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Infantry or Cavalry magic users?


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By the end of my Black Eagles playthrough I had Hubert as a Dark Knight and Linhardt as a Holy Knight.  However, Linhardt felt a lot worse at doing his main job of healing due to newfound lack of both White Magic Uses x2 and White Magic Healing +10.  I still had Hanneman as a Warlock and Dorothea as a Gremory, but had I been able to make them Dark Knights they'd probably fare worse as long-range support fire with their Meteor uses reduced from 2 to 1.

I often hear that Mov is the best stat, and it's especially believable in this game, but is the loss of magical combat/healing capability really worth it for magic users?

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If they're a female unit that studies both reason and faith, Gremory is the best option.

If they're exclusively a white magic user, Bishop or Gremory are the best options.

If they're primarily a black/dark magic user or a male magic user that studies reason and faith, Dark Knight is the best option.

 

Basically, Dark Knight is the best option if you want a combat-oriented mage, while infantry classes are better if you want someone who can healbot/use utility spells.  The main reason is healbots almost always have long-range utility spells (some even have physic), and so they benefit more from x2 spell uses than they do from higher movement stats or boosted attack when using magic.  Meanwhile combat mages benefit more from boosted attack stats and movement so that they can fight on the front lines and quickly dispose of enemies.

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It all depends on the unit, and how you want to use them. To use some of the Golden Deer as examples...

Lysithea, for instance, you probably want in Gremory, for the extra Warp charge. On the offensive end, having extra uses of Dark Spikes and Luna are definitely appreciated, too. I can only see Dark Knight being preferable if you have a different dedicated warper (and want Lysithea in a purely offensive role), and aren't worried about running out of spell uses - in which case, the boosted move and darkfaire will serve her better.

Marianne, I actually think does best as a Holy Knight (it's also her easiest one to reach). 5 Physics are enough for most maps, and the horse gives her extra healing range. Plus extra range for casting Silence (3 uses). She may run out of offensive spell uses quickly, though (especially if you didn't raise her Reason, so in Marianne's case, Gremory might actually be the preferable offensive option.

Lorenz is practically built to be a Dark Knight, having all three proficiencies. Warlock could give him more uses, sure, while Dark Bishop has in-built Miasma and Fiendish Blow. For most maps, though, I think he'll want the extra mobility and canto, more than extra charges.

Hilda, if you're making her magical, would really appreciate the extra uses on Bolting and Thoron, so I'd call Gremory her best choice. Her strength should be high enough that a hybrid-offensive Mortal Savant or Dark Knight may not be out of the question, either. Although, losing ranged magic uses for weapon faires and slightly more move may not be the best trade.

TL;DR: Gremory (for women) and Warlock/Bishop (for men) may be preferable if you have super-useful low-use spells, like Warp and Bolting. Otherwise, put them on a horse. Mortal Savant... exists.

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Lorenz as a dark knight in my current run will be interesting because he hits hard with the glouster axe I grinder his ranks for (ng+) he carried over his dark Bishop skill and will start transferring his ranks from magic once he changes class. The tomefaire will help him more than extra uses as his magic is shaky but usable.

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Depends on what role you want them to serve in your army, I'd say.

Contrary to popular opinion, I find mobility to be grossly overrated in this game, compared to older titles, even if you're going for a low turn count. Mixed units are fine, so long as you can coordinate them effectively by taking care to send your horsies and fliers as far as they can go to reach enemies and objectives, while letting infantry push through the more immediate threats. Plus, infantry squads tend to be better at dealing with Demonic Beasts quickly. Training maps and some main story missions don't even need the extra mobility for you to get from one group of enemies or objectives to the next, and you'll even be rewarded with better growths by reclassing your cavalries into infantry for these maps. Generally if you're opting for a more mobile class but not making full use of that extra movement, it's excessive. They...might as well not have that extra mobility, if they don't actually make use of it on a particular map. 

Basically, a unit on a horse should be able to comfortably take multiple hits on enemy phase. If they can't, then that movement is prone to being wasted. But more on this later...

Holy Knight is a weird class, being that it is decidedly a damage oriented Faith class, but I liked it well enough on Marianne and as a fun side option for Bernidetta. I also intend to try it on Ferdinand in my current playthrough, since Nosferatu and the Faith damage bonus would pair well with his trait, keeping his topped off. I also agree that Linhardt gains little from the promotion to Holy Knight, even on just Easy Mode for my first playthrough, but now that I have Alert Stance on mine it might actually offer him the makings for a front line drain tank. Maybe... 

Dark Knight I see as being better for the magic users that can comfortably survive solo, deep into enemy ranks like Lorenz and Sylvain, since they are less constricted in where they can go with their newly acquired mobility, compared to the squishy mages that you might otherwise be tempted to slap a horse under, which will often lean more heavily on ally phase than enemy phase. Thus, again, wasting that great boon that is mobility, and having their stat growths suffer on top of it. The glass cannons i.e. Hubert, Hanneman, Annette, Lysithea, and Dorothea function fine squadding with like a War Master to push through the main enemy front and nuke beasts, while also supporting their more mobile allies from afar with Faith spells or Meteor. That being said, any male unit can acquire the Life Taker talent, which I think Hanneman and Hubert could really benefit from should you wish to have them function more like a Lorenz or Sylvain. 

This game does not punish you, or suddenly turn every map into a tedious slog if you don't turn every one of your units into a Wyvern Lord or cavalry. It only might become that way f you don't coordinate your units effectively, and shun potentially more optimal reclass options on a map-by-map basis.

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21 hours ago, TrueNoble said:

Depends on what role you want them to serve in your army, I'd say.

Contrary to popular opinion, I find mobility to be grossly overrated in this game, compared to older titles, even if you're going for a low turn count. Mixed units are fine, so long as you can coordinate them effectively by taking care to send your horsies and fliers as far as they can go to reach enemies and objectives, while letting infantry push through the more immediate threats. Plus, infantry squads tend to be better at dealing with Demonic Beasts quickly. Training maps and some main story missions don't even need the extra mobility for you to get from one group of enemies or objectives to the next, and you'll even be rewarded with better growths by reclassing your cavalries into infantry for these maps. Generally if you're opting for a more mobile class but not making full use of that extra movement, it's excessive. They...might as well not have that extra mobility, if they don't actually make use of it on a particular map. 

Basically, a unit on a horse should be able to comfortably take multiple hits on enemy phase. If they can't, then that movement is prone to being wasted. But more on this later...

Holy Knight is a weird class, being that it is decidedly a damage oriented Faith class, but I liked it well enough on Marianne and as a fun side option for Bernidetta. I also intend to try it on Ferdinand in my current playthrough, since Nosferatu and the Faith damage bonus would pair well with his trait, keeping his topped off. I also agree that Linhardt gains little from the promotion to Holy Knight, even on just Easy Mode for my first playthrough, but now that I have Alert Stance on mine it might actually offer him the makings for a front line drain tank. Maybe... 

Dark Knight I see as being better for the magic users that can comfortably survive solo, deep into enemy ranks like Lorenz and Sylvain, since they are less constricted in where they can go with their newly acquired mobility, compared to the squishy mages that you might otherwise be tempted to slap a horse under, which will often lean more heavily on ally phase than enemy phase. Thus, again, wasting that great boon that is mobility, and having their stat growths suffer on top of it. The glass cannons i.e. Hubert, Hanneman, Annette, Lysithea, and Dorothea function fine squadding with like a War Master to push through the main enemy front and nuke beasts, while also supporting their more mobile allies from afar with Faith spells or Meteor. That being said, any male unit can acquire the Life Taker talent, which I think Hanneman and Hubert could really benefit from should you wish to have them function more like a Lorenz or Sylvain. 

This game does not punish you, or suddenly turn every map into a tedious slog if you don't turn every one of your units into a Wyvern Lord or cavalry. It only might become that way f you don't coordinate your units effectively, and shun potentially more optimal reclass options on a map-by-map basis.

Dude I get that infantry is underused and have some cool abilities, but Dark Knight gets more Damage and more Movement, the two most important stats in this game. There is no reason to go Gremory, since the base spell uses are more than enough. Talking growths when your characters won't get much more levels past 30 is just nitpicking. Bishop MIGHT be better than Holy Knight in certain situations if you are using a character with low magic like Ignatz.

 

Mounted units were just poorly balanced in this game. If you want to play suboptimally, go for it, but pretending infantry is better is just fanciful thinking.

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4 hours ago, IzzyFresh said:

Dude I get that infantry is underused and have some cool abilities, but Dark Knight gets more Damage and more Movement, the two most important stats in this game. There is no reason to go Gremory, since the base spell uses are more than enough. Talking growths when your characters won't get much more levels past 30 is just nitpicking. Bishop MIGHT be better than Holy Knight in certain situations if you are using a character with low magic like Ignatz.

  

Mounted units were just poorly balanced in this game. If you want to play suboptimally, go for it, but pretending infantry is better is just fanciful thinking.

For healers, Bishop is objectively better than Holy Knight in every way that matters though. They get double of all their healing spells, most importantly Physic, and heal for 10 more on each heal. You don't need Movement if you have Physic and a half-decent Magic stat, so for someone like Ignatz (who should never be a mage anyway), Holy Knight would actually be better because he does have a bad Magic stat, so he needs mobility to reach with Physic. In any case, an actually good healer like Mercedes, Lindhardt, or Marianne should not ever be a Holy Knight because they should be using Physic quite a bit, especially on higher difficulties. 

I don't disagree about offensive mages though. Any of the standard mages have enough spells in their list that they don't need more. The only exceptions I would make are units like Dorothea who are bad at Riding. It isn't worth pidgeonholing a unit who sucks at something to make them kind of alright at something, especially on Maddening where you get significantly less Skill XP each week. However, this is an exception to the rule, and I think it's pretty clear that most offensive mages benefit much more from Dark Knight than Gremory. 

Saying that mounted units are always better than infantry is questionable though on higher difficulties. You can't just faceroll entire maps with Wyverns anymore. Enemies have significantly higher AS and Avoid, so doubling them is usually unlikely without excessive statboosters, and hitting them with Brave weapons is a risky proposition. Swordmasters cannot be doubled at all because they have Quick Riposte. This is where a War Master can be useful. They can reach Swordmasters and double them with Gauntlets, and with Killer Knuckles and innate Crit+20, chances are they can one round them. I'm not saying all infantry classes are good, but they do have niches that make them worth considering. 

Edited by LegendOfLoog
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On 9/14/2019 at 10:44 PM, Von Ithipathachai said:

By the end of my Black Eagles playthrough I had Hubert as a Dark Knight and Linhardt as a Holy Knight.  However, Linhardt felt a lot worse at doing his main job of healing due to newfound lack of both White Magic Uses x2 and White Magic Healing +10.  I still had Hanneman as a Warlock and Dorothea as a Gremory, but had I been able to make them Dark Knights they'd probably fare worse as long-range support fire with their Meteor uses reduced from 2 to 1.

I often hear that Mov is the best stat, and it's especially believable in this game, but is the loss of magical combat/healing capability really worth it for magic users?

I really like your post!  I think it depends on the level and one's playstyle.  Some levels canto feels right, and some it feels unnecessary.

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Honestly - Gremory is kinda meh. yeah you have double spell usage but you have 4 movement. 
if it wasn't for the fact that Mercedes (whom i'd argue is the best healer in the game) sucked at both lances and riding I'd probably make her a holy knight just for mobility. as it stands.

Marianne: Dancer (thus can use all magics and she's somewhat sturdy enough to be left behind + 6 movement). 
Dorothea (Dancer - same reason but i'd give her the shoes of the wind anyway) 
Linhardt, Lysithea. Dark Knight. +1 move from the horse, Black Magic Range 1. (Lin gets the Cadethus staff and Lysithea gets the Thyrsus staff so it just adds to their range).

i have to say. i've never felt that Lin's healing suffered (for me) or Ly's magical output. but that's just me. even though for 2 playthroughs now i ditched the entire team "Flight"  - having mages not be so behind, esp. when something can pop up behind them is really key for me)

 

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Just now, IzzyFresh said:

Mounted units were just poorly balanced in this game. If you want to play suboptimally, go for it, but pretending infantry is better is just fanciful thinking.

Never did I say infantry was strictly better in my post, nor was it an attack on cavalry or flier units, nor, I might add, a case of contrarianism for the sake for the sake of contrarianism. Simply that the movement stat is a tad bit overrated. I don't argue that either Infantry or Cavalry is strictly better than the other, except to say that overall Infantry are better at handling Demonic Beasts--namely War Masters, Gremories, and Snipers, working in tandem for the one turn kill. I merely am of the belief that the true impact of apparent changes to the basic map design philosophy, buffs to long range spellcasting, and introduction of demonic beasts as a mechanic are being ignored in favor of upholding classic notions about the value of movement range. With all these factors taken into account, it is absolutely possible for one to still clear what I'll call murder maps in 3/4/5 turns with a thoughtful mix and coordination of all different move types, if the issue lies in what is or is not optimal. Not only does Three Houses allow you to lean more Infantry-heavy without risking dragging out the battle, I do believe as stated above that there are some advantages to be gained from doing so.

This is also a good point, what with all those pesky Assassins running around:

Just now, LegendOfLoog said:

Saying that mounted units are always better than infantry is questionable though on higher difficulties. You can't just faceroll entire maps with Wyverns anymore. Enemies have significantly higher AS and Avoid, so doubling them is usually unlikely without excessive statboosters, and hitting them with Brave weapons is a risky proposition.

Still, without even talking about fliers, there's no denying that horse units are powerful, but a soloing Leonie, Lorenz or Ferdinand on a horse can often do the same job as an entire team of cavalry units; that is tanking and/or dodging multiple hits while steadily pushing into distant enemy ranks and chipping or killing on enemy phase, while constantly maintaining that forward push. Two at most, preferably that Support each other, is usually my limit. Meanwhile Infantry pushes a glut of enemies that's situated closer to where all your units started the map at, toward any demonic beasts and/or long range weapon fixtures (yes, these actually matter now) that are on the field. Maps in Three Houses are, more often than not, highly condensed, meaning less travel time between mobs of enemies. Less a distance to travel to reach objectives. More room to mix and match your unit movement ranges, while weighing the value of the extra movement with other perks they might gain from reclassing to something else for the time being.

Just now, IzzyFresh said:

Talking growths when your characters won't get much more levels past 30 is just nitpicking.

My main reason for mentioning growths (with the expectation that one would argue this exact point against it) is that when you put a unit on a horse even on maps where that extra movement and canto are not wholly needed, you are only punishing the unit for however many levels you have left to use them for. This is certainly less important when it comes to end game horse promotes like Lorenz, but the point I make here actually mostly applies to standard Cavalier characters from early on in the game. For example, Ferdinand and Sylvain, whom I only change from a Mercenary/Hero or Mage/Warlock respectively, into a Paladin when I absolutely need the movement. Such as for the battles at Gronder Field, or those large fort maps. When there's two corners of the map and a central objective for the infantry to seize, or a fleeing Death Knight to catch up with. ;0

Just now, IzzyFresh said:

There is no reason to go Gremory, since the base spell uses are more than enough.

It's true that the 2x Magic on Gremory is strictly a luxury, but I will say that if we're comparing class traits I'd still say it's a more valuable luxury than slightly higher damage on a Lysithea / Annete / Doro that already oneshots anything. The 2x is also nice for Warp abuse strats on Lysithea, and more Meteors on Doro and, again, with how squishy these three are, I don't think the extra movement range is as useful when one is mostly only using it to attack on ally phase, rather than both phases. Such as how Dark Knights like Sylvain and Lorenz are able to. And if they're being kept safe behind a defensive wall, such as a War Master, the extra movement doesn't really have a defensive application either. Of course, this is all assuming someone plays with their army split up between infantry and cavalry, as I do, but in the case of having everyone on a horse keeping astride of one another as they all push in the same direction, I can see the value of it. Yet, I still don't see how this strategy would be inherently more efficient than the one I've described outside of a few select maps.

Just now, IzzyFresh said:

Dude I get that infantry is underused and have some cool abilities, but Dark Knight gets more Damage and more Movement, the two most important stats in this game.

Wha!? I thought Speed was the most important stat in the game! O:< And yet, even a speed-screwed Sylvain (he's recuperating now, don't worry) getting doubled still takes far less damage than a single hit on an Ignatz, and he still manages to kill in one attack because of his Strength combined with his trait effect. A Lorenz with far less Magic and Speed than the other Thyrsus user still being able to one shot everything, often doubling, but it's really because of his fat HP stat that he can rack up multiple mook kills in one enemy phase instead of just one kill on each ally phase!

Context is important. A unit's intended role is important. Different stats become more or less important as these two factors vary.

HP and Luck are extra valuable stats for a War Master Raphael, because of his trait. Luck for higher activation chance, and HP for higher percentage heals from it. Combined with Quick Riposte, this unique stat interaction is what makes him Godly late game moreso than just his raw damage.

DEX matters more on an archer that learns Deadeye than those that do not.

And to add to this, I believe that movement range even matters more or less to different units serving different roles. And, while one might argue it's better to just give every unit more mobility anyway, it's no longer a strict requirement to play optimally, and playing with some Infantry sprinkled in does still have some benefits to take into account.

TL;DR: (because if brevity is the soul of wit, then call me witless)

Just now, kremelover said:

Some levels canto feels right, and some it feels unnecessary.

 

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1 hour ago, TrueNoble said:

Still, without even talking about fliers, there's no denying that horse units are powerful, but a soloing Leonie, Lorenz or Ferdinand on a horse can often do the same job as an entire team of cavalry units; that is tanking and/or dodging multiple hits while steadily pushing into distant enemy ranks and chipping or killing on enemy phase, while constantly maintaining that forward push. Two at most, preferably that Support each other, is usually my limit. Meanwhile Infantry pushes a glut of enemies that's situated closer to where all your units started the map at, toward any demonic beasts and/or long range weapon fixtures (yes, these actually matter now) that are on the field. Maps in Three Houses are, more often than not, highly condensed, meaning less travel time between mobs of enemies. Less a distance to travel to reach objectives. More room to mix and match your unit movement ranges, while weighing the value of the extra movement with other perks they might gain from reclassing to something else for the time being.

Unfortunately, the tanking/dodging multiple hits thing isn't really true on higher difficulties. Enemy units have ridiculous AS and insane Attack. I'm around Chapter 18 right now, and seeing enemies with AS in the 30s is just a regular thing now. The other problem with your assertion is that you're not using Canto and Movement simply to reach objectives in Three Houses. The primary use for me has been to hit and run with Canto because enemies are actually threatening on Maddening, and there are a lot of them. Even just having the ability to re position your units to set up Linked Attacks makes Canto really nice to have. I also fail to see why a team of infantry would be better at reaching siege weapons than a team of cavalry considering cavalry have higher movement to actually reach them. And it's a bit of a generalization to say that maps in this game are condensed when you have maps like Gronder Field, Enbarr, Fort Merceus, and Ailell that are spread out pretty far. Cavalry can reach groups of enemies on these maps quicker than Infantry can which is a point in their favor. 

Now, if we consider all of this true, then Infantry units have to have something to set them apart. In the case of certain Advanced classes, I would actually say they're better on Maddening than they were before. Hunter's Volley can be really nice because of the inflated AS of many units and as a way to handily deal with Quick Riposte Swordmasters. Fierce Iron Fist is similar, although I'd still consider War Master to be better generally, especially at killing Demonic Beasts. Bishops have White Magic Heal +10 which is really nice for any primary healer like Lindhardt, Mercedes, or Marianne. There may be an argument for Astra as well, but I've never used it personally. Outside of these few cases, I don't really think Infantry are that good on the whole. Mortal Savants are not particularly good for Sword users or Reason users, and Gremories lack the healing of Bishops or the mobility of Dark Knights. 

Building up the skill levels to reclass back and forth isn't easy either. You have a finite amount of instructing and skill experience, and if you spread your units too thin, they'll become weaker by generalizing, not stronger. This is especially true on Maddening because the bar to be a good unit is significantly higher than on Hard. The early game is brutal, and any units who survive it can't afford to waste their Skill XP (which is reduced on this gamemode) on spreading out their weapon ranks. Magic units specifically aren't really that great off a horse. Warlocks and Dark Bishops are both unimpressive compared to Dark Knight because of an effective 4 Move gap and lack of Canto. Holy Knight is mostly the opposite because offensive Faith magic isn't very good in this game, so Bishop or Gremory is always better for most Faith units. So while other classes may have a bit more diversity, magic units really don't. There's a clear favorite for most of them here. 

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23 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Unfortunately, the tanking/dodging multiple hits thing isn't really true on higher difficulties.

I play on Hard mode, and it's fine, although I do notice the difference. Especially with those assassins! I'm yet to plunge into Maddening mode, but certainly will after this playthrough.

23 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

The other problem with your assertion is that you're not using Canto and Movement simply to reach objectives in Three Houses.

For the record, I do count groups of enemies placed far across the map as objectives. So yes, my horses and fliers are always pushing distant objectives, while my infantry squad wades through prolonged fights, especially against demonic beasts, and throwing out long range Meteors or Physics to support the horses from time to time. It is this level of coordination is what allows a mixed army to perform just as efficiently--if not moreso--as a move stacked one.

23 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

The primary use for me has been to hit and run with Canto because enemies are actually threatening on Maddening, and there are a lot of them.

Sounds fun. Like I'll be making more use of Armoreds as well as War Masters, and having horsemen land finishing blows on targets that they soften during enemy phase, then canto out. It's not as if one can't be flexible. Some call this 'turtling,' but the key is to never have your Armored attack on ally phase, only on enemy phase, and always move it forward if its one of those maps designed with a destination. Basically acting as a much slower, sturdier horseman with no canto, at least until they attain Great Knight. I care to state this because don't find using Armoreds in this way to be particularly slow, especially in scenarios where you can't rely on your horsemen to do the job, and thus not make use of their higher movement range anyway because you're forced to position them more carefully, away from too much aggro.

23 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Now, if we consider all of this true, then Infantry units have to have something to set them apart. In the case of certain Advanced classes, I would actually say they're better on Maddening than they were before. Hunter's Volley can be really nice because of the inflated AS of many units and as a way to handily deal with Quick Riposte Swordmasters. Fierce Iron Fist is similar, although I'd still consider War Master to be better generally, especially at killing Demonic Beasts. Bishops have White Magic Heal +10 which is really nice for any primary healer like Lindhardt, Mercedes, or Marianne. There may be an argument for Astra as well, but I've never used it personally. Outside of these few cases, I don't really think Infantry are that good on the whole.

Aha! Here you've made a fine case for most of the final form Infantry classes, and I agree with everything you've said here! And furthermore, I'm pleased to hear that some classes have achieved greater relevancy in the new difficulty, just as I had predicted they would.

Really, all I ask is that people look deeper than just the movement stat, because all they risk from doing so is potentially missing out on more interesting strategic elements, that can hardly be called less 'efficient,' if you coordinate your units efficiently. I worry that some newcomers to the franchise might be made to think the only right option for effective play is to make all their units horsemen or fliers, which could cheapen the experience for them, if not give them the impression that Three Houses is a poorly balanced mess, which I don't think it is. I love this game because I think it's actually one of the better balanced games in the franchise. And, it's largely due to how they've gone about balancing the classes through what I see as a mix of direct and indirect means.

Let's look at some of these classes a bit more in-depth:

For Swordmasters, I intend to look more into the class but right now I do have some ideas of what niches it could fill. Perhaps it's a reclass option for when you would like a high AS front line unit? You know, to roll out on maps with a lot of quick enemy units. Or similarly, a frontline option against the faster demonic beasts like hawks and wolves, that can then kill a barrier quickly with Astra.

Now, I would also like to make note of Assassins here, because of the unique utitlity provided by their Stealth trait. I've mentioned it a few times before in other long essays I've written elsewhere on this forum, but I'll gladly mention it again because I think it's just so dang cool! Anyway ~ if you or anyone else reading this doesn't know already, the Stealth trait prevents Assassins from being targeted by enemies that are also in range of another one of your units. In other words, an Assassin Petra standing next to a Ferdinand will never be targeted by a nearby enemy Brigand or w/e. They will attack Ferdinand. The thing with this is that the Assassin still takes up a space on the map, which means you can position them to better wall off your squishies just by keeping them near to your Tank! XD Better still, have them equip a Bow so that they can provide support bonuses to said tank. I think some people are too hung up on the name--'assassins'-- thinking only of their offensive capabilities, but to me at least that's really the least of what they've got going for them. 

All the Axe and Brawler classes are just stepping stones leading up to War Master, save for maybe Grappler. Or maybe it's a class you can switch your War Master to train on for a while for the Skill and Speed growths, if you so please.

As for the Hero, my current Ferdinand is generally reclassed to it when he's neither a Paladin or an Armored, just because it gives him more offensive potential than an Armored when the extra defense would otherwise be excessive, and I don't see a need for an extra horse. I see it as just a solid, middle-ground front line option that works fine in most situations, offering solid growths for any frontline.  (Side note: Ferdie <3)

23 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Building up the skill levels to reclass back and forth isn't easy either.

To clarify, I write with the assumption that NG+ is being taken full advantage of. I am on my fourth playthrough now, with full statue bonuses, so certainly my experiences would be different than say a fresh file on Maddening. What with the added bonus renown they recently patched in, getting multiple high skill levels on all of your units is fully within the realm of possibilities on a single playthrough, with renown to spare. However, if one opts to not use New Game+, I'll give it to you that this is a valid concern. However, one thing that helps is to stick to weapons that you gain ranking bonuses for on the class you currently have equipped, as often as possible.

And can I just say there's just so much more strategic depth on a New Game+, man! With more freedom to train your units in various fields, I've really come to appreciate their individual strengths and weaknesses, and apply them to my units accordingly.

23 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

You have a finite amount of instructing and skill experience, and if you spread your units too thin, they'll become weaker by generalizing, not stronger. This is especially true on Maddening because the bar to be a good unit is significantly higher than on Hard.

This is undoubtedly the case of a fresh file on one of the harder difficulties, but I simply do not think this is true of a New Game+. But of course I can only speak on behalf of Hard Mode right now.

23 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Mortal Savants are not particularly good for Sword users or Reason users, and Gremories lack the healing of Bishops or the mobility of Dark Knights. 

My one experience with Mortal Savant so far was to use it as a niche option on Felix, for when I desired a mix of both magic and melee damage, and the battle wasn't taking place on a desert map. He also gets access to Thoron, which is quite nice for the purpose of infantry stacking versus demonic beasts with the added perk of also out-ranging most varieties of them, and he was even often fast enough to double with it. Other than that, magic is obviously good for dealing with armoreds, or to dispatch enemies that are more threatening than most trash mobs on the counterattack, like assassins or warriors, from a distance. Sure you can also do this with a bow, but their RES stats tend to be lower anyway. However I will agree that I'd be hard-pressed to think of a Reason user that would be a good fit for the class...other than Lysithea, maybe. Since I don't give her the Thyrsus, the extra attack range and Swordfaire boosted damage of an upgraded Levin Sword would be nice to have versus Demonic Beasts. 

Gremories do get more Physic, Fortify, Meteor, Warp, and to a far lesser extent Rescue uses than a Dark Knight, on top of having more uses on their basic attack spells. On paper I'd say they're better for a unit you lean on heavily for both long ranged and short ranged offensive and utility purposes, including cheesy Warp strats with the aid of a Dancer and another Warp cast by, say, your Linhardt on the same turn. 

Really...if you think about it, with spells like Meteor, Physic, Fortify, Silence, Ward and Warp at their disposal, foot casters basically are long range movement classes. 

What the x2 traits do is they effectively double their capacity for "keeping pace" with the 1 or 2 horses and your fliers, with a combination of offensive as well as healing support, even when there are great distances separating them. As for what the 2x does to help them as a unit in a close range, infantry beast killing squad, it simply allows the player more flexibility in their cast patterns when balancing spell weight with damage, while also taking into account the amount of uses left on each spell.

Thinking of it now, I would say the Gremory class challenges the player to really push to get as much mileage out of all the extra spell casts available to a unit in every single battle. To push their frontline into more threatening situations than usual, with the knowledge that you have so many spare physics to burn. To come up with more and more complex Warp + Rescue strats. Even have your Dancer stay attached to them for most of the battle, helping to mitigate their low move so that they're popping the nearest trash mob at every opportunity, twice as often.

On the other hand, if you primarily use a caster for their Reason spells then the Dark Knight is far from a bad alternative.

22 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Warlocks and Dark Bishops are both unimpressive compared to Dark Knight because of an effective 4 Move gap and lack of Canto.

I definitely agree that Dark Knight is the best end game for most guy casters/hybrids in the game, but don't see it as a strike against either the Warlock or Dark Bishop class, necessarily.They're still the classes I revert my DKs back to on smaller sized or desert maps, for the better growths / avoiding movement penalties, solidifying their place as a relevant reclass option even after achieving Dark Knight. 

Other than that, yeah, I keep them as Dark Knights most of the time. :p Even hand 'em each a Crescent Sickle, 'cuz it' just looks so right. Dark Knight is probably my single favorite class, if I had to pick.

I even made Hubert a Dark Knight and mostly kept him on the class as well, and would go so far as to definitely call it a huge power spike for him, even though it's clear to anyone he's far from front line material. The reason for this was because it actually allowed him to keep pace with Edelgard, who did serve as my primary frontline :p, with him occasionally providing her with Rally support when he wasn't picking off faster threats that she had weakened with a counterattack. 

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8 hours ago, TrueNoble said:

For the record, I do count groups of enemies placed far across the map as objectives. So yes, my horses and fliers are always pushing distant objectives, while my infantry squad wades through prolonged fights, especially against demonic beasts, and throwing out long range Meteors or Physics to support the horses from time to time. It is this level of coordination is what allows a mixed army to perform just as efficiently--if not moreso--as a move stacked one.

That's fair enough. At least with Stride in this game, it is easier to reach certain areas with lots of enemies even if your units do have low Move normally. I do try to avoid prolonged fights when I can, but that's just my personal playstyle, and I can see the merit in having infantry in certain areas where your units aren't going anywhere fast. In that instance, Canto is the main benefit, but in a tightly packed area, repositioning isn't as useful comparatively. 

8 hours ago, TrueNoble said:

Really, all I ask is that people look deeper than just the movement stat, because all they risk from doing so is potentially missing out on more interesting strategic elements, that can hardly be called less 'efficient,' if you coordinate your units efficiently. I worry that some newcomers to the franchise might be made to think the only right option for effective play is to make all their units horsemen or fliers, which could cheapen the experience for them, if not give them the impression that Three Houses is a poorly balanced mess, which I don't think it is. I love this game because I think it's actually one of the better balanced games in the franchise. And, it's largely due to how they've gone about balancing the classes through what I see as a mix of direct and indirect means.

 

I agree. I do think Wyverns have too much Spd in their modifiers and bases, but fliers in general are punished by the relative inflexibility of their battalions and how weak they can be. The game has an overabundance of great B rank battalions, but fliers only have one, and it hinges on a paralogue with Ingrid. Fliers really do have to compete with each other for them where infantry and cavalry do not. 

9 hours ago, TrueNoble said:

Let's look at some of these classes a bit more in-depth:

I didn't mention Assassins, but I really do like Stealth personally. Funnily enough, it makes them "tanks" in a way since they literally will not be targeted in 99% of situations. I think it's the best class for most Sword units for that alone and 6 Move, which is on the higher end for infantry. The main issue I see with Mortal Savant is that when I look at it, I'm also considering the Levin Sword+. It has very similar stats to Thoron and the same range, so the main benefit that I see in the Assassin vs. Mortal Savant debate is the extra Magic that a Mortal Savant will likely have over an Assassin. This makes Thoron hit a bit harder technically, but I don't think that boost is worth the loss of Stealth for most Sword units. And while Lysithea does have decent damage as one, I value Warp a bit more than that, especially since I don't think she'll be attacking at 1 range much anyway. 

Gremories are a mixed bag. They don't have the healing capability of Bishops or the damage capability of Dark Knight. Getting double the uses of both Faith and Reason spells can be useful, but generally, I find that most units don't want to be this class. A few notable exceptions are Dorothea and Lysithea. Dorothea has Physic and is bad at Riding, so Gremory fits pretty well. Lysithea doesn't care about the loss in healing because that's not what she really does anyway. On the whole though, I think it's very situational in context of the other classes, but there are some units who have it as their first choice. As far as Warlock, I don't think dismounted units are punished the same as when they're mounted, so a Dark Knight dismounted does still have 1 more movement even on desert maps and the like. I'll agree on the better growths though. 

I am mostly thinking in the context of Maddening NG since that's the hardest difficulty available currently, but I do really enjoy NG+. The ability to tinker around with builds without being severely punished is nice. If we're just talking about NG+ here, then I think a lot of these concerns disappear, but I think a unit is really tested on whether they're good or not based on NG. On NG+, just about any unit can become good. I'm not sure if this will still hold true on NG+ Maddening, but while it is freeing to not worry so much about viability, it's also not really an accurate representation of how good a unit is, in my opinion. 

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On 9/15/2019 at 7:54 PM, daisy jane said:

Honestly - Gremory is kinda meh. yeah you have double spell usage but you have 4 movement. 
if it wasn't for the fact that Mercedes (whom i'd argue is the best healer in the game) sucked at both lances and riding I'd probably make her a holy knight just for mobility. as it stands.

Marianne: Dancer (thus can use all magics and she's somewhat sturdy enough to be left behind + 6 movement). 
Dorothea (Dancer - same reason but i'd give her the shoes of the wind anyway) 
Linhardt, Lysithea. Dark Knight. +1 move from the horse, Black Magic Range 1. (Lin gets the Cadethus staff and Lysithea gets the Thyrsus staff so it just adds to their range).

i have to say. i've never felt that Lin's healing suffered (for me) or Ly's magical output. but that's just me. even though for 2 playthroughs now i ditched the entire team "Flight"  - having mages not be so behind, esp. when something can pop up behind them is really key for me)

I honestly fail to see Holy Knight as better than Bishop - the tradeoff isn't worth it when the only thing of note you're getting out of it is extra mobility (White Tomefaire is a dud skill when there are only 4 offensive white magic spells in the game, and all characters but 8 - those 8 being Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri, Annette, Sylvain, Ingrid, Marianne and Lysithea - only get one, with that one being the weak Nosferatu), which just ain't enough to make up for losing out on doubled uses for white magic and extra healing. Dark Knight is better, but imho, it still is a lot more investment for a meager payoff, especially for Lysithea, who has to deal with a weakness in Lances, to say nothing of other females who are weak in either Riding or Lances. Especially on Maddening, which lowers weekly skill experience. The only characters who I could really recommend Dark Knight for are Lorenz and Hanneman, who are male (the former even is strong in all three of the skills required to become a Dark Knight).

Edited by Shadow Mir
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12 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I honestly fail to see Holy Knight as better than Bishop - the tradeoff isn't worth it when the only thing of note you're getting out of it is extra mobility (White Tomefaire is a dud skill when there are only 4 offensive white magic spells in the game, and all characters but 8 - those 8 being Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri, Annette, Sylvain, Ingrid, Marianne and Lysithea - only get one, with that one being the weak Nosferatu), which just ain't enough to make up for losing out on doubled uses for white magic and extra healing. Dark Knight is better, but imho, it still is a lot more investment for a meager payoff, especially for Lysithea, who has to deal with a weakness in Lances, to say nothing of other females who are weak in either Riding or Lances. The only characters who I could really recommend Dark Knight for are Lorenz and Hanneman, who are male (the former even is strong in all three of the skills required to become a Dark Knight). 

 

Byleth Holy Knight, +20 White Magic Avoid, Faith Proficiency 5 (+20 Avoid) is a pretty good Enemy-phase Avoid Tank for the ~5ish-turns you have Nosferatsu. Self-healing with Nosferatsu and Crest of Flames allows you to go pretty deep, and the +5 White Tomefaire is quite relevant since it adds to the self-healing factor.

 

If you manage to find a +20% Avoid Thicket, Byleth Holy Knight equipped Nosferatsu can perform some pretty insane avoid-tanking enemy phase stuff. Byleth shouldn't be using Nosferatsu too much, because it is only 8 uses. Aura only has 3 uses.

 

But get Reason D for Fire / D+ for Thunder and you'll have more than enough Magic to use for the occasional Fortress Knight / Great Knight KO. Leave Nosferatsu / Aura for that one or two "deep enemy phase" plays where you need to dodge a lot of incoming hits.

 

I'd argue that Byleth Holy Knight is better than Bishop (and Enlightened One even). 7 movement Byleth + Canto for the win. Most Player-phase turns are still running around with your Sword / Superior Str stat, but having the ability to switch into self-healing Avoid Tank when the time calls for it is quite helpful. Alert Stance flier build loses on Byleth's healing potential (Heal doesn't restore much HP,  but Restore is actually quite useful), and the ability to cast spells is really good on Byleth.

Edited by dragontamer
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I mean the extra benefit from having double white magic or double black magic only really matters if you're burning through their casts.

Personally for black magic I've never burnt straight through a character's casts except at the early game(at which point this argument isn't pertinent to since can't have a mounted caster back then). The catch for black magic really is if they're male or not to dictate if they can go Dark Knight.

For white magic I'd say it would depend on the unit, having a physic healer with double casts can be useful, also if they have warp and a high mag stat to get the most out of that(though this is only applicable to 3 characters and one of those doesn't get Physic) but the extra mobility can be useful in other situations, particularly if you're using a lot of other high mobility units. There's been a couple of times where I wish I had a healer on Holy Knight so I could get them into position to assist another unit more easily.

The obvious drawback to mounted healers is of course actually training them, you can't be in both a mounted class and a magic class till master so you'll have to get up that riding prof. through group tasks and instruct which can be a pain since you need to get at least near A rank. If you already have the lance req. satisfied through normal play I wouldn't say this isn't quite so much of a problem since that's only one stat you need to focus up but if you've been going purely black and white magic then you'd be putting in a lot of extra work to get them into their mounted class.

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8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I honestly fail to see Holy Knight as better than Bishop - the tradeoff isn't worth it when the only thing of note you're getting out of it is extra mobility (White Tomefaire is a dud skill when there are only 4 offensive white magic spells in the game, and all characters but 8 - those 8 being Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri, Annette, Sylvain, Ingrid, Marianne and Lysithea - only get one, with that one being the weak Nosferatu), which just ain't enough to make up for losing out on doubled uses for white magic and extra healing. Dark Knight is better, but imho, it still is a lot more investment for a meager payoff, especially for Lysithea, who has to deal with a weakness in Lances, to say nothing of other females who are weak in either Riding or Lances. Especially on Maddening, which lowers weekly skill experience. The only characters who I could really recommend Dark Knight for are Lorenz and Hanneman, who are male (the former even is strong in all three of the skills required to become a Dark Knight).

while Lysithea has a weakness in it - she also learns it faster (to be fair (knock wood))- i've never had an issue with Lysithea learning lance. i just let mastermind + knowledge gem get it done for me and easy peasy. 

to be fair I've not played on Hard (and won't ever play maddening). I've done Lorenz on dark knight and that was like the biggest waste of my time. (mabe i was simply screwed in growths) but just not fast enough didn't hit hard enough. Linhardt (for me) much better,and i've heard wonderful things about Sylvain in that class. but i gues it's more of a each their own. i just know for me it was worth the slog for lances for Lin/Ly - to have that movement. (and again for them - extra range once their staffs + tome range kicked in). 

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21 hours ago, dragontamer said:

 

Byleth Holy Knight, +20 White Magic Avoid, Faith Proficiency 5 (+20 Avoid) is a pretty good Enemy-phase Avoid Tank for the ~5ish-turns you have Nosferatsu. Self-healing with Nosferatsu and Crest of Flames allows you to go pretty deep, and the +5 White Tomefaire is quite relevant since it adds to the self-healing factor.

 

If you manage to find a +20% Avoid Thicket, Byleth Holy Knight equipped Nosferatsu can perform some pretty insane avoid-tanking enemy phase stuff. Byleth shouldn't be using Nosferatsu too much, because it is only 8 uses. Aura only has 3 uses.

 

But get Reason D for Fire / D+ for Thunder and you'll have more than enough Magic to use for the occasional Fortress Knight / Great Knight KO. Leave Nosferatsu / Aura for that one or two "deep enemy phase" plays where you need to dodge a lot of incoming hits.

 

I'd argue that Byleth Holy Knight is better than Bishop (and Enlightened One even). 7 movement Byleth + Canto for the win. Most Player-phase turns are still running around with your Sword / Superior Str stat, but having the ability to switch into self-healing Avoid Tank when the time calls for it is quite helpful. Alert Stance flier build loses on Byleth's healing potential (Heal doesn't restore much HP,  but Restore is actually quite useful), and the ability to cast spells is really good on Byleth.

Spoiler alert: You ain't gonna be able to get away with that on Maddening - too much damage taken if you're hit, too little damage dealt to stay alive. I'd hesitate to consider that viable on hard, too.

12 hours ago, daisy jane said:

while Lysithea has a weakness in it - she also learns it faster (to be fair (knock wood))- i've never had an issue with Lysithea learning lance. i just let mastermind + knowledge gem get it done for me and easy peasy. 

to be fair I've not played on Hard (and won't ever play maddening). I've done Lorenz on dark knight and that was like the biggest waste of my time. (mabe i was simply screwed in growths) but just not fast enough didn't hit hard enough. Linhardt (for me) much better,and i've heard wonderful things about Sylvain in that class. but i gues it's more of a each their own. i just know for me it was worth the slog for lances for Lin/Ly - to have that movement. (and again for them - extra range once their staffs + tome range kicked in). 

I'd still consider that C Lance requirement annoying because of the weakness. Sure, the Knowledge Gem could help, but there's an opportunity cost associated with that... and even with it, she's still getting only 2 points. Yeah, no. "Easy peasy" it ain't. And that's not getting into that A Riding requirement that she won't be getting any help in. I'm not one to take the path of most resistance (which this is) for a meager payoff.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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I really think this topic would have to depend on the mode and style. Holy knights are trash in every way, canto with weak heavy magic with low use. Even dodge tanking would burn through all your magic uses.

On hard mode, where 2x white magic is not needed for healers then sure a holy knight can be used but still not the best. But all the main healers you get are physics users. And you want warp 2x on hard mode with how everyone viewed hard mode. Since hard mode was optimizing finish the game by warping a some to 1 turn everything or use Lysthia to dark spikes, 2x magic is worth more than faire. Especially with the lower enemy stats. Bishop is better. Gremory is best for lys, maybe annette if you actually use her. Hubert can just do infantry classes with +1 range reason instead, even though he'll lag behind. Which he would on a mount anyways since hard mode is just wyvern emblem. All mages will lag behind on a mount or not, they arent going around and leaving themselves there for enemy dense phases like physical units. The only reason to dark knight or holy knight seems to just be if you want to try out the class. But utilitywise, I dont see a reason since the maps are low turned in Hard mode if your playing that way.

Maddening, you are more often trying to survive and not 1 turn everything. Bishops are more important with 2x + increased heal. High movement is great, but i dont often use all my movement stat on every unit because you need to position it to surve EP, not wipe out whole sections on the map with one unit like hard mode. So Dark and Holy knights seem even worse, just get Reason S to do longer range for chip or killing enemies. This might be different since maybe you want that canto on dark knight but the investment may not be worth with lower exp from tutoring/goals.

tldr; Holy and Dark master classes are bad. Hard lets you try the master classes if youre not trying to do efficient playthroughs

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Spoiler alert: You ain't gonna be able to get away with that on Maddening - too much damage taken if you're hit, too little damage dealt to stay alive. I'd hesitate to consider that viable on hard, too. 

The point of avoid-tanking is to primarily pull enemies out of position, and then wreak them with your troops on player phase.

 

Given the stats of like 60ish Attack with 50ish AS enemies with only ~130 Hit on endgame maddening, it seems like Avoid-Tanking (and using the rewind button) is probably the most consistent way of surviving endgame.

 

Consider this endgame Maddening Swordmaster: 58 Attack, 134 Hit, 57 AS. Even level 45 Falco-Knight Petra is probably going to be doubled, 53 AS is outside the reach of the majority of the cast.

 

t9agjaE.jpg

 

But you can absolutely abuse the relatively low 134 Hit of the Swordmaster. 20 White Magic Avoid, 20 from Faith 5 Proficiency, 30 Attack-speed, +10 from a Battalion, +15 Alert Stance == 95 Avoid.

 

Plant Byleth on a Forest (10% Avoid) or Thicket (20% avoid) and that Swordmaster is down to 29 Hit (16% real chance) or 19 Hit (7.2% real chance), and you probably can have +10 Avoid per support (untested, but I'm pretty sure linked attacks buff enemy-phase avoid). Assume that Byleth has 25 Defense and 50 HP, the enemies need to hit Byleth twice to KO.

 

With a 16% chance of getting hit, and even with a Two-hit KO chance Byleth will have a 50% chance to survive 9 hits (4+ Swordmasters doing 2x attacks). Seems pretty reliable to me at least through theory-craft. Once Byleth survives the 3 or 4 enemies that fly his way, you switch to Sword of Creator and wreak face. (Citation: Wolfram Alpha calculation of negative-binomial distribution, 2-failures 16% chance, endpoint fixed at 9).

 

EDIT: Alert Stance is probably viable on Enlightened One Byleth, but probably not Holy Knight Byleth. Its going to take a significant amount of faculty training / Aux battles + Knowledge Gem as a Cavalier to get Byleth to C-lance / A Faith / B-horses (for a ~30% chance to Holy Knight), and probably not really have much time for Flying B for Alert Stance on NG. Byleth probably will stay Enlightened One for a significant period of the game, so A Faith is pretty easy, and C-lance isn't too bad. B-horse + B-Flying seems tough however.

 

EDIT2: Alternative build: 20 White Mag avoid, 20 Faith 5 Proficiency, 30 Attack Speed, +20 Avoid from Brigid Hunters Battalion (Bernadetta / Petra Paralogue reward) == 90 Avoid. Alert Stance would be nice, but its really hard for me to imagine grinding to B Riding (chance to pass Holy Knight exam) + B Flying. Alert Stance seems quite viable on Enlightened One Byleth however, pumping this build up to 105 White-Magic Avoid without supports or terrain.

Edited by dragontamer
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1 hour ago, dragontamer said:

The point of avoid-tanking is to primarily pull enemies out of position, and then wreak them with your troops on player phase.

 

Given the stats of like 60ish Attack with 50ish AS enemies with only ~130 Hit on endgame maddening, it seems like Avoid-Tanking (and using the rewind button) is probably the most consistent way of surviving endgame.

 

Consider this endgame Maddening Swordmaster: 58 Attack, 134 Hit, 57 AS. Even level 45 Falco-Knight Petra is probably going to be doubled, 53 AS is outside the reach of the majority of the cast.

  Reveal hidden contents

t9agjaE.jpg

 

But you can absolutely abuse the relatively low 134 Hit of the Swordmaster. 20 White Magic Avoid, 20 from Faith 5 Proficiency, 30 Attack-speed, +10 from a Battalion, +15 Alert Stance == 95 Avoid.

 

Plant Byleth on a Forest (10% Avoid) or Thicket (20% avoid) and that Swordmaster is down to 29 Hit (16% real chance) or 19 Hit (7.2% real chance), and you probably can have +10 Avoid per support (untested, but I'm pretty sure linked attacks buff enemy-phase avoid). Assume that Byleth has 25 Defense and 50 HP, the enemies need to hit Byleth twice to KO.

 

With a 16% chance of getting hit, and even with a Two-hit KO chance Byleth will have a 50% chance to survive 9 hits (4+ Swordmasters doing 2x attacks). Seems pretty reliable to me at least through theory-craft. Once Byleth survives the 3 or 4 enemies that fly his way, you switch to Sword of Creator and wreak face. (Citation: Wolfram Alpha calculation of negative-binomial distribution, 2-failures 16% chance, endpoint fixed at 9).

First, which endgame is this? Second, theorycraft and actual practice are two different things. Third, was true hit even comfirmed? Because if I were you and it was confirmed true hit was not used, I would look really silly right about now. . .

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43 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

First, which endgame is this? 

That one is allegedly Maddening Golden Deer. But pretty much all maddening endgames have similar stats: ~55ish Atk, ~50+ AS, and 120 to 130 Hit rates. For "fast" enemies, like Swordmasters and FalcoKnights. That's the stuff you have to plan for if you're trying to finish a Maddening playthrough.

 

Church Route stats: https://imgur.com/a/YBRhYnc

Golden Deer stats: https://imgur.com/a/r4bqbRQ

 

Overall enemy army hit rates vary between 100 to 140. But the ones I'm most scared of are those Swordmasters and FalcoKnights, with ~60 Attack, ~50 AS and ~130 Hit. In any case, hitting ~90 to 100 Avoid (without terrain / supports) definitely reaches the benchmark of "Maddening viable". You still gotta be careful because of that occasional 140 or 150 hit enemy, as well as "Breaker" skills

 

Quote

Second, theorycraft and actual practice are two different things.

 

Sure. But do you have experience with Dodge-tank Byleth, and do you have reason to believe it doesn't work? In any case, face-tanking with ~70 HP and 35 Def is just not going to cut it with enemies like the above in the mix. It really does seem like Dodge-tanking is your best bet (Alert Stance fliers, White-magic Byleth, etc. etc.)

 

The "practice" is that you might have a chance of player-phase killing the Swordmasters (With only 5-mov + terrain + Wyverns with Bows can probably safely kill them). However Falcoknights have 8-movement and charge at you. Only a Bow Knight "going deep" with no terrain in the way has a chance of player-phase KOing such a Falcoknight safely (Stride, Deadeye, Canto). I'm pretty sure that in practice, pulling the enemies out of formation with a "dodge tank" is just one of the easier strategies to do.

 

With only 8 Nosferatu and 3 Aura, Byleth can't dodge-tank very long. Your standard dodge-tanks are probably going to be an Alert-Stance flying unit with high speed (Petra) and the appropriate "breaker" skill for the foe. But having more Dodge-tanks at your disposal can only help.

 

Quote

Third, was true hit even comfirmed?

I don't know if Triangle-distribution is 100% confirmed, but 80-Hit chance is way more accurate than Stone Edge (80% true accuracy from Pokemon) in my experience.

 

It seems like a reasonable assumption that things are triangle-distribution, which is how Fire Emblem games have played for literally generations aside from Shadow Dragon.

Edited by dragontamer
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True hit is confirmed: https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/d3zr78/three_houses_absolutely_uses_2rn_a_technical/?st=k0r3u4pu&sh=8a1aa162

Supports/Linked do not work on ep, though avoidtank is still very good. Evasion ring is 10 more and Dimitri/Ferdinand personal is 20/15 more. Fliers get 10 class avoid and up to 30 with avoid stance+.

As for mages I don't have much to add, except that it is very useful to double up certain white magic like Warp or Physic or Fortify and Gremory only loses 2/1 mag atk to Dark/Holy Knight even with no faire, and the higher mag may yield a tiny bit more range for certain spells.

 

Edited by XeKr
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