What's up with Aptitude and other boost-growths skills?

[Hanes]

I just have no comments on this, why does it exist? Why not just add it to the growths directly? It's not like some classes do a "Always set this growth to X for anyone" (where it could be useful) but instead are always modifiers, after all (A-B)+20= (A+20)-B so what gives? Donnel, Mozu and Cyril are already bad and this skill wasting a personal skill slot makes them even worse with their already bad stats. Sure some things make them salvageable (except for donnel) like being a good Sniper or a Wyvern Lord but, specially in FE3H, slots are very limited and why waste one to train a unit when others can do it better than these guys since the start and join earlier, not to mention their stats are a pain to work through and they bring nothing special to the table.

So, is it a bad skill or do you think it's actually balanced to take away a personal skill slot for high growths?

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by This boi uses Nino

[Alastor15243]

4 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

So, is it a bad skill or do you think it's actually balanced to take away a personal skill slot?

 

It's only personal for Cyril, which sucks in his case because his growths are actually shit without it so he basically is just an underleveled unit with no personal skill.

[Hanes]

Just now, Alastor15243 said:

It's only personal for Cyril, which sucks in his case because his growths are actually shit without it so he basically is just an underleveled unit with no personal skill.

Is it? I had no idea, then again I believe only Donnel has it and that Mozu has forager or something similar right? And yeah I hate the "to make up for" way of thinking where they try to balance out a strength only making the unit completely unnoteworthy.

[Alastor15243]

Anyway, to answer your question, having it be an equippable skill both makes it a tradeoff of wasting a skill slot now for future gains, and basically makes it act like holy blood for their children, letting them inherit that part of their growth rates undiluted.

[Hanes]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Anyway, to answer your question, having it be an equippable skill both makes it a tradeoff of wasting a skill slot now for future gains, and basically makes it act like holy blood for their children, letting them inherit that part of their growth rates undiluted.

Alright so that might make them more useful with more skill space but I would rather they had some good personal skill to make up for their baaaad stats. I didn't know you could unequip personal skills though?

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Alright so that might make them more useful with more skill space but I would rather they had some good personal skill to make up for their baaaad stats. I didn't know you could unequip personal skills though?

Like I said, aptitude isn't a personal skill for anyone but Cyril. It's the base class skill of villager, they can swap it out and pass it down as they please.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Alastor15243

[Hanes]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Like I said, aptitude isn't s personal skill for anyone but Cyril. It's the base class skill of villager, they can swap it out and pass it down as they please.

Hmm...noted then.

[BergelomeuSantos]

12 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

I just have no comments on this, why does it exist? Why not just add it to the growths directly? It's not like some classes do a "Always set this growth to X for anyone" (where it could be useful) but instead are always modifiers, after all (A-B)+20= (A+20)-B so what gives? Donnel, Mozu and Cyril are already bad and this skill wasting a personal skill slot makes them even worse with their already bad stats. Sure some things make them salvageable (except for donnel) like being a good Sniper or a Wyvern Lord but, specially in FE3H, slots are very limited and why waste one to train a unit when others can do it better than these guys since the start and join earlier, not to mention their stats are a pain to work through and they bring nothing special to the table.

So, is it a bad skill or do you think it's actually balanced to take away a personal skill slot for high growths?

 

I'm sure someone is going to point it out (if not already) but only Cyril has it as his personal skill. If you take the argument to Cyril, it's totally valid (but I never really cared much about p.skills, so my Bow Knight Cyril still on my team).

Aptitude is actually a skill from the villager class. In other words, if you happen to throw someone on the villager class or gave aptitude to a children unit, it HAS some value.

[Hanes]

1 minute ago, BergelomeuSantos said:

I'm sure someone is going to point it out (if not already) but only Cyril has it as his personal skill. If you take the argument to Cyril, it's totally valid (but I never really cared much about p.skills, so my Bow Knight Cyril still on my team).

Aptitude is actually a skill from the villager class. In other words, if you happen to throw someone on the villager class or gave aptitude to a children unit, it HAS some value.

I see, I don't think I would go through the trouble of using such a low bases unit so much to get them married but I will note what you said.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

On case of Donnel in theory it makes him have one of the best growth raw growth in the game. Like if you give Donnel actually usable base stats, he would be pretty amazing for casual-ish standard. Obviously in optimum Awakening only "unit who have Staff" and "Dark Flier" even makes it on the list of viability. And then theres mutant like Sumia who would be top tier as a Gen 2 if she was actually gen 2.

And most skill is unable to carry out what makes most of these sucks which is base stats like 5 level lower than other stuff.

Donnel would still be pretty garbage even if his starting skill is Galeforce and Lancefaire.

 

Wasting skillslot is also not a thing, at least in Fates and Awakening. 90% of skills are filler, and 70% of Personal skills is pointless fluff or have minimal effect in combat. Let me remind you Dwyer ended up having one of the better Personal entirely because theres 2-3 fight where he gets huge benefit off it whereas a lot of other characters would get nothing of value off their personal

 

Fundamentally speaking, Aptitude is actually...... well in a way its "slightly worse veteran" and its a trait that got amplified by the trend of newer games giving better raw growth.

Donnel natural growth in stats you give a damn about is

85 - 23% better with Aptitude

55 - 36% better with Aptitude

50 - 40% better with Aptitude

45 - 44% better with Aptitude

20 - 100% better with Aptitude

On average Aptitude boosts Donnel's power by 59% but the issue with this is the fact that Donnel's starting power is like 40% of say Stahl

Which is amusing since Stahl is fucking garbage just like 90% of Awakening cast in general so what does that says about Donnel?

Veteran on the other hand essentially boosts your growth by 34% flat out, but Robin's starting point is like 100%. While Aptitude becomes weaker with higher growth, relatively speaking(see: that breakdown. HP get less benefit from Aptitude than Res. And really if i removed Res from that calculation the result is Aptitude is 36%) Veteran become exponentially stronger with higher growth. Theres a lot to say about the advantages Veteran had(being tied to level = get the stats earlier = faster promotion/second seals) but all in all the fact that Aptitude is solid enough that it can be compared to Veteran, the single most broken skill in the game means its pretty darn good

 

Another thing to note is the payoff from raising Donnel just isn't that phenomenal. A 1-2 range Sol thrift is solid but thrift is a convenience factor as a whole, so Sol isn't much different from whatever shit a hyper raised unit can do. Or just use Chrom

I'd like to refer to Mekkah's review when talking about "magikarp unit" in FE since i believe it covers everything to say about what they need. They need to kill things ok enough right off the bat, they should have a growth acceleration, and they have a huge turning point. Donnel really only miss the "kill things ok enough" and his growth acceleration kinda sucked.

Awakening actually did this with pretty much every character who can kill ever thanks to Second Seal, but the 2012 strats Wyvern Panne actually fits this description really well

.....oh right Panne is basically Donnel but not shit in general. She have pretty much the growth of Aptitude Donnel, the second seal gimmick, and a training wheel in her garbage class. Suck to be you

 

I don't remember Fates growth in general, but theres a lot of stuff that broke Mozu growth thereshold in general there(e.g. her growth isn't even impresisve). off the top of my mind, Berserker Leo, Camilla, Keaton, Effie, and Kagero all had comparable growth in important areas

 

Not every magikarp unit have to be done as masterfully as Leif, but newer ones is pretty much carried by the player's false perception of them growing well when in reality everyone else also growths just as well. So the fix is just simply to make them suck less at the start, or at least give them something to work with. In reality a powerful combat unit(which is what IS made them nowadays) isn't much better than normal combat unit you get from raising other stuff.  To this date while several "weak start, strong end" character exists, Leif is the only one that is actually broken and it have nothing to do with his stats.

Its easy to hype up combat ability as the best thing ever, but it really wasn't all that. How many people hype up Leif as a glorified healer instead of "ZOMG ALL WEAPON"?

[Arachnofiend]

Don't forget Sothe, who has a version of Aptitude that penalizes his xp gains.

Ultimately this concept is just the same deal as the Est archetype, except doubled down on and you don't get even get a cute girl for it so what's the point

[Ertrick36]

For Awakening and Fates, you can pass the skill down to children so that they can benefit from the boosted growth rates.  It's effectively like using the Crusader scrolls of Thracia 776 in tandem, and the reason it may sometimes be better than picking optimal parents is because sometimes the growth rate changes are very minimal due to the formula behind calculating children's growth rates (usually applies if the parents themselves have similar growths).

No idea why it's a thing in Three Houses as a personal skill for Cyril.  It just makes him a unit with kinda okay growth rates and no personal skill, and it gives the illusion of him secretly being a better unit than he actually is.

I at least see the virtue in investing in Donnel and Mozu (or at the very least getting them hitched), but Cyril's one of the most unremarkable units in the series.  He's not even god awful in a fun or interesting way like Arran is; he's just simply par in a game filled with plenty of better units.  Why use Cyril as a wyvern lord when you have Petra; why use Cyril as a bow knight when you have Shamir; why use Cyril as a war master when you have Raphael?  Donnel and Mozu can pass down unique skills and the latter can fill a desired niche, but Cyril's got nothing to help him stand out.

4 hours ago, Arachnofiend said:

Ultimately this concept is just the same deal as the Est archetype, except doubled down on and you don't get even get a cute girl for it so what's the point

Hey, Mozu's a cute country bumpkin gal.  I don't care if she told you that you smell like a goat.

I prefer Catria and Palla anyway.

Also, and I'm gonna keep saying this as long as people keep calling them "Ests", but Donnel, Mozu, and Cyril are all different from Est because they join much earlier than her or others of her "archetype", which means it's a lot easier to invest in them and bring them up to speed.

[Stroud]

To defense of Cyril I actually think that he has a solid niche. Thanks to his aptitude his HP growth reaches 55%, with a good class it easily can reach 85-95% and that is all he actually wants. ( A long with Skill and a little defense growth later). 
I would like to compare him more with Bernadetta and Dedue for a slot, maybe less with Dedue. Because I value Vengeance pretty highly in the game, the damage with it is just ridiculous and its not difficult to set up at all. Even can help in Maddening. 

One good thing Cyril has compared to Mozu and Donnel is also the mechanic with adjutant. Which may get rolling later, but he might appreciate it for the beginning. Also he sadly comes a bit late. But maybe not too late to be used efficiently.

The interesting thing about Cyril is that he can be a Wyvern with Vengeance more easily compared to Berni and Dedue. The thing that hurts him is more his availability...I just mention it, because I feel that Vengeance is easily forgotten in 3 houses. Maybe because players just fear the idea to run around with 1HP. 

My only gripe with him is that he is set up a bit later.

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Stroud

[Flere210]

The best way to make an est-like character is Reverse Recruitment Karel, i'll say it.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Ertrick36 said:

For Awakening and Fates, you can pass the skill down to children so that they can benefit from the boosted growth rates.  It's effectively like using the Crusader scrolls of Thracia 776 in tandem, and the reason it may sometimes be better than picking optimal parents is because sometimes the growth rate changes are very minimal due to the formula behind calculating children's growth rates (usually applies if the parents themselves have similar growths).

No idea why it's a thing in Three Houses as a personal skill for Cyril.  It just makes him a unit with kinda okay growth rates and no personal skill, and it gives the illusion of him secretly being a better unit than he actually is.

I at least see the virtue in investing in Donnel and Mozu (or at the very least getting them hitched), but Cyril's one of the most unremarkable units in the series.  He's not even god awful in a fun or interesting way like Arran is; he's just simply par in a game filled with plenty of better units.  Why use Cyril as a wyvern lord when you have Petra; why use Cyril as a bow knight when you have Shamir; why use Cyril as a war master when you have Raphael?  Donnel and Mozu can pass down unique skills and the latter can fill a desired niche, but Cyril's got nothing to help him stand out.

Hey, Mozu's a cute country bumpkin gal.  I don't care if she told you that you smell like a goat.

I prefer Catria and Palla anyway.

Also, and I'm gonna keep saying this as long as people keep calling them "Ests", but Donnel, Mozu, and Cyril are all different from Est because they join much earlier than her or others of her "archetype", which means it's a lot easier to invest in them and bring them up to speed.

Bold: Why in the name of Nemesis did you think to bring up the single worst unit in all of Three Houses??? Because that's what Raphael is (that's right, I consider Cyril much better than he is). At any rate, Raphael has pretty much nothing going for him that would make me consider recruiting him if I didn't choose the Golden Deer, considering that his everything but strength, HP, and defense sucks, whereas other units have great reasons to recruit if I didn't choose their house, like Petra.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Ertrick36]

47 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bold: Why in the name of Nemesis did you think to bring up the single worst unit in all of Three Houses??? Because that's what Raphael is (that's right, I consider Cyril much better than he is). At any rate, Raphael has pretty much nothing going for him that would make me consider recruiting him if I didn't choose the Golden Deer, considering that his everything but strength, HP, and defense sucks, whereas other units have great reasons to recruit if I didn't choose their house, like Petra.

Because strength, HP, and defense are much more useful in Maddening, to the point where his marginal advantages make him a better choice for tanking hits and dishing out damage.

By no means would I deliberately recruit him if I simply wanted useful units, but if I'm playing Golden Deer on Maddening, I see him as a more valuable asset, especially when you consider that Cyril's always gonna join underleveled.

Even if it's just for the beginning of the game (and thus he wouldn't ever actually become a war master), I still at least find use for him on Maddening.  That's more than I can say for Cyril, whom I don't think I'd ever want to invest in.  I'd sooner try to make Flayn into a combat mage than try to use Cyril on Maddening.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Because strength, HP, and defense are much more useful in Maddening, to the point where his marginal advantages make him a better choice for tanking hits and dishing out damage.

By no means would I deliberately recruit him if I simply wanted useful units, but if I'm playing Golden Deer on Maddening, I see him as a more valuable asset, especially when you consider that Cyril's always gonna join underleveled.

Even if it's just for the beginning of the game (and thus he wouldn't ever actually become a war master), I still at least find use for him on Maddening.  That's more than I can say for Cyril, whom I don't think I'd ever want to invest in.  I'd sooner try to make Flayn into a combat mage than try to use Cyril on Maddening.

Really? I find him to compare unfavorably to Hilda on freaking hard mode, where he still struggles to do his goddamn job well because he's slow to the point where he's often doubled. What in the name of Anankos possesses you to think he's going to be better off in Maddening?

[Fabulously Olivier]

In the case of Donnel and Mozu, it being a skill at least allows them to make overpowered children. Cyril, on the other hand, is a joke (and deserves no better 😋). 

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Etheus said:

In the case of Donnel and Mozu, it being a skill at least allows them to make overpowered children. Cyril, on the other hand, is a joke (and deserves no better 😋). 

More like Donnel can PRETEND to make overpowered children when he's not even a good father for most of them., let alone one of the best. In any instance, I find that Cyril is slept on - he's the only unit with a double strike combat art that gets it early (most of the other units that get such a combat art don't get it until A rank - Cyril gets his at C+ rank).

[Alastor15243]

35 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

More like Donnel can PRETEND to make overpowered children when he's not even a good father for most of them., let alone one of the best.

In-game or postgame? In-game the demands of a father are extremely different, particularly on no-grind.

[Shadow Mir]

11 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

In-game or postgame? In-game the demands of a father are extremely different, particularly on no-grind.

I think both. For in-game, I'd be hard pressed to find a situation where I'm not better off fielding someone else instead of Donnel, and postgame wise, Donnel has a bunch of negative modifiers, with his only noteworthy modifier being +3 to luck.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Boomhauer007]

On 9/28/2019 at 10:22 AM, Shadow Mir said:

What in the name of Anankos possesses you to think he's going to be better off in Maddening?

There is absolutely a use for a unit with sky high strength that you can slap gauntlets on. Deleting mages and those pesky vantage snipers is not a useless niche, and rally strength is much more useful early game on maddening than hard where it isn't needed.

He's not a great unit, but he's definitely not the worst

[Kruggov]

On 9/28/2019 at 8:43 AM, Arachnofiend said:

Don't forget Sothe, who has a version of Aptitude that penalizes his xp gains.

It also works differently, allowing him to reroll failed growths, rather than giving a flat increase. And it's not because of Blossom that Sothe sucks, it's because he can't promote and is forced to use the worst weapon type in the game.

 

On 9/28/2019 at 8:22 PM, Shadow Mir said:

What in the name of Anankos possesses you to think he's going to be better off in Maddening?

Because Hilda will get doubled on Maddening due to inflated enemy speed. Might as well use a character that gets doubled anyway, while being strong and having easy access to Rally Strength.

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/3/2019 at 3:17 PM, Boomhauer007 said:

There is absolutely a use for a unit with sky high strength that you can slap gauntlets on. Deleting mages and those pesky vantage snipers is not a useless niche, and rally strength is much more useful early game on maddening than hard where it isn't needed.

He's not a great unit, but he's definitely not the worst

Sorry, but I don't see Raphael deleting much of anything with weapons that only have 4 might at most. And there's the part where gauntlets are range-locked, thus forcing you to eat counters often, which is not good in Maddening.

[Kruggov]

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sorry, but I don't see Raphael deleting much of anything with weapons that only have 4 might at most. And there's the part where gauntlets are range-locked, thus forcing you to eat counters often, which is not good in Maddening.

Did you forget that gauntlets are also brave weapons that really synergize with Raphael's huge strength? And if you don't want to eat a counter, what stops you from having a bow as a backup.

Besides he did note deleting mages and snipers, and one of those will counter you anyway, while other will not counter at 1 range.