Would you become a manakete (or, would you give up your humanity to retain your sanity)

[Jotari]

So one of the plot points in Marth's games is that the dragons face a civilization ending event in the form of the degradation. Dragons are going berserk and no one knows why. To avoid this, dragons need to seal their powers within a stone. It might seem odd at first, but most dragons seems to have refused this option. Of the (currently) seven dragon tribes, only the fire, mage and divine dragons chose to become manaketes. With all the ice, wyvren, dagon and earth dragons (excluding Medeus) choosing to go literally insane than to become manaketes. It got me thinking about the decision. Xane says the dragons had no choice but to live as humans. Not humanoids, but humans. It seems, at least from his perspective, the process of being a manakete literally means changing species. We know dragons could take human form before becoming manaketes (as the flashback of Duma and Mila taking place before the degredation suggests, unless they chose to become manaketes centuries before hand for some other reason). But taking their actions and view points into account, I guess dragons spent most of the time in their dragon form, or their true form, before becoming manaketes. With human form just being an idle pastime of shape shifting.

So in trying to understand why so many dragons chose not to save their sanity, let's view the question from their perspective. As far as the dragons were concerned, they were a superior species rightfully viewed as gods. And they were being asked to become something more lowly. As humans, proud of being human, we might see this as a pretty arrogant approach. But imagine if the only way to save your life was becoming a herd animal permanently. Well not quite permanently. You still have the chance to very briefly return to human form, but doing so would actively put you nearer to death (exhausting Dragonstones is said to cause death even if that obviously isn't a gameplay mechanic). Would you do it? Would you literally give up your humanity to save your sanity? I think most people would immediately answer "hell yeah, if it's to save my life." But then consider how much focus we put on racial/cultural/sexual/ect identity as a society. If our very human identity was put into question, forcibly taken from us, how would that makes us feel? Being denied your culture is seen as something horrible, something people have fought and died to prevent, where does being denied one's species fit into that? One might think that the intellect and quality of life between a human and a dragon are roughly the same, but that's a very human perspective. We don't know how much of themselves the dragons lost by becoming manaketes, as we don't have any examples of sane dragons that aren't manaketes in the series (except possibly Grima, for a given definition of sane). Based on the reaction of the majority of the dragon population, it was a very big thing to ask. Then again, maybe most dragons were just racist and there's basically no difference to living as a dragon and living as a manakete. When you have such shining examples of morality as loptyr, that possibly can't be discounted.

This is obviously a fantasy issue that couldn't really affect us in real life (at least not until our reality gets significantly more sci fi and body swapping becomes a thing), but still, I think it could be interesting to consider the transition the dragons had go through and what that choice meant to them.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

In the end, I would rather die holding my sentience and knowing who I am than to lose myself and become a mindless beast. Neither options are good, but I want to remain me, even in a different form. In other words, I'm okay with losing my form as a human if it means I can still be me. That's the important thing.

Gotoh, Xane, and Tiki, they are who they are because they chose to never abandon their individuality. Naga accepted/made the proposal for the sake of allowing dragons to still keep their individuality. 

[Rapier]

Dragons aren't really losing their sanity by doing that, other than their powers (temporarily) and harming their pride, so I don't think the comparison stands.

I mean, I'd take it because I'd still be able to use my dragonstone whenever I needed. There's no point in keeping to my original form and accepting my certain doom.

[B.Leu]

Faulty title, dragon's can't have 'humanity' as they are not human. Shame on you. 😛

Gee, I wonder. It's either best case scenario, I die a mindless beast and get eaten as a five-star dish, or I get to live with my original overpowered body, with a new perfect body for thousand of years and gets to have all the time in the world to do things ! What a difficult choice. 😄
Though to be fair, it seems that sex is something you won't do often as a dragon so that a bad thing.

Honestly, dragons must be either really arrogant or really that differents from humans to think that having a human form is disgusting or something to loath.
Well, the racism they suffered probably did not help.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

In the end, I would rather die holding my sentience and knowing who I am than to lose myself and become a mindless beast. Neither options are good, but I want to remain me, even in a different form. In other words, I'm okay with losing my form as a human if it means I can still be me. That's the important thing.

Gotoh, Xane, and Tiki, they are who they are because they chose to never abandon their individuality. Naga accepted/made the proposal for the sake of allowing dragons to still keep their individuality. 

But are they really the same people as they would be if they had remained dragons and not gone mad? If you become a dog, and had to live like a dog, don't you think that would change who you are on some level.

1 hour ago, B.Leu said:

Faulty title, dragon's can't have 'humanity' as they are not human. Shame on you. 😛

Gee, I wonder. It's either best case scenario, I die a mindless beast and get eaten as a five-star dish, or I get to live with my original overpowered body, with a new perfect body for thousand of years and gets to have all the time in the world to do things ! What a difficult choice. 😄
Though to be fair, it seems that sex is something you won't do often as a dragon so that a bad thing.

Honestly, dragons must be either really arrogant or really that differents from humans to think that having a human form is disgusting or something to loath.
Well, the racism they suffered probably did not help.

This would have been before the racism. Humans couldn't do shit to dragons during the dragon golden age. Aside from Khaden (which the dragons destroyed with extreme prejudice), humans were basically living in the stone age.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

But are they really the same people as they would be if they had remained dragons and not gone mad? If you become a dog, and had to live like a dog, don't you think that would change who you are on some level.

The situation would obviously force them to change themselves, so obviously not the same. But even if they changed, they are still them. Tiki is still Tiki, Naga is Naga, Gotoh is Gotoh, etc. They changed form and changed their lifestyle, but deep down, they are still the core person they were. 

Of course, it's like a radical change like "The Devil is a Part Timer" where Maou ended up going from a mostly tyrannical overlord that would slaughter humans to someone that learned to appreciate humans. He even admitted he never understood humans back then. So same in this case for dragons to live like humans. 

What matters is whether you have the ability to adapt and not lose yourself. Medeus couldn't (since he was isolated and alone and had to watch the prejudice), and thus he became tyrannical.

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

This would have been before the racism. Humans couldn't do shit to dragons during the dragon golden age. Aside from Khaden (which the dragons destroyed with extreme prejudice), humans were basically living in the stone age.

Thabes, you mean. Khadein was established by Gotoh roughly over 50 years before Mystery.

[DragonFlames]

To me, it doesn't matter what I am on the surface. So long as the inside remains me, the outside is about as important as a freezer in the Arctic.

Not gonna lie though, between being a human and being a dragon, I'd pick dragon any day of the week.
 

[Etrurian emperor]

I'd turn into a Manakute in a heartbeat. I quite like being sane. 

The drawbacks don't seem to be terribly huge either. You just need to ensure you don't lose your stone and even if you do then you might still have some other powers you can use. 

[Tetragrammaton]

It's already difficult for us modern human to give up modern conveniences to save our environment for our future generations.

You can't simply blame the dragons if you yourself don't want to give up the internet or smart phones.