List of things Kruggov would change in FE3H classes

[Kruggov]

Pretty much what it says on the tin.

All skills - don't stack with themself - to avoid things like Double Fiendish Blow.

Quick Riposte - does not prevent enemy double attack - It's not Wary Fighter, don't make it pretend to be one.

In general - -faire skills replaced from class skills - I guess -faire skills were proven unpopular. I wonder if I can replace them with skills that still encourage use of specific weapon type without making other options straight up worse. You can still get -faire skills from getting S+ in a weapon rank.

Flyers - Canto removed - Canto on Horses is OK, since they have to deal with terrain and -10% Speed growth. On fliers it's overkill.

Mage/Dark Mage/Priest - Movement to 5 - Mage nerf makes no sense to me. They were so-so in Fates and only somewhat good in SoV.

Advanced infantry clasees - Movement to 6 - How come Assassin, Grappler or Dismounted Paladin have 6 movement, while other classes have 5? And yes, this includes Warlock/Bishop/Dark Bishop.

Commoner - +5% HP growth - so it's not straight up worse than Noble.

Monk - Mastering also teaches Resistance +2 (Makes no sense to me why Lord has it, Monk makes a bit more sense)

Lord - Mastering teaches General instead of Resistance +2 (IMO it would not be too powerful, but would really help when enemy starts spamming gambits)

Dark Mage/Dark Bishop/Hero - Not gender-locked - No comment, those classes being gender-locked made no sense.

Hero - +5 Def% growth, remove Luck mod, up Def mod by 1 - Let's make Hero better by making it tankier, as it should be compared to Swordmaster

Hero - Swordfaire replaced with Axebreaker - Makes sense to me, since they learned it in both Awakening and Fates.

Swordmaster - Swordfaire replaced with Sword Avoid +20 - Swordmasters are usually dodge tanks, and with this they can dodge easier... though it might be overkill.

Assassin - Swordfaire replaced with Sword Crit +10 - Gets them somewhere closer to Swordmaster in crittiness.

Fortress Knight - Movement to 5 - 4 is just bad. Don't take the lessons from SoV.

Fortress Knight - Axefaire replaced with Aegis - I know that this will make enemy Fortress Knights more annying, but it will also help playable ones with magic.

Paladin - Movement from 6 (+2 mounted) to 5 (+3 mounted) -  6 move on dismounted Paladins when Swordmaster has 5 makes me irk. Not to mention in other games with dismounting, dismounted horses had less move than infantry (Thracia had 6 for unpromoted infantry and 5 for dismounted unpromoted cavalry except for Free Knights IIRC)

Paladin - Lancefaire replaced with Swordbreaker - -faire replacement, couldn't think of much else.

Enemy Pegasus Knight - Lancefaire removed - Let's make enemy class cheating less explicit.

Wyvern Rider - Axefaire replaced with Lancebreaker - -faire replacement, couldn't think of much else.

Warrior - Axefaire replaced with Axe Avoid +20 - this is gonna be a trainwreck, but yeah. Dodgy warriors.

Sniper - Bowfaire replaced with Bow Crit +10 - Snipers usually had greater crit chance is previous games.

Grappler - Fistfaire replaced with Brawl Crit +10 - to round out Swordmaster/Warrior and newly added sniper, bonus crit for weapon of choice.

Warlock - Black Tomefaire replaced with Dark Magic Uses x2 - To make the class actually usable for Hubert and Lysithea.

Dark Bishop - Miasma replaced with Fistbreaker - Honestly Miasma needs to go, but i have no idea what to replace it with. This is an experiment.

Falcon Knight - Lancefaire replaced with Lance Crit +10 - Did we have a class with this skill? I don't think so.

Wyvern Lord - -5% Speed growth, -2 speed mod, +5% Def growth, +1 Def mod and +1 Dex mod - Wyverns were never this fast, honestly. Buffed their Dex and Def to compensate for the speed loss.

Wyvern Lord - Avoid +10 replaced with Keen Intuition - Makes them more dodgy vs ranged attacks, but less dodgy in melee.

Wyvern Lord - Axefaire replaced with Axe Crit +10 - Questionable, but idk.

Mortal Savant - +15% Speed growth, +3 Speed mod - Wtf is this shit. -10% speed is supposed to be reserved for armors or (in this game) horses, not sword infantry.

Mortal Savant - Swordfaire and Black Tomefaire replaced with Sword Crit +10 and Black Magic Crit +10 - -faire replacements.

Great Knight - Lancefaire and Axefaire replaced with Death Blow and Armored Blow - -faire replacements, also gived GKs powerful player phase

Bow Knight - Bowfaire replaced with Bow Avoid +20 - makes Sniper stand out a bit more with extra crit compared to Bow Knight's extra avoid.

Dark Knight - Black Tomefaire and Dark Tomefaire replaced with Black Magic Uses x2 and Dark Magic Uses x2 - -faire replacements, and so that you could keep those when going from Warlock.

Holy Knight - Terrain Resistance replaced with White Magic Uses x2 - Honestly, Holy Knight and offensive white magic need help, which is why they keep White Tomefaire. And getting White Magic Uses x2 so that it's actually a progression from Bishop, not a regression.

War Master - Axefaire and Fistfaire replaced with Axe Avoid +20 and Brawl Avoid +20 - Enter the new dodge tank of master tier.

Thoughts?

Edited September 25, 2019 by Kruggov
Apparently clickbait title

[NobodiePichu]

a few of these feel a bit persnickity and geared more towards optimization then providing a better experience for the average player. that said, the changes i feel would most benefit the game for the average joe:

unlock gender locked classes, this system is suppose to provide flexibility and freedom and yet has those arbitrary restrictions that hurt more then help (lysithia greatly benifits from dark mage early game for instance, hilda benifits from war master to an extent, the dudes benefit from access to flyer earlier etc.)

moving some classes around. for instance, moving dark knight to advanced and rebalancing it accordingly would greatly benifit lorenz whos geared towards it but cant access it until level 30.

[Ivan Tridelan]

1) Remove gender-locked classes.

2) Mage move -> 5

3) Class balance issues, such as:

3a) Wyvern Lord Speed and Resistance penalties and drops Avoid +10, historically WL has been a flying tank with low Speed and Res and it's stupidly OP in this game

3b) Mortal Savant a Speed bonus and giving Warding Blow to an Intermediate class (like all the other Blow skills) and giving MS something useful, also drop/lower the Reason requirement and add an extra weapon proficiency, probably Bow or Fist, making an easier transition for the canon sword users who have little to no reason to have Reason other than the only Sword-focused Master class saying so

3c) Holy Knight trades Terrain Resistance for Healing +10/White Magic Usesx2 making it a Bishop that trades one of those two skills for more mobility

3d) Give Emperor the ability to use Magic, giving Edelgard a reason not to go WL instead

4) Give player ability to choose Byleth's 4th strength (Brawling feels really dumb to have as a 4th strength, the other 3 all make sense canonically) and give him a spell list actually worth a damn (especially his budding talent of Faith)

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Is there any reason you're gung-ho on purging the Faire skills? I'm a fan of them, as they're deterministic (always doing 5 more damage, versus a slightly higher chance to crit), they gave a motive to keep building weapon ranks beyond A, and they made lategame enemies more threatening. They're boring, I suppose, but they're strong.

Otherwise, agreed on gender-unlocking Hero and Dark Mage/Bishop. I'd extend it to all classes, honestly (let me put Hubert on a Pegasus Knight, cowards!). Also wholeheartedly agree on cutting Wyvern's speed - they're supposed to be like flying tanks, the speed bonus just makes them broken as all hell.

[Flere210]

Giving extra avoid and crits like candies onky nake the game way more rng based.

[Kruggov]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Is there any reason you're gung-ho on purging the Faire skills? I'm a fan of them, as they're deterministic (always doing 5 more damage, versus a slightly higher chance to crit), they gave a motive to keep building weapon ranks beyond A, and they made lategame enemies more threatening. They're boring, I suppose, but they're strong.

Otherwise, agreed on gender-unlocking Hero and Dark Mage/Bishop. I'd extend it to all classes, honestly (let me put Hubert on a Pegasus Knight, cowards!). Also wholeheartedly agree on cutting Wyvern's speed - they're supposed to be like flying tanks, the speed bonus just makes them broken as all hell.

I suggested removing Faires from class skills, not from getting S+ in a weapon rank. I should've been more accurate.

[eclipse]

I'd start by changing the title to something that isn't so clickbait-y.

For actual changes, flying classes get Pass instead of Canto, and Bernadetta gets a skill that gives her a bit of evasion for her budding talent.

[Shadow Mir]

More offensive white magic spells. Then maybe White Tomefaire and Holy Knight might be worth something.

5 hours ago, Kruggov said:

All skills - don't stack with themself - to avoid things like Double Fiendish Blow.

Fiendish Blow doesn't stack with itself. While the faires can, odds are you aren't getting them before the game is over.

 

5 hours ago, Kruggov said:

In general - -faire skills replaced from class skills - I guess -faire skills were proven unpopular. I wonder if I can replace them with skills that still encourage use of specific weapon type without making other options straight up worse. You can still get -faire skills from getting S+ in a weapon rank.

I fail to see why you're so eager on purging the -faire skills - it's not like getting S+ in a weapon rank is practical. Or going to happen outside of New Game+.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Kruggov]

35 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'd start by changing the title to something that isn't so clickbait-y. 

For actual changes, flying classes get Pass instead of Canto, and Bernadetta gets a skill that gives her a bit of evasion for her budding talent.

Clickbait-y? Uh... I seem to fail to see the clickbait. But whatever, i'll change it if you want.

Pass for fliers actually seems reasonable, since they can just fly over someone. Bernadetta can get Avoid +10 or Keen Intuition (or even Stealth, since she did have it as a normal skill in chapter 7)

21 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

More offensive white magic spells. Then maybe White Tomefaire and Holy Knight might be worth something.

Fiendish Blow doesn't stack with itself. While the faires can, odds are you aren't getting them before the game is over.

For magic, I'm working with what we have. And what we have is not enough.

Thanks for info on Fiendish Blow (and other Blows by extension).

21 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I fail to see why you're so eager on purging the -faire skills - it's not like getting S+ in a weapon rank is practical.

I think -faires as class skills undermine the "everyone can use everything". What reason do you have to ever use, say, axes as Swordmaster if swords are strictly better (1-2 range axes nonwithstanding). Tbh, the +crit and +avoid skills do so too, but not to as much an extent.

Actually mono-weapon advanced classes (Swordmaster, Sniper, Warrior and Grappler) can keep their faires, since that's the only weapon they focus on. Other classes aside from Holy Knight? I don't see a reason.

[PPPPPPP270]

My reasoning on why faire skills shouldn't be abundant is that is discourages using other weapon types. What's the pointing of training lances on a wyvern lord if you are never going to use lances in that class? The fact you get axefaire makes axes the premier weapon to use on wyvern lords. Same thing with swords on falcon knight, lances on the mounted mage classes. When would you ever use those weapon types over the class faire ability? 

If there was another game with a class system similar to this. I would welcome back a weapon triangle and make faire skills acquired by different means like high weapon rank or exclusive to certain classes. Though I do believe there should've been more classes in general. Maybe advanced tier mounted mage classes like mage knight and troubadour. Higher tier foot soldier classes for lance users that really hate losing speed from cavalier.

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Kruggov said:

I suggested removing Faires from class skills, not from getting S+ in a weapon rank. I should've been more accurate.

Thanks for the clarification. I still think class-based Faires are a good thing, and your recent comment 

3 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

Actually mono-weapon advanced classes (Swordmaster, Sniper, Warrior and Grappler) can keep their faires, since that's the only weapon they focus on. Other classes aside from Holy Knight? I don't see a reason.

Actually seems like a fair compromise. Keep Faires around, just not on every class. Assassin losing Swordfaire, for instance, would give one reason to pick Swordmaster (which is otherwise outclassed) over it.

[Flere210]

59 minutes ago, PPPPPPP270 said:

My reasoning on why faire skills shouldn't be abundant is that is discourages using other weapon types. What's the pointing of training lances on a wyvern lord if you are never going to use lances in that class? The fact you get axefaire makes axes the premier weapon to use on wyvern lords. Same thing with swords on falcon knight, lances on the mounted mage classes. When would you ever use those weapon types over the class faire ability? 

Because certain weapons lack certain niches? For example i am quite sure there is not a single anti cavalry axe, or anti armor lance. Sword and gauntlets users need to search elsewhere a 2 range option. And brave weapons are limited enought that gauntlets can be nice to have.

Whitout Faire you have the opposite problems and there is no real reason to stick to a certain weapon, wich means 2 things:

1) many classes would become the same. Like, why be an infranty class other than sniper when you can use your sword as well as a swordmaster but you get the option of 3 range chip? Stats mods are hardly enought. 

2)people will eventually find out that a weapon type is the undisputable best and slap it on every single unit. In the context of 3H, that's bow most probably.

 

[Kruggov]

19 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Because certain weapons lack certain niches? For example i am quite sure there is not a single anti cavalry axe, or anti armor lance. Sword and gauntlets users need to search elsewhere a 2 range option. And brave weapons are limited enought that gauntlets can be nice to have.

Whitout Faire you have the opposite problems and there is no real reason to stick to a certain weapon, wich means 2 things:

1) many classes would become the same. Like, why be an infranty class other than sniper when you can use your sword as well as a swordmaster but you get the option of 3 range chip? Stats mods are hardly enought. 

2)people will eventually find out that a weapon type is the undisputable best and slap it on every single unit. In the context of 3H, that's bow most probably.

 

The thing is - that's already a problem. After all, Wyvern Lord reigns supreme.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Kruggov said:

For magic, I'm working with what we have. And what we have is not enough.

I'm more concerned about white magic because White Tomefaire is a dud skill on account of the spells it boosts mostly being bad (I'm not excited about having Nosferatu boosted when it's got only 1 might).

1 hour ago, PPPPPPP270 said:

My reasoning on why faire skills shouldn't be abundant is that is discourages using other weapon types. What's the pointing of training lances on a wyvern lord if you are never going to use lances in that class? The fact you get axefaire makes axes the premier weapon to use on wyvern lords. Same thing with swords on falcon knight, lances on the mounted mage classes. When would you ever use those weapon types over the class faire ability? 

If there was another game with a class system similar to this. I would welcome back a weapon triangle and make faire skills acquired by different means like high weapon rank or exclusive to certain classes. Though I do believe there should've been more classes in general. Maybe advanced tier mounted mage classes like mage knight and troubadour. Higher tier foot soldier classes for lance users that really hate losing speed from cavalier.

 

Like was stated earlier, certain weapons lack certain niches. Gauntlet users need something else for range because gauntlets are range locked, for example.

[Flere210]

15 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

The thing is - that's already a problem. After all, Wyvern Lord reigns supreme.

Exactly. Some limitation have to exist, otherwise you only have the illusion of choice and there only every character has the same optimal path. Obviously having balanced classes would be the best, but it's 15 games in a row where flyers are strong as fuck, i doubt intsys can balance them if their life depends on it.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Flere210

[LegendOfLoog]

Master

Holy Knight - I think Holy Knight is in a bad place mostly because of how terrible most of the White Magic is in this game. Also, Terrain Resistance is a generally bad skill that shouldn’t be on any class, especially Master classes. Defiant Res is also terrible. This is also the only source of White Tomefaire for classes, so that should be kept. If I can’t change anything about the Faith spells already here, I think I’d give Holy Knight White Magic Range +1 instead of Terrain Resistance. That way, Holy Knight delivers on the more offensive Faith user that isn’t really anywhere else in the game. Can’t think of much that could replace Defiant Res, but maybe White Magic Crit +10? It’s in the game, but I haven’t seen any way to attain it otherwise.

Great Knight - I say ditch the Lance thing altogether. Great Knight should just be a progression from the Armor line, and they don’t need Lancefaire. I guess I’d keep Axefaire. Canto stays. And instead of Lancefaire, let them keep Weight -5. I assume they stack, so it would actually help quite a bit to have -10 Weight in total. Mastery skill is Wary Fighter to complete the tank ideal.

Mortal Savant - Hybrid classes usually are bad, and this one is even missing a skill in comparison. First off, it should have the same Speed Growth as Swordmaster and Modifer (+30% and +3 respectively) so that sword users aren’t punished for going to a Master class. From what I can see, the class is meant to be sword favored. I think they should keep Swordfaire and Black Tomefaire, but I’d add Crit +20 like War Master has. For the mastery skill, I think throw in Sword Avoid +20. I think Mortal Savants should essentially be Swordmasters who picked up a book, so they should be primarily focused on their sword performance. Might be a little too strong, but infantry units need everything they can get. 

I think the rest of the Master classes are mostly fine, but I would nerf Wyvern Lord’s Speed modifier and Base. They shouldn’t be competing with Falcon Knight in terms of Speed. This is just working with what we have, but I would also probably add a Halberdier type class into the Advanced tier since that’s the main piece that’s missing. Also, I’d get rid of the C Lance requirements in Master for Bow, Holy, and Dark Knights along with Wyvern Lord’s. Same with Falcon Knight’s Sword requirement. Having these completely unrelated requirements weakens a unit’s ability to diversify their weapon choice. 

[Troykv]

I would like if the skills that gives magic spell as part of a class, instead of being just one spell, it was a collection of spells depending the class.

It's sad that White Offensive Magic is only really used for like two people.

[Arachnofiend]

Move Falcon Knight and Wyvern Lord down to the Advanced tier and Wyvern Rider to Intermediate, adjusting bases and growths accordingly. Just being a flier is justification enough to stop in that class and never promote further, they should not have better stats than foot units. Like there's a reason who they gave Bow Knights god awful growths

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

16 hours ago, Arachnofiend said:

Move Falcon Knight and Wyvern Lord down to the Advanced tier and Wyvern Rider to Intermediate, adjusting bases and growths accordingly. Just being a flier is justification enough to stop in that class and never promote further, they should not have better stats than foot units. Like there's a reason who they gave Bow Knights god awful growths

That would just make fliers more busted though, since those three classes would be available 10 levels earlier. My solution is, nerf Wyvern's speed, get rid of the Avo boosting skills on Peg/Falcon, make fliers (and cavalry) un-Stride-able, and rework (dis)mounting so you can only do it after moving, not before.

[Kruggov]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That would just make fliers more busted though, since those three classes would be available 10 levels earlier. My solution is, nerf Wyvern's speed, get rid of the Avo boosting skills on Peg/Falcon, make fliers (and cavalry) un-Stride-able, and rework (dis)mounting so you can only do it after moving, not before.

Agreed on not moving fliers and making them and cavalry unstridable. I already proposed removing Avoid +10 from WLord, it's ok on Falcon since they have no Def mod or growth. You only need to nerf speed growth on WLord (IMO WRider's 0% growth is fine), though you need to nerf speed mod on both, WRider should have -1 (+2), and WLord should have 0 (+2).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

Agreed on not moving fliers and making them and cavalry unstridable. I already proposed removing Avoid +10 from WLord, it's ok on Falcon since they have no Def mod or growth. You only need to nerf speed growth on WLord (IMO WRider's 0% growth is fine), though you need to nerf speed mod on both, WRider should have -1 (+2), and WLord should have 0 (+2).

Weird, I totally forgot Wyvern Lord got Avo+10. They should lose it too. Personally I'm not a fan of Avo boosts on any fliers (aside from equippable Alert Stance), but whatever. 

TBH I would hit their speed modifiers even harder. Something like -3 for Rider and -2 for Lord, so that they're basically only faster than the armored classes. Really capture the "flying fortress" model. Neutral speed growths are alright, although I wouldn't mind them taking similar hits as horseback classes.

[kittykatie]

wish master classes were actually worth the mastering and the growth. mortal savant seems cool in theory but is actually not that great for speed growths and should only be used late game. all the other master classes seem to be horse or flying based and I wish there were more options for those characters who suck at riding or flying. honestly the advanced classes are better but swordmaster and assassin should give u a combat art that u can use outside the class lol.