What could be the "canto" for Armor classes?

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Sire said:

If one wants Armored Classes to become "armored juggernauts," I suggested an Unstoppable skill in the past. It is essentially a stronger Galeforce but for Armor Knights. While it doesn't really help them get to their targets, when they get there, they can be a force to be reckoned with.
- Unstoppable: Grants the user another full action after attacking an enemy during the user’s Turn (only once per Turn).

After skimming through this thread, I also came up with a different skill, Unbreakable. It basically adds another flat damage reduction based off of level, helping armored units survive longer without having to rely on RNG procs such as Pavise or Aegis. // As an aside, I made this one for Generals as an alternative to giving them Wary Fighter as a class skill. (Great Knights got Quick Riposte in the FE concept I'm working on.)
- Unbreakable: Unit takes (Level / 2) less damage from all attacks.
-- In case of older titles where levels are reset, they are still internally coded for this skill. So, if you promote at level 10 and are level 6 in the new class, you will be 10/6 (Level 16), meaning 8 Damage Reduction.

Lastly, an idea I had but was deemed a bit "meh," it was called Forced March. By usage of a command, the Armor Knight takes an HP loss, but they regain their full movement. This helps them get to the front lines faster and keep up with the other units, but uses their HP as a resource.
- Forced March: Unit regains all movement points, but suffers -5 to HP (only once per Turn).

Turning level into defense would be interesting. It'd be guaranteed growth for them ensuring they can tank even if they're rng screwed. Though at lv40, it'd be reducing damage by twenty on top of defense which seems like it might be excessive.

[Flere210]

47 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

@Flere210

Have you seen the tier list link for Vestaria Saga?

Not yet and i havent played it so i don't think i can fully understand it. I asked to know if knights are actually used in efficient play, were i assume people would try their hardest to move as fast as they can.

Also i had a similar idea for damage reduction.

For an unrelated reason i was thinking about how armor penetration would work in FE and had an idea:Class Armor Rating.

Any class would have a damage reduction depending on how heavily armored they are, with knights and general getting the best by far, and weapons like hammers and rapiers instead of having armor effectiveness, ignore x point of armor, maybe up to their might.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Flere210

[Sire]

52 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Turning level into defense would be interesting. It'd be guaranteed growth for them ensuring they can tank even if they're rng screwed. Though at lv40, it'd be reducing damage by twenty on top of defense which seems like it might be excessive.

Perhaps "Level / 3" may be better as it caps out at 13 reduction. It is high enough to make a difference, but hopefully not be overpowered. The main thing to keep in mind is level progression and players may not be able to reach 20/20 or Level 40 without grinding, depending on the title.

Lvl 12 = 4 Reduction
Lvl 21 = 7 Reduction
Lvl 30 = 10 Reduction
Lvl 39 = 13 Reduction

[Emperor Hardin]

2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Not yet and i havent played it so i don't think i can fully understand it. I asked to know if knights are actually used in efficient play, were i assume people would try their hardest to move as fast as they can.

I haven't played either, but I've read up on gameplay info and talked to people who have.

The Armor Knights are described as good for the following reasons:

* Prody's skill makes him extremely helpful for protecting adjacent units.

* Both are extremely very tanky with Bonacel having very high base defense and Prody will have significantly higher defense then the other characters.

* Early javelin access is great as ranged lances are a sub weapon not all lance users can use. Cavaliers have to become Paladins to get javelins.

* Many maps encourage tanking. 

EDIT: I should mention defend maps cannot be ended earlier like in several FE games, encouraging tanking.

2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Also i had a similar idea for damage reduction.

For an unrelated reason i was thinking about how armor penetration would work in FE and had an idea:Class Armor Rating.

Any class would have a damage reduction depending on how heavily armored they are, with knights and general getting the best by far, and weapons like hammers and rapiers instead of having armor effectiveness, ignore x point of armor, maybe up to their might.

Berwick Saga and Vestaria Saga has something slightly similar.

In Berwick Saga, there are shields including:

* Small Shields used by non fragile units such as the lord and many cavalry units.

* Medium Shields used by the promoted lord, the tankiest mounted classes like Paladin, Duke Knight and Old Knight, as well as Axe guard/its promotion.

* Large Shields exclusively used by armored units and a class that may as well be an armored unit.

Each shield gives higher defense and almost all traditional armor weaponry like the rapier affect shields instead of armored status.

Vestaria Saga has Armored and Heavily Armored categories. Guard and General are Armored, whilst Armored Knight is heavily armored. Heavily Armored units have one additional effective weaponry weakness, but tend to have higher stats. To explain the General thing, Generals wear more streamlined here and Armored Knights are a tier 2 class in Vestaria Saga, promoting from Guard. Generals have one higher movement, but lower defense.

From my experience, anti armor weaponry is rarely a big deal for playable armored units. The only times I remember it being an issue is in New Mystery of the Emblem's harder difficulties and a bit in Thracia 776. It is a big deal when multiplayer exists, but enemy units don't commonly use weaponry like ridersbanes and hammers for it to be something for the player to worry about.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Emperor Hardin

[Sasori]

Armour knights are in a pretty though spot. Their one key trait is usually overkill and their drawbacks are too many.  Their low res and speed make them a bit more fragile then they should and having low move is a pain to work with in bigger maps. Their offences also lag behind thanks to their low speed which doesn't help much either.

The fighter skills in heroes are definitely  not the answer though. I always thought the sheer power of those skills made them too dependent on it and that its a bit much in general. Perhaps giving them stance skills could help with their battle performance though. If they only hit once then perhaps really making those hits count would be a good way to increase their middling combat.

Their low move is a lot more tricky to work around though. I don't think you really can change much about it without changing the very core of the armour classes. My best solution would be to just give allies more reason to be around them. Give generals more leadership skills or maybe draw inspiration from the final fantasy paladin class and have them cover for allies.

[Emperor Hardin]

3 hours ago, Sasori said:

Their low move is a lot more tricky to work around though. I don't think you really can change much about it without changing the very core of the armour classes. My best solution would be to just give allies more reason to be around them. Give generals more leadership skills or maybe draw inspiration from the final fantasy paladin class and have them cover for allies.

I was thinking Armored units could use a battalion related skill if the mechanic reoccurs such as halving damage and nullify effects from batallions.

I've also been thinking of skills that give defense to their allies and obstruct foes by giving them an aura making it so enemy units can't pass squares directly adjacent to them.

[Parrhesia]

Great stats, no/few armour-slaying weapons and innate Wary Fighter.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Parrhesia

[Arachnofiend]

A zone of control that enemy units can't move through without attacking the Armor Knight would be pretty interesting, I think. Now they're great for dealing with Pass Assassins and other things that make it difficult for your squishier units to maneuver. 

[dragonlordsd]

Alright, here's a suggestion that I think people are going to object to, but here me out.

What if armored units had a permanent pavise up? In other words, all incoming phys damage is halved. Cap the movement at 4, or even 3, but make them super tanky. With good design, I think it'd work.

The reason I'm saying this is that I think we should separate them out mechanically from the cavalry. In other words, some function that makes it so that a cavalry can't function identically as an armor, in the same way an armor can't function identically as a cavalry.