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Is the Church route worth playing?

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6 minutes ago, Arachnofiend said:

Nobody said anything about her following blindly. You clearly think there's zero justification for Edelgard fighting against the church so of course you're not going to accept why some might think otherwise.

That's a shallow defense. I don't mind Edelgard turning against the Church but a lot of shit she did should lead to a repercussion, that never happens in CF, she lies to her friends again post timeskip and no one bats an eye nor asks any questions which they should've done to begin with. That is why Silver Snow is narratively superior, only in interesting ideas and potential does CF have SS beat.

Edited by Seazas

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Just now, Seazas said:

That's a shallow defense. I don't mind Edelgard turning against the Church but a lot of shit she did should lead to a repercussion, that never happens in CF and she can lie to her friends again and no one will blink an eye. 

Crimson Flower is already the one route where one of your active party members will leave and become an enemy. If you're this concerned about repercussions for Edelgard I'd be fascinated to know how you feel about Dimitri abandoning his home for his obsession with vengeance (which is based on a false premise to begin with) and then getting a hero's welcome when he's finally sad enough to do the thing he was supposed to do in the first place.

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5 minutes ago, Arachnofiend said:

Crimson Flower is already the one route where one of your active party members will leave and become an enemy. If you're this concerned about repercussions for Edelgard I'd be fascinated to know how you feel about Dimitri abandoning his home for his obsession with vengeance (which is based on a false premise to begin with) and then getting a hero's welcome when he's finally sad enough to do the thing he was supposed to do in the first place.

Dimitri actively has allies questioning him, a character like Felix giving Dimitri shit every step of the way ((mostly out of care but still)) and causes the death of someone close to him.

No one in the Eagles at the very least heavily questions Edelgard and it's awful. How can you excuse this shit? The only reason they realistically join the Empire in other non CF routes because they don't know about half of what Edelgard was doing. Because you don't bring them to Remire, Holy Tomb, they never find out about FE commanding Death Knight, etc.

Edited by Seazas

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Of course they know Edelgard commands the Death Knight... When the war starts he's in charge of an Imperial army. Do you need the game to spell everything out for you explicitly?

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1 minute ago, Arachnofiend said:

Of course they know Edelgard commands the Death Knight... When the war starts he's in charge of an Imperial army. Do you need the game to spell everything out for you explicitly?

Then what's the excuse of them not questioning her about it nor asking why someone serving her kidnapped an innocent girl for her blood? Death Knight has been causing trouble a lot to begin with. This is very weak defense to justify them asking no questions.

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6 minutes ago, Seazas said:

The only reason they realistically join in other non CF routes because they don't know about half of what Edelgard was doing. Because you don't bring them to Remire, Holy Tomb, they never find out about FE commanding Death Knight, etc. 

It does become common knowledge in the monastery after chapter 11 that Edelgard was the Flame Emperor tho. By association alone they can easily figure out she's involved in pretty shady stuff, yet they'll never defect unless recruited otherwise. Heck, after the timeskip you can see Caspar in Fort Merceus reporting back to the Death Knight like it was no thing AKA the same guy who he onced wanted caught 5 years ago.

Edited by Moltz23

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2 minutes ago, Moltz23 said:

It does become common knowledge in the monastery after chapter 11 that Edelgard was the Flame Emperor tho. By association alone they can easily figure out she's involved in pretty shady stuff, yet they'll never defect unless recruited otherwise. Heck, after the timeskip you can see Caspar in Fort Merceus reporting back to the Death Knight like it was no thing AKA the same guy who he onced wanted caught 5 years ago.

And that says a lot about how little their characters are explored as enemies. Guess that happens often though. At least Jeritza specifically would cover that hole when he's playable in CF. That doesn't really justify them not asking anything else, like Edelgard constantly hanging out with Monica who reveals to be Kronya, the same Kronya that killed Jeralt

Edited by Seazas

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16 hours ago, Seazas said:

Because Linhardt isn't that close to Edelgard, and joining the Empire has a fuck ton of resistance too and I don't see good reasons for him to go "whatever, water under the bridge" and never ask her any questions or refuse to be apart of a war where Edelgard is the aggressor

You didn't answer my question, just provided more arguments for why he would stay home rather than joining the Black Eagle Strike Force. Why would he abandon his family, friends, and country in order to fight in a war against them even though he hates fighting? Doing so would require strong beliefs that Edelgard's path is wrong which he clearly does not hold.

The Eagles going along with their friends, their country, their families, is in fact the logical path. Jumping ship to an enemy army is a rare thing in real life and even in Fire Emblem it tends to be accompanied by a major scene in which the character makes a conscious choice to throw away everything they have to fight for what they believe in. We don't get that at all in Silver Snow. You can infer reasons from the Holy Tomb sequence, but the Holy Tomb sequence doesn't work well on BE regardless and is never referenced again on either branch, a point which you ignored.

In general it's crystal clear that you have major problems with Edelgard's behaviour, but there's no evidence the Eagles share your views. In Crimson Flower, Azure Moon, and Verdant Winds, they're all very willing to go along with her (and despite your complaints, they DO know a lot of the things she did, obviously including commanding the Death Knight and being the Flame Emperor). In Silver Snow they end up against her, but even then they never reference the things you supposedly think cause them to change sides, because Silver Snow does not explore why they behave the way they do as it characterizes them inconsistently with the three other routes.

Dorothea expresses subtle contempt for the church at various points, including her first kill in Chapter 2, the scene at the end of Chapter 4, and I believe one of her monastery conversations though it's been a while. Not one of the Eagles expresses particular love for them. Them uniting under a Church of Seiros banner does not make sense. Them showing up in Chapter 13 for a promise they made to Edelgard and then deciding to fight against her makes even less sense.

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17 hours ago, Seazas said:

And that says a lot about how little their characters are explored as enemies. Guess that happens often though. At least Jeritza specifically would cover that hole when he's playable in CF. That doesn't really justify them not asking anything else, like Edelgard constantly hanging out with Monica who reveals to be Kronya, the same Kronya that killed Jeralt

More like Monica is constantly hanging out with Edelgard. She hangs out with her to make sure Edelgard doesn't pull anything against TWSITD and doesn't get too comfortable with Byleth. This even more evident when you see the lost items Hubert drops on the places when Monica bothers Edelgard (A folding razor).

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2 hours ago, Hekselka said:

More like Monica is constantly hanging out with Edelgard. She hangs out with her to make sure Edelgard doesn't pull anything against TWSITD and doesn't get too comfortable with Byleth. This even more evident when you see the lost items Hubert drops on the places when Monica bothers Edelgard (A folding razor).

No one questioning that or saying anything about that incident doesn't make it any less poorly written. 

Edited by Seazas

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Should note that the difference between other routes and black eagles in regard to the flame emperor reveal is that in other routes all the evil shit Edelgard did happened to a different class and a teacher they were fond of but much more distant towards. In Black eagles they were explicitly manipulated and used by Edelgard who acted as the house leader even as she personally put them all in harms way and she never gave away a hint of remorse l. Now she's saying stand aside or die, so they fight against her in the tomb but she escapes. So Edelgard raises an army and sieges gareg mach. In other routes they flee like many other students while in silver snow they stand against her in the siege, they watch numerous friends die as well as other innocents and then their beloved teacher is killed as well. Many of them return to the empire some refuse but Edelgards reaction in the goddess tower is clear, all bridges have been burned. So Edelgard still goes and so do the students each drawn for their own reasons, Edelgard meets Byleth fights them and flees. Bylethbrejoins his students, it's a happy time and Seteth convinces them to stand against the emperor, the students strengthen Byleths will who's actually the one least enthusiastic about fighting Edelgard and an army is formed. Those arguing silver snow is it of character are ignoring the true extant of betrayal the black eagles are feeling coupled with Hubert's smug reveal as well suggesting that their fondness for Edelgard had only ever been one sided. Only in silver snow does this happen.

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Crimson Flower just does not work in the way the game is right now. How can people forgive all the shit they went trough for the entire year like nothing happened. Edelgard tried to kill them or worse many times, and she clearly showed a complete lack of trust of any of them.  How can i think of Edelgard has a friend if she never let me interact whit the real her? Those that are willingly to join her should have either joined the conspiracy offscreen over the course of the game or distant enought to not being directly endangered by the FE stuff. Her route highlight the overarching problem of most character being recruitable in routes they don't make sense in.  

Edited by Flere210

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1 hour ago, CyberNinja said:

Should note that the difference between other routes and black eagles in regard to the flame emperor reveal is that in other routes all the evil shit Edelgard did happened to a different class and a teacher they were fond of but much more distant towards. In Black eagles they were explicitly manipulated and used by Edelgard who acted as the house leader even as she personally put them all in harms way and she never gave away a hint of remorse l. Now she's saying stand aside or die, so they fight against her in the tomb but she escapes. So Edelgard raises an army and sieges gareg mach. In other routes they flee like many other students while in silver snow they stand against her in the siege, they watch numerous friends die as well as other innocents and then their beloved teacher is killed as well. Many of them return to the empire some refuse but Edelgards reaction in the goddess tower is clear, all bridges have been burned. So Edelgard still goes and so do the students each drawn for their own reasons, Edelgard meets Byleth fights them and flees. Bylethbrejoins his students, it's a happy time and Seteth convinces them to stand against the emperor, the students strengthen Byleths will who's actually the one least enthusiastic about fighting Edelgard and an army is formed. Those arguing silver snow is it of character are ignoring the true extant of betrayal the black eagles are feeling coupled with Hubert's smug reveal as well suggesting that their fondness for Edelgard had only ever been one sided. Only in silver snow does this happen.

 

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Crimson Flower just does not work in the way the game is right now. How can people forgive all the shit they went trough for the entire year like nothing happened. Edelgard tried to kill them or worse many times, and she clearly showed a complete lack of trust of any of them.  How can i think of Edelgard has a friend if she never let me interact whit tge real her? Those that are willingly to join her should have either joined the conspiracy offscreen over the course of the game or distant ebought to not being directly endangered by the FE stuff. Her route highlight the overarching problem of most character being recruitable in routes they don't make sense in.  

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I mean, a lot more goes into a decision like that than whether or not you like or even trust Edelgard. Family, politics, survivability, etc. Lorenz is a good example of someone throwing their lot with the Empire simply for the sake of his House rather than any real affection for Edelgard or her cause.

That said, though, a cornerstone of Edelgard's mission involves completely undoing the caste system and she outright assassinates some prominent nobles, so I'm not sure if that's even in her favor. I'm surprised there wasn't a considerable amount of anti-Edelgard sentiment within her own territories and she didn't have to contend with great civil unrest WHILE trying to expand her dominion.

tl;dr the geopolitics in this fantasy game aren't very realistic.

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There is Ferdinand in Silver Snow, but you would expect more raised up against her. It’s a shame Claude didn’t get to pull his political genius by incite a civil war within empire.

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lol instead Claude is the one tied up with trying to prevent his own civil war, preventing him from mustering the force needed to challenge the Empire until Byleth arrives.

MAKES SENSE

EDIT: tbf that is actually realistic, I just find it strange that the same doesn't apply to the Empire

Edited by Crysta

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48 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I mean, a lot more goes into a decision like that than whether or not you like or even trust Edelgard. Family, politics, survivability, etc. Lorenz is a good example of someone throwing their lot with the Empire simply for the sake of his House rather than any real affection for Edelgard or her cause.

That said, though, a cornerstone of Edelgard's mission involves completely undoing the caste system and she outright assassinates some prominent nobles, so I'm not sure if that's even in her favor. I'm surprised there wasn't a considerable amount of anti-Edelgard sentiment within her own territories and she didn't have to contend with great civil unrest WHILE trying to expand her dominion.

tl;dr the geopolitics in this fantasy game aren't very realistic.

Well that's the case of Lorenz mostly following his duty as a noble. Caspar, Dorothea, Linhardt, Bernadetta and Petra have no such obligation. It's why it makes more sense for them refusing to fight for someone that lied to them, did horrible shit, start a war and threaten their own lives.

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1 hour ago, Timlugia said:

It’s a shame Claude didn’t get to pull his political genius by incite a civil war within empire.

With what resources? Claude is leader of the Alliance and has ties to Almyra, which allows him to keep Leicester under control, but what agents does he have within the Empire to pull off such a stunt?

48 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Well that's the case of Lorenz mostly following his duty as a noble. Caspar, Dorothea, Linhardt, Bernadetta and Petra have no such obligation. It's why it makes more sense for them refusing to fight for someone that lied to them, did horrible shit, start a war and threaten their own lives.

If you were arguing that they should stay out of the war, I could potentially agree, but they have no fealty to the Church of Seiros, and no real reason to join them. But I can already tell you hate Edelgard too much to see reason, so I'll stop now. Don't even bother responding to this.

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1 hour ago, Sid Starkiller said:

With what resources? Claude is leader of the Alliance and has ties to Almyra, which allows him to keep Leicester under control, but what agents does he have within the Empire to pull off such a stunt?

If you were arguing that they should stay out of the war, I could potentially agree, but they have no fealty to the Church of Seiros, and no real reason to join them. But I can already tell you hate Edelgard too much to see reason, so I'll stop now. Don't even bother responding to this.

This is the 5th time another user whines about me "hating Edelgard" even tho I said her route is good in potential. Edelgard as a character is fine, but BE students randomly having loyalty to her after what happened is stupid.

The Church Route doesn't have the BE students saying they love the Church now, they joined for their own ideals and reasons. Between the Empire or Church routes, the direction with their characters make more sense than CF. 

Edited by Seazas

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1 hour ago, Seazas said:

This is the 5th time another user whines about me "hating Edelgard" even tho I said her route is good in potential. Edelgard as a character is fine, but BE students randomly having loyalty to her after what happened is stupid.

The Church Route doesn't have the BE students saying they love the Church now, they joined for their own ideals and reasons. Between the Empire or Church routes, the direction with their characters make more sense than CF. 

I like all the lords, Dimitri's probably a close second but I do prefer Edelgard. It's why I prefer Silver Snow, oddly enough, I feel it does the Byleth-Edelgard relationship best, better than Crimson Flower and certainly better than Verdant Wind.

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4 hours ago, Seazas said:

Well that's the case of Lorenz mostly following his duty as a noble. Caspar, Dorothea, Linhardt, Bernadetta and Petra have no such obligation. It's why it makes more sense for them refusing to fight for someone that lied to them, did horrible shit, start a war and threaten their own lives.

Not sure it has anything to do with his role as a noble, actually; if anything his views in that regard run contrary to what Edelgard is trying to accomplish. He is doing it for survival. Gloucester territory is particularly vulnerable to Imperial invasion, and presumably they did not have the time to prepare to repel an invasion. If they ever could.

Petra's land is in a similar situation: sandwiched between two significantly larger nations. As Brigid's future leader, she has a responsibility beyond just looking out for her own interests and feelings, and she is well aware of that.

I can see only Ferdie and Caspar actively trying to stop Edelgard, and the latter shows quite a bit of reluctance about fighting his dad. Dorothea, Linhardt, and Bernadetta would probably prefer to just not fight at all, even in the aftermath of Edelgard's villainous betrayal, so it may make more sense to have their motivation contingent on the fact they want to help their teacher. Idk.

On a sidenote, I'm curious about Azure Moon Ferdinand because Verdant Wind Ferdinand has interesting monastery dialogue after the fight in Gronder, where he complains about Dimitri's retainers having a responsibility to reel him in before he got himself and his forces killed. Is he comfortable just hanging around and letting it happen in that route because he's banned from cutscene dialogue lol?

Edited by Crysta

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1 hour ago, CyberNinja said:

I like all the lords, Dimitri's probably a close second but I do prefer Edelgard. It's why I prefer Silver Snow, oddly enough, I feel it does the Byleth-Edelgard relationship best, better than Crimson Flower and certainly better than Verdant Wind.

Your taste is off the charts, Edelgard is a complete and well handled tragic character in  SS and slightly AM

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Not sure it has anything to do with his role as a noble, actually; if anything his views in that regard run contrary to what Edelgard is trying to accomplish. He is doing it for survival. Gloucester territory is particularly vulnerable to Imperial invasion, and presumably they did not have the time to prepare to repel an invasion. If they ever could.

Petra's land is in a similar situation: sandwiched between two significantly larger nations. As Brigid's future leader, she has a responsibility beyond just looking out for her own interests and feelings, and she is well aware of that.

I can see only Ferdie and Caspar actively trying to stop Edelgard, and the latter shows quite a bit of reluctance about fighting his dad. Dorothea, Linhardt, and Bernadetta would probably prefer to just not fight at all, even in the aftermath of Edelgard's villainous betrayal, so it may make more sense to have their motivation contingent on the fact they want to help their teacher. Idk.

On a sidenote, I'm curious about Azure Moon Ferdinand because Verdant Wind Ferdinand has interesting monastery dialogue after the fight in Gronder, where he complains about Dimitri's retainers having a responsibility to reel him in before he got himself and his forces killed. Is he comfortable just hanging around and letting it happen in that route because he's banned from cutscene dialogue lol?

Sure regarding Petra but she doesn't have much loyalty to the Empire, she only does if she's unaware of what Edelgard did

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She has as much loyalty as being the future monarch of a vassal state entails.

Which, if it means keeping her people safe, may extend pretty far regardless of whether or not she likes Edelgard.

Edited by Crysta

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10 hours ago, Crysta said:

Not sure it has anything to do with his role as a noble, actually; if anything his views in that regard run contrary to what Edelgard is trying to accomplish. He is doing it for survival. Gloucester territory is particularly vulnerable to Imperial invasion, and presumably they did not have the time to prepare to repel an invasion. If they ever could.

Petra's land is in a similar situation: sandwiched between two significantly larger nations. As Brigid's future leader, she has a responsibility beyond just looking out for her own interests and feelings, and she is well aware of that.

I can see only Ferdie and Caspar actively trying to stop Edelgard, and the latter shows quite a bit of reluctance about fighting his dad. Dorothea, Linhardt, and Bernadetta would probably prefer to just not fight at all, even in the aftermath of Edelgard's villainous betrayal, so it may make more sense to have their motivation contingent on the fact they want to help their teacher. Idk.

On a sidenote, I'm curious about Azure Moon Ferdinand because Verdant Wind Ferdinand has interesting monastery dialogue after the fight in Gronder, where he complains about Dimitri's retainers having a responsibility to reel him in before he got himself and his forces killed. Is he comfortable just hanging around and letting it happen in that route because he's banned from cutscene dialogue lol?

Have to say, I agree with you here. Going by student:

Ferdinand: Has the most reason to oppose her, though his supports reveal deep respect for her, and in CF he comments he always intended to overthrow his father and found it jarring just how easily Edelgard sweeps him aside. He's the easiest to see opposing her, but his deep sense of duty to the Empire and respect for her make it feasible for him to join her on CF.

Caspar: Justice is a big thing for him, but he's also very scared of fighting his dad. He's a fence situation where even if he feels Edelgard is wrong in some ways, he has enough reasons to stay in the Empire that he needs that bond with Byleth to push him over to the other side.

Lindhart: Quite frankly, SS doesn't make sense. He'd rather stay at home. At the beginning of SS your group is a bunch of rebels with a base and pretty much nothing else. CF makes more sense though honestly he should still stay home unless his friends guilt-trip him into fighting.

Petra: Depends on what is best for Brigid. Remember that post-time skip, regardless of path, the Empire holds the upper hand, even if it has overreached a bit. She needs a genuine reason to believe the Empire will fall to side against them, because Brigid is a vassal state and would be punished harshly if they oppose the Empire.

Dorothea: She does dislike the class system tremendously, but honestly she'd rather stay out of the fighting in most cases. She IS interested in securing her own future though, and the war is where the future will be determined so... maybe?

Bernadetta: She's a Byleth girl. Honestly, she flat out says pre-time skip (I think either during post-Gronder celebration or before the ball?) that Byleth is the reason she can even leave her room for a bit every day (which in both BE paths she does post-skip where in other paths she remains a shut-in). She'll go where he/she goes, or she'll stay home.

 

@Seazas: I think you're overestimating the idea of betrayal the BEs feel in CF. In the Holy Tomb they get the bomb dropped on them and are severely confused, but they've had the opportunity to bond with Edelgard by then, so they swing based on Byleth's decision because given the confusion they run on instinct and follow the Professor that has led them to victory again and again. In CF this means they go with Edelgard and find she genuinely does value their friendship and didn't want to fight them. In SS this means she runs off without explanation so they're left doubting as per your argument of "were our bonds even genuine?" This is why the Holy Tomb decision is so critical for the students: because in one path Edelgard gets the chance to explain that yes, she is their friend but she had to make hard choices as Empress and in the other they never get that explanation

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2 hours ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

Have to say, I agree with you here. Going by student:

Ferdinand: Has the most reason to oppose her, though his supports reveal deep respect for her, and in CF he comments he always intended to overthrow his father and found it jarring just how easily Edelgard sweeps him aside. He's the easiest to see opposing her, but his deep sense of duty to the Empire and respect for her make it feasible for him to join her on CF.

Caspar: Justice is a big thing for him, but he's also very scared of fighting his dad. He's a fence situation where even if he feels Edelgard is wrong in some ways, he has enough reasons to stay in the Empire that he needs that bond with Byleth to push him over to the other side.

Lindhart: Quite frankly, SS doesn't make sense. He'd rather stay at home. At the beginning of SS your group is a bunch of rebels with a base and pretty much nothing else. CF makes more sense though honestly he should still stay home unless his friends guilt-trip him into fighting.

Petra: Depends on what is best for Brigid. Remember that post-time skip, regardless of path, the Empire holds the upper hand, even if it has overreached a bit. She needs a genuine reason to believe the Empire will fall to side against them, because Brigid is a vassal state and would be punished harshly if they oppose the Empire.

Dorothea: She does dislike the class system tremendously, but honestly she'd rather stay out of the fighting in most cases. She IS interested in securing her own future though, and the war is where the future will be determined so... maybe?

Bernadetta: She's a Byleth girl. Honestly, she flat out says pre-time skip (I think either during post-Gronder celebration or before the ball?) that Byleth is the reason she can even leave her room for a bit every day (which in both BE paths she does post-skip where in other paths she remains a shut-in). She'll go where he/she goes, or she'll stay home.

 

@Seazas: I think you're overestimating the idea of betrayal the BEs feel in CF. In the Holy Tomb they get the bomb dropped on them and are severely confused, but they've had the opportunity to bond with Edelgard by then, so they swing based on Byleth's decision because given the confusion they run on instinct and follow the Professor that has led them to victory again and again. In CF this means they go with Edelgard and find she genuinely does value their friendship and didn't want to fight them. In SS this means she runs off without explanation so they're left doubting as per your argument of "were our bonds even genuine?" This is why the Holy Tomb decision is so critical for the students: because in one path Edelgard gets the chance to explain that yes, she is their friend but she had to make hard choices as Empress and in the other they never get that explanation

Okay but even in Crimson Flower, Edelgard barely explains anything to them. We're expected to believe them randomly jumping on board and going all "water under the bridge" for everything without question is so fucking dumb. I find them in SS slightly more sensible than CF. We get to explore different sides of their characters meanwhile in CF they don't say or do much.

Edited by Seazas

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