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Infantry or Cavalry magic users?


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1 hour ago, dragontamer said:

Sure. But do you have experience with Dodge-tank Byleth, and do you have reason to believe it doesn't work? In any case, face-tanking with ~70 HP and 35 Def is just not going to cut it with enemies like the above in the mix. It really does seem like Dodge-tanking is your best bet (Alert Stance fliers, White-magic Byleth, etc. etc.)

 

The "practice" is that you might have a chance of player-phase killing the Swordmasters (With only 5-mov + terrain + Wyverns with Bows can probably safely kill them). However Falcoknights have 8-movement and charge at you. Only a Bow Knight "going deep" with no terrain in the way has a chance of player-phase KOing such a Falcoknight safely (Stride, Deadeye, Canto). I'm pretty sure that in practice, pulling the enemies out of formation with a "dodge tank" is just one of the easier strategies to do.

 

With only 8 Nosferatu and 3 Aura, Byleth can't dodge-tank very long. Your standard dodge-tanks are probably going to be an Alert-Stance flying unit with high speed (Petra) and the appropriate "breaker" skill for the foe. But having more Dodge-tanks at your disposal can only help.

And why the hell should I expect this to work??? Because you say so? Let's look at just how much investment is needed to get here:

-A+ in Faith (questionable - Nosferatu sucks [lol 1 might], and Aura shits away your AS to the point where it's likely Byleth is going to have to worry about being doubled by more than just Swordmasters and Falcon Knights thanks to its 13 weight)
-B in Flying (have fun with that if you prefer to play as a male, because the only flying classes you can access are Advanced tier or higher)
And some other stuff.

WRT your blurb about Bow Knights and Falcon Knights, why the hell did you bother to mention Deadeye? Only two characters (Bernadetta and Ashe) can get it, and it sucks anyhow (lol -100 hit at max range; I'd have better luck trying to hit with Dynamic Punch without No Guard than hitting anything with Deadeye from any noteworthy distance).

1 hour ago, dragontamer said:

I don't know if Triangle-distribution is 100% confirmed, but 80-Hit chance is way more accurate than Stone Edge (80% true accuracy from Pokemon) in my experience.

  

It seems like a reasonable assumption that things are triangle-distribution, which is how Fire Emblem games have played for literally generations aside from Shadow Dragon.

What in the hell is "Triangle-distrbution"???

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And why the hell should I expect this to work??? Because you say so? Let's look at just how much investment is needed to get here:

Lets go through the investment of this build I did in an edit:

 

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EDIT2: Alternative build: 20 White Mag avoid, 20 Faith 5 Proficiency, 30 Attack Speed, +20 Avoid from Brigid Hunters Battalion (Bernadetta / Petra Paralogue reward) == 90 Avoid.

* White Magic Avoid +20 is very low investment. It doesn't take many visits to Manuela or Rhea facility taining to unlock Byleth's hidden talent.

* I admit Faith 5 is endgame, but if you "only" get Faith 3, you still have +14 Avoid. Its not a big change to Avoid tanking stats. The difference between White Magic C+ and White Magic A+ is pretty minor, all else considered. The overall point is that Faith Magic has ridiculously high avoid innate to it. All in all, its reasonable to expect +14 Avoid from Faith Magic C+, with +20 Avoid from A+ being within the realm of reason. Note that every "Heal" and "Restore" throughout the game is +4 Weapon Exp on Enlightened One. All in all, White Magic C+ is super easy to get. B+ is more than possible, and A+ gets that last +3 Avoid if you wanna go for it.

* 30 Attack speed is just an estimate of Byleth's endgame stats. I don't recall the class-bonuses of Advanced or Master class units, so I'm just throwing something out that seems reasonable. If you got a better estimate of Byleth's endgame speed, please share. Level 40 Byleth averages at 26 Speed, and still gets a class-bonus on top of that. So it really comes down to the +Speed bonus associated with the various endgame classes. 30 Speed seems like a reasonable estimate in my eyes.

* Brigid Hunters Battalion is Authority B and +20 Avoid. Very simple to get.

Bam. 90 Avoid. +10 Avoid from a ring (Anna's shop), +10 Avoid from a Forest, or +20 Avoid in a Thicket. (+30 avoid on a stronghold is unlikely: strongholds are rare). All in all, 110 Avoid for Endgame Holy Knight Byleth isn't really hard to achieve. If you get +15 Avoid from Alert Stance, its all the better.

 

EDIT: If you can't imagine, here's a Holy Knight training path: Byleth -> Commoner -> Soldier -> Cavalier -> (Free Adv. Class for a few levels) -> Enlightened One -> Holy Knight. Train up Faith and Riding through Adv. Drills or Facilities, Lance C is very doable with Soldier / Cavalier alone.

 

47 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

What in the hell is "Triangle-distrbution"??? 

The mathematical term for roll two dice and add them up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_distribution

 

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WRT your blurb about Bow Knights and Falcon Knights, why the hell did you bother to mention Deadeye? Only two characters (Bernadetta and Ashe) can get it, and it sucks

anyhow (lol -100 hit at max range; I'd have better luck trying to hit with Dynamic Punch without No Guard than hitting anything with Deadeye from any noteworthy distance). 

My point is that 8-mov endgame Falco Knights with 60 Attack and 50 Attack speed are hard to deal with.

I'm asking you: how do YOU plan to deal with this Falco Knight?

E8AxbUB.jpg

 

I take one look at that, and notice its hit is only 127. Reaching 100 Avoid or 110 avoid with Byleth is actually very reasonable, so you can avoid-tank this guy pretty easily. But ONLY with white-magic avoid shenanigans. Yeah, Byleth probably won't deal much damage with Nosferatsu, but the Falcon Knight will probably double-miss the 100 to 110 Avoid Byleth (depening on situational bonuses).

 

And this guy will charge at anybody who dares to move within 9-squares of him. A Bowknight can get first-strike (8 move, 3-range). But only if the terrain is usable. In practice you're going to want to bait this guy out with an Avoid Tank, and then KO the unit on Player Phase. I don't think there's many defense-tanks in the game that can take 2x 63 Atk.

Edited by dragontamer
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2 hours ago, dragontamer said:

Lets go through the investment of this build I did in an edit:

 

 * White Magic Avoid +20 is very low investment. It doesn't take many visits to Manuela or Rhea facility taining to unlock Byleth's hidden talent.

* I admit Faith 5 is endgame, but if you "only" get Faith 3, you still have +14 Avoid. Its not a big change to Avoid tanking stats. The difference between White Magic C+ and White Magic A+ is pretty minor, all else considered. The overall point is that Faith Magic has ridiculously high avoid innate to it. All in all, its reasonable to expect +14 Avoid from Faith Magic C+, with +20 Avoid from A+ being within the realm of reason. Note that every "Heal" and "Restore" throughout the game is +4 Weapon Exp on Enlightened One. All in all, White Magic C+ is super easy to get. B+ is more than possible, and A+ gets that last +3 Avoid if you wanna go for it.

* 30 Attack speed is just an estimate of Byleth's endgame stats. I don't recall the class-bonuses of Advanced or Master class units, so I'm just throwing something out that seems reasonable. If you got a better estimate of Byleth's endgame speed, please share. Level 40 Byleth averages at 26 Speed, and still gets a class-bonus on top of that. So it really comes down to the +Speed bonus associated with the various endgame classes. 30 Speed seems like a reasonable estimate in my eyes.

* Brigid Hunters Battalion is Authority B and +20 Avoid. Very simple to get.

Bam. 90 Avoid. +10 Avoid from a ring (Anna's shop), +10 Avoid from a Forest, or +20 Avoid in a Thicket. (+30 avoid on a stronghold is unlikely: strongholds are rare). All in all, 110 Avoid for Endgame Holy Knight Byleth isn't really hard to achieve. If you get +15 Avoid from Alert Stance, its all the better.

 

EDIT: If you can't imagine, here's a Holy Knight training path: Byleth -> Commoner -> Soldier -> Cavalier -> (Free Adv. Class for a few levels) -> Enlightened One -> Holy Knight. Train up Faith and Riding through Adv. Drills or Facilities, Lance C is very doable with Soldier / Cavalier alone.

 

The mathematical term for roll two dice and add them up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_distribution

 

My point is that 8-mov endgame Falco Knights with 60 Attack and 50 Attack speed are hard to deal with.

I'm asking you: how do YOU plan to deal with this Falco Knight?

E8AxbUB.jpg

 

I take one look at that, and notice its hit is only 127. Reaching 100 Avoid or 110 avoid with Byleth is actually very reasonable, so you can avoid-tank this guy pretty easily. But ONLY with white-magic avoid shenanigans. Yeah, Byleth probably won't deal much damage with Nosferatsu, but the Falcon Knight will probably double-miss the 100 to 110 Avoid Byleth (depening on situational bonuses).

 

And this guy will charge at anybody who dares to move within 9-squares of him. A Bowknight can get first-strike (8 move, 3-range). But only if the terrain is usable. In practice you're going to want to bait this guy out with an Avoid Tank, and then KO the unit on Player Phase. I don't think there's many defense-tanks in the game that can take 2x 63 Atk.

Problem is, white magic dodge tanking is still impractical when I'm either not doing any (meaningful) damage to my attacker, which is bad, or using something that makes it likely that (even more, considering Aura's 12 weight, which you'd need 60 strength to completely negate) stuff aside from Swordmasters and Falcon Knights would double Byleth, which is possibly even worse. Maybe it'd have some merit if white magic actually had some attack spells that didn't suck, but as is, I cannot - and will not - take it seriously as a strategy when I'm forced into a Morton's Fork where both options are blatantly terrible. Long story short, I think that Byleth clearly didn't win the budding talent lottery, considering how useful theirs ISN'T. Most magically inclined units aren't much better off budding talent wise, for that matter, especially Dorothea, who has the misfortune of having the same budding talent skill, and only Nosferatu to take "advantage" of it with.

As for that Falcon Knight in the screen shot, I have a simple answer to that - have my own Falcon Knights fly in with bows and take them out. Yay, no weapon limits!

Edited by Shadow Mir
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21 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

(even more, considering Aura's 12 weight, which you'd need 60 strength to completely negate)

45 STR and Weight-3 actually. C-rank Armor isn't very hard to grab, especially by endgame when you have A+ professor rank and plenty of freetime. But with only 3-uses of Aura, you're mostly using Nosferatsu for dodge-tanking.

 

Byleth seems to be ~9-weight or 10-weight in most of my endgames (35 STR or so with -3 Weight). So Aura drops his speed by 2, and Nosferatsu is wielded without any AS loss.

 

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stuff aside from Swordmasters and Falcon Knights would double Byleth, which is possibly even worse

War Masters also have 50 AS. Wyvern Lords and Flying Magic Beasts are in the 40AS to 45 AS range. Assassins are 57 AS. Heroes are 47 AS. There's a LOT of stuff which is "doubling Byleth" in Maddening endgame actually.

 

Paladins, Warlocks, Gremories are in the mid 30s to 40s. Maybe it matters for them, but Warlocks / Gremories don't have much move so you can probably blitz your army into them pretty easily.

 

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As for that Falcon Knight in the screen shot, I have a simple answer to that - have my own Falcon Knights fly in with bows and take them out. Yay, no weapon limits! 

Good luck. Silver Bow (36 Might) + 48 Strength is needed to 2HKO the Falcon Knight, and I'm pretty sure no flying candidate has 48 STR and 57 AS by endgame. Anything less, and you're spending 2-units or 3-units before you can KO that Falcon Knight, even if all of them are using Silver Bows. This isn't as simple as "send one flier", we're talking about sending 2 or 3 fliers over to actually KO that thing.

 

In contrast, if you dodge-tank the Falcon Knight to bait/charge at you, you have a lot more leisure to KO it when it comes out of position. Bait the Falcon Knight into attacking Byleth, and THEN send 3 or 4 units to KO it. Its slow, but its what you have to do in Maddening mode.

Edited by dragontamer
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17 minutes ago, dragontamer said:

Good luck. Silver Bow (36 Might) + 48 Strength is needed to 2HKO the Falcon Knight, and I'm pretty sure no flying candidate has 48 STR and 57 AS by endgame. Anything less, and you're spending 2-units or 3-units before you can KO that Falcon Knight, even if all of them are using Silver Bows. This isn't as simple as "send one flier", we're talking about sending 2 or 3 fliers over to actually KO that thing.

  

In contrast, if you dodge-tank the Falcon Knight to bait/charge at you, you have a lot more leisure to KO it when it comes out of position. Bait the Falcon Knight into attacking Byleth, and THEN send 3 or 4 units to KO it. Its slow, but its what you have to do in Maddening mode.

Still an infinitely better idea than using Deadeye with Bernadetta or Ashe and hoping to not whiff with a combat art that has no accuracy boost to make up for the penalty you take from attacking at range (best of luck with that, because you WILL need it). Or trying to lure them in with someone who's possibly eating a lot of damage and doing nothing back in return (or even getting hit by a gambit, which your avoid tank build is absolutely zero help whatsoever against [unless you have something ludicrous like 45 charm, which I VERY highly doubt is gonna happen]).

Edited by Shadow Mir
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I think white magic tanking is a thing that can exist, but why not do old school weapon triangle advantage. +20 avoid, axe prowess 5, with the terrain, supports and battlions. Seems easier for axe people. Or flying units alert stance. But dismounted. That's church route, so Petra seems easier to do this, or Cyril, or seteth. Much less investment 

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Or trying to lure them in with someone who's possibly eating a lot of damage

Probably not actually. As I said: Byleth easily hits 100 Avoid with the above build, so there's a very small chance Byleth even gets hit by a 125 Falco Knight or 135 Swordmaster.

The ideal matchup vs the Falco Knight is a Lancebreaker Wyvern Lord: 30 Alert Stance, 10 Class Bonus, 20 Lancebreaker, 30 Speed, 10 Avoid (Axe 5), +10 Avoid Ring == 110 Avoid. But a Swordmaster with Axebreaker can completely wreak your avoid-strategy (pretty common in Hard Mode and Maddening mode), so Byleth's Faith-based avoid strategy is actually pretty good (when your other dodge-tanks face weapon selection issues).

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

even getting hit by a gambit

Its pretty easy to see when enemies have battalions: they've got these little green marks. Neither the Falco-Knight nor the Swordmaster I posted have gambits available.

 

54 minutes ago, Johnzin said:

I think white magic tanking is a thing that can exist, but why not do old school weapon triangle advantage. +20 avoid, axe prowess 5, with the terrain, supports and battlions. Seems easier for axe people. Or flying units alert stance. But dismounted. That's church route, so Petra seems easier to do this, or Cyril, or seteth. Much less investment 

 

 

1. Lancebreaker only works vs lances. Swordbreaker only works with Swords. As such: Petra Wyvern Lord can dodge the Falcoknight, while Ingrid (Falco Knight) can dodge Swordmasters. But neither can dodge both, like White Magic Avoid +20 can from Byleth.

2. Axe Prowess 5 is only 10 avoid. Lance Prowess 5 is only 15 avoid. Faith 5 is 20 avoid, so Byleth has yet another advantage.

3. Flying units have innate +10 avoid, but they lose it when they dismount. its only worthwhile to dismount if you can find a thicket (20%) or better. Innate +10 avoid is a win for Flying units for sure. Flying classes also have higher speed.

4. Byleth reaches 100 Avoid without Alert Stance. This means that Byleth can chip-kill another unit (ex: Nosferatsu the Great Knight x2, self-heal lots of HP, KO the Great Knight), and still have 100 Avoid for Enemy Phase. In contrast, Fliers are forced to wait / give up their Player Phase for the +15 or +30 Alert Stance bonus.

5. Flying units cannot use the Brigid Hunters battalion (ground-unit battalion only). It seems like most other battalions are only +10 avoid, instead of Brigid Hunter's +20 avoid.

6. All in all: Byleth actually is superior at "general dodge-tanking". However, Byleth suffers from very low counts (8 Nosferatsu / 3 Aura) and loses against Tomebreaker Grapplers / War Masters. So you still should build out other dodge tanks to cover these weaknesses. It seems like Maddening difficulty will be all about the dodge tank builds, which are rather specialized against a particular weapon (Swordbreaker / Lancebreaker / Axebreaker).

Edited by dragontamer
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I feel like Marianne despite likely starting out in the Holy Knight line for her first class should probably switch to Dark Knight ASAP because her Reason spell list is stronk

also people should be Paladins, they should be fliers in this game. Literally everyone should basically end up a Flier at least on Hard Mode outside of your magic units+Dancer and maybe a Bow Knight in Shamir or something. 

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15 minutes ago, SubwayBossEmmett said:



also people should be Paladins, they should be fliers in this game. Literally everyone should basically end up a Flier at least on Hard Mode outside of your magic units+Dancer and maybe a Bow Knight in Shamir or something.  

 

On the contrary. The ground-only battalions get stupid good, and you only have maybe 2 to 4 (depending on route) good flying battalions. You should have as many fliers as your good battalions, but everyone else should be grounded for incredible +10 Attack (King of Lions Corps), or +22 Avoid (Brigid Hunters), +22 Crit (Fraldarius Soldiers, great for War Masters) or all-around wtf stats like Supreme Armored Co (+7 Physical/+6 Magic/+6Def/+5Res). Those are B-ranked and C-ranked Battalions btw.

 

Supreme Armored Co is good on mixed-attackers (Ex: Holy Knight Byleth). I'm pretty sure it is locked to Edelgard's route however.

 

Black Eagle Pegasus Co (+7 Atk, +10 Crit, +10 Avoid, +5 Def, +7 Res) is pretty good for fliers, but you need A-authority. I'm also pretty sure that this one is locked to the Black Eagle route. The pool of "good flying battalions" is way smaller than the pool of endgame-worthy ground battalions.

Edited by dragontamer
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1 hour ago, dragontamer said:

 

On the contrary. The ground-only battalions get stupid good, and you only have maybe 2 to 4 (depending on route) good flying battalions. You should have as many fliers as your good battalions

This is speaking with Hard Mode in mind and not Maddening Mode but Battalions are just so overkill. 

Like give a unit darting blow and Death blow and contest, you’d like ORKOing the bulk of enemies on that difficulty 

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1 hour ago, dragontamer said:

Supreme Armored Co is good on mixed-attackers (Ex: Holy Knight Byleth). I'm pretty sure it is locked to Edelgard's route however.

Yep, but the fact that you can carry over Supreme Armored Co. via NG+ if Crimson Flower was an initial route is really clutch.

Hard is too easy, but I'm actually honestly enjoying the repeat playthroughs a lot because it kind of becomes a sandbox. Obviously entirely different genre, but on that note reminds me a little of the Dishonored games, where the easier difficulty actually ends up making repeat playthroughs a lot of fun because of the experimentation. I do wish perhaps Hard constrained things a little bit more such that there were 3 or so highly recommended strategies per map rather than essentially everything working, but yeah, been enjoying blowing stuff in rapid succession with large-area gambits coming one after another. The successful gambit sound is really satisfying.

Maddening has really just not been that fun for me. Yeah, it's beatable, but I feel that because of the stats inflation that my default strategy on all the maps now is to turtle, move real slow, take on as few enemies as I can. I prefer a balance between sandboxing and being constrained to a few different solutions for "solving" a map (again thinking of Fates Conquest maps fondly here).

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10 hours ago, dragontamer said:

Its pretty easy to see when enemies have battalions: they've got these little green marks. Neither the Falco-Knight nor the Swordmaster I posted have gambits available.

If I were you, I'd look again; that Falcon Knight you did post obviously does have a battalion. If you're playing on Maddening, a slip-up like that WILL cost you, big time.

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6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

If I were you, I'd look again; that Falcon Knight you did post obviously does have a battalion. If you're playing on Maddening, a slip-up like that WILL cost you, big time. 

At absolute worst, it costs one divine pulse actually. Not a big deal anymore actually.

 

In any case, a Gambit means that the Falcon Knight isn't actually hitting with 2x 60 damage. So you probably can survive the hit. Only if the AI orders the gambit to strike first, and then other units come in to attack (and even then, the avoid stacking is still quite high, that even with a debuff you have a good chance of avoiding attacks). The main issue of gambit is that you lose movement and battalion buffs IIRC, so Byleth will lose the 20-avoid on the Brigid Hunters. Still, Byleth is reasonably sitting at 90+ Avoid even without those.

 

Also, Byleth's gets every +Cha bonus from every tea-time in the game. If there was a character you'd send to tank-gambits, its Byleth. If anything, the high-charm on Byleth (+all tea time bonuses) makes Byleth the ideal unit to avoid-tank when Gambits are threatened. Other avoid-tank candidates like Petra have lower Charm actually. (Maybe even Ingrid, because although Ingrid ties Byleth's Cha growth, Byleth still has the +Tea Time advantage)

Edited by dragontamer
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On 9/19/2019 at 9:20 PM, dragontamer said:

1. Lancebreaker only works vs lances. Swordbreaker only works with Swords. As such: Petra Wyvern Lord can dodge the Falcoknight, while Ingrid (Falco Knight) can dodge Swordmasters. But neither can dodge both, like White Magic Avoid +20 can from Byleth.

 2. Axe Prowess 5 is only 10 avoid. Lance Prowess 5 is only 15 avoid. Faith 5 is 20 avoid, so Byleth has yet another advantage.

3. Flying units have innate +10 avoid, but they lose it when they dismount. its only worthwhile to dismount if you can find a thicket (20%) or better. Innate +10 avoid is a win for Flying units for sure. Flying classes also have higher speed.

4. Byleth reaches 100 Avoid without Alert Stance. This means that Byleth can chip-kill another unit (ex: Nosferatsu the Great Knight x2, self-heal lots of HP, KO the Great Knight), and still have 100 Avoid for Enemy Phase. In contrast, Fliers are forced to wait / give up their Player Phase for the +15 or +30 Alert Stance bonus.

 5. Flying units cannot use the Brigid Hunters battalion (ground-unit battalion only). It seems like most other battalions are only +10 avoid, instead of Brigid Hunter's +20 avoid.

 6. All in all: Byleth actually is superior at "general dodge-tanking". However, Byleth suffers from very low counts (8 Nosferatsu / 3 Aura) and loses against Tomebreaker Grapplers / War Masters. So you still should build out other dodge tanks to cover these weaknesses. It seems like Maddening difficulty will be all about the dodge tank builds, which are rather specialized against a particular weapon (Swordbreaker / Lancebreaker / Axebreaker).

The problem is you're ignoring these issues:

1. Byleth can only do this 12 times, 15 with Aura. That's not enough.

2. It requires a magic using class, of which Gremory is female only, and Holy Knight and Dark Knight are arduous to qualify for.

3. Nosferatu is extremely weak, which I've been trying incessantly to pound into your head.

4. Opportunity cost. Those ability slots that Faith and White Magic Avoid +20 are taking up could have been used for something more useful instead. Just what are YOU willing to give up for those...???

On 9/20/2019 at 10:06 AM, dragontamer said:

At absolute worst, it costs one divine pulse actually. Not a big deal anymore actually.

 

In any case, a Gambit means that the Falcon Knight isn't actually hitting with 2x 60 damage. So you probably can survive the hit. Only if the AI orders the gambit to strike first, and then other units come in to attack (and even then, the avoid stacking is still quite high, that even with a debuff you have a good chance of avoiding attacks). The main issue of gambit is that you lose movement and battalion buffs IIRC, so Byleth will lose the 20-avoid on the Brigid Hunters. Still, Byleth is reasonably sitting at 90+ Avoid even without those.

 

Also, Byleth's gets every +Cha bonus from every tea-time in the game. If there was a character you'd send to tank-gambits, its Byleth. If anything, the high-charm on Byleth (+all tea time bonuses) makes Byleth the ideal unit to avoid-tank when Gambits are threatened. Other avoid-tank candidates like Petra have lower Charm actually. (Maybe even Ingrid, because although Ingrid ties Byleth's Cha growth, Byleth still has the +Tea Time advantage)

Aside from tea time being a MASSIVE Guide Dang It, there's the matter of opportunity cost as well. I could have used those activity points to motivate my students or something instead.

On 9/19/2019 at 2:49 PM, XeKr said:

Supports/Linked do not work on ep, though avoidtank is still very good. Evasion ring is 10 more and Dimitri/Ferdinand personal is 20/15 more. Fliers get 10 class avoid and up to 30 with avoid stance+.

Problem: Ferdinand and Dimitri's personals become a non-factor the moment they take damage, and Alert Stance+ requires you to waste your turn to benefit from it. Neither of those are good things when enemies are stronger and harder to kill.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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