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This update changed Bernadetta's support with Byleth

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Well, not like I was angry to begin with, but I suppose I shouldn't be too upset if it really was an attempt to be more faithful.

Still, I feel like the old translation was better. To me, it felt like a better explanation for Bernie's fear of people.

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4 hours ago, daisy jane said:

 

isn't that splitting hairs?

the most egrious part is "Tied to a chair."

regardless if "submissive" and "all day" is gone - doesn't change the fact that Bernadetta was tied to a chair by her father to be a good wife.


(i will add - i don't like the change. but to say it's censorship - i'm not sure that' the right word in this context). i don't get why it was done. 

Maybe because it was a bit too much. I mean, just saying "tied to a chair" is enough to cause a trigger in actual abuse victims. The point is still there, it's just not a graphic

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2 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Except we do not actually know that censorship had anything to do with this. In fact, that explanation seems really far-fetched. They are okay with her being tied up by her father but have a problem with her being "challenged to be silent"? That makes no sense. So censorship most likely isn't the reason here.

Exactly. Hence me pointing out we'd need to see if there were any other script changes. It's a change to make the whole thing more tame. How is it not censoring it?

Also, as I brought up, "challenged to be silent" could correlate to the Japanese script of "discipline me". Since both can be interpreted to mean that she should behave. So removing it means you are taking out something that was in the Japanese script.

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11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Just because the change ended up making the script more accurate to the Japanese one doesn't exclude that it was done also for censorship. We'd still need to find out if there were other script changes and see why those were changed to really have an answer.

I don't disagree with that! I'm used to "censorship" referring to changing the original JP text, so at the very least I don't think it's that type, that's all! I don't have the credentials or knowledge to know if it is any other sort. xD

7 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Except we do not actually know that censorship has anything to do with this. In fact, that explanation seems really far-fetched. They are okay with her being tied up by her father but have a problem with her being "challenged to be silent"? That makes no sense. So censorship most likely isn't the reason here.

It's a bit of a silly mystery... one we may never have the answer to.

9 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Well in any case it's good that you can translate stuff for the community... oh boy imagine if this got out of hand and then protests... petitions and on and on started poping up from misinformed people complaining about... actually what is this called? Relocalization?

 

That's what I'm here for! I happened upon this thread (as it was on the sidebar on serenes) when looking for something completely different, so I thought I should quickly contribute what I could to help quell any misunderstandings!

14 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It's delightful to see you again @Kirokan:Lilina:

I'm not yet into Three Houses, but I couldn't pass by this board and glimpse over a good non-spoilers textual controversy. To see you here and help resolve it so fast is serendipitous. Thank you!

It's nice to see you are around too! I'm still doing comparisons so this may be an interesting thing to write on tonight in case others potentially think it is a translation change...

(And still working on wanting to look into more Tellius stuff too!)

Edited by Kirokan

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4 minutes ago, Kirokan said:

I don't disagree with that! I'm used to "censorship" referring to changing the original JP text, so at the very least I don't think it's that type, that's all! I don't have the credentials or knowledge to know if it is any other sort. xD

Oh, I wasn't referring to you. It was more of a general statement, considering some still view the change in the English script as not censorship, despite that it can still fall under the definition of.

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6 minutes ago, Kirokan said:

That's what I'm here for! I happened upon this thread (as it was on the sidebar on serenes) when looking for something completely different, so I thought I should quickly contribute what I could to help quell any misunderstandings!

It's good to have you here to provide some concrete information. Accusations of "censorship" can make things turn really ugly, really fast these days.

Edited by BrightBow

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9 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

It's good to have you here to provide some concrete information. Accusations of "censorship" can turn really ugly, really fast these days.

I totally think the Japanese version of Three Houses probably did have some minor script changes before it was transferred to 8-4 to localize the script since the game did get released at the same time as Japan did. I mean, there are a few English lines from Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia were went unused like recruitable Berkut and Fernand were planned as well as Alm and Mycen were moaning to Celica's unused perma-death or beaten Casual Mode defeat since the game did have 3 month time jump. I don't think someone from Nintendo of Japan had reviewed the entire script to check it and finalize it in Fire Emblem: Three Houses.

Edited by King Marth 64

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13 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Oh, I wasn't referring to you. It was more of a general statement, considering some still view the change in the English script as not censorship, despite that it can still fall under the definition of.

Oh no worries! I just wanted to ensure people were aware that I do not really have much say in this beyond what I provided. : )

11 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

It's good to have you here to provide some concrete information. Accusations of "censorship" can make things turn really ugly, really fast these days.

I try my best, considering past issues and messes that have come about!

6 minutes ago, King Marth 64 said:

I totally think the Japanese version of the script possibly had minor changed before it was transferred to 8-4 to localize the script since the game did get released at the same time as Japan did. I mean, there are a few English lines from Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia went unused such as recruitable Berkut and Fernand were planned as well as Alm and Mycen were moaning to Celica's unused death.

That I wouldn't know, as I have no way to access any pre-release scripts... xD But... I don't think 8-4 worked on this game at all? To my knowledge it was NOA's internal Treehouse? I don't see it on 8-4's gameography. I know Valentia was, but the first line there is a little vague?

Edited by Kirokan

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Not too happy with the change, even if it is more faithful to the original translation. I know localization typically gets flak for changing things (mostly for the worse), but sometimes the localization team can enrich the experience instead. If I remember right, Splatoon went full crazy in the localization while it was more standard in JP.

From what I hear on Reddit, the change is universal across all titles for the English translation / voiceover. The focus may be due to the Australian Rating Board since it's probably easier to make a sweeping change than try to create a specific version for players in a specific region. (Also, the Switch is Region Free, but I wonder why they can't just make an Australia region and just apply the changes if that region is selected, instead of being a blanket change.)

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The new line seems a little closer to the literal meaning in Japanese, but I still feel like it has less impact than either the original English version of the line or the literal translation. Given that the change just lessens the impact it has, but doesn't really change what happened to her it feels... Kind of pointless? Not a fan of it.

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Whether they changed it because they wanted to be more faithful to the japanese version, or because they felt it was too explicit, I still don't think it was really necessary. In the overseas version, they just wrote explicitly what the player was induced to think. And there are several other characters whose tragic and disturbing past is written just as explicitly. But I don't think they changed all their dialogues.

And at the age of 12, I think all the teenagers are taught at school, during history lessons, how the society worked in periods like the Middle Ages, where the strong always trampled the weak...

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5 hours ago, BrightBow said:

In any case, I'm just saying, let's please be more careful with accusations of censorship. Especially when there may be far more mundane explanations for this.

... you realize it was a joke, right?  I didn't actually think he's on drugs, nor would I attribute these kinds of decisions to any single individual - that's how you get BS like the one artist for Mass Effect Andromeda getting harassed like crazy.

1 hour ago, PrincessAlyson said:

Agreed. I play on casual and quite like character interactions. This change lessens the impact of Bernadetta's abuse IMO. A small change, but ultimately a bad move. I'm not a fan of it.

It does dampen the impact a bit.  Sure, being tied to a chair is horrible regardless, but the idea that she was tied there all day, was forced to be quiet in all that time, and that it was to train her to be submissive to the desires of a husband gave some context to her situation.  It wasn't this completely psychotic idea to make her just sit there to be a "good wife", it was an influence of societal standards to make her into the kind of wife who'd never challenge her husband's wishes.  With this edited dialogue, it just makes her father seem crazy, as opposed to crazed by the desire to expand his noble house's influence through his daughter's marriage and going to great lengths to ensure she wouldn't ruin such a status.

I guess what I'm saying is it made it seem all the more realistic a scenario.  Obviously there are psychotic parents and spouses out there who abuse their loved ones by tying them to chairs or whatever, but... I dunno.  The context and reasoning behind the abuse makes it seem a more likely scenario in Fódlan - like this kind of thing wouldn't have just happened to Bernadetta.  And it gives further weight to Edelgard's cause to topple the nobility.

 

In regards to the original script being more or less like this, it's not the job of a localization to do a 1-to-1 translation of a script.  The original Resident Evil was a 1-to-1 translation in many respects, not only of the script but also the acting, which resulted in the dialogue that game is now infamous for.  It isn't necessary for localizations to stay 100% true to the original script, and sometimes it's even detrimental.

In regards to the Australia deal, they could've just had it be censored there like how Fallout 3 was censored in Germany.  There was no need to extend this to the western world.

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4 hours ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I heard some theories that the line got changed due to Australian ratings. Game comes out there the 20th

Uhh, we got the game on the same day as the rest of the world - and indeed earlier than most due to time zones. 😉

Not sure where the theory could have come from. Yeah, there's a certain reputation for strictness but most controversies were because back in the day, the maximum rating a videogame could have was a hard 15+ restriction. If a game exceeded what was permissible under that rating, then it was banned. For several years now though, we've had a 18+ restriction added so now video game classification matches movie classification.

That said, the ratings board probably still frowns on two of the most common elements to fall foul of. One is the positive portrayal of real-life narcotics (this is why Fallout has Med-X instead of Morphine by the way), and the other is depiction of sexual violence. Somehow I don't think Bernadetta's support conversation falls under "depiction of sexual violence"...

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3 hours ago, Kirokan said:

So it may actually be a case of where the new translation is more accurate to the original... xD whether or not that's "better" or "necessary" is up to you. : )

Big disagree on that this makes it more accurate to the original Japanese lines.

The previous translation was wrong, but it was wrong because Bernadetta never says "submissive," and also never says her father left her in the chair all day challenging her to be quiet. This is a case of mistranslation, but for the most part everything else about the original translation is correct. It also, more importantly, carries the emotional weight of the original scene. Her father isn't depicted as "kind of a jerk," he's depicted as extremely controlling and money hungry.

The new translation basically opts to half translate the original text and then just leave it there. The new translation completely ignores the part about Bernadetta being disciplined all day and all night (四六時中躾けられて) which is a major part in seeing what kind of person Bernadetta's dad is. He's the type of guy who wouldn't leave her alone, and not in a good way. To top it off, the new translation makes it seem like all Bernadetta cares to mention is being tied to a chair, which isn't really enough for the player to go off on.

The original Japanese lines mention being tied to the chair and constantly disciplined. The mistake in the original translation is that it translated the "disciplined all day and night" part somewhat incorrectly, and that's it. The mistake in the new translation is that it straight up omits that part completely - it attempts to be more correct by just not translating.

Quote

椅子に縛り付けられて四六時中躾けられて、

とにかく良い相手と結婚しろって。。。。。。

This is the original text.

What's important here is that you also listen to Bernadetta's voice actress as she says this line. She pauses and has a small hesitation before going from the first line to the second. The second line begins with "とにかく" which is basically the English equivalent of saying "anyway." In Japanese, the bit of hesitation she has in this line is like her remembering all the horrible things she went through and catching herself from continuing on for too long, and instead of reciting everything in her tragic past before she can get lost in it, she cuts back to the point.

The new English translation fails to convey this. That, combined with the fact that it just opts to not translate 1/4th of her lines that put a lot of context to her father's actions, there's no way I would consider this new translation more accurate.

Edited by Pentao

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Seems like this subject is already being talked about in Twitter and Reddit.

Speaking of Reddit, it seems they’ve been talking about this specific thread.

Though I don’t get why the OP of the thread is apologizing. Seems like they’re mentioning you @Kirokan, though it doesn’t seem to be anything malicious.

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2 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

It does dampen the impact a bit.  Sure, being tied to a chair is horrible regardless, but the idea that she was tied there all day, was forced to be quiet in all that time, and that it was to train her to be submissive to the desires of a husband gave some context to her situation.  It wasn't this completely psychotic idea to make her just sit there to be a "good wife", it was an influence of societal standards to make her into the kind of wife who'd never challenge her husband's wishes.  With this edited dialogue, it just makes her father seem crazy, as opposed to crazed by the desire to expand his noble house's influence through his daughter's marriage and going to great lengths to ensure she wouldn't ruin such a status.

These are my thoughts exactly! Thank you. It's the fact that her father abused her this way to mold her into a obedient wife just so he could have higher status that really hammered in Bernie's situation and how terrible her home life was. It's the reason she's so mentally messed and felt quite realistic. The new support keeps some of that, but not enough for that kind of context. The word "submissive" really spoke volumes in the original support by adding societal connotations to it, as women in the time period FE emulates really were treated terribly while being forced to adhere to strict standards of obedient behavior. It (hopefully) made the reader realize just how horrible Bernadetta's father is.

Now I'm not sure if this was censorship or not, but either way, I still disagree with the decision to change it to this.

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19 minutes ago, PrincessAlyson said:

These are my thoughts exactly! Thank you. It's the fact that her father abused her this way to mold her into a obedient wife just so he could have higher status that really hammered in Bernie's situation and how terrible her home life was. It's the reason she's so mentally messed and felt quite realistic. The new support keeps some of that, but not enough for that kind of context. The word "submissive" really spoke volumes in the original support by adding societal connotations to it, as women in the time period FE emulates really were treated terribly while being forced to adhere to strict standards of obedient behavior. It (hopefully) made the reader realize just how horrible Bernadetta's father is.

Now I'm not sure if this was censorship or not, but either way, I still disagree with the decision to change it to this.

Who knows if "censored" is the proper word, but I would say it being "watered down" would certainly be appropriate.

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Oh, definitely. I just wonder what the real reason for the change was. If they really thought people wanted less details in the supports and other non-plot dialogue, I'm pretty impressed...in a negative way. Most people enjoy the supports because they provide extra insight on the characters: their backgrounds, their likes and dislikes, their life experiences... Watering them down like this is quite silly.

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33 minutes ago, PrincessAlyson said:

Oh, definitely. I just wonder what the real reason for the change was. If they really thought people wanted less details in the supports and other non-plot dialogue, I'm pretty impressed...in a negative way. Most people enjoy the supports because they provide extra insight on the characters: their backgrounds, their likes and dislikes, their life experiences... Watering them down like this is quite silly.

That little piece with the developers might be some of the most stupid drivel I have ever heard in my life (and I've heard plenty of that).

Not once have I ever heard people complaining about "too much character detail". Seriously, whoever said such a thing needs to find a new series to follow, because characters have been a crucial part of Fire Emblem for a long time. Hell, characters are a large part of any RPG.

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3 hours ago, Pentao said:

Big disagree on that this makes it more accurate to the original Japanese lines.

The previous translation was wrong, but it was wrong because Bernadetta never says "submissive," and also never says her father left her in the chair all day challenging her to be quiet. This is a case of mistranslation, but for the most part everything else about the original translation is correct. It also, more importantly, carries the emotional weight of the original scene. Her father isn't depicted as "kind of a jerk," he's depicted as extremely controlling and money hungry.

The new translation basically opts to half translate the original text and then just leave it there. The new translation completely ignores the part about Bernadetta being disciplined all day and all night (四六時中躾けられて) which is a major part in seeing what kind of person Bernadetta's dad is. He's the type of guy who wouldn't leave her alone, and not in a good way. To top it off, the new translation makes it seem like all Bernadetta cares to mention is being tied to a chair, which isn't really enough for the player to go off on.

The original Japanese lines mention being tied to the chair and constantly disciplined. The mistake in the original translation is that it translated the "disciplined all day and night" part somewhat incorrectly, and that's it. The mistake in the new translation is that it straight up omits that part completely - it attempts to be more correct by just not translating.

This is the original text.

What's important here is that you also listen to Bernadetta's voice actress as she says this line. She pauses and has a small hesitation before going from the first line to the second. The second line begins with "とにかく" which is basically the English equivalent of saying "anyway." In Japanese, the bit of hesitation she has in this line is like her remembering all the horrible things she went through and catching herself from continuing on for too long, and instead of reciting everything in her tragic past before she can get lost in it, she cuts back to the point.

The new English translation fails to convey this. That, combined with the fact that it just opts to not translate 1/4th of her lines that put a lot of context to her father's actions, there's no way I would consider this new translation more accurate.

I think what I was trying to say is "accurate" would be in the purely literal sense to the idea being conveyed. I regret using this word without conveying the full idea of what I was trying to say. I feel the accuracy is still to the intent, that the father is cruel and a.) Tied her to a chair (with implied punishments/disciplining) and b.) all to make her a good wife (main idea to conversation).

But I do agree with the fact that the "all day and night" makes this a matter of "toned down" severity. In terms of "censorship," I do not know if toning down severity to this degree would really qualify, as that harsh idea (that it's still a terrible thing dad does in broad strokes and just not as in-your-face terrible) would qualify? If it does then I apologize, but I felt it didn't when it comes to what I think of in "censorship" for JP and ENG.

Instead of getting one localizer's interpretation (i.e. the "challenging" part), the reader is now left to imagine what the "things like" may have been for Bernie.

If we account for subtleties being lost and that severity, it may indeed come off differently, but the overall idea being conveyed is not hindered in that sense. Looking at it this way, it may be inconsequential. The article I wrote goes into a bit more detail of the thought behind it, and indeed, her emotion is key that the localization likely picked up on and "spelled out" in English to the player. This new one kind of (awkwardly) leaves it to the imagination.

Uh did any of that makes sense? xD (I liked the original localization a lot more!)

2 hours ago, Water Mage said:

Seems like this subject is already being talked about in Twitter and Reddit.

Speaking of Reddit, it seems they’ve been talking about this specific thread.

Though I don’t get why the OP of the thread is apologizing. Seems like they’re mentioning you @Kirokan, though it doesn’t seem to be anything malicious.

Yeah... it's kept me busy all day. I kind of regret getting involved... I think I'm poor at expressing things, and has me at an anxiety higher than Bernie's entire existence. xD I was happy that the ones on reddit were pretty cool about it though. ^^

Ah they're probably apologizing since there were some misunderstandings about who said what and such I think. I'm happy to see that though!

Edited by Kirokan

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What a beautiful waste of time and money. All of that work and trouble, just to delete some lines that destroy precious context for the backstory of a character. Wonderful. Truly, a genius move. 😛 

Ah....pisses me off.

20 hours ago, Dai said:

A friend of mine suggested that maybe it had something to do with the actions of Chris Niosi (the previous voice actor for male Byleth) hitting a bit too close to home for someone.

Regardless, this is a pretty unnecessary change.

Here's a funny thing. I legit though that Byleth's voice was already replaced by the time the game came out, but actually nope, it was replaced with a patch.
And they do it. Again. To make the background and dialogue of a character worse. What is wrong with them ?

Oh hey, Kirokan !
It's kind of hilariously ironic how it's closer to the japanese script. Still prefer the older one. People said it, a minor change, but boy does it break things.

...Oh shoot, there's also context in the original voice too ? This is getting too complicated for me. xD

9 hours ago, Kirokan said:

Yeah... it's kept me busy all day. I kind of regret getting involved... I think I'm poor at expressing things, and has me at an anxiety higher than Bernie's entire existence. xD I was happy that the ones on reddit were pretty cool about it though. ^^

Yeah, how dare you be a nice person.

Edited by B.Leu

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I had a look at the Australian Classification Board for explanation. I don't know if it's me or them, the site didn't really make it easy to find information, so I don't have a ton, but I had a look. (Do note that, having finished my fifth playthrough of the game today after getting the game a week late and taking a few days break between every playthrough after the second, the timing for it being the Australian's fault baffles me as much as anyone.)

The 2012 Guidelines for Computer Game Classification specify that an M-rated game (which Three Houses is) may have themes that fit the following:

Quote

The treatment of themes may have a moderate sense of threat or menace, if justified by context.

The entry on Three Houses in the database (the database is usually pretty weird and I'm not sure how it works, but regardless) further breaks down Three Houses rating by listing Themes and Violence as having Moderate Impact, Language, Nudity and Sex as Mild Impact, and not having an entry for Drug Use. (These six elements are what the Classification Board makes judgements upon.)

Unfortunately, I do not believe the site has a report in greater detail, and I didn't notice anything about post-release modifications. The site's only 2019 reports are for Hellboy and Rocketman. The entry on Three Houses in the database I used lists a date of certification of 10th April 2019.

By the FAQ:

Quote

Does the Classification Board edit material that is submitted for classification?

No, the Classification Board does not cut material or direct that cuts be made to material. It classifies material in the form in which it is submitted. Sometimes, distributors modify material and submit it again for classification. This is their choice and their decision. Information relating to any modifications may be available from the distributor of the product. You can find out who the distributor of a product is by checking the classification database.

 

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So overall what just happened is censorship: changing good dialogue writing into bad dialogue writing. Proof that word by word translation is still not a good thing.

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Apparently another support was changed:

 

Looks like the idea that the support was changed to be more similar to the japanese version might be right, since this one doesn’t seem particularly controversial.

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