Crest monsters and worldbuilding (SPOILERS)

[Alastor15243]

So, I started my Golden Deer playthrough a while ago after beating Black Eagles, and one of the things that really, really stuck out to me on this second playthrough, before I decided to play other games, is how little I know about crest monsters despite them being a component of every single army in the game aside from the church, who uses robots. I was actually really curious to learn about them, and I asked a friend if any of the following questions were going to be answered or addressed in the process of this or any other route:

* How do you train and control crest monsters? The Almyrans demonstrate the ability to do it at least with the wolves and birds, if not demonic beasts, so obviously it doesn't require any kind of Those-Who-Slither-exclusive dark magic or technology to do. And if you don't need it, why do those who slither apparently prefer to use their own methods that can in some instances result in a bunch of demonic beasts simultaneously running amok and killing their soldiers, necessitating a whole paralogue to bail them out?

* Edelgard is willing to use demonic beasts in her army. Does the game ever address the monstrous hypocrisy of this? If half of her entire motivation for going against the church (the other half being, explained after you side with her, that the church is a literal Alex Jones shapeshifting reptilian conspiracy controlling the human race) is because they're the bastion and origin of the entire crest system and that she wants to put an end to crest-based classism and keep anyone from having to suffer like she did in the name of crests... why the hell is she willing to turn sentient human beings into horrifying monsters in the name of her goals? Are they willing volunteers? Are they just on loan from Those Who Slither? Is she just flat-out a hypocritical bitch? Or is this a result of getting pushed off the deep end without having the professor in her life? Why wouldn't she prefer to use the giant robots the kingdom and church seem to have access to? Surely the secrets wouldn't be that hard to steal if another entire country makes regular use of them.

* Why do the kingdom soldiers who turn into demonic beasts, and only the kingdom soldiers who turn into demonic beasts, have the presence of mind to not attack their friends, despite no taming and despite the kingdom not having any hypothetical mind control methods to control the beasts given they aren't associated with Those Who Slither and don't even seem willing to use these creatures in any other context? Is it willpower? If so, why wasn't Miklan, who was strong of will and charismatic enough to lead an entire bandit company and keep their respect to a degree even after he died, not strong enough to keep his mind like that, when a bunch of generic kingdom soldiers apparently were? And if they were indeed so exceptional, how did Dedue manage to determine which of them had the proper willpower and wouldn't run amok, all without ever letting Dimitri ever catch on about this plan?

* And finally, If crest stones are so rare and valuable, who keeps leaving them out in the middle of the woods for wild animals to find? Why are monsters mutated by crests such a common and natural occurrence that even in remote Almyra, they can capture and train enough to use in their army?

I received answers from my friend on these questions, but none of them were actually based on canon text. They were more educated guesses based on his interpretation of the story. When I asked him to tell me everything he knows for a fact about crest monsters, he basically told me the flavor text of the monsters when you use the info button on their stat sheets, and then struggled to think of anything else and told me he'd have to get back to me. If he didn't miss anything, and if these things really go entirely unaddressed... well let's say I'd be pretty disappointed.

Did my friend miss anything, or are these questions really not addressed by any of the routes?

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

So, I started my Golden Deer playthrough a while ago after beating Black Eagles, and one of the things that really, really stuck out to me on this second playthrough, before I decided to play other games, is how little I know about crest monsters despite them being a component of every single army in the game aside from the church, who uses robots. I was actually really curious to learn about them, and I asked a friend if any of the following questions were going to be answered or addressed in the process of this or any other route:

* How do you train and control crest monsters? The Almyrans demonstrate the ability to do it at least with the wolves and birds, if not demonic beasts, so obviously it doesn't require any kind of Those-Who-Slither-exclusive dark magic or technology to do. And if you don't need it, why do those who slither apparently prefer to use their own methods that can in some instances result in a bunch of demonic beasts simultaneously running amok and killing their soldiers, necessitating a whole paralogue to bail them out?

* Edelgard is willing to use demonic beasts in her army. Does the game ever address the monstrous hypocrisy of this? If half of her entire motivation for going against the church (the other half being, explained after you side with her, that the church is a literal Alex Jones shapeshifting reptilian conspiracy controlling the human race) is because they're the bastion and origin of the entire crest system and that she wants to put an end to crest-based classism and keep anyone from having to suffer like she did in the name of crests... why the hell is she willing to turn sentient human beings into horrifying monsters in the name of her goals? Are they willing volunteers? Are they just on loan from Those Who Slither? Is she just flat-out a hypocritical bitch? Or is this a result of getting pushed off the deep end without having the professor in her life? Why wouldn't she prefer to use the giant robots the kingdom and church seem to have access to? Surely the secrets wouldn't be that hard to steal if another entire country makes regular use of them.

* Why do the kingdom soldiers who turn into demonic beasts, and only the kingdom soldiers who turn into demonic beasts, have the presence of mind to not attack their friends, despite no taming and despite the kingdom not having any hypothetical mind control methods to control the beasts given they aren't associated with Those Who Slither and don't even seem willing to use these creatures in any other context? Is it willpower? If so, why wasn't Miklan, who was strong of will and charismatic enough to lead an entire bandit company and keep their respect to a degree even after he died, not strong enough to keep his mind like that, when a bunch of generic kingdom soldiers apparently were? And if they were indeed so exceptional, how did Dedue manage to determine which of them had the proper willpower and wouldn't run amok, all without ever letting Dimitri ever catch on about this plan?

* And finally, If crest stones are so rare and valuable, who keeps leaving them out in the middle of the woods for wild animals to find? Why are monsters mutated by crests such a common and natural occurrence that even in remote Almyra, they can capture and train enough to use in their army?

I received answers from my friend on these questions, but none of them were actually based on canon text. They were more educated guesses based on his interpretation of the story. When I asked him to tell me everything he knows for a fact about crest monsters, he basically told me the flavor text of the monsters when you use the info button on their stat sheets, and then struggled to think of anything else and told me he'd have to get back to me. If he didn't miss anything, and if these things really go entirely unaddressed... well let's say I'd be pretty disappointed.

Did my friend miss anything, or are these questions really not addressed by any of the routes?

I haven't played the Kingdom route, so I don't know the context there, but I would suggest that perhaps most people who transform into crest monsters do retain a certain level of sentience, as displayed in Lysithea's paralogue (while the other crest monster legendary heroes seem to have full sentience). It just so happens that most crest monsters you fight want to kill you anyway because of their allegiances  as humans. The only thing I've encountered so far where that wouldn't remain true is the ending of Church route. But that's just kind of random over all.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I haven't played the Kingdom route, so I don't know the context there, but I would suggest that perhaps most people who transform into crest monsters do retain a certain level of sentience, as displayed in Lysithea's paralogue (while the other crest monster legendary heroes seem to have full sentience). It just so happens that most crest monsters you fight want to kill you anyway because of their allegiances  as humans. The only thing I've encountered so far where that wouldn't remain true is the ending of Church route. But that's just kind of random over all.

Oh, that's on the empire route, not kingdom. The final battle with Dimitri. And also, the students turned into demonic beasts at that abandoned church building seemed more than happy to murder their classmates.

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Oh, that's on the empire route, not kingdom. The final battle with Dimitri. And also, the students turned into demonic beasts at that abandoned church building seemed more than happy to murder their classmates.

Ah, empire. I guess that makes more sense as you're fighting against them. I've only played Church and Alliance so far, which back to back has left me rather inundated (unfortunate I played the copy and pasted routes back to back). Waiting for the DLC to come out now before I go back to it.

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

* Edelgard is willing to use demonic beasts in her army. Does the game ever address the monstrous hypocrisy of this? If half of her entire motivation for going against the church (the other half being, explained after you side with her, that the church is a literal Alex Jones shapeshifting reptilian conspiracy controlling the human race) is because they're the bastion and origin of the entire crest system and that she wants to put an end to crest-based classism and keep anyone from having to suffer like she did in the name of crests... why the hell is she willing to turn sentient human beings into horrifying monsters in the name of her goals? Are they willing volunteers? Are they just on loan from Those Who Slither? Is she just flat-out a hypocritical bitch? Or is this a result of getting pushed off the deep end without having the professor in her life? Why wouldn't she prefer to use the giant robots the kingdom and church seem to have access to? Surely the secrets wouldn't be that hard to steal if another entire country makes regular use of them.

Without Byleth believing in her and siding with her, Edelgard uses any means necessary to fight her war. Hence why in Crimson Flower, there's no indication of Edelgard using Crests Beasts. Like in Chapter 12, the other routes have it that Crest Beasts attack and ultimately capture Rhea. In Crimson Flower, Rhea escapes and no Crests Beasts were used to capture her. Of course, the slithers still go out and are likely creating more, but at the same time, Edelgard restricts them so much more.

Probably why out of all the routes, Crimson Flower, the one route you side with Edelgard, has the least violent, bloody, and chaotic war in the game. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by eclipse

[Alastor15243]

@omegaxis1 That's funny, the quote option isn't working for your post. In fact I seem to remember this happening before with you, and someone else had that same problem quoting you. Any idea why?

But anyway, does the game say this? I don't recall any scene in Crimson Flower where she turns down Those Who Slither's offer of using demonic beasts, or talks about such an event taking place.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Alastor15243

[Jotari]

Quote aint working for me either. I want to point out that she does use crest beasts in the fight before the time skip. So she went to them as soon as war broke out. Way we're meant to understand it she marched right on the capital. Either they're really easy to obtain and train, or the empire already had them prepared.

[omegaxis1]

 

 

 

 

2

3 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

@omegaxis1 That's funny, the quote option isn't working for your post. In fact I seem to remember this happening before with you, and someone else had that same problem quoting you. Any idea why?

But anyway, does the game say this? I don't recall any scene in Crimson Flower where she turns down Those Who Slither's offer of using demonic beasts, or talks about such an event taking place.

 

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Quote aint working for me either. I want to point out that she does use crest beasts in the fight before the time skip. So she went to them as soon as war broke out. Way we're meant to understand it she marched right on the capital. Either they're really easy to obtain and train, or the empire already had them prepared.

No idea why it is only me. I better tell a mod again. I think this always happens whenever this place gets maintenance. 

Edelgard DOES use Crest Beasts in Chapter 11 and in the other routes, Chapter 12 as well. In fact, all scenes are the same in the other routes for after the battle, where Rhea transforms, attacks, and the Crest Beasts pile on her, and Byleth tries to help before Thales knocks him into a chasm. This is ultimately how it goes that Rhea is captured and Byleth is asleep for those years.

However, in Chapter 12 of Crimson Flower route, no Crest Beasts are used, Rhea escapes, and Byleth is asleep from Rhea's attack.

The slithers are by all accounts still helping Edelgard, but it's much more restrictive now given how the state of the war is going on Crimson Flower.

Spoiler

No Dukedom is formed, the Alliance isn't plunged into a civil war, but rather is a diplomatic debate. Everything suggests that Edelgard kept things from getting too chaotic for the sake of upholding the belief that Byleth would return.

 

[DefyingFates]

Huh. It's admittedly part of balancing the game, but I like that Byleth's presence is able to rein Edelgard in when she declares war; like an angel on her shoulder to counteract Hubert's devil. Neat!

[omegaxis1]

19 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Huh. It's admittedly part of balancing the game, but I like that Byleth's presence is able to rein Edelgard in when she declares war; like an angel on her shoulder to counteract Hubert's devil. Neat!

Edelgard even admits that without Byleth by her side, she would become much more ruthless and cold hearted. She guessed how she would act in the other routes.

[Boomhauer007]

To answer the actual question, your friend is about as close as any of us are going to get. Very little of what you brought up is explicitly discussed in game, educated guesses on inference is pretty much all we have to go on for this topic.

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, Boomhauer007 said:

To answer the actual question, your friend is about as close as any of us are going to get. Very little of what you brought up is explicitly discussed in game, educated guesses on inference is pretty much all we have to go on for this topic.

That... is a shame, honestly.

[Ivan Tridelan]

I suspect that if the transformation is voluntary, some semblance of consciousness remains (even if it's just a primal friend or foe idea imprinted into the new beastly mind). In the abandoned chapel mission, I'm fairly certain those students were forcibly transformed, by an Agarthian who is clearly missing a few screws no less.

If you do not side with her, Edelgard is forced to rely much more heavily on TWS, resulting in more prevalent use of Demonic beasts, among other insidious methods.

Incidentally, in the Sothis paralogue (Zanado, during part 1) the students distinguish between demonic beasts and (more?) normal ones: "Hawks to the rear, wolves to the front and a demonic beast at the canyon entrance". Maybe some of the beasts aren't supposed to be demonic? The fact that monsters are used by Count Gloucester to attack merchants headed for Riegan territory (Ignatz/Raphael paralogue) indicates that in-game there's a distinction between monsters (wild mutated beasts) and demonic beasts (engineered by TWS). The fact that both use crest stones could just be laziness on the developers part (a single weapon type for inhuman beasts)

[Alastor15243]

12 minutes ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

Incidentally, in the Sothis paralogue (Zanado, during part 1) the students distinguish between demonic beasts and (more?) normal ones: "Hawks to the rear, wolves to the front and a demonic beast at the canyon entrance". Maybe some of the beasts aren't supposed to be demonic? The fact that monsters are used by Count Gloucester to attack merchants headed for Riegan territory (Ignatz/Raphael paralogue) indicates that in-game there's a distinction between monsters (wild mutated beasts) and demonic beasts (engineered by TWS). The fact that both use crest stones could just be laziness on the developers part (a single weapon type for inhuman beasts)

My impression of the last point is that demonic beasts are mutated humans and the other crest monsters are mutated animals. Is that pattern not consistent? Don't they say the other crest monsters are what happens to animals when exposed to crests?

Edited September 19, 2019 by Alastor15243

[CyberNinja]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

My impression of the last point is that demonic beasts are mutated humans and the other crest monsters are mutated animals. Is that pattern not consistent? Don't they say the other crest monsters are what happens to animals when exposed to crests?

I assumed the giant wolves and birds were natural phenomena of magical beasts and that by there very nature, they had crests (being magical beasts) I simply assumed they were non-sapient/a lower form compared to say, dragons.

[Alastor15243]

8 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

I assumed the giant wolves and birds were natural phenomena of magical beasts and that by there very nature, they had crests (being magical beasts) I simply assumed they were non-sapient/a lower form compared to say, dragons.

I don't have the game right in front of me, but I know I remember the flavor text for their class said that they were normal wild animals mutated by crests.

[CyberNinja]

43 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I don't have the game right in front of me, but I know I remember the flavor text for their class said that they were normal wild animals mutated by crests.

Description for them states absorption of magic. doesn't seem to specify crest though.

[DefyingFates]

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

I don't have the game right in front of me, but I know I remember the flavor text for their class said that they were normal wild animals mutated by crests.

This. They're mutated by being exposed to Crest Stone fragments, which is why their weapons are Crest Stone Shards and not "Crest Stones of [Insert Name Here]".

[Druplesnubb]

Doesn't the description of Crest Stone Shard outright say something like "Shard of a Crest Stone that was swallowed by a wolf/bird/worm"?

[Etrurian emperor]

On 9/19/2019 at 1:26 PM, Alastor15243 said:

* Edelgard is willing to use demonic beasts in her army. Does the game ever address the monstrous hypocrisy of this? If half of her entire motivation for going against the church (the other half being, explained after you side with her, that the church is a literal Alex Jones shapeshifting reptilian conspiracy controlling the human race) is because they're the bastion and origin of the entire crest system and that she wants to put an end to crest-based classism and keep anyone from having to suffer like she did in the name of crests... why the hell is she willing to turn sentient human beings into horrifying monsters in the name of her goals? Are they willing volunteers? Are they just on loan from Those Who Slither? Is she just flat-out a hypocritical bitch? Or is this a result of getting pushed off the deep end without having the professor in her life? Why wouldn't she prefer to use the giant robots the kingdom and church seem to have access to? Surely the secrets wouldn't be that hard to steal if another entire country makes regular use of them.

Personally I don't think Edelgard turns humans into those sorts of monsters herself. That would see out of character. 

But Edelgard doesn't like things going to waste either. If the Slitherers already have turned people into beasts then she would likely accept borrowing them so its not a total waste of life. Part of the reason she's so driven is that she's desperate for the death of her family to have been for something worthwhile. She would likely rationalize using the beasts in the same way. They are already turned into monsters and that can't be undone so she could either mercy kill them or use them to create a world where no one will have to suffer like that and where she can slay the freaks who turned them into monsters. 

[Sid Starkiller]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Personally I don't think Edelgard turns humans into those sorts of monsters herself. That would see out of character. 

But Edelgard doesn't like things going to waste either. If the Slitherers already have turned people into beasts then she would likely accept borrowing them so its not a total waste of life. Part of the reason she's so driven is that she's desperate for the death of her family to have been for something worthwhile. She would likely rationalize using the beasts in the same way. They are already turned into monsters and that can't be undone so she could either mercy kill them or use them to create a world where no one will have to suffer like that and where she can slay the freaks who turned them into monsters. 

My interpretation was that without Byleth, she's willing to resort to more ruthless methods that she otherwise wouldn't. As the enemy, she uses demonic beasts, but as your ally she doesn't.

[Timlugia]

On 9/19/2019 at 6:42 AM, omegaxis1 said:

Without Byleth believing in her and siding with her, Edelgard uses any means necessary to fight her war. Hence why in Crimson Flower, there's no indication of Edelgard using Crests Beasts. Like in Chapter 12, the other routes have it that Crest Beasts attack and ultimately capture Rhea. In Crimson Flower, Rhea escapes and no Crests Beasts were used to capture her. Of course, the slithers still go out and are likely creating more, but at the same time, Edelgard restricts them so much more.

Ah, didn't she use Demonic Beast as early as in Chapter 11 Holy Tomb?

Edited September 21, 2019 by Timlugia

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Timlugia said:

Ah, didn't she use Demonic Beast as early as in Chapter 11 Holy Tomb?

BEFORE she had the case of having Byleth siding with her.

[Alastor15243]

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

BEFORE she had the case of having Byleth siding with her.

See, if that was on purpose and not just a consequence of it being an enemy-only unit, I personally would have had a dialogue scene at the base discuss her deciding not to use them. It would definitely have been an interesting and worthwhile exploration of her character to have her discuss that.

[Timlugia]

There are two groups of monster actually, Giant ones are animals exposed to some kind magic, but everything started with "demonic" were artificially created.

They have same gameplay mechanism but different descriptions.

 

Giant Bird: This massive bird has grown to an unnatural size through the absorption of magic.

Giant Crawler: This massive worm has grown to an unnatural size through the absorption of magic.

Giant Wolf: This massive wolf has grown to an unnatural size through the absorption of magic.

--------

Demonic Beast: This Demonic Beast has been twisted into this form by the Imperial Army. It bears a concealed Crest Stone on its forehead.

Flying Demonic Beast: An airborne Demonic Beast with enormous wings, this creature is swift and will often dodge attacks.

Giant Demonic Beast: A mammoth, bipedal Demonic Beast, this creature is robust, with powerful physical strength.