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What's up with Aptitude and other boost-growths skills?


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2 hours ago, Kruggov said:

Did you forget that gauntlets are also brave weapons that really synergize with Raphael's huge strength? And if you don't want to eat a counter, what stops you from having a bow as a backup.

Besides he did note deleting mages and snipers, and one of those will counter you anyway, while other will not counter at 1 range.

No. I just am not impressed when you consider the many downsides of gauntlets. Is double attacking really worth putting up with a weapon type that hits like a wet noodle?? I think not.

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6 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

No. I just am not impressed when you consider the many downsides of gauntlets. Is double attacking really worth putting up with a weapon type that hits like a wet noodle?? I think not.

It entirely depends on the question of defense vs. HP, and how important it is to not eat the counter. If in Fates there were some random My Castle item that was a brave lance with 0 Mt, there is no question I would be making extensive use of that thing against ninjas whenever I got it. It would make it way easier to use attack stance tactics to kill a group of ninjas before they can debuff anyone with a counter.

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14 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

It entirely depends on the question of defense vs. HP, and how important it is to not eat the counter. If in Fates there were some random My Castle item that was a brave lance with 0 Mt, there is no question I would be making extensive use of that thing against ninjas whenever I got it. It would make it way easier to use attack stance tactics to kill a group of ninjas before they can debuff anyone with a counter.

I guess, but even looking at mages, you'd need something like 50 attack to 2HKO the mages in Golden Deer endgame on Maddening (some require as high as 60 attack - good luck with that when the strongest gauntlets have all of 4 might, which forging doesn't help with). And you might as well forget about 2HKOing the snipers with gauntlets (they require 70 [!!!] attack to 2HKO).

Edited by Shadow Mir
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10 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I guess, but even looking at mages, you'd need something like 50 attack to 2HKO the mages in Golden Deer endgame on Maddening (some require as high as 60 attack - good luck with that when the strongest gauntlets have all of 4 might, which forging doesn't help with). And you might as well forget about 2HKOing the snipers with gauntlets (they require 70 [!!!] attack to 2HKO).

Wasn't this about maddening early game?

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13 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Wasn't this about maddening early game?

We don't have stats for that, so I didn't have much of a choice but to use the stats we did have to illustrate my point.

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7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

We don't have stats for that, so I didn't have much of a choice but to use the stats we did have to illustrate my point.

But your point was on a completely different subject. The argument wasn't that Raphael is great in endgame, it's that he has a niche and utility in early game when you have limited options, and that that makes him way better than Cyril.

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45 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I guess, but even looking at mages, you'd need something like 50 attack to 2HKO the mages in Golden Deer endgame on Maddening (some require as high as 60 attack - good luck with that when the strongest gauntlets have all of 4 might, which forging doesn't help with). And you might as well forget about 2HKOing the snipers with gauntlets (they require 70 [!!!] attack to 2HKO).

50 attack is pretty simple by going the obvious war master route:

35 is a plausible strenght by 40( i rounded the growth at 60% because it seems the average of a fighter-brigand-grappler-war master). Add 5 for the war master modifier, 6 for death blow, 5 for gauntletfaire, 7 for a good battalion and 4 for the gauntlet and we are at 63. 

Then i will point out that fierce iron fist exist if you want to go that route, but i never used it so i don't know how relevant it is. Still it's 3 attacks on 60 might(-4 strenght modifier +1 the art's might).

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

But your point was on a completely different subject. The argument wasn't that Raphael is great in endgame, it's that he has a niche and utility in early game when you have limited options, and that that makes him way better than Cyril.

True, but I still think he's more trouble to make work than he's worth, to be frank, all because he is so god damn sloooooow - and being that slow is just asking for trouble. If you're going to be that slow, you damn well better have something really good to make up for that. And I dew nut think Raphael has something that makes him worth putting up with. I'd rather use Cyril instead because he's not being doubled by pretty much everything under the sun forever.

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

50 attack is pretty simple by going the obvious war master route:

35 is a plausible strenght by 40( i rounded the growth at 60% because it seems the average of a fighter-brigand-grappler-war master). Add 5 for the war master modifier, 6 for death blow, 5 for gauntletfaire, 7 for a good battalion and 4 for the gauntlet and we are at 63. 

Then i will point out that fierce iron fist exist if you want to go that route, but i never used it so i don't know how relevant it is. Still it's 3 attacks on 60 might(-4 strenght modifier +1 the art's might).

All of which ignores how much trouble it is to get him there because like I said, he's as slow as cold molasses, meaning he gets hit really hard. Twice. And the many downsides of gauntlets (like I said, I'm not fine with a weapon type that's crap on enemy phase, and outclassed on player phase, not to mention only decent early on - why would I want to use gauntlets over a brave weapon???).

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14 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

True, but I still think he's more trouble to make work than he's worth, to be frank, all because he is so god damn sloooooow - and being that slow is just asking for trouble. If you're going to be that slow, you damn well better have something really good to make up for that. And I dew nut think Raphael has something that makes him worth putting up with. I'd rather use Cyril instead because he's not being doubled by pretty much everything under the sun forever.

The point people were trying to make is that when you first get Raphael on Golden Deer, he has something he can do from the get-go, and ways he can make himself useful while you have to use him. Meanwhile by the time you can recruit Cyril, you can recruit literally anyone else too. Cyril is a massive opportunity cost, while on Golden Deer, Raphael has almost no opportunity cost at all. And the second you have better options, poof, he's gone, no fuss.

Edited by Alastor15243
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2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

The point people were trying to make is that when you first get Raphael on Golden Deer, he has something he can do from the get-go, and ways he can make himself useful while you have to use him. Meanwhile by the time you can recruit Cyril, you can recruit literally anyone else too. Cyril is a massive opportunity cost, while on Golden Deer, Raphael has almost no opportunity cost at all. And the second you have better options, poof, he's gone, no fuss.

I dunno about you, but by the time it's feasible to recruit students from other houses, Cyril would already have joined since he only needs you to have passed chapter 5 and be level 10 (unless you're leading the Black Eagles). The sole exception requires you to play as a girl.

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7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno about you, but by the time it's feasible to recruit students from other houses, Cyril would already have joined since he only needs you to have passed chapter 5 and be level 10 (unless you're leading the Black Eagles). The sole exception requires you to play as a girl.

And what reason is there to use him by that point? He's behind on training and levels, and by the time you can get him up to speed, you'll have access to units objectively better than him. Especially since being behind on levels is even more egregious of a flaw the harder the difficulty gets.

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15 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

And what reason is there to use him by that point? He's behind on training and levels, and by the time you can get him up to speed, you'll have access to units objectively better than him. Especially since being behind on levels is even more egregious of a flaw the harder the difficulty gets.

Just like is liable to happen to Raphael? Because I was playing on hard mode, and I wasn't even done with the earlygame before he stopped being able to pull his weight on the battlefield. How do you think he'll do on Maddening if he can't even last on Hard mode??? Because my guess is he'll be even worse off.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Just like is liable to happen to Raphael? Because I was playing on hard mode, and I wasn't even done with the earlygame before he stopped being able to pull his weight on the battlefield. How do you think he'll do on Maddening if he can't even last on Hard mode???

Weren't we discussing early game usefulness? Not to mention he still has Rally Strength, if you have a spare slot you might want to keep him around just for that?

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On 10/6/2019 at 12:48 PM, Kruggov said:

Weren't we discussing early game usefulness? Not to mention he still has Rally Strength, if you have a spare slot you might want to keep him around just for that?

We are, but I still find Raphael not worth using simply because his 6 base speed ruins him, and he's not nearly bulky enough to make up for it.

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6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

We are, but I still find Raphael not worth using simply because his 6 base speed ruins him, and he's not nearly bulky enough to make up for it. 

If we're talking Maddening, then it doesn't matter how high or low your speed is short term - if you're not Byleth, Petra or Felix, you will get doubled by 60% of enemies, and it's debatable on Byleth.

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33 minutes ago, Druplesnubb said:

Can you actually pass down Aptitude in Fates? I remember trying it but my Mozu's kids not actually getting the skill even tohugh the yshould have.

You can, you just have to make sure it is the last equipped skill on Mozu's list, so if she has gotten another skill you would need to move them around to makes sure she passes it on.

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1 hour ago, Druplesnubb said:

I'm pretty sure I did just that.

What might have happened: Mozilla learnt a new skill before her children was recruited. Or you arranged Mozilla’s skills, did not save, restarted during the child’s map and forgot to rearrange the skills.

Aptitude Sophie and specially Aptitude Velouria are monsters.

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On 9/28/2019 at 1:22 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Really? I find him to compare unfavorably to Hilda on freaking hard mode, where he still struggles to do his goddamn job well because he's slow to the point where he's often doubled. What in the name of Anankos possesses you to think he's going to be better off in Maddening?

Two words: Quick Riposte.

Once Raphael gets this, his low speed becomes much less of an issue. Hilda cannot get it because she can't become a War Master.

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3 hours ago, Runty said:

Two words: Quick Riposte.

Once Raphael gets this, his low speed becomes much less of an issue. Hilda cannot get it because she can't become a War Master.

Too bad that it's locked behind a Master tier class. If Raphael needs a Master tier class skill just to not suck, that only highlights how terrible he is in the first place. Needless to say, I ain't willing to put up with him being doubled by everything and doubling almost nothing for that long.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Too bad that it's locked behind a Master tier class. If Raphael needs a Master tier class skill just to not suck, that only highlights how terrible he is in the first place. Needless to say, I ain't willing to put up with him being doubled by everything and doubling almost nothing for that long.

Not to mention that said skill also requires you to actually MASTER said Master tier class, which takes a hell of a long time, even with a Knowledge Gem, i.e. impossible to do if you don't grind the hell out of them; and if you do grind, then everyone can delete everything anyway, thus making any Mastery Skill (post-second tier) or skill builds that have you sliding around between different classes a moot point (unless you're preparing for NG+, perhaps). 
This is the Level 15 skills in Fates thing all over again, come to think of it.

As far as Aptitude goes: It made for easier grinding in Fates, I didn't have to deal with RNG-screwage so much when I tried to make skill builds for the lulz (and for people to have a reason to visit My Castle).
It certainly doesn't salvage Donnel or Cyril from being terrible, though.

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On 10/6/2019 at 4:37 AM, Shadow Mir said:

No. I just am not impressed when you consider the many downsides of gauntlets. Is double attacking really worth putting up with a weapon type that hits like a wet noodle?? I think not.

Abso-freaking-lutely yes.

What about a unit with high Str who hits twice before the enemy can counter isn't valuable? Raphael has some of the highest physical damage before the enemy has a chance to counter in the game. It's immediately obvious how useful that can be for enemy mages, but it also means he's good at taking out enemies who have already been weakened who may still be able to hit pretty hard in return.

And as far as the actual damage output, consider that any kind of Atk boosting is basically going to count for double. Death Blow effectively gives him +12 damage. Strength +2 becomes +4. Stat boosters are +2 or +4. If you do manage to get another Rally Strength on the team, +8. Battalions can give some crazy extra damage. Fistfaire is +10. Hilda with Advocate happens to be on the same starting roster. And then War Master has crit +20 and S Brawling gives Brawl Crit +10 so Raphael can wander around hitting enemies twice with a lot of damage and 30 crit on each attack before the enemy gets a chance to do anything. And then Fierce Iron Fist exists.

Raphael's not even a bad unit, much less the worst in the game. "Many downsides" lol.

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13 hours ago, Florete said:

Abso-freaking-lutely yes.

What about a unit with high Str who hits twice before the enemy can counter isn't valuable? Raphael has some of the highest physical damage before the enemy has a chance to counter in the game. It's immediately obvious how useful that can be for enemy mages, but it also means he's good at taking out enemies who have already been weakened who may still be able to hit pretty hard in return.

And as far as the actual damage output, consider that any kind of Atk boosting is basically going to count for double. Death Blow effectively gives him +12 damage. Strength +2 becomes +4. Stat boosters are +2 or +4. If you do manage to get another Rally Strength on the team, +8. Battalions can give some crazy extra damage. Fistfaire is +10. Hilda with Advocate happens to be on the same starting roster. And then War Master has crit +20 and S Brawling gives Brawl Crit +10 so Raphael can wander around hitting enemies twice with a lot of damage and 30 crit on each attack before the enemy gets a chance to do anything. And then Fierce Iron Fist exists.

Raphael's not even a bad unit, much less the worst in the game. "Many downsides" lol.

High strength alone does not a good unit make. Just look at the GBA fighters, who Raphael reminds me of. They were much the same - high strength and little else. Needless to say, it didn't take them far. So why should I believe that Raphael doesn't suck??? Because as things are, I'm MUCH better off recruiting a superior unit (read: literally anyone else) and using them instead of continuing to invest in an experience black hole. Oh, and this is assuming that I started with the Golden Deer in the first place; otherwise, why should I go out of my way to recruit him??? Besides that, gauntlets' poor enemy phase, range lock, and general lack of flexibility are just too bad for me to ignore.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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