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Emperor Hardin

What could be the "canto" for Armor classes?

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We all know canto, the skill innately possessed by(or exclusive to in the case of TearRing Saga) by all mounted units, but has anyone ever thought about what kind of skills armored classes should have as their base and exclusive skill? Let's face it, armored units need help alot of the time with armored status providing nothing but loss of movement, an extra weakness and often terrain disadvantages. Given how Armored Knights and Cavaliers are frequently shown as counterparts to eachother, it only makes for Knights and Generals to have a powerful base skill of their own, but what? The closest we've had to this is Generals, Barons and Emperor, but not the armored knights, having pavise in Genealogy of the Holy War. But that was exclusive to that game, came in too late for the playable units and might be too powerful for generic enemies to have.

I'm thinking something like Vestaria Saga's adjacent guard skill or some sort of skill that provides armored units extra defense when they are attacked on enemy phase. I don't think either of those would be too powerful for enemy units. Any opinions on this subject?

EDIT: Adjacent Guard is a skill in Vestaria Saga. It gives +3 defense and resistance to adjacent units and upgrades to +5 defense and resistance upon promotion.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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Either difficult/impassable terrain around them or some super enemy phase counter(either quick riposte, double damage on counters). 

Adjacent guard would only work if the damage spikes are so crazy that it's mandatory, and this would be unfun for other reasons.

Edited by Flere210

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One kind of skill I think may work would be a skill that would give substantial defense/resistance buff to them and any nearby units if they are adjacent or within a certain amount of tiles of other allies' positions.  Admittedly I just came up with that idea because you said "adjacent guard" and that sounded like the kind of skill I described.  However, I think if you make their presence worth their slowness for the whole army (or at least for sizable squads), then you'll at least somewhat make up for what they are lacking in; make it worth actually using them and having the army move at perhaps a slower pace.

This, of course, would be under the assumption that the game itself is designed around players possibly using such tactics, and would also have limits so that you can't just make an invincible fortress of armor knights.

It would also make them formidable enemies that you may want to weigh your options with, as opposed to pathetic turrets that can be one-shotted by mages and outpaced by everyone except other armor knights.

It's also kind of in the vein of leadership stars from the Jugdral games.

Though I also think the Rescue mechanic from the GBA games/Thracia should return (and armor knight con/build values are nerfed a bit so that they can actually be carried), because the biggest reason people will continue to gloss over them is because they simply can't keep pace with the army, and rescue would ensure they can be brought up to the front lines when they're needed.  Not pair-up because it's too stupidly powerful.

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1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The closest we've had to this is Generals, Barons and Emperor, but not the armored knights, having pavise in Genealogy of the Holy War.

I took a similar approach with my game where there's a Class Skill for all Armored units called Guard.  It has a fixed (I believe 15%) chance of halving damage from any attack when it triggers.  This is in contrast with Shell (Pavise), which has a Skl% chance of halving damage from Swords, Lances, Axes, and Bows, and Barrier (Aegis), which has a Skl% chance of halving damage from Daggers, Light, Anima, and Dark.

Granted, I also gave Armored units the same Mov as Infantry, kind of making them Infantry on steroids.  But unlike Infantry, they can't cross mountains and rivers, meaning they still have the worst mobility of all the movement types.

Naturally they're also vulnerable to anti-Armor weapons.  But Guard gives them a chance to survive even a nasty hit from one of those or a tome if they're lucky.

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i kinda feel the feh obstruct skill should be an armoured knight base skill. their job is to defend against and 'obstruct' opponents so giving them a skill that makes it harder for enemies to physically move past them would make them more effective in that sense and it would also make a horde of armour knights something a bit trickier to just waltz past.

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Please no one say Wary Fighter I think it's bad game design.

There are many options. The first is that adjacent allies gain more defense but that makes them utily based and not actually very good themselves. Another is to give them some sort of buff to them on enemy phase but that just feels like a regular skill. The thing with Canto with cavaliers is that it's a mechanic so we would have to make up a mechanic for armor knights then. I think something simple as stated above that they "obstruct" the player could be that tiles around them get +1 to movement cost wether it be a plain or a forest or something but that feels too gimmicky. Having an innate attack-shove would be pretty cool and could also ironically give them some help in LTC but that again feels too gimmicky.

I'm not personally sure myself.

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Good map design where holding the rear is important.

Honestly that joking answer probably is the best one.

16 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Please no one say Wary Fighter I think it's bad game design.

Agreed.
I was talking to a friend about character creation for a roleplaying campaign I'm working on and he summed it up quite succinctly. It makes speed a dump stat. "Fixing" an issue is distinct from ignoring it.
Obstruct might be one of the better ideas for an armored unit, I haven't seen it in practice but it sounds good enough to be a feature in the aforementioned campaign.

Provoke is another one, actually. I was just playing the Terror of the Forest hack, where armored units all have provoke in addition to really stupid good stats, which overall made them quite useful.

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3 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Adjacent guard would only work if the damage spikes are so crazy that it's mandatory, and this would be unfun for other reasons.

Vestaria Saga used the adjacent guard technique and it was very well received.

3 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

One kind of skill I think may work would be a skill that would give substantial defense/resistance buff to them and any nearby units if they are adjacent or within a certain amount of tiles of other allies' positions.  Admittedly I just came up with that idea because you said "adjacent guard" and that sounded like the kind of skill I described.  However, I think if you make their presence worth their slowness for the whole army (or at least for sizable squads), then you'll at least somewhat make up for what they are lacking in; make it worth actually using them and having the army move at perhaps a slower pace.

Yup that was exactly it. A playable Armored unit in both versions of Vestaria Saga has the skill allowing adjacent units to get +3 defense and resistance, the stat boost later upgrading to +5.

2 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I took a similar approach with my game where there's a Class Skill for all Armored units called Guard.  It has a fixed (I believe 15%) chance of halving damage from any attack when it triggers.  This is in contrast with Shell (Pavise), which has a Skl% chance of halving damage from Swords, Lances, Axes, and Bows, and Barrier (Aegis), which has a Skl% chance of halving damage from Daggers, Light, Anima, and Dark.

Granted, I also gave Armored units the same Mov as Infantry, kind of making them Infantry on steroids.  But unlike Infantry, they can't cross mountains and rivers, meaning they still have the worst mobility of all the movement types.

Naturally they're also vulnerable to anti-Armor weapons.  But Guard gives them a chance to survive even a nasty hit from one of those or a tome if they're lucky.

That sounds like an ability in Vestaria Saga which existed alongside Pavise. I think it reduced damage upon skill, as opposed to pavise having a 15% of nullifying all damage.

1 hour ago, NobodiePichu said:

i kinda feel the feh obstruct skill should be an armoured knight base skill. their job is to defend against and 'obstruct' opponents so giving them a skill that makes it harder for enemies to physically move past them would make them more effective in that sense and it would also make a horde of armour knights something a bit trickier to just waltz past.

That could work and it would be something that'd make enemy armored knights, tougher, but not too annoying to deal with.

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I actually think the arrow guard skill they gave Barons in Shadow of Valentia was good in theory. In theory only though, in practice it was about as useful as Sure Shot. But that's because of the way Bows worked in that game, not armours. Basically archers range are so good, they'll likely never target the armours, and if they do, the armours don't have any means of counter attacking. If they were able to reduce damage from non adjacent attacks in other games, and if it were expanded to include hand axe, javelins, shurikens etc, then it would increase their tankyness by a lot, as even if enemies mob the armour, they won't really have a chance to kill them provided you block off adjacent squares.

 

Another one to consider would be to give all of them innate Miracle. Killing someone in armour is really, difficult. You basically have to incapacitate them first by knocking them over or something and then stabbing them in the neck when they're down. Give armoured units miracle and you could feel a lot safer about sending them into a mass of foes. Especially if it were guaranteed against physical weapons (magic and armour effective weapons are good to bypass it though).

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i'd like every armored unit to have aymr's effect, maybe limited to 1 or 2 uses per turn

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6 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Please no one say Wary Fighter I think it's bad game design.

Unpopular opinion, doubling is the bad design, not wary fighter. It's incredibly stupid that a 1 point difference in a stat double your DPS, and it became super centralizing in any game it exist. It's not something FE can just remove but it's also not something that should not be allowed to exist uncheked. 

Edith: @Emperor Hardin are there in-depth tier lists of Vestaria?

 

Edited by Flere210

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Pavise becomes a class skill for armored classes that reduces damage by 25% of the base damage. Besides that, lock mobility assists to infantry and let them attack after using them (i.e. Swap or Pivot and then attack).

2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Unpopular opinion, doubling is the bad design, not wary fighter. It's incredibly stupid that a 1 point difference in a stat double your DPS, and it became super centralizing in any game it exist. It's not something FE can just remove but it's also not something that should not be allowed to exist uncheked. 

I wouldn't say doubling is a bad mechanic alone, but when it's stacked in tandem with other offensive tools it becomes overwhelming. (This can be said about other offensive tools too.) I do agree that it overcentralizes Speed, but I can think of a quick fix: Speed is checked for doubling on initiation, and Skill for doubling on a counterattack. Maybe halve follow-up damage on counterattacks too.

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38 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

Speed is checked for doubling on initiation, and Skill for doubling on a counterattack. Maybe halve follow-up damage on counterattacks too.

That's a pretty cool idea. We could then theoretically see two units doubling each other (ie 4 hit engagements or 8 with brave weapons) a lot more often. It also wouldn't ruin too many niches as fast units like swordmasters already excel in skill. Plus it'd make skill way more desired as that's generally seen as a dump stat.

Edited by Jotari

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Fighters would still get screwed and it would only make Skill the god stat instead, because in 90% of the games enemy phase is much more important.Imo three house had a good idea in that it allow for builds that does not require speed at all. They just need to elaborate on that so you can either get a lot of damage in a single attack or a lot of weak attacks. I had in mind a "Style triangle" so to speak:

Shields have wary fighter has an innate skills and they beat Dual wield/ gauntlets because those weapons can't deal enought damage in 2 hits.

Dual wields/gauntlets are the brave weapons and they beat two handed weapons because quadding.

Two handed weapons have High might,weight and a combat art bonus, and beat shields because they can overcome their defense and combat arts does not care about wary fighter. Also they should be set as a counter option.

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54 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's a pretty cool idea. We could then theoretically see two units doubling each other (ie 4 hit engagements or 8 with brave weapons) a lot more often. It also wouldn't ruin too many niches as fast units like swordmasters already excel in skill. Plus it'd make skill way more desired as that's generally seen as a dump stat.

I had an alternative idea to give skill a better secondary use to match speed's doubling: make skill determine, well... how many skills you can equip.

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4 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I had an alternative idea to give skill a better secondary use to match speed's doubling: make skill determine, well... how many skills you can equip.

And whic skills are aviable to be learnt in the first place.

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58 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Fighters would still get screwed and it would only make Skill the god stat instead, because in 90% of the games enemy phase is much more important.

I did say, "Maybe halve follow-up damage on counterattacks too." You could just as easily do that without splitting the follow-up checks.

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If one wants Armored Classes to become "armored juggernauts," I suggested an Unstoppable skill in the past. It is essentially a stronger Galeforce but for Armor Knights. While it doesn't really help them get to their targets, when they get there, they can be a force to be reckoned with.
- Unstoppable: Grants the user another full action after attacking an enemy during the user’s Turn (only once per Turn).

After skimming through this thread, I also came up with a different skill, Unbreakable. It basically adds another flat damage reduction based off of level, helping armored units survive longer without having to rely on RNG procs such as Pavise or Aegis. // As an aside, I made this one for Generals as an alternative to giving them Wary Fighter as a class skill. (Great Knights got Quick Riposte in the FE concept I'm working on.)
- Unbreakable: Unit takes (Level / 2) less damage from all attacks.
-- In case of older titles where levels are reset, they are still internally coded for this skill. So, if you promote at level 10 and are level 6 in the new class, you will be 10/6 (Level 16), meaning 8 Damage Reduction.

Lastly, an idea I had but was deemed a bit "meh," it was called Forced March. By usage of a command, the Armor Knight takes an HP loss, but they regain their full movement. This helps them get to the front lines faster and keep up with the other units, but uses their HP as a resource.
- Forced March: Unit regains all movement points, but suffers -5 to HP (only once per Turn).

Edited by Sire

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7 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Edith: @Emperor Hardin are there in-depth tier lists of Vestaria?

 

Here's one Japanese one. Prody the armored unit with the guard skill is Rank A, for reference there are only two rank S units, three if you count the Gotoh unit. The page on Prody lists his guarding skill, ability to use Javelins(not all who use Lances can use javelins like Cavaliers) and his high growths making him the perfect defensive unit. It notes his poor movement and average stat caps are the only stopping him from S rank.

People I've talked on the game mention there are defend maps that encourage the use of an Armored Knight, though you only need one.

Abraham, the Armored Knight in Vestaria Saga's gaiden, Silverbirch’s Sacred Sword, seems quite absurd looking at him as he has; +1 movement as a skill, adjacent guard II, Pavise(18% to block all damage), Good Growths, great stat caps, great growths and is a prepromote. I haven't seen any tier lists for the game though. 

4 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Fighters would still get screwed and it would only make Skill the god stat instead, because in 90% of the games enemy phase is much more important.Imo three house had a good idea in that it allow for builds that does not require speed at all. They just need to elaborate on that so you can either get a lot of damage in a single attack or a lot of weak attacks. I had in mind a "Style triangle" so to speak:

Shields have wary fighter has an innate skills and they beat Dual wield/ gauntlets because those weapons can't deal enought damage in 2 hits.

Dual wields/gauntlets are the brave weapons and they beat two handed weapons because quadding.

Two handed weapons have High might,weight and a combat art bonus, and beat shields because they can overcome their defense and combat arts does not care about wary fighter. Also they should be set as a counter option.

You know given Generals are well, Generals, its too bad armored units got no ability in relation to battalions. Like something like ignoring battalion effects, especially in regards to stat drops, and having high authority might've helped?

It makes sense too, think of how many authority figures in Fire Emblem are in the Armored Class line?

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10 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Unpopular opinion, doubling is the bad design, not wary fighter. It's incredibly stupid that a 1 point difference in a stat double your DPS, and it became super centralizing in any game it exist. It's not something FE can just remove but it's also not something that should not be allowed to exist uncheked. 

Unless you're talking FE1-3, 4 in certain circumstances, and 12-13 and 15 then Fire Emblem has always required more than one point to double an enemy. Plus the game would pace way slower if doubling was removed and I sure as hell wouldn't sacrifice doubling to save a class with a plethora of other issues that I would never use anyways. The bad design is that simply in a tactical rpg game like FE, tanks are just always low-tier if you reduce their movement since that's what you need to reach enemies at all. Unless the game is radically changed armored units with less move will never work.

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1 hour ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Unless you're talking FE1-3, 4 in certain circumstances, and 12-13 and 15 then Fire Emblem has always required more than one point to double an enemy. Plus the game would pace way slower if doubling was removed and I sure as hell wouldn't sacrifice doubling to save a class with a plethora of other issues that I would never use anyways. The bad design is that simply in a tactical rpg game like FE, tanks are just always low-tier if you reduce their movement since that's what you need to reach enemies at all. Unless the game is radically changed armored units with less move will never work.

I was not reffering to a 1 point difference, i am saying that is stupid that a character whit 23 speed deal 20 damage and a character whit 24 speed deal 40 damage simply because 24 is the benchmark for that enemy. 

Also, you don't need that double attack mechanics to pace batle faster, you just need to have the same amount of damage in a different way. Lots of srpg have no doubling but tons of ways to kill an enemy, or multiple enemies, whit a single move.

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