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Canto or no Canto?


Von Ithipathachai
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Canto or no Canto?  

30 members have voted

  1. 1. Should mounted units have Canto?

    • Yes
      21
    • No
      9


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One of the reasons mounted units tend to become broken aside from their superior Mov is their access to Canto in several games.  It gives them a significant edge in versatility over non-mounted units, letting them do useful things like hit and run attacks and rescuing units from danger.

While some of you may be aware of my general dislike of mounted units, I still can't help but find enjoyment in setting up stuff like that whenever I get to.  How do you guys like mounted units having Canto?

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I personally would like all units to have Canto. I get the lore reason for it just being mounted units, but I think the flexibility of moving part of your range and then moving back would add an extra layer to strategy if applied to all units. As it is, locking it to mounts just makes them dumb. 

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i love the Genealogy/PoR/RD/3H version of canto and i think it should be in every FE title

the problem is not that canto is broken: it's that non mounted units don't have a skill as good as canto

Edited by Yexin
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Canto just inherently gives the classes with mobility advantages (aka generally the best stat in FE) even more room to flex their advantages over everyone else. I know FE isn’t an entire balanced game series but I feel like it’s a thing that only centralizes mounts even harder in literally any game with Canto. 

I wonder would FE benefit or be made worse if everyone had Canto...

Edited by SubwayBossEmmett
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I'm assuming the 'yes' is for move-attack-move, and the 'no' still leaves room for move-trade/drop-move. In which case; yes Canto, but yes forced dismount indoors as well. Cavalry can be the queen of the open field as long as they're mildly shit indoors. Otherwise, no.

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2 minutes ago, Parrhesia said:

I'm assuming the 'yes' is for move-attack-move, and the 'no' still leaves room for move-trade/drop-move. In which case; yes Canto, but yes forced dismount indoors as well. Cavalry can be the queen of the open field as long as they're mildly shit indoors. Otherwise, no.

Like I don’t have particular strong feelings for mounting/dismounting in other games but the way 3H handles this was sooooo poorly done. Like you can just dismount and remount yourself at will just meaning you can temporarily shed your flying weakness if you wanted to in early game. 

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I like the way Canto diversifies mobility types. I'd be fine with it as long as the following are also in play:

 - Forced dismounting in indoor maps or on certain terrain

 - Non-negligible incorporation of terrain that are advantageous for infantry (Berwick Saga Cliffs, FE10 Ledges etc.)

 - Some significant movement perks of infantry (FE5/9/10-esque requirement of rescuee being infantry/dismounted, repositioning skills only working on infantry/dismounted units, etc.)

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Here's a crazy idea, instead of unilaterally giving it to all mounted units, make it a mounted exclusive skill that's treated like a normal skill. That is to say, either limited availability or walled off by a level/weapon rank etc. Make canto the equivalent of packing astra and suddenly it's much more balanced. Should I give my Dragon Lord canto, or immunity to bows? It'd still be really good, but not "if you don't have a horse, then why are you even here" good.

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12 minutes ago, Yexin said:

they do

what made you think otherwise?

I just killed them before they ever got to use it, or didn't notice it/skipped enemy phase animations. In that case, it's fine.

Edited by De Geso
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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Here's a crazy idea, instead of unilaterally giving it to all mounted units, make it a mounted exclusive skill that's treated like a normal skill.

So TearRing Saga?

Canto is there, but it isn't on every mounted unit. Some have it, some learn it via leveling, others never get it at all. It's always lost when dismounting too. And, the game provides three skill scrolls of Canto, which I guess can be used to give it to anyone. But I never used a single scroll, so I can't say if it can actually give the skill to infantry.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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47 minutes ago, De Geso said:

I just killed them before they ever got to use it, or didn't notice it/skipped enemy phase animations. In that case, it's fine.

Have you played Genealogy? Pretty noticeable there, especially when NPC armies fight each other.

33 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

So TearRing Saga?

Canto is there, but it isn't on every mounted unit. Some have it, some learn it via leveling, others never get it at all. It's always lost when dismounting too. And, the game provides three skill scrolls of Canto, which I guess can be used to give it to anyone. But I never used a single scroll, so I can't say if it can actually give the skill to infantry.

Sounds good. I should make an effort to play TearRing some time. Sounds like it does a lot right.

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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Sounds good. I should make an effort to play TearRing some time. Sounds like it does a lot right.

Well not everything is right, it still has flaws (it could use a hard mode for one), but it is pretty much an FE in all but name. One would end up a little tipsy at points if you made a drinking game out of "spot the FE 1-5 borrowing!", though not flat-out blacked out. Give it try.

I just tend to bring up the game because, although IS would never use it as a point of reference, it still should be considered when fans discuss how things might be improved, when there is something in TRS worth bringing into that conversation.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

 One would end up a little tipsy at points if you made a drinking game out of "spot the FE 1-5 borrowing!", though not flat-out blacked out. Give it try.

Didn’t Kaga almost have a lawsuit on his hands from Nintendo for being too similar to Fire Emblem?

Edited by SubwayBossEmmett
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14 minutes ago, SubwayBossEmmett said:

Didn’t Kaga almost have a lawsuit on his hands from Nintendo for being too similar to Fire Emblem?

There was a lawsuit, and Kaga had to pay up for it. But that was when he called it "Emblem Saga". Kaga intended to set in the Archanea-Valentia-Jugdral world, and possibly to feature Xane I think he might have hinted at. He dropped all emblems (even though there are a bunch of unused items called Emblems in the game's data), and removed all direct connections to the prior games when he lost the lawsuit.

He also recolored Runan from blue haired to blackish-brown. But, that didn't stop him from giving Runan the lord an exclusive Rapier. Nor did it stop him from making Sasha's hair blue, or her being the princess of an island kingdom, or promoting into a Pegasus Knight. Does that sound familiar?

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

There was a lawsuit, and Kaga had to pay up for it. But that was when he called it "Emblem Saga". Kaga intended to set in the Archanea-Valentia-Jugdral world, and possibly to feature Xane I think he might have hinted at. He dropped all emblems (even though there are a bunch of unused items called Emblems in the game's data), and removed all direct connections to the prior games when he lost the lawsuit.

He also recolored Runan from blue haired to blackish-brown. But, that didn't stop him from giving Runan the lord an exclusive Rapier. Nor did it stop him from making Sasha's hair blue, or her being the princess of an island kingdom, or promoting into a Pegasus Knight. Does that sound familiar?

So wow IS wasn’t just soft remaking FE1 via FE6 they were also stealing Kaga’s idea of soft remaking FE1. 

Kaga literally did it first 

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Personally I hate Canto, because it gives Cavalry an even bigger advantage than they already have, I feel it was best handled in the gba games, where it's more of a rescuedrop chain booster. Fe4s Canto is honestly disgusting with how busted it makes cavalry, it doesn't even make sense that you can swap weapons on the fly like that, like you'd have to strap the current weapon into a saddlebag or something and whip out a second weapon, and infantry would just have to sheath their current weapon and draw a new one so they'd have an easy time insta-swapping weapons (yes I know it's a just game logic, but it's still dumb) 

Canto could be balanced out slightly by only letting you use only half of the remaining movement rounding down and taking up skill slots where applicable. 

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2 hours ago, SubwayBossEmmett said:

So wow IS wasn’t just soft remaking FE1 via FE6 they were also stealing Kaga’s idea of soft remaking FE1. 

Kaga literally did it first 

To comprise a full list of "borrowings" (includes MASSIVE SPOILERS!)

Some major characters and their major supporters:

Spoiler

marth = Runan 

Sword infantries called Lords with balanced stats, Rapiers, and an anti-dragon sword called the Holy Sword of Reeve. Similar personalities too.

Like Marth (and Leif and Seliph), Runan begins his journey when he flees from his country to find refuge on an island kingdom. Although, Marth spent three years on Talys in relative peace, while Runan docks at Welt and immediately finds himself having to solve a little civil war that lasts for nearly ten maps.

 

morodofjeiganAugustDorias = latest?cb=20101023035920 

Eugen, Runan's unplayable tactician advisor.

 

face-alm.jpg = Sennet 

Sennet, the son of the tragically deceased 1st prince of Canaan Arless, leader of an elite military group known as the Black Knights. Canaan is the big evil kingdom in TearRing Saga, like Rigel. Sennet and his twin sister Neyfa grew up not knowing they were the secret heirs. But, unlike Alm, Sennet found out at the start of his journey it seems (Sennet does his very important warring offstage, but it could totally be its own game, I wish it was).

face-celica.jpg = Tia

Tia, the lost princess of the fallen kingdom of Leda. It seems she grew up with Sennet, and found out about her royalty roots around the same time as him. She can use Swords and all kinds of magic but Dark, just as Celica can. She also does her stuff mostly offstage. But like Celica, she does get captured by the big evil sorcerer.🙁

face-mycen.jpg=Temsin ?

Temujin the Warlord, a former Swordmaster of Canaan of incredible might. He betrayed when it invaded Leda and established himself as the independent Lord of Erial. A strict, tough-love old man who is the "grandfather" to Sennet and Neyfa. He fought alongside them from beginning to the end offscreen.

Evayle = Katina

Katrina the Swordmaster, daughter of Temujin. 15 years ago, she was a mercenary in Canaan. Neyfa's dying wetnurse came to her with baby Sennet and Neyfa in tow, having rescued them from a fire set by the Gerxel Cult to kill the two. Katrina took them to Erial and raised them as her own children, to the point Neyfa calls her "Mother", just as Eyvel raised the royalty of Leif and Nanna (and Mareeta) as her own. 

garnefjudahmanfroyNergallatest?cb=20120918003707

Guenchaos, leader of the Cult of Gerxel. Via the Witch Carla as concubine of King Bahanuk of Canaan, he has been able to manipulate Canaan into doing his bidding.

A dark evil sorcerer with a tome able to immobilize anyone who would harm him. Once a promising student of the White Sage Morse, he killed all his fellow Sages as they were threats to his world domination.

Gerxel is the god of the Zoan people, who long ago and in the present day were/are oppressed by other peoples of continent of Lieberant. Gerxel is a warrior god, but the Gerxel worshipped by the good Zoans and that of the Cult of Gerxel are not the same, the latter is much more evil. 

The oppression of the Zoans long ago led a man named Kalbazan to form the Gerxel Cult. He became a dark dragon, Gerxel incarnate, who established the vile Zoan Empire, which destroyed the good Gran Reeve Republic, and reigned until Carluon and the goddess Yutona slew him.

Why I'd bring up Nergal? Who didn't even exist until a few years after TRS? Well, his servant Carla controlling Canaan is a little like how Sonia controlled Brendan and the Black Fang. 

And, just as Nergal fell into darkness because he wanted to bring back his dead dragon wife, Guenchaos went evil because his wife died. Well, not died exactly.

Guenchaos was the Earth Sage in Leda, whose fiancee was Princess Tita of Leda. When Leda was losing a war with Salia, her father saw she bore a holy blood brand, the Mark of Yutona, and used the Ring of Leda, a sacred bracelet, to turn her into the Earth Dragon Kranion. Tita couldn't control her power and killed her father, and then went on a rampage devastating Salia and leaving Leda utterly annihilated and in chaos.

This convinced Guenchaos humanity was irredeemable, and so he set out to annihilate it. He would also welcome Gerxel into his body and thus join his Tita, who was subdued by a group of heroes but still very much alive, deadly, and sadly a degenerate dragon. With their immortal dragon bodies, they would live happily together forever.

 

RenaMariaNinaEllis = EntehKatriNeyfaTia

To become Gerxel incarnate, Guenchaos must capture four princesses bearing the Mark of Yutona and then drain them of their blood. These princesses are called Shamans, able to take on dragon form (Muse the Water Dragon, Neuron the Fire, Rakis the Wind, Kranion the Earth) once they reach 15 years of age. This exactly like Gharnef's resurrection plan for Medeus in FE3.

The princesses are, from left to right:

  • Maeve/Enteh, Shaman of Water and Princess of Reeve, love interest of Runan
  • Maria/Katri, Shaman of Fire and Princess of Salia, love interest of Holmes
  • Nefya, Shaman of Wind and Princess of Canaan
  • Tia, Shaman of Earth and Princess of Leda, love interest of Richard

 

Speaking of Richard, in personality and class he does not match anyone, but visually, well:

trabant1Richard

Is it just me? Or does the hairstyle seem like more than a coincidence?

 

And by the way, Gerxel. Well, he doesn't actually exist.

It turns out there were these ancient beings called "Emiyu" who once ruled the Earth, and they chose to go into eternal sleep and pass on rule to the humans instead. But, the Emiyu king thought his daughter Miradona was too young for that, so he kept her awake. Miradona was loved by most humans when she walked among them, and became known as the Earth Mother, but the Zoans feared her and she became the warrior Gerxel in their eyes. She later decided to leave humanity and reside in an underground cave, which she protected with monsters she made.

But later, Kalbazan came to her, and she, not realizing the consequences, gave him a drop of her blood. That turned him into a berserk dragon, but she never noticed this because she remained unaware of worldly events outside the cave. So Miradona is Loptous. Later, Kalbazan brought sacrifices of young maidens into the cave. Miradona heard one cry out, and she saved her, finding out the truth of what had happened above. She then gave this maiden her Emiyu blood, and a bracelet to control the power this time, this maiden became Yutona, worshipped as Earth Mother Miradona's goddess daughter henceforth. Yutona with Carluon then killed Kalbazan. So, Miradona is Naga too.

 

Who tells you all this? Well much of the details comes from Katri's adoptive father the bishop Law. Why would a lowly priest in a port town know all this? He doesn't. He died actually from some pirates. His body became occupied by the White Sage Morse, whose actual body is somewhere else. This makes Morse, mentor to all other sages and very likely hundreds of years old, a combination of two FE characters:

gatolevin2 

 

For more minor borrowings:

Spoiler

marich = Maruju

This is Maruj, the first Mage you can get. He has Wundergust exclusive to him, it has medium Mt and 20 Crit, like Excalibur.

linda =Meriah

This is Meriel, daughter of the Sage Octavus who Guenchaos killed. She can use Fire and Light Magic, including the very strong Starlight and map-covering Aura Rain. 

sheeda = Sasha

This is that Sasha girl I mentioned before.

kainabel =KreissArkis

Kreiss and Arkis, the Christmas Knights who are best friends.

sajimajibarts =Barts

Meet the woodcutter Fighter Barts. Yes, his name is Barts. What?

navarre =Vega

Vega, the Reaper of Schram. He is stoic, mysterious, deadly, and starts as an enemy. But he is much better than Navarre, because his sword not only has 20 Crit, it halves all incoming damage, and is effective against monsters.

gordonRyan =Ruka

Luca, a green-haired starting Archer. And like Ryan, he is a little brother to another bow user, albeit this time a female Sniper, Raquel.

hardineltshan =Lionheart

His real name is Raziel, but everyone calls him Lionheart, Wolf of the Plains of Selba. A Nomad Trooper/Bow Knight, like Hardin's second-in-commands Wolf and Sedgar.

paolakatuaest =VernaMahterFrau

Verna, Martel, and Frau, the Pegasus Knight sisters with a Triangle Attack.

Cecil = Estelle?

They are both female cavaliers with similar hair color. But little else in common admittedly.

briggid =Raquel

This is Raquel, who is so good a Sniper, that her ingame title is "Daughter of Brigid"- the Goddess of Archery. Referencing Brigid and Eyvel in the same game with two separate characters, Kaga really did love Brigid, he resurrected her after all.

ishtarOlwen=Alicia

This is Alicia, the Thunder Mage. She has the exclusive Brenthunder, which has the Brave effect.

alvis1 =Rishel

Rishel, he is a Fire Mage with his signature tome Sunflame, which gives him +10 Def (and 45 effective Mt against monsters, and 1-3 range).

Dagdar=Samson?

This one is more conjecture. But Samson here is a Fighter and husband of Katrina. It's implied in FE5 Dagdar is attracted to Eyvel, so did Kaga hook up the two in another life?

Minerva = Reshe?

Resshea, princess of Canaan, who was adopted at a young age by the kingdom of Sophia. A Wyvern Knight. She joins with her nephew Sennet, but is still cordial with her brothers Barker and Julius.

misheil = Julius?

Both are very stubborn princes. Julius is the 3rd prince of Canaan, who has the exclusive Wyvern Lord class. You might also compare him to Travant.

sylvia = Plum

What is the parallel here? Well, Plum can become a Dancer, but you have to let her get temporarily enslaved first. Human trafficking and dancers seemed to go together in Kaga FE, and so it seems in TRS.

lawrence=Barborossa

You know how at the start of Book 2 Lorenz self-detonates? Barbarossa here does the same thing, he takes an entire castle with him.

And this excludes TRS having identical gameplay, down to specific skills like Dragon Saint, aka "Astra". Adept even has the same Japanese name- Continue.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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7 hours ago, Pengaius said:

Personally I hate Canto, because it gives Cavalry an even bigger advantage than they already have, I feel it was best handled in the gba games, where it's more of a rescuedrop chain booster. Fe4s Canto is honestly disgusting with how busted it makes cavalry, it doesn't even make sense that you can swap weapons on the fly like that, like you'd have to strap the current weapon into a saddlebag or something and whip out a second weapon, and infantry would just have to sheath their current weapon and draw a new one so they'd have an easy time insta-swapping weapons (yes I know it's a just game logic, but it's still dumb) 

Canto could be balanced out slightly by only letting you use only half of the remaining movement rounding down and taking up skill slots where applicable. 

When you think about it, is the idea of carrying five heavy weapons on your person really sensible? Where are they kept, exactly? Echoes system of holding one item actually makes some sense.

On topic: I'm fine with it, I guess. I suppose it's unbalanced, but this is FE we're talking about here, so... yeah.

Edited by lightcosmo
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