three houses Three houses and the lack of limitations

[Kain the mediocre knight]

I had finished playing my first route. I had loved the game, but I wouldn't have called it my favorite fe game.

 

Afterwards I decided to play a different route. This time I liked the fame significantly less. In fact I got really sick of playing it. I decided to drop that playthrough, and replay my first route.

 

I still didn't like the game, and I was only getting more sick of playing it. I put the game away, and decided to play other fire emblem's. While playing them I was wondering why I liked my first route, but hated my second and third. 

 

I came to a conclusion and would like to flesh out the biggest problem I have with three houses. That problem is the lack of limitations.that is to say. The only time I liked playing three houses is when I artificially limited my resources. From banning fliers, banning turn wheel, and never doing paralogue's or auxiliary battles.

 

Fire emblem, as a strategy game, gives itself well to limitations and how you solve puzzles. Either trying to work around those limitations, or embracing them, these games don't only have just one answer; these games have multiple answers that all are valid strategies to get through special situations. From deciding to buy that silver sword to having a unit die. The situation your in is special, because the money you spend and experience given is all limited.

 

In fire emblem three house your choices don't matter. It doesn't matter if Sylvain died; Just turn back that clock till you pull through. If you bought too many stat boosters, weapons, repaired some items, bought some seeds, etc. You can just play some auxiliary battles to get some money back. You're given the freedom to make everyone the best class in the game, and no amount of money is stopping you from getting the best weapons or battalions. There's only ever one right way to beat any chapter.

 

I get that they try to limit such things sone what, but giving you the ability to hit the battle icon twice a month, and the fact you can do up to 3 maps in the later games, means you never have to go without experience or money. Advanced seals may cost quite a bit of money, but you have so much money anyway.

 

Another resource that is given to you too much are forging stones. Of course special forging stones are harder to get, but normal forging stones in particular are practically just handed to you.

 

Group tasks are a good example of this. They give you proficiency in certain skills, they don't take any resources to use, and they give you forging stones.

 

You get given, and have too many, of these valuable resources. So much that I question why things like regular forging stones exist instead of allowing you to just forge with money alone.

 

I do think I would enjoy three houses more if they were restricted, but I do not require them to, nor do I expect them. I would be fine if they went into the next game with that in mind.

 

Finally, the turn wheel. I have my idea as how to fix it, and I would like to hear your thoughts on it. Each use of the turn wheel allows for you to go anywhere on the time line, even back to the beginning of the map. I've seen two good reasons for its existence.

1. It means those who don't ironman never have to restart an entire map.

2. It gives a safety net for new players.

 

It does indeed allow for corrections of mistakes without replaying the entire map, but it's not the best system to put in place. I would impose a limited resource. One that saves your game in the middle of a chapter, that can't be repaired, and incentives you not to use it.

 

I would propose for this item to be the main characters sword. It is a good weapon, it saves the game, it has about 15-20 durability, and can't be repaired. In my mind this gives an incentive to new and old players to take their chances. It also acts as a safety net if they ever needed it. This gives you an option as to what you want to do. Do you want to save your game, or take your chances and use the weapon to kill bosses.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

The things you bring up aren't really wrong and I agree with some of them too, but your conclusion itself confuses me. You're saying that limitations in older games bring about multiple solutions... But how does the lack of limitations cause there to only be one way to beat a chapter? Doesn't the lack of limitations let you play the game however you want? Wouldn't limitations in older games have stopped you from going with certain solutions?

[eclipse]

If you're unable to have fun without having another person telling you what you can't do. . .that's on you.  No, you don't have to use everything given at every single time.  Ignore the turn wheel if it's that bad.  These are conscious choices by you, the player.

[Hauke]

There isn't only one right way to beat a chapter. You can have multible solutions and noone is forcing you to make everyone a wyvern lord. You can use every class you want and still beat the game, do different solutions. I don't understand what you mean with this sentence.

[timon]

Thank god there aren't excessive limitations, it is SUCH a pain in modern RPGs with all that minmaxed inventory management.

On that note, I'm so glad of how they built weapon durability this time around, the Awakening/BOTW system is so atupidly frustrating, especially if you like some weapons in particular.

Still, I'd like for Relics to be a bit easier to repair, I just wind up never using them in fear of running out when I need it.

[De Geso]

I think a way to have more fun with Three Houses is to ignore tier lists and instead try to find a way to beat chapters reasonably quickly while using suboptimal builds and units. On Hard the game is pretty easy with Maddening being the only real challenge in the game, so (especially on NG+) you have a lot of room to work with in deciding what you want your roster to be.

Edited September 16, 2019 by De Geso

[Usana]

23 minutes ago, timon said:

Still, I'd like for Relics to be a bit easier to repair, I just wind up never using them in fear of running out when I need it.

This is pretty much me in a nutshell. My personal preference would be to make relics work like high tier spells. They have VERY limited durability allowing only 1 or 2 uses of combat arts before running out of power, but they recharge between battles just like spells. This would make me much more likely to use them. If such a complex system could be implemented it would even be nifty if the weapons had more durability when equipped to someone with the right crest, so say 4 durability for the incorrect crest and 8 durability for the right crest or something.



As for the topic. I actually have the opposite problem. The lack of might/magic combined classes bums me out. That said with the way the magic system works and doesn't take up equipment slots it isn't surprising that we don't get a lot of combined classes. When magic competes for equipment slots it is a lot more balanced to implement into dual focus classes. But when you get a bunch of free casts of all your spells just by having access to spell casting that very quickly can become unbalanced. But still the biggest reason I don't go mage Byleth isn't the spell list, but rather that you have to pick between dedicated fighter or dedicated caster. Beyond commoner you just don't get any mixed class until much later. And between those two choices the optimal choice is rather obvious. Plus this system means that the magic unlock unlocks all magic so there is a strong incentive to run down both the reason and faith paths rather than just one. So it would be nice if the physical classes each unlocked magic up to a certian point. So something like Mercenary may unlock Reason and Faith up to D rank. Where as  if a class just unlocks just one path it may unlock D+ or even C rank at intermediate(obviously the training would still let you go above those limits, the class just wouldn't be able to equip the spells, it may not make a lot of sense, but if you think about it from a component perspective in many types of fiction more powerful spells require more powerful components and someone who focuses their funds and supplies in one direction just may not have the needed supplies on hand for the higher level spells even if they technically know how to cast them).

[Ertrick36]

46 minutes ago, timon said:

On that note, I'm so glad of how they built weapon durability this time around, the Awakening/BOTW system is so atupidly frustrating, especially if you like some weapons in particular.

The biggest problem for me with durability systems has always been that once they break, they're gone forever.  That's fine for average, run of the mill weapons you can buy - it's even fine for more unique weapons like armorslayers and the like.  But when you get your hands on that special one-of-a-kind weapon you can only get from defeating the uber mega boss in a secret, hidden level and you're only allowed to use it, like, ten times before it breaks, then it sucks because it then just feels like it exists mostly to be a tease until you get to the very end of the game.

Enabling you to repair weapons makes it an actually interesting system that emphasizes inventory management without telling you that you're screwed out of luck if you break your one-of-a-kind weapons.  And with that said, I also agree on the matter with relics.  You are able to repair them with some rare ores, but... well, they're rare.  I think you get some from the Dark Merchant and/or Anna, but that's pretty late into the game, and you get your first relic literally in the fourth chapter.

 

Anyway, if a good game proves too easy, just limit yourself.

One thing I'll suggest is doing a PMU, because then your characters' performance is at the mercy of players.  And I'd also recommend imposing other limits on such a run, such as abstaining from using Divine Pulses or not doing auxiliary battles (other than the one that's required).

[Lightcosmo]

8 hours ago, Ced von Lewyn said:

It does indeed allow for corrections of mistakes without replaying the entire map, but it's not the best system to put in place. I would impose a limited resource. One that saves your game in the middle of a chapter, that can't be repaired, and incentives you not to use it.

This makes me think of Tear Ring Saga's save staff. Anyway, on topic, I'm okay with the game being the way it is. Some people enjoy being high level and powering through enemies, there is nothing wrong with that. Sure you could also say things like "fliers being to good makes the game no fun". Well, a lot of FE's have things that are "too good", it's not much different, really.

[Burklight]

8 hours ago, Ced von Lewyn said:

Finally, the turn wheel. I have my idea as how to fix it, and I would like to hear your thoughts on it. Each use of the turn wheel allows for you to go anywhere on the time line, even back to the beginning of the map. I've seen two good reasons for its existence.

1. It means those who don't ironman never have to restart an entire map.

2. It gives a safety net for new players.

 

It does indeed allow for corrections of mistakes without replaying the entire map, but it's not the best system to put in place. I would impose a limited resource. One that saves your game in the middle of a chapter, that can't be repaired, and incentives you not to use it.

I honestly don't think the auxiliary battles or the turn wheel or divine pulse or whatever they're calling this iteration of it is a problem, I think it's a symptom. If you're the game developer attempting to make a meaning difficulty curve, it's going to be basically impossible in a game like this where you have no idea what the player is going to do at the time of development because of how many choices you know you're going to give the player. So what you do instead is lean on the side of making it on the more difficult end, but then throw in auxiliary battles and a turn wheel as a lazy design solution in case you effed up and made it too hard.

[daisy jane]

6 hours ago, timon said:

Thank god there aren't excessive limitations, it is SUCH a pain in modern RPGs with all that minmaxed inventory management.

On that note, I'm so glad of how they built weapon durability this time around, the Awakening/BOTW system is so atupidly frustrating, especially if you like some weapons in particular.

Still, I'd like for Relics to be a bit easier to repair, I just wind up never using them in fear of running out when I need it.

the same. I love using magic bows and what not, (and the relics) but most times when i go farming i get ONE piece of stone. so basically i relics and Blessed weapons (parthia, Ingrid's Gradivus 😉 ) etc) on the final map. 

[ra2bk]

Sounds like you haven't played on Maddening yet.

[iavasechui]

My last playthrough I was sitting on around 30 stones to repair my legendary weapons so I went to town with them mainly on Catherine since hers has 30 uses. Mithril was harder to come by but I was able to use the silver relics often enough without feeling it was impossible to fix them. But oh dear god I could not have free reign with my brave weapons as I just could not get enough to repair or even upgrade them

[NobodiePichu]

id personally enjoy a few more limitations, it can make for a more interesting and cohesive experience if your building a game knowing the player will have such and such by such point as opposed to the more nebulous gameplay structures that's required with a free for all build as you like approach that i feel has been a contributor in some part to the iffier map design thats been going through the series lately, but i can respect that some people want a 'i can play it my way' experience and really they just need to buckle down the design at this point because other games have managed to accomplish stuff like that just fine.

my problem in three houses is some of the arbitrary decisions the game holsts onto you that hurt more then help and make no sense. female characters cant become war masters or dark mages even though those lines would directly benefit lystheia and hilda who are built in that direction, males cant become gremories even though that would directly benifit characters like indhardt who are built in those directions, the intermediate flyer class is female exclusive but the advanced flyer class is for both meaning male characters have a harder time building flyer experience early game and that if you want ingrids post timeskip outfit in battle she needs to be an intermediate class, even stuff like flayn having a deficiency in riding but a proficiency in flying and lances even though stat wise shes clearly a mage and has some basis to become a holy knight are just kinda silly.

[Wolfen09]

Place the limitations yourself, that's the only way I can play a game multiple times anymore.  Nobody starts with the nuzlocke, but without it on consecutive playthroughs the games are just boring.

[pekingduck]

On 9/16/2019 at 11:29 AM, NobodiePichu said:

id personally enjoy a few more limitations, it can make for a more interesting and cohesive experience if your building a game knowing the player will have such and such by such point as opposed to the more nebulous gameplay structures that's required with a free for all build as you like approach that i feel has been a contributor in some part to the iffier map design thats been going through the series lately, but i can respect that some people want a 'i can play it my way' experience and really they just need to buckle down the design at this point because other games have managed to accomplish stuff like that just fine.

my problem in three houses is some of the arbitrary decisions the game holsts onto you that hurt more then help and make no sense. female characters cant become war masters or dark mages even though those lines would directly benefit lystheia and hilda who are built in that direction, males cant become gremories even though that would directly benifit characters like indhardt who are built in those directions, the intermediate flyer class is female exclusive but the advanced flyer class is for both meaning male characters have a harder time building flyer experience early game and that if you want ingrids post timeskip outfit in battle she needs to be an intermediate class, even stuff like flayn having a deficiency in riding but a proficiency in flying and lances even though stat wise shes clearly a mage and has some basis to become a holy knight are just kinda silly.

Yeah, especially after fewer gender-class boundaries was something that Fates did right, it was disappointing to see gender-exclusive class lines in Three Houses. I really enjoyed male Pegasus Knights in Fates.

[Kain the mediocre knight]

6 hours ago, Wolfen09 said:

Place the limitations yourself, that's the only way I can play a game multiple times anymore.  Nobody starts with the nuzlocke, but without it on consecutive playthroughs the games are just boring.

Yes, I agree on that front. Where I come from is that I personally would like a more tight nit and limited system. As someone who does I can't say I really love a game if I must throw half, or even more, of its mechanics out.

[Kain the mediocre knight]

On 9/16/2019 at 1:48 AM, eclipse said:

If you're unable to have fun without having another person telling you what you can't do. . .that's on you.  No, you don't have to use everything given at every single time.  Ignore the turn wheel if it's that bad.  These are conscious choices by you, the player.

There was a portion in my post about my first playthrough. In it I expressed how I liked it because of the limitations I put on myself. I can't say that I like the game though. My thought process is, "If I must throw half the game away, do I really like the game?" My answer is no, and I'm expressing what I'd do to tailer the experience for myself. 

[Kain the mediocre knight]

On 9/16/2019 at 1:34 AM, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

The things you bring up aren't really wrong and I agree with some of them too, but your conclusion itself confuses me. You're saying that limitations in older games bring about multiple solutions... But how does the lack of limitations cause there to only be one way to beat a chapter? Doesn't the lack of limitations let you play the game however you want? Wouldn't limitations in older games have stopped you from going with certain solutions?

Where I'm coming from is this. When there is complete freedom to choose whatever you want, the only logical thing to do is make everybody the best class, and give everybody the best weapons. 

 

You can see this with everyone using wyverns.

 

Ah! I just had an epiphany. If three houses made the classes more specialized with each having a boon and a bane, then you would see each class have a purpose.

 

This isn't the case, as sone classes are inherently better than others. Making it stupid to choose other classes.

[Flere210]

Please not the chazz thing. 

No casual player wilm ever use it because an item wiyh limited charge instantly fall into the "it's too good, what if i need more later?"

You can't make a crutch in such a way that casual player don't use it, if you really don't want to help them just say that you don't want a turnwheel. This seems outright trolling them. 

And hording is not even a pitfall if you play blind. Good luck beating any FF superboss whitout a megaelixir.

[eclipse]

3 hours ago, Kai the glove eating night said:

There was a portion in my post about my first playthrough. In it I expressed how I liked it because of the limitations I put on myself. I can't say that I like the game though. My thought process is, "If I must throw half the game away, do I really like the game?" My answer is no, and I'm expressing what I'd do to tailer the experience for myself. 

Yet those that intentionally limit themselves have fun with their game, and not just 3H.  Shadow Dragon is listed as my favorite FE, and my favorite type of run is a draft, where certain items are banned, and my team is based off of an insanely limited pool of characters.

Fun, like real life, is what you make of it, because the rules aren't apparent - or don't exist.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

5 hours ago, Kai the glove eating night said:

Where I'm coming from is this. When there is complete freedom to choose whatever you want, the only logical thing to do is make everybody the best class, and give everybody the best weapons. 

 

You can see this with everyone using wyverns.

 

Ah! I just had an epiphany. If three houses made the classes more specialized with each having a boon and a bane, then you would see each class have a purpose.

 

This isn't the case, as sone classes are inherently better than others. Making it stupid to choose other classes.

I agree that wyverns are broken and the class system in this game is overall imbalanced, but from what you're saying, I don't think your problem is really with "lack of limitations", but more dissatisfaction with what the optimal state of the game seems to be like (a sentiment I agree with).

If you assume optimal play for every FE game, then there is no logical reason to do many things. A sizable chunk of Thracia, FE6 and Shadow Dragon is just skipped using Warp; there are basically no limitations to Warp in Thracia and relatively few limitations in FE6 and SD, so there is no "logical reason" to not skip those maps. You don't really have to use most of the Dawn Brigade and really many other characters in Radiant Dawn as soon as you get Jill because you should just dump all your statboosters into her and have her carry you alongside Haar and a few others. Conquest is best played when lowmanned by relying on Corrin and Paladin Jakob, followed by Camilla and Xander when they arrive.

If you don't like any of the above playstyles, that's fine, but opting not to use them is already an arbitrary limitation you've placed on yourself, and pretty much the same thing as opting not to make your TH game Wyvern City. But if you're completely fine with all of the above, then I honestly don't think your problem is with a lack of limitations.

Again, I'm just trying to say what I think your complaint with the game really is, not that you're wrong.

Edited September 18, 2019 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[charcoalswift]

I like the turnwheel, saves me time from having to restart the game due to unlucky RNG

[Elephantus]

5 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I agree that wyverns are broken and the class system in this game is overall imbalanced, but from what you're saying, I don't think your problem is really with "lack of limitations", but more dissatisfaction with what the optimal state of the game seems to be like (a sentiment I agree with).

If you assume optimal play for every FE game, then there is no logical reason to do many things. A sizable chunk of Thracia, FE6 and Shadow Dragon is just skipped using Warp; there are basically no limitations to Warp in Thracia and relatively few limitations in FE6 and SD, so there is no "logical reason" to not skip those maps. You don't really have to use most of the Dawn Brigade and really many other characters in Radiant Dawn as soon as you get Jill because you should just dump all your statboosters into her and have her carry you alongside Haar and a few others. Conquest is best played when lowmanned by relying on Corrin and Paladin Jakob, followed by Camilla and Xander when they arrive.

If you don't like any of the above playstyles, that's fine, but opting not to use them is already an arbitrary limitation you've placed on yourself, and pretty much the same thing as opting not to make your TH game Wyvern City. But if you're completely fine with all of the above, then I honestly don't think your problem is with a lack of limitations.

Again, I'm just trying to say what I think your complaint with the game really is, not that you're wrong.

I'm not sure what you're describing is really a "limitation" though.
To me, a limitation is to deliberately not use a feature. For instance, when I play Breath of the Wild, I don't heal during battle because I don't like the fact that you can pause the game and heal at any time without penalty. In other words, I'm not using a feature. Using varied classes is a different thing, because when I do that (and I do, got one Wyvern and one Pegasus on my team in my current run), it's not a deliberate decision to limit myself. Instead, it's the result of getting joy out of each character having a different role and playstyle.

In other words, I do understand the OP's problem, and I feel similarly. My favourite parts of any Fire Emblem are often the early game, because that's when I have to rely on limited resources. However, I know that not everyone likes this sort of thing, and having choices in a game is a positive in my eyes. Let those who want to break the game with an army of Wyverns break the game with an army of Wyverns. I personally find that incredibly boring and will never play that way, but to each their own. If that was the ONLY way to play though? That's when we're reaching problem territory.

[Garlyle]

I guess that's true - the game makes it very easy for you with all the forging, classes, divine pulses, battalions, combat arts, the amount of money you are getting, the convoy which cannot be full at any time(400 is pretty high), and so on.

I am trying to give myself some challenge by limiting my future runs, like how Maddening is limiting my exp income. My Hard/Classic no Pulse Ironman run - I am not worries. My Maddening run - still worried.