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Is the Church route worth playing?

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1 hour ago, Timlugia said:

From her perspective yes, because she knew who you were from day one, and confirms her speculation when you picked up SotC.

But from player/Byleth's perspective it's only logical in Silver Snow when she told you how you two were related.

I know when I first played Verdant Wind it was like "why do I even need your protection? Didn't you just say I am the progenitor god?"

Does it make less sense though? Rhea before the timeskip turns into the Immaculate One (which is risky since she's been trying to keep that secret) instead of letting Byleth throw themselves at a large army and then roared in despair when it seemed apparent that you fell to your death and she couldn't do anything about it. That on top of the treatment she gives Byleth shows that she values and cares for Byleth to a great extent and will do what she can to protect them. I don't think the revelation in SS is really needed to make sense of it, the character has shown that she was more then capable of trying to protect them at risk to herself.

Plus, she does mention in the VW route that the Progenitor God is her mother as well, so you could take it as her trying to protect the one who she hoped would help her see her lost mother again. 

Edited by Medeus

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On 9/29/2019 at 5:22 AM, LilyRose said:

It depends on which route you end up on. If you play the Church route then BL should be your second/last playthrough because you will have learned exactly what Byleth is and most of the other lore is covered on that route.

If, however, you end up on Edelgard's route you should do Golden Deer. You will get more of the history and an actual satisfying conclusion vs. Blue Lions which is fun but doesn't explain anything

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and leaves the main villains virtually untouched. 

Another option if you aren't interested in Dimitri or Claude is to recruit as many of the BL and GD students as you can then save before the big decision and once you finish the first BE route go back to your save and do the second one. It will save you time and you still get the full story. 

See, it sucks for me cuz I'm interested in Claude, but not Dmitri, so i hate that the other route I'd be most interested in I'd get the least out of, story wise. I'm just going to go with my gut on decisions & see where i end up in regards to the route I take. I have recruited some from each house so far in chapter 7, but I think I'll prioritize those in the future, per your suggestion. I may just end up doing both BE story lines, then depending on how long that takes, I may still do the BL route.

I would plan to play again after a break to play something else, but I've had to start being realistic...that never happens, no matter how legitimate my intentions are. My backlog of games that I've never played is long enough without counting games I planned multiple playthrus of. Thank you for the information & advice. Much appreciated.

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Dimitri’s route, Azure Moon, is uniquely disjointed from the others, as it focuses almost entirely on his fall and redemption and the how the tragedies that catalyzed the war affected him and the other BL students. I think it stands best on its own in isolation compared to the other routes, but it leaves so many small details unanswered that it nags you to play the others. 

 

 

What baffles me now is why Verdant Wind has so much copy paste from Silver Snow when Claude’s background could lead to multiple story threads beyond what we got. Edelgard’s Crimson Flower becoming a DLC route while putting the dev time into Claude’s side could’ve lead to a better game. 

But I guess they had little choice with Edel being the face of the game in most advertising. 

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2 hours ago, Altrosa said:

Dimitri’s route, Azure Moon, is uniquely disjointed from the others, as it focuses almost entirely on his fall and redemption and the how the tragedies that catalyzed the war affected him and the other BL students. I think it stands best on its own in isolation compared to the other routes, but it leaves so many small details unanswered that it nags you to play the others. 

 

 

What baffles me now is why Verdant Wind has so much copy paste from Silver Snow when Claude’s background could lead to multiple story threads beyond what we got. Edelgard’s Crimson Flower becoming a DLC route while putting the dev time into Claude’s side could’ve lead to a better game. 

But I guess they had little choice with Edel being the face of the game in most advertising. 

Or put Silver Snow as DLC route, focusing on relationship between Rhea and Byleth with a playable Rhea.

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9 hours ago, Altrosa said:

Dimitri’s route, Azure Moon, is uniquely disjointed from the others, as it focuses almost entirely on his fall and redemption and the how the tragedies that catalyzed the war affected him and the other BL students. I think it stands best on its own in isolation compared to the other routes, but it leaves so many small details unanswered that it nags you to play the others. 

 

 

What baffles me now is why Verdant Wind has so much copy paste from Silver Snow when Claude’s background could lead to multiple story threads beyond what we got. Edelgard’s Crimson Flower becoming a DLC route while putting the dev time into Claude’s side could’ve lead to a better game. 

But I guess they had little choice with Edel being the face of the game in most advertising. 

I would have cut Silver Snow entirely - if you're not gonna have the balls to make it a route where you support Rhea then it just doesn't have anything of value to say that isn't already said by Verdant Wind. The truth behind Byleth's birth could have been done elsewhere.

Cut Silver Snow and suddenly Verdant Wind can have content that makes sense for Claude and Crimson Flower can have as many chapters as the other routes got.

Edited by Arachnofiend

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6 hours ago, Arachnofiend said:

I would have cut Silver Snow entirely - if you're not gonna have the balls to make it a route where you support Rhea then it just doesn't have anything of value to say that isn't already said by Verdant Wind. The truth behind Byleth's birth could have been done elsewhere.

Even if Silver Snow's reveals could've been handled better in Golden Deer IMO and in my opinion both deserve to have distinct gameplay and plot, the route itself needed to exist. One thing is empathizing with Edelgard's past and ideals and the other is supporting her actions, in particular because her being the Flame Emperor is meant to be a huge twist. It makes sense why it's the default Black Eagles route in that regard (that doesn't mean Crimson Flower deserved to be shafted so badly tho.)

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Personally, I think they ran out of time in development, which is both why CF is shorter AND VW and SS share so much content.

Reasoning is:

1) VW was always meant to exist. It's called "Three Houses" after all. However, it shares so much content with SS they're practically rip-offs of each other. If not for the addition of Nader, Claude's Almyran background would likely have gone unmentioned entirely. We could have seen more Almyra + Fodlan after this, but instead we get SS content reworked.

2) Edelgard's death and Rhea taking the missiles to protect you both make more sense in SS (though admittedly the latter is already precedented by the pre-time skip scene in any non-CF route), which suggests late VW in particular ripped off of SS material.

3) CF is the route where it makes the most sense to deal with TWS considering that route makes it clear they're only loosely allied with the Empire and Edelgard wants them dead and gone. Right after Tailtean Plains would have made perfect sense. Arianrhod just got nuked (which in VW/SS is how Hubert locates Shambala only with Fort Merceus being what gets leveled), the Kingdom army is all but gone (in the final battle the only Kingdom character left is Gilbert), and the Church is reeling from the losses sustained in their failed flank attack, so taking the time to go wrap up TWS before finishing in the epic confrontation with Rhea makes sense. That getting cut out and stuffed into an Epilogue makes sense if they ran out of time.

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While I do agree that CF suffered because deadlines, I also don't mind Slither being on the back burner now that I've had time to digest the game. CF builds Rhea up as this horrible dictator that needs to be taken out, while Slither is treated as a mere nuisance. To go from taking down a literally insane dragon to fighting some mole people would feel anticlimatic. Also, while I can't speak for SS, all of the other routes still have Slither alive and kicking: Claude's ending explicitly states that Fodlan forces continued to fight them, losing until Claude brings in the Almyran army, and AM never directly addresses them at all, in spite of the fact that they caused the Tragedy of Duscur, aka the reason Dimitri went batty. So theoretically all 3 of these routes could benefit from a Slither-focused epilogue DLC. Yes, Thales winds up dead in most of the routes, but surely some enterprising bastard was waiting to steal his position.

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17 hours ago, Arachnofiend said:

I would have cut Silver Snow entirely - if you're not gonna have the balls to make it a route where you support Rhea then it just doesn't have anything of value to say that isn't already said by Verdant Wind. The truth behind Byleth's birth could have been done elsewhere.

Cut Silver Snow and suddenly Verdant Wind can have content that makes sense for Claude and Crimson Flower can have as many chapters as the other routes got.

I disagree. Verdant Wind is the most disjoint one in the current setting. Even we discount all the cutscenes missing Claude...

 

Like why would Claude sets a base deep behind enemy line, away from all resources and logistics when he has far more reasonable base in his country where he can recruit his army?

Both SS and AM player began as guerilla fighters without a base before, so it makes sense in their justification using monastery.

 

And as people mentioned, what happened to all the power dynamic foreshadowed in the alliances? They implied there are many factions in the alliances. In Verdant Wind it's just Lorenz in one level, and once his captured/killed they never mentioned about Alliances problems anymore. Then there was Almyra army, somehow they were fighting Alliance previous level, then Alliance just let them pass and they showed up as allied next level. Also what's with having Nader as retainer? How could you both fighting Almyra and at the same time having the same Almyra general governing your territory?

What's with Claude's signature tactics praised by the others? In AM he's actually a brilliant tactician by luring Imperial army deep into his territory than destroy it with Kingdom force. In Verdant Wind only thing that stood out was disguising as imperial soldiers to open the gate

 

Finally there was Nemesis, completely came out in the blue, with no developing or explanation, just some one dimensional bad guy serves no purpose other than a final boss. And Rhea having no conclusion either.

Edited by Timlugia

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I don't disagree with any of that; Verdant Wind has its problems as a story and isn't a great look at Claude as a character beyond some things you have to read between the lines for.

But if Silver Snow is going to follow the exact same path of "Reformed Church" that Verdant Wind does, then you cut Silver Snow and make Verdant Wind more exclusively Claude. If Silver Snow were a "Rhea was right actually" route then there would be room to differentiate the two, but as it stands you really only need one of them, and it's kind of absurd to cut Verdant Wind unless you were going to go all the way and cut the Leicester Alliance entirely (which... would suck, frankly).

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51 minutes ago, Arachnofiend said:

But if Silver Snow is going to follow the exact same path of "Reformed Church" that Verdant Wind does, then you cut Silver Snow and make Verdant Wind more exclusively Claude.

You are assuming Silver Snow was made second, but consider all the shared cutsecene, both animated and in game were made for Silver Snow, it's probably the other way around.

(Missing Claude completely, features only church soldiers, or having context inappropriate to Verdant Wind such as Edelgard's "I wanted to walk with you")

That Silver Snow was likely made first, then they took it to reuse for Verdant Wind by taking Grounder Field from Azure Moon. (also remember the glitch you could fight Hilda in that level, indicating it was a AM level first)  Rhea being a completely function character fully voiced in both languages in the datamine also suggested that she supposedly had greater presence in Silver Snow, but was taken out the last moment.

 

In that case I agree with Altrosa, they probably should save Verdant Wind as DLC so they have extra 9 months to work it.

Edited by Timlugia

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Which was made first is largely irrelevant in this discussion, it's all "shoulda coulda woulda" and none of us have the full context of what strains the production process had to deal with. Verdant Wind has more of a right to exist than Silver Snow does just by merit of being one of the houses - Silver Snow is only there for cowards who lack vision anyways. 😛

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Silver Snow needs to exist in the current state of the game because you have to choose a House with little context to inform the player that the princess is the main antagonist. Realizing that too late could be an unpleasant surprise after you've invested hours into the game already.

They just should have put more time into the game to make Verdant Wind a fully fleshed out, political intrigue-heavy route. It's not like people find Claude/the Alliance uninteresting. Putting it in DLC would have been terrible, particularly if you had to shell out more money to play with characters you interact with in the base game. Don't insult our intellect and just retailor it into Fire Emblem: Red and Blue if you can't be bothered lol

Verdant Wind is removed from the Edelgard x Dimitri conflict because Claude has no stake in it outside of being the leader of a territory Edelgard is invading and it's a copy paste route, while Azure Moon is removed from everything that isn't the Edelgard x Dimitri conflict and doesn't answer many lore questions at all. Or even really resolve that whole Duscur thing. The writing in general really feels like it just kind of drops off at the end.

 

 

 

Edited by Crysta

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I think a lot of BE students make sense on the Silver Snow route more than Crimson Flower once their character is explored outside of being enemies in other routes. Especially Linhardt.

I don't care for any of the excuses, his character lines up for him refusing to work with Edelgard who's causing a war and bloodshed for the sake of ideals he barely knows about nor does he know her personal struggle and story. The fact that his excuse is "fighting against you would be a pain" when the same logic could apply for fighting a huge ass dragon, miss thunderbrand, etc feels weak. It's also really cool that Linhardt brings some supplies for you in SS and you actually get gold for talking to him.

Ferdinand loses everything and he's noble enough to stand for what he believes in. Perfectly willing to call out Edelgard and becoming more than just a lapdog. I like that development better for his character than in CF where he just shuts up or shows no changing character. 

Petra only got brought over as a hostage and part of her character shows her still thinking about the past and having issues with it. In a certain support or two she reveals to hate the Empire for killing her father and that support can happen before the route split. I'm pretty sure in a realistic circumstance, revealing the leader of the very same Empire she holds a grudge against is about to start another war, unmasks to be the Flame Emperor who was part of the few disturbing the peace and threatening to kill anyone who stands in the middle of Edelgard's raid... Petra would not tolerate that, Edelgard being a former friend or not. 

Dorothea shows signs of not being okay with all the fighting pre timeskip. It still makes less sense for Dorothea to hop on board when she's not a fan of fighting and conquering. Edelgard starting the war, threatening to kill Dorothea if she gets in the way of a raid and all of that jazz.

Caspar can be dense, but he also consistently shows to act for what's right. Would he really be fine with Edelgard threatening the deaths of him and his friends after revealing she's the Flame Emperor, the same Flame Emperor commanding the Death Knight that kidnapped an innocent girl (Flayn). The BE students know the FE commanded Death Knight because "he" shows up in the map you get Flayn back from and tells Death Knight to leave. I doubt that Caspar would go "this is fine". 

Bernadetta would realistically hide in a corner before siding with Edelgard since she threatened to kill her and we all know how Bernie's like. 

The Flame Emperor situation and reveal in general should lead to the students that aren't Hubert going "nope", all of them aren't that close to Edelgard at all they're just a bunch of school kids with dreams. Edelgard in CF continues to lie to her friends anyway. She couldn't trust them enough to tell them in private about who did the nukes like Hubert and El did for Byleth. You think the BE students would ask more questions when Edelgard was chilling with Monica who reveals to be Kronya and the BE students see that shit from start to finish.  

Byleth themselves despite the weird scene before "route split"

Spoiler

shows hesitance on killing Edelgard at the beginning of Silver Snow post timeskip. Byleth lets Edelgard walk away.

Silver Snow is actually really cool and only underrated because the half baked version: Verdant Wind had the advertisement. The only thing it really has going for it is getting more Claude. SS brings interesting development for the Black Eagles students, who need it. 

Seteth and Flayn get more action and development, that's a bonus.

Crimson Flower as a concept is amazing: Sane Dimitri, a Rhea + Kingdom of Fargus team up against you, ...Dedue..., Playable Jeritza ((soon)), the idea of following a "conquer all of them" antagonistic kind of route, the return of Seiros, Edelgard potentially having some self awareness to realize she's not so different from Rhea ((especially when Rhea's actually relevant this route)), etc.

Instead we have a bunch of ideas failing to be realized with a lot of character butchering. The recruits having more solid explanations in every other route except Crimson Flower. Only Lysithea works realistically but post timeskip because Claude gambled on his allies surrendering. Ashe doesn't hate the Church and shouldn't, Lonato brought innocent people into the fray, Lonato resorted to violence and refused to listen to Ashe if you bring him. Why would Ashe take it out on the Church? Especially when Catherine will explain to him about Christophe. One of the more tragic and interesting characters in Crimson Flower aren't even from the BEs. It's Felix. There's a reddit write up about CF version of him that I can link if anyone hasn't seen it. It's so good.

Edited by Seazas

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1 hour ago, Seazas said:

I think a lot of BE students make sense on the Silver Snow route more than Crimson Flower once their character is explored outside of being enemies in other routes. Especially Linhardt.

I don't care for any of the excuses, his character lines up for him refusing to work with Edelgard who's causing a war and bloodshed for the sake of ideals he barely knows about nor does he know her personal struggle and story. The fact that his excuse is "fighting against you would be a pain" when the same logic could apply for fighting a huge ass dragon, miss thunderbrand, etc feels weak. It's also really cool that Linhardt brings some supplies for you in SS and you actually get gold for talking to him.

Ferdinand loses everything and he's noble enough to stand for what he believes in. Perfectly willing to call out Edelgard and becoming more than just a lapdog. I like that development better for his character than in CF where he just shuts up or shows no changing character. 

Petra only got brought over as a hostage and part of her character shows her still thinking about the past and having issues with it. In a certain support or two she reveals to hate the Empire for killing her father and that support can happen before the route split. I'm pretty sure in a realistic circumstance, revealing the leader of the very same Empire she holds a grudge against is about to start another war, unmasks to be the Flame Emperor who was part of the few disturbing the peace and threatening to kill anyone who stands in the middle of Edelgard's raid... Petra would not tolerate that, Edelgard being a former friend or not. 

Dorothea shows signs of not being okay with all the fighting pre timeskip. It still makes less sense for Dorothea to hop on board when she's not a fan of fighting and conquering. Edelgard starting the war, threatening to kill Dorothea if she gets in the way of a raid and all of that jazz.

Caspar can be dense, but he also consistently shows to act for what's right. Would he really be fine with Edelgard threatening the deaths of him and his friends after revealing she's the Flame Emperor, the same Flame Emperor commanding the Death Knight that kidnapped an innocent girl (Flayn). The BE students know the FE commanded Death Knight because "he" shows up in the map you get Flayn back from and tells Death Knight to leave. I doubt that Caspar would go "this is fine". 

Bernadetta would realistically hide in a corner before siding with Edelgard since she threatened to kill her and we all know how Bernie's like. 

The Flame Emperor situation and reveal in general should lead to the students that aren't Hubert going "nope", all of them aren't that close to Edelgard at all they're just a bunch of school kids with dreams. Edelgard in CF continues to lie to her friends anyway. She couldn't trust them enough to tell them in private about who did the nukes like Hubert and El did for Byleth. You think the BE students would ask more questions when Edelgard was chilling with Monica who reveals to be Kronya and the BE students see that shit from start to finish.  

Byleth themselves despite the weird scene before "route split"

  Hide contents

shows hesitance on killing Edelgard at the beginning of Silver Snow post timeskip. Byleth lets Edelgard walk away.

Silver Snow is actually really cool and only underrated because the half baked version: Verdant Wind had the advertisement. The only thing it really has going for it is getting more Claude. SS brings interesting development for the Black Eagles students, who need it. 

Seteth and Flayn get more action and development, that's a bonus.

Crimson Flower as a concept is amazing: Sane Dimitri, a Rhea + Kingdom of Fargus team up against you, ...Dedue..., Playable Jeritza ((soon)), the idea of following a "conquer all of them" antagonistic kind of route, the return of Seiros, Edelgard potentially having some self awareness to realize she's not so different from Rhea ((especially when Rhea's actually relevant this route)), etc.

Instead we have a bunch of ideas failing to be realized with a lot of character butchering. The recruits having more solid explanations in every other route except Crimson Flower. Only Lysithea works realistically but post timeskip because Claude gambled on his allies surrendering. Ashe doesn't hate the Church and shouldn't, Lonato brought innocent people into the fray, Lonato resorted to violence and refused to listen to Ashe if you bring him. Why would Ashe take it out on the Church? Especially when Catherine will explain to him about Christophe. One of the more tragic and interesting characters in Crimson Flower aren't even from the BEs. It's Felix. There's a reddit write up about CF version of him that I can link if anyone hasn't seen it. It's so good.

I could see Dorothea joining Edelgard since she hates the crest system and the nobility. Her supports show her supporting Edelgard in her ambitions. 

Petra I could see joining just to keep Brigid safe from the Empire’s reign.

Everyone else I agree though. 

The problem I have with Crimson Flower is that it seems that the narrative is different from the other routes due to trying to make Edelgard a hero, while Rhea is the villain; particularly turning her into a psychopath which never occurs in any other route. Edelgard is also notably more merciful giving the Church of Seiros a chance to surrender before the final fight. 

Claude doesn’t seem terribly fitted for the Verdant Wind. He speaks about overcoming racism but that only get some lip service between him and Cyril and some paralouges. I thinks it’s a shame too, since Edelgard is racist towards the Nabeatea, it could make Edelgard seem like another opposite, since they have same goals but different views. Maybe even use it to encourage the Nabeatea to reveal their true indentites.

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6 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

I could see Dorothea joining Edelgard since she hates the crest system and the nobility. Her supports show her supporting Edelgard in her ambitions. 

Petra I could see joining just to keep Brigid safe from the Empire’s reign.

Everyone else I agree though. 

The problem I have with Crimson Flower is that it seems that the narrative is different from the other routes due to trying to make Edelgard a hero, while Rhea is the villain; particularly turning her into a psychopath which never occurs in any other route. Edelgard is also notably more merciful giving the Church of Seiros a chance to surrender before the final fight. 

Claude doesn’t seem terribly fitted for the Verdant Wind. He speaks about overcoming racism but that only get some lip service between him and Cyril and some paralouges. I thinks it’s a shame too, since Edelgard is racist towards the Nabeatea, it could make Edelgard seem like another opposite, since they have same goals but different views. Maybe even use it to encourage the Nabeatea to reveal their true indentites.

Dorothea hates the crest system but she also had a desire for a peaceful life and a simple future where she could be happy. Even then, would Dorothea realistically join up with Edelgard after Edelgard starts a raid and threatens her? Edelgard and Dorothea aren't that close.

Petra desires independence for Brigid and planned to stand up and take responsibility as a ruler for Brigid's sake. Brigid was already stuck under the Empire's reign, it's why she's at Garreg Mach to begin with. She's a hostage to keep Brigid in line. Petra shows a hatred for the Empire too ((not Edelgard and Hubert specifically though)). There's a lot of things leaning toward Petra not being cool with this. Especially if she gets to witness all the shit "Flame Emperor" is doing.

I'm glad you agree with the other points.

Crimson Flower was interesting but fell flat in a lot of areas. I'm just glad the Black Eagles can get focus and development in Silver Snow.

That's the effect of copying Silver Snow. At least Claude's a fun interesting character. We don't get much of him in other routes.

Edited by Seazas

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Crimson Flower was the first route I did and at no point I felt Edelgard and co. were the "good guys", so when I saw people complain about how she's painted as an unambiguous heroic figure there I was like "Did we play the same game?", and I didn't quite figure out why would anyone end up with said impression until I recalled how the game...kinda forgot to adress properly she was the Flame Emperor. I get why the crew forgets about it, but at the same time I've would've loved to see a scene where after the whole "Rhea was a dragon all along" incident the other students call out Edelgard for allying with cartoonishly evil dudes when she could've easily tried to tell her classmates why she distrust the church so much.

Other than that, the character motivations for the core cast joining her don't bother me that much since not only it's implied outside her route they aren't recruited willingly - for the most part - but also because 1. Rhea going crazy isn't that surprising when you remember she's canonically absolutely livid during the Holy Tomb raid in all routes (remember when she tried to stop Dimitri from decapitating Edelgard in BL? me neither) and 2. Rhea revealing herself as The Inmaculate One opens a huge can of worms due to the church claiming in-universe the dragon is a "messenger of the goddess" who punishes people when they're bad, who also happens to be unrelated to Seiros.

I do agree the cast feels very underutilized compared to Silver Snow, and I get the feeling that route being worked on last or a low priority hurted its potential a lot.

15 hours ago, Seazas said:

Silver Snow is actually really cool and only underrated because the half baked version: Verdant Wind had the advertisement. The only thing it really has going for it is getting more Claude. SS brings interesting development for the Black Eagles students, who need it.

I honestly get the feeling both routes were fused together at some point, so I find very hard to pinpoint exactly which one copied which. Verdant Wind's chapter with Fort Merceus is the best example of this since it uses 2 cutscenes clearly meant for separate routes (GD and Church respectively).

Edited by Moltz23

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7 hours ago, Seazas said:

Dorothea hates the crest system but she also had a desire for a peaceful life and a simple future where she could be happy. Even then, would Dorothea realistically join up with Edelgard after Edelgard starts a raid and threatens her? Edelgard and Dorothea aren't that close.

Petra desires independence for Brigid and planned to stand up and take responsibility as a ruler for Brigid's sake. Brigid was already stuck under the Empire's reign, it's why she's at Garreg Mach to begin with. She's a hostage to keep Brigid in line. Petra shows a hatred for the Empire too ((not Edelgard and Hubert specifically though)). There's a lot of things leaning toward Petra not being cool with this. Especially if she gets to witness all the shit "Flame Emperor" is doing.

There are few people in the story that Dorothea is better friends with than Edelgard; hell, Hubert is the one male character Dorothea isn't initially hostile towards in their supports. If hating war is going to be why Dorothea drops out of Crimson Flower she wouldn't participate in any of the other routes either.

Edelgard makes it abundantly clear she intends to restore Brigid's independence and is not herself responsible for the decision to take Petra away. I think Petra's a character that makes sense on any route simply because the most important thing for her is to be with the winners.

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8 minutes ago, Arachnofiend said:

There are few people in the story that Dorothea is better friends with than Edelgard; hell, Hubert is the one male character Dorothea isn't initially hostile towards in their supports. If hating war is going to be why Dorothea drops out of Crimson Flower she wouldn't participate in any of the other routes either.

Edelgard makes it abundantly clear she intends to restore Brigid's independence and is not herself responsible for the decision to take Petra away. I think Petra's a character that makes sense on any route simply because the most important thing for her is to be with the winners.

Completely agreed. Dorothea and Edelgard are obviously good friends, and Dorothea openly dislikes the crest system, the nobility, and the church. Her being on Silver Snow is crazy and basically relies on her having a magical connection to Byleth.

Petra I agree will fight for Brigid first and foremost, but she also has affection for Edelgard (hell, her quote as she lies dying on AM/VW is regret that she wasn't able to defend Edelgard). It makes perfect sense that she would fight with the Empire as it's the best thing for Brigid in the present. For her to jump and support a third party which can't guarantee Brigid's safety is questionable, again I don't think she makes any sense on Silver Snow.

 

15 hours ago, Seazas said:

I think a lot of BE students make sense on the Silver Snow route more than Crimson Flower once their character is explored outside of being enemies in other routes. Especially Linhardt.

 I don't care for any of the excuses, his character lines up for him refusing to work with Edelgard who's causing a war and bloodshed for the sake of ideals he barely knows about nor does he know her personal struggle and story. The fact that his excuse is "fighting against you would be a pain" when the same logic could apply for fighting a huge ass dragon, miss thunderbrand, etc feels weak. It's also really cool that Linhardt brings some supplies for you in SS and you actually get gold for talking to him.

Caspar's the son of the Minister of the Military and obviously loves and respects his father (this comes across even if he's recruited to anti-imperial routes). His idea of justice is clearly not an anti-war one, nor is it an anti-violence one. I don't really buy him turning against his family and his country; it seems to rely on the player's idea of justice, rather than his. People have sided with countries and rulers far more evil than Adrestia/Edelgard and been convinced they are just, both in fiction and in real life.

Can you explain why you think Linhardt makes more sense in SS? Personally I think he's like Bernie; he would take the path of least resistance. As you note, he thinks fighting is a pain and has no desire to do it. The only reason he does it at all is because of loyalty to his family, his country, and his friends. Why would he leave to join the Church of Seiros and fight against those things?

Ferdinand is the only Eagle who truly makes sense on Silver Snow, although he works on either route, it just reframes his character growth (although it proceeds along largely the same lines).

In general, I don't think the Silver Snow direction for the characters works narratively. Collectively, they abandon their previous lives in order to honour a promise to meet again which they made at Edelgard's behest... in order to fight against her? I don't buy it at all. The writers obviously agreed that the BE characters are naturally inclined to support the empire, which is why all of them do so by default in AM/VW. (Similar to how the game paints Hanneman/Manuela as natural imperial supporters, and the rest of the staff/knights as natural church supporters.)

 

The one place I will agree with you is that Chapter 11 doesn't really work on the BE route. You can tell it was written for Dimitri first and they were too lazy to make a different map. Why does Edelgard not make a plea to her friends before the fight? Why do the rest of the Eagles fight against the army of their own country, at the behest of a character/organization many of them clearly don't like (Rhea)? Why does everyone collectively pretend the fight never happened after the fact? It's a bit of a miss whichever plot branch you're headed down after that.

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My suggestion for an alternative chapter 11 for Crimson Flower:

Spoiler

When you go to Edelgard's coronation, she and Hubert pull you aside to tell you their plan. You can have the same map as the other routes, but reframed so that the purpose is to expose Rhea as a secret dragon. You get the option to say no here, but if you do Hubert kills you and you get booted back to the menu.

 

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

Completely agreed. Dorothea and Edelgard are obviously good friends, and Dorothea openly dislikes the crest system, the nobility, and the church. Her being on Silver Snow is crazy and basically relies on her having a magical connection to Byleth.

Petra I agree will fight for Brigid first and foremost, but she also has affection for Edelgard (hell, her quote as she lies dying on AM/VW is regret that she wasn't able to defend Edelgard). It makes perfect sense that she would fight with the Empire as it's the best thing for Brigid in the present. For her to jump and support a third party which can't guarantee Brigid's safety is questionable, again I don't think she makes any sense on Silver Snow.

 

Caspar's the son of the Minister of the Military and obviously loves and respects his father (this comes across even if he's recruited to anti-imperial routes). His idea of justice is clearly not an anti-war one, nor is it an anti-violence one. I don't really buy him turning against his family and his country; it seems to rely on the player's idea of justice, rather than his. People have sided with countries and rulers far more evil than Adrestia/Edelgard and been convinced they are just, both in fiction and in real life.

Can you explain why you think Linhardt makes more sense in SS? Personally I think he's like Bernie; he would take the path of least resistance. As you note, he thinks fighting is a pain and has no desire to do it. The only reason he does it at all is because of loyalty to his family, his country, and his friends. Why would he leave to join the Church of Seiros and fight against those things?

Ferdinand is the only Eagle who truly makes sense on Silver Snow, although he works on either route, it just reframes his character growth (although it proceeds along largely the same lines).

In general, I don't think the Silver Snow direction for the characters works narratively. Collectively, they abandon their previous lives in order to honour a promise to meet again which they made at Edelgard's behest... in order to fight against her? I don't buy it at all. The writers obviously agreed that the BE characters are naturally inclined to support the empire, which is why all of them do so by default in AM/VW. (Similar to how the game paints Hanneman/Manuela as natural imperial supporters, and the rest of the staff/knights as natural church supporters.)

 

The one place I will agree with you is that Chapter 11 doesn't really work on the BE route. You can tell it was written for Dimitri first and they were too lazy to make a different map. Why does Edelgard not make a plea to her friends before the fight? Why do the rest of the Eagles fight against the army of their own country, at the behest of a character/organization many of them clearly don't like (Rhea)? Why does everyone collectively pretend the fight never happened after the fact? It's a bit of a miss whichever plot branch you're headed down after that.

That reasoning does not excuse Petra and Dorothea blindly ignoring all of what Edelgard did. Petra having a loyalty in other routes where she's not a focus nor does she witness what Edelgard does, can't cut it nor excuse it. It just shows Petra's ignorance. She has a few motives to join with the Empire but not nearly as much motive that you're giving credit for. Dorothea doesn't hate the church either, only corrupt nobles. Who the very same Church has shown in its teachings to be against nobles that abuse their power. Trying to argue that it's just Byleth keeping her from joining the Empire is dishonest.

Caspar shows hesitance and doesn't ever desire to fight his father either so it's not like it's a 180 in character. It's a major part of Caspar's character that he wants to build his own future and makes his own independent choices so trying to treat him like a grunt that will be blindly loyal to anything except for what he believes in is dumb. Caspar acts for what he thinks is right and finding out all the shit Edelgard's doing shouldn't lead to a "this is fine" kind of reaction. Especially when Edelgard threatens him and his friends and that's just swept under the rug. Silver Snow has the better advantage because Edelgard's questionable decisions actually blow up in her face in the most realistic manner possible, the BE students not being okay with that. Trying to argue "but family!" in war is basically arguing for them to drop their independent characters and blindly have a conformist attitude. Caspar contradicts that shit. He shows no hesitation against his uncle Randolph in their special battle conversation. Trying to argue potential struggles with family would stop someone like Caspar who recklessly does what he believes to be right is just wrong. The "families" that choose to be soldiers get treated like soldiers ((with a bit of hesitance)), it's WAR. Everyone knew what they were signing up for what kind of logic is that?

Because Linhardt isn't that close to Edelgard, and joining the Empire has a fuck ton of resistance too and I don't see good reasons for him to go "whatever, water under the bridge" and never ask her any questions or refuse to be apart of a war where Edelgard is the aggressor. And no, I find it ridiculous that Bernadetta would randomly forget Edelgard threatening her life too. He like many BE students simply choose what they think is right and makes their own decisions, also... they don't mind Rhea in any route but Crimson Flower. It's a common trope in Fire Emblem where characters turn away from their homes for what they believe in. 

Silver Snow narrative works fine, they don't witness what the Flame Emperor does in other scenarios and in general the students aren't explored as characters when they're enemy units. This provides a different development that the Crimson Flower doesn't have. No one questions El or calls things out. They feel like characters that fall under the banner of Edelgard's pretty little lies. Especially when she lies to them in Crimson Flower the supposed route where she's at her best. 

Edited by Seazas

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1 hour ago, Arachnofiend said:

There are few people in the story that Dorothea is better friends with than Edelgard; hell, Hubert is the one male character Dorothea isn't initially hostile towards in their supports. If hating war is going to be why Dorothea drops out of Crimson Flower she wouldn't participate in any of the other routes either.

Edelgard makes it abundantly clear she intends to restore Brigid's independence and is not herself responsible for the decision to take Petra away. I think Petra's a character that makes sense on any route simply because the most important thing for her is to be with the winners.

Said this already: Dorothea isn't that close to Edelgard where she'll blindly excuse Edelgard's questionable actions and threatening to kill her. Not once has Dorothea shown that kind of loyalty to her. The same logic applying to Petra, she respects Edelgard and Hubert but enough to ignore their actions? Doubt it.

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Nobody said anything about her following blindly. You clearly think there's zero justification for Edelgard fighting against the church so of course you're not going to accept why some might think otherwise.

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