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What type of lord/tactician dynamic do you prefer?


Icelerate
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What type of lord/tactician dynamic do you prefer?  

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  1. 1. What type of lord/tactician dynamic do you prefer?

    • The lord dominates the discussion.
    • The lord and their advisor are both equally contributing
    • The tactician dominates the discussion.
    • There should be no tactical discussions.


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In almost all FE games, there is at least one lord who discusses strategy and tactics with an advisor. Different games have a different dynamic between the lord and the advisor.

In some cases, the lord is more knowledgeable, such as in FE6 with Roy being more in the right compared to Merlinus. In other cases its the other way around  such as in FE9/FE10 where Soren is contributing more towards strategy than Ike. They can also be equally smart such as in FE16 where Edelgard and Hubert show competence without one dominating the other. 

What type do you prefer and were there any particular cases you liked? 

Edited by Icelerate
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Definitely not the Merlinus route. I'm sure there are many ways to make Roy very smart but pairing him up with someone who's always wrong probably wasn't the best way. 

What's the most interesting position to take is if the lord and strategist compliment and contrast each other. A goody two shoes lord and a ruthless strategist. A more reckless lord with a cautious strategist, a lord who's extremely blunt with a strategist toils desperately to give him some good pr for once. 

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10 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Definitely not the Merlinus route. I'm sure there are many ways to make Roy very smart but pairing him up with someone who's always wrong probably wasn't the best way.

Basically how any scene in FE6 plays out:

Quote

Merlinus: Master Roy!  This is a horrible way to do things!  Would you please not reconsider?

Roy: I hear what you are saying, but I'm gonna still do things this way because I think it might be better.

Merlinus: Oh dear, the youth of these days...

[Roy does the thing and everything goes swimmingly]

Merlinus: Master Roy, you truly are a tactical genius!

Yeah, it wasn't really the best dynamic.  It set out to make Roy out to be some prodigy via the classic Sherlock route of making the protagonist able to perfectly logic his way through all the puzzles presented to him, but it instead just made Merlinus look like a doubting, cowardly fool.

 

Personally, I prefer when it's a journey for everyone involved - when both the protagonist and the mission control have their limited amount of knowledge and that's apparent.  Because otherwise one of them is going to end up looking incompetent.  When it's the lord that is knowledgeable, you get a situation like Merlinus x Roy where the former just looks dumb.  If it's that the tactician is knowledgeable, then it's a Mystery of the Emblem scenario, where Marth just seems woefully ignorant about things he really ought to not be ignorant about.

Though of course it's also a matter of context.  But generally speaking, I like when both characters are learning new things.

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It's difficult for me to say I favour one more than the others because there's merit to each side. I suppose I'd be best off ordering my preferences from favourite to least.


Equals: Chrom and Robin bounce off of each other very well and are a good example of equal treatment.

Tactician: You mentioned Soren and Ike who have this dynamic of mutual trust and understanding. They have entirely different specialties and use each other's specialties advantageously.

Lord: Roy's a big reason for this being so low on the list just because you get this massive chunk of dialogue between him and Merlinus and Roy both, always being right and always having the final say kinda detracts from Merlinus even needing to be there at all.

41 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm sure there are many ways to make Roy very smart but pairing him up with someone who's always wrong probably wasn't the best way.

Basically this. Lilina would've been more ideal to bounce things off of since she could call Roy out due to having studied with him. Or perhaps even Marcus due to his battle experience.

No tactical discussion: I... think this kinda goes without saying in a game about tactics and strategy...
 

45 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

What's the most interesting position to take is if the lord and strategist compliment and contrast each other. A goody two shoes lord and a ruthless strategist. A more reckless lord with a cautious strategist, a lord who's extremely blunt with a strategist toils desperately to give him some good pr for once. 

I like some of the suggestions here. This part in particular made me think back to how Robin determined that Elincia was a ruthless strategist and made me smile.

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I'd prefer if there were two tacticians (or councilors, or whoever is in that role - doesn't need to be a literal tactician), one that shows a more idealistic view and another that's more down-to-earth, somewhat like Soren and Titania or August and the other guy from Thracia. Bonus if the player can pick their choices after hearing their opinions.

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I think it would be really interesting to see an FE game where the lord is the tactician, and is in fact a rather poor fighter (at least at first). 

In general, I like when they're about equal. Tactical discussions are very good for FE stories, and making sure we get both the tactician's perspective and the lord's. Not only that, but the dynamic being equal gives us insight into how the two characters value each other. One reason I like Path of Radiance in particular is that these dynamics are shown not just between lord and tactician, but also among the different factions; highlighting the differences in the characters. 

In Petrine's first interaction with Ena, the dynamic is very much that of Petrine dominating the discussion, only for later interactions to have the discussion be almost equal; highlighting Petrine's newfound respect for Ena; respect that comes into play later when Ashnard orders Petrine to kill Ena.

Speaking of Ashnard, every interaction he has with his generals is very much dominated by him; highlighting that he controls them through fear and his position of command. He's a tyrant, and his subordinates fear disappointing him. There is only one general for which this is an exception: the Black Knight. His interaction with the Black Knight is very equal, with the Black Knight almost being the dominant one. This highlights how the Black Knight is not truly subservient, and Ashnard knows it; he's assisting Ashnard as part of his own hidden agenda, and Ashnard keeps him around because he's useful and because he's powerful. 

To be honest, I'd like to see FE games play with this dynamic more; maybe change the dynamic over the course of the story to highlight something about the characters. 

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5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I think it would be really interesting to see an FE game where the lord is the tactician, and is in fact a rather poor fighter (at least at first). 

 

Pretty sure Alfonse, Roy, Micaiah and Claude fit the bill.

I never viewed PoR's tactical discussions to be that great but that was a nice post and gave me some newfound respect for its writing. 

2 hours ago, Light Strategist said:

Equals: Chrom and Robin bounce off of each other very well and are a good example of equal treatment.

I haven't played Awakening but from what I've heard, Robin is far more tactically capable than Chrom. 

Also, how does Robin suggest Elincia is a ruthless tactician. 

To everyone talking about Roy and Merlinus' dynamic, what do you think about Micaiah and Izuka's considering she's always refuting him? 

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12 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Pretty sure Alfonse, Roy, Micaiah and Claude fit the bill.

I stopped playing Heroes quite early on, so I wouldn't know. But I thought the summoner (aka the player) was supposed to be the tactician. Haven't played Roy's game. Very true about Micaiah. She is very much her own tactician. I have yet to play Three Houses, as I do not yet have a Switch. 

 

12 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I never viewed PoR's tactical discussions to be that great but that was a nice post and gave me some newfound respect for its writing. 

Aw; thanks. Path of Radiance is my favourite FE game, and not just because Ike is my favourite FE protagonist. As an aspiring writer, I feel that Path of Radiance's story understands and appreciates certain fundamentals of storytelling that later FE games seemed to forget. 

 

12 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I haven't played Awakening but from what I've heard, Robin is far more tactically capable than Chrom. 

Yes; Robin is very much the more tactically-minded one. However, as Chrom is the one actually leading the group, he does sometimes contribute. Though honestly; most tactical discussion happens off-screen, as a lot of the suspense for Robin's plans in the game relies on the Unspoken Plan Guarantee trope (tell the plan to the audience beforehand and it'll fail; leave the audience wondering what it is and it'll succeed), so Awakening is missing a lot of tactical discussion compared to previous FE games. Mind you; it's not nearly as bad as Fates or Echoes in this regard, as there's practically no discussion of tactics or strategy of any kind in those two games. 

 

12 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Also, how does Robin suggest Elincia is a ruthless tactician. 

It's in one of the Awakening DLCs. I wouldn't use it as anything though as the Awakening DLC versions of past FE characters are more like caricatures based on the FE characters than actually representing those characters. 

Edited by vanguard333
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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

I stopped playing Heroes quite early on, so I wouldn't know. But I thought the summoner (aka the player) was supposed to be the tactician. Haven't played Roy's game. Very true about Micaiah. She is very much her own tactician. I have yet to play Three Houses, as I do not yet have a Switch. 

Well Alfonse is more of a strategist, and the one who calls the shots outside of battle. Inside? Yeah that looks like Kiran's doing it.

Roy is very much a tactician in FF6, with Merlinus acting as his (mostly ignored) advisor.

No comment on Three Houses.

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I think the tactician and lord being equals is the obviously the best dynamic. The only exception for me was in PoR with Soren. Soren could beat Robin in a tactical game while on drugs. Although no disrespect to Robin, they’re both brilliant in their own seperate ways. But...Soren. I would love to have another Soren in newer games. Soren’s just too dank. 

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I like the scenarios in which the lord is the tactician. Give us fewer Ephraims and more Claudes. 

 

And as for avatars, I think we could re-evaluate their role in the story. Perhaps we could roll the avatar into the retainer role, where they could support the lord but not overshadow them. And have them serve as the Jeigan. They could be one of the higher growth Jeigans like Seth, Titania, or Oifey, but in general, I really like the idea of a strong early game unit with a custom class. Make them around Seth's age where they could plausibly romance all of the legal-aged party members, but also be old enough to be experienced veterans.

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On 9/13/2019 at 11:10 PM, vanguard333 said:

I stopped playing Heroes quite early on, so I wouldn't know. But I thought the summoner (aka the player) was supposed to be the tactician. Haven't played Roy's game. Very true about Micaiah. She is very much her own tactician. I have yet to play Three Houses, as I do not yet have a Switch. 

 

Aw; thanks. Path of Radiance is my favourite FE game, and not just because Ike is my favourite FE protagonist. As an aspiring writer, I feel that Path of Radiance's story understands and appreciates certain fundamentals of storytelling that later FE games seemed to forget. 

 

Yes; Robin is very much the more tactically-minded one. However, as Chrom is the one actually leading the group, he does sometimes contribute. Though honestly; most tactical discussion happens off-screen, as a lot of the suspense for Robin's plans in the game relies on the Unspoken Plan Guarantee trope (tell the plan to the audience beforehand and it'll fail; leave the audience wondering what it is and it'll succeed), so Awakening is missing a lot of tactical discussion compared to previous FE games. Mind you; it's not nearly as bad as Fates or Echoes in this regard, as there's practically no discussion of tactics or strategy of any kind in those two games. 

 

It's in one of the Awakening DLCs. I wouldn't use it as anything though as the Awakening DLC versions of past FE characters are more like caricatures based on the FE characters than actually representing those characters. 

The summoner is the tactician but since he can't speak, Alfonse plays the role of narrating strategy so in a sense both of them are skilled in that regard. Three Houses is quite amazing from what I've seen of it. It'll probably be my favourite FE game once I play it. 

PoR isn't my favourite story but I can see why. Although there are works of art and fiction that actually break basic story telling rules that are supposedly amazing. I personally prefer a more ambitious story such as RD and 3H myself. Though PoR is tied with FE4 for me. 

2 hours ago, Etheus said:

I like the scenarios in which the lord is the tactician. Give us fewer Ephraims and more Claudes. 

Ephraim is his own tactician though. Though I think Claude is by far the smartest lord in the series and the only one I'd put on the same level as Robin and Soren. 

 

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18 hours ago, Icelerate said:

PoR isn't my favourite story but I can see why. Although there are works of art and fiction that actually break basic story telling rules that are supposedly amazing. I personally prefer a more ambitious story such as RD and 3H myself. Though PoR is tied with FE4 for me. 

When I say "fundamentals of storytelling", I don't mean narrative tropes or trends; I'm usually referring to certain important rules about character and story writing.

A lot of stories that people say break rules and are amazing because of it really break trends rather than rules. For example: Season 1 of Game of Thrones broke trends. Season 8 of Game of Thrones broke rules. One just has to look at how the two seasons are rated by audiences to see the difference. 

I like an ambitious story as well. Though, between a refined, good story and an ambitious story with issues, I would probably go for the refined story. I do like Radiant Dawn; it is my second-favourite FE game in terms of story. It definitely has a lot of strong points.

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