WORST Unit for a HHM Ranked Run?

[samthedigital]

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That being said, there were characterizations of Isadora's strengths outlined in this thread, which I agree with generally, that I felt needed to be reassessed in the context of a ranked run because they significantly affect Isadora's comparative performance in such a run.

What units do you think are better than Isadora in a ranked run that are worse than her in a normal run? Generally speaking a character is still going to be rated based on their ability to do or support primary objectives. I don't disagree that experience is the most important rank, but I don't think it's fair to rate a character above Isadora if their only contribution is to the exp rank.

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I'd rather bring a slew of unpromoted mounts who can both rescue/drop and earn experience than bring Isadora to do this job.

Isadora comes at a time where most mounted units should be nearing promotion or being permanently benched even in the context of a ranked playthrough.

[Dr. C]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

That 3 base is hardly the only issue he has. It's also the fact that he doesn't get any speed upon promoting to Warrior, meaning he has to rely entirely on his okay-but-not-great speed growth.

Oh yeah warrior promotion gains do him no favors It's more you can't look at his growths and say any of them are terrible. Like I said, it's very luck and chance.

The thing that makes him better than Will and Rebecca is simply having an enemy phase and 1-2 Attack Range option. 

2 hours ago, Ranjin said:

Yeah, you can do that. You should do that. But that doesn't refute what I'm saying.

My point is that the constraints of a ranked run are not well suited for Isadora. It's a matter of degree; the Tactics rank is generally a minor consideration, whereas the run is strongly affected by the need to earn lots of exp to 5 star the Experience rank. Therefore, comparatively, you're going to focus on experience gain much more than turn count. Therefore, comparatively, Isadora's strengths are significantly dampened whereas her weakness are significantly enhanced. These are not absolute rank difficulty dynamics but the relative differences are still pretty large.

One thing I will say is that I don't extend this logic to every prepromote. Marcus, for instance, is only slightly worse than in an unranked run, because he can save a lot of turns in chapters with low EXP/funds so that these turns can be "spent" in more lucrative chapters. I'm just talking about Isadora's situation.

With that said, I recognize that my ranked play is not the gold standard. Indeed, I have completed runs with experience surpluses and I probably could have made things a little easier on myself if I used Isadora a little more. That being said, there were characterizations of Isadora's strengths outlined in this thread, which I agree with generally, that I felt needed to be reassessed in the context of a ranked run because they significantly affect Isadora's comparative performance in such a run.

Here is the thing, 8 move and rescue/drop utility gives her the ability to get units that you want to get experience or to key positions to those positions.

Yeah you could use a promoted flier or cavalier but Isadora gives you 8 move with GBA Canto FREE.

Isadora is a very flexible unit with many different roles that she can potentially play as a transport who can also fight competently. Half of 16 is still not crazy slow.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Dr. C

[samthedigital]

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Like I said, it's very luck and chance.

Bartre will never have the time to be a good unit. If he gets blessed he's only going to start feeling it around the time he would normally promote, but it's not even worth promoting him given that Warrior is not a great class type compared to our other options.

I really don't like the TC's original question though. As I said before it's a vague question. How are we defining the worst character, and what is a meme unit? It's also largely going to depend on a person's playstyle given that there are several ways of achieving an S rank.

Edited October 14, 2019 by samthedigital

[Ranjin]

22 hours ago, Dr. C said:

Isadora is a very flexible unit with many different roles that she can potentially play as a transport who can also fight competently.

I don't disagree with this statement. In fact, I've made it clear that I don't disagree with this statement. I'm simply trying to scale her strengths and weaknesses given the specific parameters of a ranked run. 

22 hours ago, Dr. C said:

Half of 16 is still not crazy slow.

This is a strange thing to say when I have made a grand total of zero comments about Isadora's speed or con, let alone called her "crazy slow."

22 hours ago, Dr. C said:

Here is the thing, 8 move and rescue/drop utility gives her the ability to get units that you want to get experience or to key positions to those positions.

Yeah you could use a promoted flier or cavalier but Isadora gives you 8 move with GBA Canto FREE.

Yes, 8 move "FREE"  is better than 7 move, but having the ability to earn experience is much much better than not having it in a ranked run. Again, the significance of the movement advantage scales differently when analyzed in this particular context. Put another way, I'd rather have a unit that can earn experience AND facilitate other units earning experience than have 1 extra move flexibility for rescue/drop or clearing the chapter early.

[Dr. C]

3 hours ago, Ranjin said:

I don't disagree with this statement. In fact, I've made it clear that I don't disagree with this statement. I'm simply trying to scale her strengths and weaknesses given the specific parameters of a ranked run. 

This is a strange thing to say when I have made a grand total of zero comments about Isadora's speed or con, let alone called her "crazy slow."

Yes, 8 move "FREE"  is better than 7 move, but having the ability to earn experience is much much better than not having it in a ranked run. Again, the significance of the movement advantage scales differently when analyzed in this particular context. Put another way, I'd rather have a unit that can earn experience AND facilitate other units earning experience than have 1 extra move flexibility for rescue/drop or clearing the chapter early.

Scaling her strengths and weaknesses is fair.  I don’t get the impression you are bashing Isadora by no means. I just feel you are undervaluing her.

regarding the point of Isadora’s speed, yes it’s true you did not address Isadora’s speed at all. I simply was bringing up a new point to bolster my position. It was not my intent to put words in your mouth. “Not crazy slow” is my words not yours and I’m sorry for the confusion there as it was not my intention to make you feel misrepresented.

Regarding what you are saying about Isadora vs unpromoted cavaliers. It is true that earning more experience does give Kent, Sain, and Lowen. considerable edge in ranked runs but you might want to rotate out your cavaliers for infantry units because you can afford to in which case Isadora’s utility comes in handy where you don’t intend on feeding acavaliers kills.

[samthedigital]

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Regarding what you are saying about Isadora vs unpromoted cavaliers. It is true that earning more experience does give Kent, Sain, and Lowen. considerable edge in ranked runs but you might want to rotate out your cavaliers for infantry units because you can afford to in which case Isadora’s utility comes in handy where you don’t intend on feeding acavaliers kills.

Generally speaking fliers do that job better. In a ranked playthrough you want your cavalry to be able to perform combat tasks and help keep infantry units keep up at the same time. That's the point Ranjin was making. The fact that she can take a Cavalier's place instead of spending money promoting them is the important thing to note though. It's not particularly efficient to promote many cavaliers, and while Isadora's combat isn't stellar it is free. In a ranked playthrough it is more helpful to be able to leave an enemy alive for something else to kill it anyway.

To me Isadora is pretty similar to an unranked playthrough. Serra is probably one of the only units that I would rank lower than her in an unranked playthrough that I would value more than her in a ranked one. There might be another notable unit or two that I'm not thinking of at the moment, but it's not really that different. Isadora isn't exactly brilliant, but she isn't relegated to gaining some experience against specific enemies and then getting benched. That's why I would personally still value her over units like Dart, Bartre, Dorcas, Lyn, and Guy to name a few.

Edited October 17, 2019 by samthedigital

[Florete]

On 10/15/2019 at 12:19 PM, Ranjin said:

Yes, 8 move "FREE"  is better than 7 move, but having the ability to earn experience is much much better than not having it in a ranked run. Again, the significance of the movement advantage scales differently when analyzed in this particular context. Put another way, I'd rather have a unit that can earn experience AND facilitate other units earning experience than have 1 extra move flexibility for rescue/drop or clearing the chapter early.

Oddly enough, I think you're actually overrating the experience rank. Yeah, the run largely revolves around it and you need to rotate units around and feed them kills, but not every enemy will be killed for 30 exp. You need units around who are just able to kill things even if they don't get much experience out of each kill. Is Harken a bad unit in a ranked run? He doesn't get much experience and he doesn't even have Isadora's horse utility. What about Pent? He has staff utility, but Priscilla and Serra exist and get more experience than him. Promoted staff experience is weak and the high ranking staves that actually do give exp are pretty limited, so what's Pent got to offer?

If exp is so important Isadora should be better than Harken and Pent because she 1) starts at a lower level, 2) has horse utility (which isn't use-limited like staves), and 3) is better than them at not killing enemies so that a lower-level unit can get the kill. Do you agree with this?

[Ranjin]

6 hours ago, Florete said:

Oddly enough, I think you're actually overrating the experience rank. Yeah, the run largely revolves around it and you need to rotate units around and feed them kills, but not every enemy will be killed for 30 exp. You need units around who are just able to kill things even if they don't get much experience out of each kill. Is Harken a bad unit in a ranked run? He doesn't get much experience and he doesn't even have Isadora's horse utility. What about Pent? He has staff utility, but Priscilla and Serra exist and get more experience than him. Promoted staff experience is weak and the high ranking staves that actually do give exp are pretty limited, so what's Pent got to offer?

If exp is so important Isadora should be better than Harken and Pent because she 1) starts at a lower level, 2) has horse utility (which isn't use-limited like staves), and 3) is better than them at not killing enemies so that a lower-level unit can get the kill. Do you agree with this?

I'm not talking about the experience rank in a vacuum, I'm discussing it in relation to the other ranks. Most of what I am saying about Isadora has to do with the fact that her advantages scale lower due to the associated rank (Tactics) being easier and her disadvantages scale higher due to the associated rank (Experience) being harder. I'm not saying the experience rank is extremely difficult.

You do make an interesting point about Harken and Pent. I will give it some more thought, but as to your parting query,

1) Her lower level doesn't actually make her gain experience that much faster given that she is still promoted and faces lower level enemies from recruitment.

2) Horse utility is much more useful in an efficiency run. In a ranked run, it's great, but the Tactics rank is pretty forgiving. Staff use is slightly better in a ranked run because more units are more likely to be exposed to damage in order to earn experience, but I suppose it's still not better than a horse.

3) This mostly applies to Player Phase because she does not have great durability, so this advantage is pretty small. Also, as you say, 

7 hours ago, Florete said:

You need units around who are just able to kill things even if they don't get much experience out of each kill.

and Harken and Pent do this better than Isadora.

Thus, I am not able to put Isadora clearly above Harken and Pent based on these parameters (and I realize you were asking rhetorically).

On 10/15/2019 at 6:40 PM, Dr. C said:

I’m sorry for the confusion there as it was not my intention to make you feel misrepresented.

No trouble, I said what I said in good humor. 

[Florete]

5 hours ago, Ranjin said:

Most of what I am saying about Isadora has to do with the fact that her advantages scale lower due to the associated rank (Tactics) being easier and her disadvantages scale higher due to the associated rank (Experience) being harder.

The issue I have with this statement is that, like you said, the experience rank doesn't exist in a vacuum. If we didn't have a tactics rank, exp would be way easier because we could take as much time as we wanted killing all reinforcements and abusing arena. The two go hand in hand, so it's not quite right to treat one as significantly more important or harder than the other. Basically, at the same time you need units who can gain experience, you also need units who can clear maps at a reasonably quick pace.

5 hours ago, Ranjin said:

and Harken and Pent do this better than Isadora.

I agree with this. I personally consider them better than Isadora in a ranked run. But I consider Isadora to be merely average, not bad.

[samthedigital]

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If we didn't have a tactics rank, exp would be way easier because we could take as much time as we wanted killing all reinforcements and abusing arena.

There's at least a 100 turn buffer for the tactics rank, so it's not much of an "if". As I said earlier there are many different ways of playing the game to achieve an S rank. Isadora is one of those units that might be more or less useful depending on how someone goes about getting an S rank; it makes it impossible to rate her objectively.

Edited October 18, 2019 by samthedigital

[samthedigital]

how am I getting double posts, ugh

Edited October 18, 2019 by samthedigital

[Ranjin]

On 10/18/2019 at 3:07 AM, Florete said:

The issue I have with this statement is that, like you said, the experience rank doesn't exist in a vacuum. If we didn't have a tactics rank, exp would be way easier because we could take as much time as we wanted killing all reinforcements and abusing arena. The two go hand in hand, so it's not quite right to treat one as significantly more important or harder than the other. Basically, at the same time you need units who can gain experience, you also need units who can clear maps at a reasonably quick pace.

I agree with this. I personally consider them better than Isadora in a ranked run. But I consider Isadora to be merely average, not bad.

If we didn't have a Tactics rank then this whole conversation goes off the rails. But to your point, given the number of turns allowed to complete the game, I would generally rather have units that can earn significant experience per turn than a unit that can proceed through much of the chapter per turn. There is a balance struck between the two ranks, but the balance seems to favor Experience significantly. But, again, I recognize there are many ways to S-Rank, and so it's hard to make these judgments when different players are getting the same outcome regardless of their styles of play. 

I don't deny Isadora's strengths, I just weighed in because I felt there were statements of her general utility that should be looked at differently in the context of a ranked run. I named several characters that I think are worse than her, and I outlined an analytic framework for adding more units to that list.