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KelluPato

What do you think of locked spell lists?

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As we know in previous Fire Emblem games, spells and staves have (mostly) been free to use by everyone as long as you were in a class that could use them, and you had the proper weapon ranks.  It was a pleasant surprise to see that in Three Houses, spell lists were returning from SoV/Gaiden.  However, I did not like it so much as you were not given as much freedom with things like warpers, warders, and physic-ers.  In a game where you can have inherent freedom with class choices, it at the same time screws over characters with poor spell lists, and makes them less viable in any of the spell-casting classes.  It also doesn’t help that only 3 characters in the game learn dark magic, and  only two of which can utilize the “dark magic uses x2” skill on the gremory class, else the skill is wasted on literally every other female character.  Even though it adds utility and singularity to each character, it makes some characters innately better than others in certain aspects, and it also limits the freedom the game so promised.  You can also save money on monthly staff/spell books, but 5 heals/4 thunders per map in the early game is not very fun.  It makes it harder to raise your spell units levels (especially on harder difficulties) without feeding them enemies whose health is at 1 (bc that’s how much damage Dorothea does with a sword lol aaaaaaaa)

 I would not like to see spell lists returning in future Fire Emblem games, but what do you all think?

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cool, but i have my issues with it

for me, it makes mages feel so much more limited than the "equippable tomes" system, and in a game which offers so many options as 3H, i feel this "locked spells" system is so out of place

i'd love to see tomes back, with genealogy's magic triangle

Edited by Yexin

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Hate it. If they don't want everyone to have trivial access to some supposed "optimal" spell list, well, for one, balance the spells better. For two, just put them behind some class masteries or something so you might have to master, say, priest to get Physic and put something equally enticing to your nukers behind (Dark) Mage.

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I think its really fun because you can unlock new spells, mid-battle.  Level 2 Mercedes ran out of fire uses, but then hit rank D+ faith (unlocking nosferatu)!  Three Houses feels fresh and I like it.

Edited by kremelover
Correction

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I really like it. It makes every Mage a little different with different utility, especially later in the game.

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I like locked spells, as it helps make characters more distinct.

 

But they also really need to make sure all spell lists are complete. None of this 2-3 spell nonsense. 5 spells for every character in both magic lines, please.

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I like it, mostly because I like mages. Having each of them function differently and having replenishable spells really makes me welcome them even more. And totally not because their range can be increased to up to 5

That said, I think there are still merits for having tomes as exchangeable items like in most other games. One problem mages have is that spells have rather low durability, which introduces slight problems in longer battles like the final chapters.

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I like it a lot. It gives every magic unit their own feel and unique touch, which I really like. I hope they will continue to to use this magic system in the future games. 

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I like the idea of everyone having different innate magics and having access to different spells based on it. I think it's really interesting especially with how certain spells react to different personalities. That being said, I can understand why some people prefer the tomes. I do think this was required to keep magic from being too overwhelming though.

In earlier games, magic has always been limited by class and that helps keep magic users from being too overwhelming. Because magic can cover a huge distance and attack/counter from 1/2 ranges, which is usually the most common type of attack distance aside from long range magic and bows. If magic was treated like it was in earlier Fire Emblems and attached to tomes when combined with the Three Houses thing of every house being able to use every weapon, I can see the game becoming even easier than it already is. Wyvern Rider is already pretty broken; imagine it with magic on top. It's almost amazingly terrifying with how effective it can be.

I would like to see the innate magic showing up in later titles, but I wouldn't mind seeing a return to tomes if it fits the gameplay better. It really all depends on the story the writers want to tell.

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1 hour ago, SimplyUnknown said:

I like the idea of everyone having different innate magics and having access to different spells based on it. I think it's really interesting especially with how certain spells react to different personalities. That being said, I can understand why some people prefer the tomes. I do think this was required to keep magic from being too overwhelming though.

In earlier games, magic has always been limited by class and that helps keep magic users from being too overwhelming. Because magic can cover a huge distance and attack/counter from 1/2 ranges, which is usually the most common type of attack distance aside from long range magic and bows. If magic was treated like it was in earlier Fire Emblems and attached to tomes when combined with the Three Houses thing of every house being able to use every weapon, I can see the game becoming even easier than it already is. Wyvern Rider is already pretty broken; imagine it with magic on top. It's almost amazingly terrifying with how effective it can be.

I would like to see the innate magic showing up in later titles, but I wouldn't mind seeing a return to tomes if it fits the gameplay better. It really all depends on the story the writers want to tell.

You could still have tomes and restrict their use to magic classes though.

---

I personally like it quite a bit. The system as it is now encourages making use of your spells due to them refreshing after every battle, where earlier games encouraged keeping rare staves like Physic and Rescue around for when you really needed them (which might never happen). The limited uses per battle balance this high availability out, and the personalized spell lists have the same effect. Imagine every single magic user having access to Warp.

That said, I do remember someone here proposing sort of a middle ground a while back, with certain spells being tied to classes (i.e. mastering Mage gives you the Fire spell permanently) and others being locked to certain characters (so Linhardt would always learn Physic at Faith C). I think that approach is even better than what we have now.

Edited by Elephantus

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The magic system in Three Houses is really fun for similar reasons as in Shadows of Valentia.  Every character having different spell lists gives each of them a bit of personal flair. Its way more fun here though since every character can become a mage from the start. My only issue with this system is that Magic and Attack are separate stats, so most physical characters can't easily go into magic classes and vice versa. 

Even though not every characters' spell list is equal, there are a fair amount of units that make for fun alternatives to the typical mages / healers in your class. Ignatz and Ingrid, for example, have decent Magic and Speed growths, get really decent high crit spells in Blizzard and Fimbulvetr and eventually get Physic.

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12 minutes ago, FoxyGrandpa said:

The magic system in Three Houses is really fun for similar reasons as in Shadows of Valentia.  Every character having different spell lists gives each of them a bit of personal flair. Its way more fun here though since every character can become a mage from the start. My only issue with this system is that Magic and Attack are separate stats, so most physical characters can't easily go into magic classes and vice versa. 

Even though not every characters' spell list is equal, there are a fair amount of units that make for fun alternatives to the typical mages / healers in your class. Ignatz and Ingrid, for example, have decent Magic and Speed growths, get really decent high crit spells in Blizzard and Fimbulvetr and eventually get Physic.

I'd argue that SoV's system is even more fun than this one, with the only limitation on spells being HP cost (which is easily played around). I can see why they had to change that, but I won't deny I miss it.

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Personal spell lists are great, if you view them like personal combat arts (Swift Strikes, Soulblade, etc.). Ways to let certain units perform uniquely. At the same time, though, it sucks for units whose spell lists are lacking.

My ideal would be a system where personal spell lists are retained (but you're limited in how many you can bring per map, like combat arts), but some spells are acquired through class mastery (Recover from Priest, Miasma from Dark Mage, for example), and more classes have class skills that grant a spell (Mage already has Fire, so give Walock Bolganone and Mortal Savant Ragnarok).

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I like the current system, but would like to see the "master a Class = learn a bonus spell" idea people have mentioned here implemented some day. Also,

5 hours ago, KelluPato said:

It also doesn’t help that only 3 characters in the game learn dark magic, and  only two of which can utilize the “dark magic uses x2” skill on the gremory class, else the skill is wasted on literally every other female character.

This. This so, so much. I don't get why Dark Magic had to be its own thing when it's so niche; making Miasma, Dark Spikes et al. another branch of Black Magic would have made things much simpler and reduced the number of Skills needed too, since it's not just Gremory that suffers from having to account for both types of Magic.

Edited by DefyingFates

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Like it and hate it.

I love that each character gets access to different spells.

I hate that some get like 5 spells and some get like 2.

Hated the faith spell list, outside Nosferatu, hardly anyone gets another attack spell.

Solutions:

Give extra access to spells for classes and if mastered can transfer them over via weapon art slot

Let everyone get 4 or 5 instead of 2.

1-3 healing spells rest attack In faith branch for every character, it's bad

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I love how it makes magic users different. For example, Sylvain would have been useless in my BL only run had it not been for him being the second physic user besides Mercedes.

This means it will be unfair to some units not to have the best spells, but I feel this is a worthy trade-off for variability, otherwise all units will become just stats sticks. Plus it's fun trying to make your favourite unit viable.

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2 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

This. This so, so much. I don't get why Dark Magic had to be its own thing when it's so niche; making Miasma, Dark Spikes et al. another branch of Black Magic would have made things much simpler and reduced the number of Skills needed too, since it's not just Gremory that suffers from having to account for both types of Magic.

Minor spoilers:

Spoiler

Given that Dark Magic is used only by Those Who Slither, two people who've had Crest experiments conducted by TWS on them, and a close retainer of one of those who works with TWS on some level, I guess it must have been on purpose.

 

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3 hours ago, Elephantus said:

 Imagine every single magic user having access to Warp.
 

But warp staves would be locked through weapon rank and would still be expensive/valuable though...

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22 minutes ago, KelluPato said:

But warp staves would be locked through weapon rank and would still be expensive/valuable though...

Fair enough. I was thinking with the system as it is now, with spells recharging after every battle.

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I like the system and I think it makes different characters feel more unique, but I do think it could use a few tweaks:

  1. Add tomes which allow a unit to use a spell not on their normal spell list. These could be either durability-limited, or single-use and they permanently teach the spell to that unit.
  2. Add the ability to learn certain spells permanently with class mastery. It's silly that most characters can only use Dark Magic (and only Miasma) if they're in the Dark Mage/Bishop classes. I could see something like: Dark Mage teaches Miasma, Dark Bishop teaches Luna, Bishop teaches Physic, etc.

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1 hour ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Minor spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Given that Dark Magic is used only by Those Who Slither, two people who've had Crest experiments conducted by TWS on them, and a close retainer of one of those who works with TWS on some level, I guess it must have been on purpose.

 

Huh. Good point which makes a lot of sense now that I think about it, thanks!

It's still annoying from a mechanical perspective though - and I'm sure the narrative effect would still be intact (if a little muted) if Dark and Black Magics were the same thing: after all, Luna et al would still be exclusive to just three people. Even merging the Dark/ Black Skills into "Reasonfaire/ Reason + 1/ etc." would have made things much simpler and narratively consistent.

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Loved it. Just because some things (the class system) are completely customizable doesn't mean everything should be that way. To me it makes more sense with how they made the game. A person SHOULD be able to wield every weapon, regardless of class. Hence the open weapon system makes sense. But if magic is inherent (like crests), it makes a lot of sense that people would naturally learn different magic skills.

Spoiler

Not to mention blood could apparently pass on both magic and crests--hence the experiments on Lysithea and Edelgard.

It's why I liked that characters had strengths and weaknesses when it came to weapons (like in real-life). If any change, I would make it maybe where certain (advanced/master) classes maybe learn a spell upon mastery. Like Bishop learns Psychic (and for those characters who naturally learn Psychic - they just get a permanent boost to the number of times they can use it). But honestly I liked it the way it was, so no changes for me were necessary, except allowing all classes to wield magic, because it's a weird thing to limit considering base classes allowed everyone the ability to use magic.

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i have mixxed feelings on it.  one hand i love that magic is locked to diffrent people  as it makes each character as a mage diffrent but i am not a big fan of the limitation of some mages. like for exsample i feel when teaching magic to students and staff alike they should always recieve some sort of magical upgrade every rank. lets compare say Hanneman and Manuela for exsample. Hanneman can learn 5 spells while Manuela can only learn 3 for reason  in terms of faith Hanneman can learn 4 spells while Manuela can learn 5 . what i would of liked to see for exsample in Manuelas case is when she reached B rank and A+ rank in reason she gained pre exsisting upgrades to her basic magic (could be B rank thunder becomes thunder + which has a couple extra uses or deals 1 more point of damage or something a show that its been upgraded though mastery) and then the same with either bolting, thunder (another upgrade to thunder making it Thunder++) or Bolganone . Meanwhile in Faith hannaman could get a upgrade to Heal or Nosferatu at A+ rank of Faith. at least this way the big mages are still gonna be the big mages because they learn more varied magic. more unqiue magics and the strong spells but those who cant learn as many unqiue spells can master what they know and improve though learning magic that way

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