full WT control). Lowen might be tanky but he's got 16 Spd at 20/10.

And for the cherry on the cake, Body Ring!Isadora doubles everything in her joining chapter with a Silver Sword. She delivers the perfect meaty chip for Exp units to just eat up kills. This is beyond usable as opposed to Karel who I mentioned above.

Neither of these units are bad. They're not excellent but they also aren't obsolete upon arrival.

Edited by Life
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/12/2019 at 7:42 AM, KaiserKrieg said:

Isadora gets bilked by the way CON works in this game by lowering her AS, thus preventing her from doubling with weapons like the hand axe and reaver weapons and her strength isn’t enough to secure kills with iron weapons.She is also a prepromoted Paladin which doesn’t help your EXP rank and she’s subpar at fighting unlike Marcus, Hawkeye, Pent, etc.whi are all very strong prepromotes. While Marcus and co. may not help your EXP rank, they can at least take down opponents the rest of your units can’t  which cant be said of Isadora.

Lucius uses light magic (worst magic type in the game) and has the same problem as Isadora in regards to weapon weight. He does promote to Bishop and get an instant C in Staves but promoting him eats into your funds and may dip into the exp as well.

I will concede that they both have small niches that keep them relevant, such as Isadora’s mobility and rescue utility and Lucius promoting to get an instant C Staff rank, but as far as competent units go; they are pretty bad.

Isadora, maybe. But she’s not the terrible unit you make her out to be, like Life said above. 

Lucius is bad? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! (I’m tempted to put in more “Ha”s but I won’t). 

Now that’s just bullshit. Who else are you going to promote except for Lucius that’s not Pricilla? Erk or Canas over Lucius? You’ve got to kidding me. Also you clearly didn’t take into account availability but ok...

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doors neuter Rath's one advantage he has over the archers (restricted move)

They really don't. Rath can open doors and move again if he needs to, but you would need to play slowly to not make use of his extra movement on Genesis.

 

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A lot of people will argue tier placements and put archers low down on the list because lolenemy phase but then when they play the game, they realize that archers have a really nice niche in quite a few chapters.

You're giving Wil and Rebecca way too much credit. They're going to be more useful on a ranked playthrough because the EXP rank exists, but it still doesn't help them clear main objectives quickly with their 5 mov or farm experience on EP with their locked 2 range.

Anyway, the TC's question is too vague to be interesting to answer. I'm also like 10 days late to the party, but whatever.

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Why is no one mentioning Dart?

I mean if Farina is here over 30 000 then surely 50 000 is worth a mention.

Granted outside of Ranked I'll still consider him best Axe Unit. A unit that has his own promotion item is low competition and while it certainly could be argued that 25k might be more useful, it's not like the game doesn't throw a ton of money at you not to mention 2 Arenas by then. I usually bring units I have no intention of using into Arena to circumvent the difficulty killing of over leveled units and giving me some fillers for CoD and VoD but having a few extra funds to play around with for Killer Weapons, physics, chest keys and Elixers.

Fire Affinity (And promotion crit bonus) turns him into a crit monkey and fixes his accuracy issues and also... there are secret books that no unit is particularly desperate for. 

People always detract from me saying that I am arguing for a high investment unit but the resources I speak of are low/no competition items. 

Anyways this isn't a thread about Dart but I can't bring myself to bash him in an S Rank context wholeheartedly because of my love of him as a unit.

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Why is no one mentioning Dart?

He doesn't cost anything to buy, and he can contribute to the experience rank easily enough. A lot of good units are not going to promote either, so the fact that he won't isn't that big of a deal really.

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Granted outside of Ranked I'll still consider him best Axe Unit.

Marcus, Kent, Sain, Lowen, Raven, Hawkeye, Harken, Hector, Geitz

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On 9/25/2019 at 2:46 AM, samthedigital said:

He doesn't cost anything to buy, and he can contribute to the experience rank easily enough. A lot of good units are not going to promote either, so the fact that he won't isn't that big of a deal really.

Marcus, Kent, Sain, Lowen, Raven, Hawkeye, Harken, Hector, Geitz

My Rebuttal

Hector-Caps with late promotion 

Marcus- Admittedly... you have a case but I was only thinking of the people who start with axes as their first weapon but if I had  to counter. I would say... damage output with an Axe. Fire Affinity leaves potentiality for a  crit monkey build. If we are debating over who’s the better unit it’s not exactly a fair contest lol. 

Raven, Kent, Sain, Lowen-They get Axes after promotion and while the Devil Axe can escalate their.weapon rank growth, there’s still the backfire factor. 

 

Hawkeye-Despite being the same class, they have completely different roles. Dart will double more and Hawkeye will tank more and is already promoted. Hawkeye could be a better unit because of Dart’s glass cannon growths but the doubling and critical rate boosting with his fire affinity are truly fantastic. 

Geitz: He is pretty awesome I’ll give you that. However I will say +15 crit is generally better than bows. 

Harken- I got nothing Harken is arguably the best foot soldier and he’s got that Fire Affinity that I’ve been trumpeting hardcore on Dart... I surrender. 

In my original context, I do think he outclasses Dorcas, Bartre and if you tonite him will eventually outshine Hector but admittedly the gap narrows on Eliwood Mode 

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Hector-Caps with late promotion

He has something to do in every chapter until he falls off to compensate for that.

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Raven, Kent, Sain, Lowen-They get Axes after promotion and while the Devil Axe can escalate their.weapon rank growth, there’s still the backfire factor. 

Weapon rank growth isn't very important; they get Hand Axes when they promote. They can also promote around when Dart joins or slightly later where he is stuck waiting quite a few chapters. He also has some hit issues on his join chapter and is stuck with Axes which while better than being sword locked is not completely ideal.

 

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I would say... damage output with an Axe. Fire Affinity leaves potentiality for a  crit monkey build.

Supports take too long to build and aren't very effective when you do build them. Dart can one round things just fine without them anyway. He's not a bad unit by any means; his combat is good with a few levels. With a skill book and a speedwing he's especially good when he promotes, but that does require resources.

 

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Hawkeye-Despite being the same class, they have completely different roles. Dart will double more and Hawkeye will tank more and is already promoted. Hawkeye could be a better unit because of Dart’s glass cannon growths but the doubling and critical rate boosting with his fire affinity are truly fantastic. 

A Speedwing will fix Hawkeye's speed issues for the most part. He's great filler whereas Dart takes more resources and time to really get going.

 

I understand the sentiment to be sure. I feel that Dart is slightly underrated, but I wouldn't go that far with the claim. He definitely has faults despite the fact that he becomes great at combat with some effort.

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4 hours ago, samthedigital said:

He has something to do in every chapter until he falls off to compensate for that.

Weapon rank growth isn't very important; they get Hand Axes when they promote. They can also promote around when Dart joins or slightly later where he is stuck waiting quite a few chapters. He also has some hit issues on his join chapter and is stuck with Axes which while better than being sword locked is not completely ideal.

Supports take too long to build and aren't very effective when you do build them. Dart can one round things just fine without them anyway. He's not a bad unit by any means; his combat is good with a few levels. With a skill book and a speedwing he's especially good when he promotes, but that does require resources.

 

A Speedwing will fix Hawkeye's speed issues for the most part. He's great filler whereas Dart takes more resources and time to really get going.

 

I understand the sentiment to be sure. I feel that Dart is slightly underrated, but I wouldn't go that far with the claim. He definitely has faults despite the fact that he becomes great at combat with some effort.

Yeah Dart certainly gets a lot of hate when I defend him on gamefaqs 

Everyone goes

”Ocean Seal is so valuable”

And only he can use it... people forget that part while crying over 25 000 gold.

“The fact you have to use stat boosters makes him bad!”

Show of hands in the army, who else needs a secret book?

Also I completely forgot about Hand Axes being E Rank in blazing Sword.

Been playing a lot of Fates latest

 

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Getting back to Isadora, she is definitely one of the worst units for a ranked run. The fact is that she cannot contribute enough in a ranked run to offset her low experience gain. She may be able to save a turn here or there, but you're going to prefer a unit who can earn at least 30 exp per turn to a unit that can maybe save you a turn in a run in which the turn count is not a significant constraint when compared to experience gain. The decision becomes even clearer on longs maps with high enemy density, of which there are several after Isadora joins. A host of mediocre unpromoted units move above Isadora due to this fact. Obviously she moves up the list for an unranked efficiency playthrough or even LTC, but in a ranked run she struggles.

She's still better than some units, like Karel, Karla, Wallace, Renault, and Louise, and Farina. There are also going to be a couple unpromoted units that cannot "consistently" get "enough" kills to offset Isadora's utility, but this analysis is complicated and can be subjective; I won't go into it right now. On balance, though, I think you'll find that most of those units reach the threshold for consistent experience gain.

As for the absolute worst, I'm going with Karla.

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7 hours ago, Ranjin said:

Getting back to Isadora, she is definitely one of the worst units for a ranked run. The fact is that she cannot contribute enough in a ranked run to offset her low experience gain. She may be able to save a turn here or there, but you're going to prefer a unit who can earn at least 30 exp per turn to a unit that can maybe save you a turn in a run in which the turn count is not a significant constraint when compared to experience gain. The decision becomes even clearer on longs maps with high enemy density, of which there are several after Isadora joins. A host of mediocre unpromoted units move above Isadora due to this fact. Obviously she moves up the list for an unranked efficiency playthrough or even LTC, but in a ranked run she struggles.

She's still better than some units, like Karel, Karla, Wallace, Renault, and Louise, and Farina. There are also going to be a couple unpromoted units that cannot "consistently" get "enough" kills to offset Isadora's utility, but this analysis is complicated and can be subjective; I won't go into it right now. On balance, though, I think you'll find that most of those units reach the threshold for consistent experience gain.

As for the absolute worst, I'm going with Karla.

Citing Mekkah’s pro Isadora points, movement is the best stat especially in a ranked run. 

She may not have the stats to be a frontline but her weapon triangle control and base 16 sperf do make her versatile enough to have a strong player phase and her low con may limit this butt if she’s up against Knights I or Cavaliers, she will double with the Horseslayer  and  Which are great player phase weapons but terrible when there’s mixed unit composition on enemy phase. Getting rid of that one pesky unit can make a world of difference on some maps and at the end of the day all the perks of being mounted like Canto and Rescue dropping still apply.

Edit: Forgot to address Exp Rank. An 8 move unit can be a tactics boon and if she’s dropping the unit you want to get experience on enemy phase and pull back then she contributes to aEXP rank in an indirect way while providing clutch kills as needed.

Edited by Dr. C
Forgot to addrsss a point
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20 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I would say Bartre. His poor speed kills his combat performance.

Yes he that 3 base is pretty brutal but those growths are actually all around pretty solid so he could potentially turn out good but that luck and chance. 

To me the prime candidates are going to be Will, Rebecca and Bartre. However outrageous the cost of Farina is, she starts with solid bases with a particularly excellent defense for her level. And her starting equipment does at least offset the 20 000 a little bit and at the end of the day, you are paying for a useful unit so there’s something to be said for that.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/29/2019 at 6:08 PM, Dr. C said:

Citing Mekkah’s pro Isadora points, movement is the best stat especially in a ranked run. 

Citing Mekkah, movement is the best stat period. But in a ranked run, the Tactics rank is not an issue. The Experience Rank is.

On 9/29/2019 at 6:08 PM, Dr. C said:

She may not have the stats to be a frontline but her weapon triangle control and base 16 sperf do make her versatile enough to have a strong player phase and her low con may limit this butt if she’s up against Knights I or Cavaliers, she will double with the Horseslayer  and  Which are great player phase weapons but terrible when there’s mixed unit composition on enemy phase. Getting rid of that one pesky unit can make a world of difference on some maps and at the end of the day all the perks of being mounted like Canto and Rescue dropping still apply.

There just aren't enough "pesky units" in FE7 such that Isadora's contribution is significant enough to make up for poor exp gain. Of those, there are even fewer that she can engage better than Marcus, and Marcus has the added benefit of being able to survive better. I realize saying that she is worse than Marcus is not the best argument for why she isn't great in a ranked run, but there are very few slots available to promoted units if you want to maximize Exp gain, and Isadora faces serious competition in this regard.

On 9/29/2019 at 6:08 PM, Dr. C said:

Edit: Forgot to address Exp Rank. An 8 move unit can be a tactics boon and if she’s dropping the unit you want to get experience on enemy phase and pull back then she contributes to aEXP rank in an indirect way while providing clutch kills as needed.

I'd rather bring a slew of unpromoted mounts who can both rescue/drop and earn experience than bring Isadora to do this job.

Ultimately, it boils down to the fact that FE7 enemies are weak. Does using Isadora make killing them way easier? Absolutely yes. But this is a ranked run, not an unranked efficiency run, and there is more to consider than just reenacting the Ride of the Rohirrim. The ability to gain experience is one of the most important things to consider.

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9 hours ago, Ranjin said:

Citing Mekkah, movement is the best stat period. But in a ranked run, the Tactics rank is not an issue. The Experience Rank is.

There just aren't enough "pesky units" in FE7 such that Isadora's contribution is significant enough to make up for poor exp gain. Of those, there are even fewer that she can engage better than Marcus, and Marcus has the added benefit of being able to survive better. I realize saying that she is worse than Marcus is not the best argument for why she isn't great in a ranked run, but there are very few slots available to promoted units if you want to maximize Exp gain, and Isadora faces serious competition in this regard.

I'd rather bring a slew of unpromoted mounts who can both rescue/drop and earn experience than bring Isadora to do this job.

Ultimately, it boils down to the fact that FE7 enemies are weak. Does using Isadora make killing them way easier? Absolutely yes. But this is a ranked run, not an unranked efficiency run, and there is more to consider than just reenacting the Ride of the Rohirrim. The ability to gain experience is one of the most important things to consider.

That’s why you rotate your unprompted units to max miss experience gain.

 

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On 10/13/2019 at 2:55 AM, Dr. C said:

That’s why you rotate your unprompted units to max miss experience gain.

Yeah, you can do that. You should do that. But that doesn't refute what I'm saying.

My point is that the constraints of a ranked run are not well suited for Isadora. It's a matter of degree; the Tactics rank is generally a minor consideration, whereas the run is strongly affected by the need to earn lots of exp to 5 star the Experience rank. Therefore, comparatively, you're going to focus on experience gain much more than turn count. Therefore, comparatively, Isadora's strengths are significantly dampened whereas her weakness are significantly enhanced. These are not absolute rank difficulty dynamics but the relative differences are still pretty large.

One thing I will say is that I don't extend this logic to every prepromote. Marcus, for instance, is only slightly worse than in an unranked run, because he can save a lot of turns in chapters with low EXP/funds so that these turns can be "spent" in more lucrative chapters. I'm just talking about Isadora's situation.

With that said, I recognize that my ranked play is not the gold standard. Indeed, I have completed runs with experience surpluses and I probably could have made things a little easier on myself if I used Isadora a little more. That being said, there were characterizations of Isadora's strengths outlined in this thread, which I agree with generally, that I felt needed to be reassessed in the context of a ranked run because they significantly affect Isadora's comparative performance in such a run.

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On 10/3/2019 at 8:08 PM, Dr. C said:

Yes he that 3 base is pretty brutal but those growths are actually all around pretty solid so he could potentially turn out good but that luck and chance. 

 To me the prime candidates are going to be Will, Rebecca and Bartre. However outrageous the cost of Farina is, she starts with solid bases with a particularly excellent defense for her level. And her starting equipment does at least offset the 20 000 a little bit and at the end of the day, you are paying for a useful unit so there’s something to be said for that.

That 3 base is hardly the only issue he has. It's also the fact that he doesn't get any speed upon promoting to Warrior, meaning he has to rely entirely on his okay-but-not-great speed growth.

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