Seafarer Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 7 hours ago, starburst said: I will tell you what is senseless: We both agree on Xander’s being a good unit. But between you and I, I am the only one who have used him without Siegfried and who has replaced him by other units on multiple campaigns. Therefore, you may give me the benefit of the doubt and trust my word when I say that he does not shine without Siegfried and that he can be replaced in Hard and Lunatic without issues. Or you can try it for yourself and come back with your own conclusions. Otherwise it is my experience across many campaigns against just your suppositions and ideas. And I am at a clear disadvantage for it is way more difficult to prove something than it is to doubt it. Using Xander without Siegfried is pointless, though. It's not a resource that can be allocated elsewhere; it's something only he can use. It's like saying Lewyn isn't as good as people say because he's comparable to other units if you take Forseti off him (i dont know if he is this is just an analogy). Taking away something that makes Xander good in order to declare him lesser than another option isn't intellectually honest. I like Spear Master Hinoka. Master Ninja Xander has also done well for me, though it requires A+ Kaze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starburst Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said: Barring the three [Bererkers] in his join chapter, the other nine in standard maps all double the average level 20 Xander with a speedwing, and even with his high defense this means he dies to two enemy attacks as long as one is melee and capable of doubling, which puts him in the same numbers of enemies needed to kill him as many faster, but frailer, units and as long as those faster units have swords they probably dodge better than Xander and have a higher survival chance [...] That sword makes him an fine unit, but he needs some extra speed [...] to really be a top tier unit like everyone acts. I like your detailed posts, mate. You put the numbers to situations that many of us identify and have experienced but miss the notes at hand to back them up. Unfortunately for this discussion, they do not seem to have the maths nor the experience to counter you. They will repeat what they heard or say what they believe happens, without having analysed it. 5 hours ago, Seafarer said: Using Xander without Siegfried is pointless, though. It's not a resource that can be allocated elsewhere; it's something only he can use [...] Taking away something that makes Xander good in order to declare him lesser than another option isn't intellectually honest. Fair enough. I have used Xander without Siegfried because completing the game (on Hard and Lunatic) was already a given. They were challenges. In the same vein, I have also completed the game with Lucina and Ike without ever using their personal weapons, to see what I think is a fairer comparison to the units that I normally use. And what about replacing Xander and Siegfried with other units and still completing the game without issues? Are you also going to argue that ignoring Xander and Siegfried is not "intellectually honest" because of how useful they can be? Note that in all of these cases I was using a ten units party with no "backpacks", no grinding, no Internet, no nothing. Will you disregard my opinions because using a smaller party implies ignoring resources? 12 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said: In case you are curious I stumbled upon a Lunatic Conquest 0% growth, clear all enemies run Interesting! I will check their approaches to the late chapters. Matching the defensive and attacking thresholds is going to be fun. Edition: I checked some chapters for their preparations and thresholds-reaching, but by Chapter 17 it already demanded quite an effort to watch. It took them 2 h 20 m (287 turns) just to reach Kotaro, and another 25 m (48 more turns [335 in total]) to kill him. And from Chapter 20 onwards, it takes them between 2 h 30 m and over 3 h to complete each chapter. It does show great AI manipulation and use of stacking bonuses through rallies, pair-ups, auras, tonics, skills... A 0 % growths Wyvern Lord Camilla with Vantage, Trample and Life or Death plus a dedicated Berseker pair-up and rallies is a one-shooting machine to admire. The campaign also shows an odd version of "low manning", for they do field as many units as possible (plus Replicates) but concentrate all the attack and defence in only a couple of units. As a thrilling plus, I have yet to see them heal a single unit. Poser! Completing such an extremely difficult challenge is an accomplishment to behold, I give them that, it is just not the kind of fun that I am looking for playing. I will fast-forward Ch 25, Ch 26 and specially Endgame. I still do not know how they managed to meet the thresholds. 😱 Edited October 13, 2019 by starburst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flere210 Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Seafarer said: Using Xander without Siegfried is pointless, though. It's not a resource that can be allocated elsewhere; it's something only he can use. It's like saying Lewyn isn't as good as people say because he's comparable to other units if you take Forseti off him (i dont know if he is this is just an analogy). Taking away something that makes Xander good in order to declare him lesser than another option isn't intellectually honest. I like Spear Master Hinoka. Master Ninja Xander has also done well for me, though it requires A+ Kaze. Not that good of a comparisson because fe4 is so horse centered that even whit forseti he is not top tier. A better comparisson would be keeping Seliph dismounted and then claming he is not better than Larcei and Ulster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said: If Xander had more speed he would match well against Berserkers, as barring the three in his join chapter, the other nine in standard maps all double the average level 20 Xander with a speedwing, and even with his high defense this means he dies to two enemy attacks as long as one is melee and capable of doubling, which puts him in the same numbers of enemies needed to kill him as many faster, but frailer, units and as long as those faster units have swords they probably dodge better than Xander and have a higher survival chance. With that low speed he will have a hard time killing without a lot of help (although to be fair he has enough strength to make for a good attack stance unit, although GK Effie does it better). That sword makes him an fine unit, but he needs some extra speed like Okay then - how would you deal with Berserkers, knowing that a crit certainly means a reset? Dodging isn't really something you can rely on - which I'm sure you found out the hard way. Edited October 13, 2019 by Shadow Mir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafarer Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 8 hours ago, starburst said: Fair enough. I have used Xander without Siegfried because completing the game (on Hard and Lunatic) was already a given. They were challenges. In the same vein, I have also completed the game with Lucina and Ike without ever using their personal weapons, to see what I think is a fairer comparison to the units that I normally use. And what about replacing Xander and Siegfried with other units and still completing the game without issues? Are you also going to argue that ignoring Xander and Siegfried is not "intellectually honest" because of how useful they can be? Note that in all of these cases I was using a ten units party with no "backpacks", no grinding, no Internet, no nothing. Will you disregard my opinions because using a smaller party implies ignoring resources? ...now you're being intellectually dishonest by putting words in my mouth. I'm not arguing that Silas and Sophie are bad, or that Xander is necessary to beat the game, or that you're playing the game wrong, or even that Xander is good. I said that saying Silas is better than Xander while handicapping Xander by denying him a resource that nobody else competes for is unfair to Xander. @Flere210 The point is more that it's a comparison between units with similar roles (so Lewyn vs. other infantry mages : Xander vs. other cavalry). I guess I wasn't clear on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starburst Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) On 10/13/2019 at 4:49 PM, Seafarer said: ...now you're being intellectually dishonest by putting words in my mouth. I'm not arguing that Silas and Sophie are bad, or that Xander is necessary to beat the game, or that you're playing the game wrong, or even that Xander is good. I said that saying Silas is better than Xander while handicapping Xander by denying him a resource that nobody else competes for is unfair to Xander. Let us see. This was my original message: On 9/30/2019 at 5:44 PM, starburst said: Xander and Ryoma are not stellar units, it is their weapons what breaks the game. Send Siegfried to the convoy and Xander is just a worse Silas in every aspect. The last affirmation is what troubles you. Because, for you, Xander and Siegfried are inseparable, one and the same. And I understand the logic behind it, although I do not agree with it. Not only because it is perfectly possible to send Siegfried to the convoy (in my case, as a game-breaking countermeasure), but also because it is not at all far-fetched to re-class Xander into a class that does not use swords, like his secondary class tree, which he has access to from his very first turn. Now, if your argument is that giving up on Siegfried is not efficient, I understand it too. But then using Siegfried would be a conscious decision, a choice, and not the inseparable entity Xander - Siegfried. Let us say that Xander and Sigfried are indeed one inseparable entity. Even then, he joins in Chapter 16, which means that for the past ten chapters you used another unit as a front-liner (if he is not a front-liner, he compares even worse, for the number of better Player Phase units is way bigger.) And we come to this: On 10/12/2019 at 8:45 AM, starburst said: Xander joins late, meaning that his role in the party must be fulfilled by others during the previous ten chapters. And that is more than enough time for these units to level-up and gain weapon levels and class-change and learn diverse skills and get supports and marry and raise & class-change kids. This is true for any unit used for that role, be it Cornflakes, Silas, Effie, Horse Jakob, Camilla... (The exception being a unit without supports, like Ike.) Will Xander - Siegfried perform better than a front-liner used during the previous ten chapters? It depends, but probably, yes. Now, will Xander - Siegfried perform better than a front-liner used during the previous ten chapters plus their promoted child plus the class tree options and bonuses opened by their supports? No, I do not think so. I know, you will argue that comparing everything that a unit contributes to the party to Xander - Siegfried is not fair, for not everyone plays in the same way, but then we are back to square one. Since any of those units always give me all those options and resources by Chapter 16, then I compare it all to Xander - Siegfried. Availability matters. Could I simply add Xander - Siegfried to the roster, or use him to replace a front-liner with worse 1-2 range and who has got worse defensive statistics? Sure. Yet that does not translate into automatically ranking Xander - Siegfried above them. Depending on the party conformation, Xander - Siegfried's contributions by the end of the campaign may be smaller, bigger or equal than those from the other unit in question. Edited October 14, 2019 by starburst Format and structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeAreNewcastle1053 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 10 hours ago, starburst said: This is true for any unit used for that role, be it Cornflakes, Silas, Effie, Horse Jakob, Camilla... Corrinflakes... LMAO!!! Also, what's this topic about again? I hate to sound like an admin when I'm not... but I think we may need to get back on track instead of arguing why Xander is useless without his divine weapon. I bet you, Mozu's a BIG candidate for this thread. Why isn't this about her and not about Xander??? You know, Azura gets a massive boost out of Dread Fighter IMO. Songstress is incredibly weak and does nothing but allow Azura to give our units extra turns. Although she, along with Sakura, have high Str growths, I believe this is only to counter their shitty base Strength no thanks to their classes. But Azura's HP and Defence really suck, along with the base growths. In one playthrough I gave her Falcon Knight... which is a BAD idea because it does not improve HP OR Defence and basically every physical attack will wreck her ass. And yeah, it's REAL messed up that she can't support with any girls other than Hinoka, Sakura and Elise, which means if you marry her off to the wrong person (like I have), then you've basically painted yourself into a corner regarding her because now she has no access to defence OR HP-orientated classes that can cover her weaknesses! Honestly it would've been great to have her support with Camilla or maybe even Oboro/Rinkah for those sweet, sweet class changes! (Oni Chieftain Azura would've been great! If only I didn't have to make a Male Corrin and marry her just to give her that class...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted October 15, 2019 Author Share Posted October 15, 2019 I've just begun a run with Azamaswife, my +mag -lck avatar, she gave Azama her Wyvern talent just after he reached lv 19 (my party was lv 11-14 except him and my lv 15 Setsuna, which makes my point in another topic true: healers really outclass every combat unit at gaining exp fast), he's already by far my best unit: Azama lv 1 Malig Knight: 33 HP, 24+2 str, 13 mag, 14 skl, 19 spd, 17 lck, 23 def, 16 res, with 7 or 8 levels of aptitude (from level 12 or 13, he was a monk until lv 19 so only 1 level up as a wyvern rider). He singlehandedly crushes both CQ! Camilla: +3 HP, +5 str, +2 mag, -1 skl, equal spd, +5 lck, +5 def, +1 res. None of my units have gotten any stat booster, not even for one battle use. He completely laughs at Xander because he has these stats on a flying mount, with access to physical and magical damage and to 2 good weapon types (is there a Bolt Axe in Birthright?), and he's got: -5 HP, -1 strength (+2 so +1 in the end), +9 mag (useful on him), -4 skl, +4 spd (which Xander needs a speedwings and Charlottserker backpack to barely surpass reach, 3 levels higher), -3 luck (doesn't really matter), same def before bullshitfried, +5 res (which matters A LOT), and he's got 3 level ups to achieve to reach Xander's level so we'll see how much he can laugh at Xander at the same level. That's not even counting the ennemy power difference between BR and CQ and the BR ennemies being generally slower than CQ since Hoshido is full of speedsters playing The Flash whie Nohr is full of slow Panzer playing World of Tanks, with a majority of def focused classes, implying the 9 magic advantage for Azama is gonna rock compared to the equal strength of Xander, Siegfried and his non existent base speed for his level (with a shaky 45% growth that leads Seth to often not get speed for 3-4 levels in TSS each game I play him, meaning for Xander it's a literal death wish to be so slow and stay this way). He also laughs at Ryoma, because he's got: -3 HP, +4+2 str (still +2 with Raijinto), +11 magic, -4 skl (LOL at a swordsmaster being as skilled as...a paladin, which is supposed to be a generalist class against swordmaster's specialized stat spread), -5 spd (doesn't matter since horse spirit will come when the speed could be needed and let him reach -2 spd compared with Ryoma, not even considering the 3 level ups he has to gain to reach Ryoma's level), -3 luck, a whole +7 def (+8 since katanas lower it by 1), +3 res (+4 for the same reason as def), and horse spirit will get Azama to immortal god level. Azama doesn't relie on dodging to tank, but on his sheer insane tank stats, nearly as insane as Benny's but with better everything else but skill and samey luck as Benny and actual speed. With a 1-2 axe he has 14 effective speed, with horse spirit he'll have 22 and nearly match Ryoma/Xander's skill with his lv 1 stats alone. Even without aptitude guys, just remove 0.7 or 0.8 from all his stats he's still a god. The only thing he lacks is...a useful personal skill. I didn't count elbow room for Xander, sorry, but it doesn't change the difference of doubling most ennemies and not doubling anyone between Azama and Xander. A unit I've found much better than I expected is Setsuna. No reclass, just an oni chieftain Hayato backpack and yumis (I forge them for the LULZ, but she OS hard ninjas in chapter 10 with a +1 iron yumi and her backpack with 1 extra damage being overkill, which means it also works with an oni savage Hayato or a blacksmith Hayato backpack), I think she had 10 strength (since now level 18 she has 11 LOL). with her LOL+1 silver yumi she could kill 3 pegasi in 1 hit, 2 malig knights/wyvern lords, reaching around 66 damage on the latter. Useless to say boat chapter I was LMAO, with my: Subaki+Oboro class swap! Because Oboro has enough speed to double with pegasus, darting blow and a raider naginata, while Subaki has LOL19def at level 15 (he gained 1 level in the boat chapter, he was at 18 before), so 23-24 with guard naginata (useless to say anything but the Malig knight couldn't even tickle him, just a flat 0 on him, and even with a dual naginata/Subaki's pyke/silver naginata, he took 1 damage from the strongest ennemies with steel (not counting wyverns since they were already dead outside the boss). Subaki after 2 level ups in spear fighter: lv 15: 27 HP, 13 str, 4 mag, 21 skl!, 11 spd, 9 lck, 19+1 def from naginata, 9+1 res from naginata. In the arena he doesn't take much damage except from annoying diviners, but arena is bulls (ennemies have much more damage than story ennemies, and I've seen an ONI SAVAGE double my 10 spd Hayato when he was like level 6-10, sure a 15 spd oni savage at this level... when I call cheat...not joking). Oboro after 2 levels in pegasus: lv 15: 25 HP, 12 str, 2 mag, 12 skl, 13 spd, 15 lck, 12+1 def, 13+1 res from naginata. More balanced between def and res, slightly more spd. But seriously, having 40% base in everything not HP and res, she's completely prone to RNG screwing, I've legit gotten 2-3 stat increases in her 3 first level ups, another 2 stats from the first pegasus level up. That's 7 stats in 3 level ups, tht's what Mozu gains in her first 1.5 level up(s) as an archer or DF. But as I thought, darting blow is a big help on her. Oni savage Hayato: I didn't check the GR, but mine gained like 8 points in def in 10 or 11 level ups (10 def at base oni, now 21 lv 1 chieftain, promoted lv 11 or 12). But he got completely str screwed, which is weird with Oni savage. He sits at 12 str (vs 11+2 mag), 12 spd, 13 lck, 11 res. If I had let him a chance to be more than a backpack, I think he'd be even tankier than Azama in def, while better than he is now in res, though I doubt he'd have gained 5 res in the remaining 8-9 lvls to 20 to equal Azama's godliness. I suppose Mechanist Reina would be far better than the trash that Kinshi's stats and growths mean to her long term usability, with more def, str, maybe more skl, res, and far more HP I guess. She doesn't even care about naginatas, her only gimmick is being a flying bow user with high str and spd and falling down due to not having reliable GR in anything, even her best stats are shaky (seeing how my Setsuna's 75 GR made her gain 7 points in 15 lvl ups, I don't want to see how a pre-promote with lesser exp growth will do with 60% spd, which is precisely Chrom's spd GR and lead mine to get speed screwed like 1/3 of the time I play him, once he had 12 spd until level 15 or so it was awful, guess what happens when the same happens to your 4% exp per kill unit that doesn't want to gain spd or str for 3-4 levels in a row...well, it becomes useless once ennemies have relevant stats, like the indoor chapter around 16-18 with a general that has around 40 damage and 24-30 def I don't remember, and that simply kills you in 1-2 attacks with a javelin. Reina dies in 1 hit from it if she doesn't get 2 def lv ups with a bow/yumi to reduce lance damage by 1, or maybe 1 since I didn't take into count the + damage from weapon rank he should loose because of WTD). The best use I've found yet for Cornflakes is being a support unit. He/she is vulnerable to dragon effective weaponry forever, he/she is only better than anyone else in a magic class, and only because every magic unit this time is a gimmick on its' own. In physical classes, Cornflakes is simply worse than one or several units in the same class until he/she get access to the yato stat boosts, which is half into the game and only +2 to 2/3 stats (CQ favoring Corn is insane, BR only gives str and spd while CQ gives str, def and res, none give magic or skl). The final Yato is even more LMAO material since it's up for what, 1 chapter out of 27? shoudn't even get an upgrade if it's only for 1 chapter, it's a silly joke, just make something better for Corrin, or make Yato a magic sword, to actually have something different from a +6/7 iron katana only less accurate, that only needs to be in the inventory to be of any use anyway. Compared with Falchion (dragon killer with unlimited uses), Xeno Falchion (better dragon killer with a double potion in), awakened Falchion (legit legendary weapon with legendary damage and still dragon killer 3.0), rapier, Siegmund/Sieglinde (monster killer with 16 MT and +5 str, meaning at base Eirika would have 25 MT with it, 27 if promoted (or is it 28?)), Wolf Beil, Reginleif, Alondite, Ragnell...well any previous game personal (/key character) weapon worth mentioning, and being worse than the big bros' awakened weapon while you're the commander of the army, thus I think Yato is TOTALLY overrated. Just a minor stat stick to have around, but seriously, I don't even use it before first awakening, and I don't think I'll really use it over, say, a dragonstone...which is the only good weapon avatar's family only can get, even then it's a joke compared with Siegfried. Thus avatar's stats being worse than units in the class s.he goes into and having less weapon ranks in said class most of the time, lesser growths (too spread to be good), base class' base stats as his/her base stats (instead of +5 def here, +2 str there, +6 spd the other way etc.), implying really, avatar is not useful at anything by reclassing, and the loss of dragonstone makes him/her instantly worse than dragonstone spam until promotion. When people tell me they send Corrin to witch in CQ, I just wanna ask, and wh's gonna tank the ennemies comng from the 3rd direction/in the 3rd area if your only tank other than Silas and Effie is now a magic glass cannon, and who's gonna heal if Jakob goes paladin/GK? just give Corrin a random support build from my castle, activate VoF on Silas and let him be better than everything Corrin could be, except Silas is far from doubling anything with his garbo speed and shaky defence doesn't help him long term if he get RNG screwed, or short term if his 4 early level ups don't get you more than 1 point of def and res. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltosian Kadath Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 On 10/13/2019 at 7:41 AM, Shadow Mir said: Okay then - how would you deal with Berserkers, knowing that a crit certainly means a reset? Dodging isn't really something you can rely on - which I'm sure you found out the hard way. The simplest answer is don't tank them, arrange a player phase to kill all of them, which isn't Xanders forte (tanking is), but if I had to tank them alone here are a few options. Dark Knight Odin with a Horse Spirit can take a round against a silver and Tomahawk, and still have health (plus deals more counter damage than Xander due to enemy armor blow) although he fares just as well against the one with the Hero's axe, and while he isn't doubled and killed by Hans, he does have to face a higher crit than Xander does (and even Xander has to face crit from Hans), although he does have to face a ~6% crit from the silver without any help, it should still have better survivability odds overall, as he doesn't have to dodge a hit to tank a melee and ranged Berserker. Hero Selena with axe breaker can reach high enough avoid that even when frozen only the Silvers (and she can take one of those, with a bronze sword to face ~2% crit even), or one of the reinforcements with certain blow will try to attack her and if she is allowed to take a sunrise katana out of the rewards box, then only those with certain blow will have enough accuracy that the AI will try, all of which makes for a solid option for "tanking" the initial onslaught. You don't want to tank Hans, the only way to do so reliably alone is the average 20/20 General Benny with a dual naginata from the reward box, while sitting on a stair for the natural cover boost (he should live the crit with 3 health), everyone else has to face at least one hit with a crit rate in the mid 20s to late 50s that kills . Finally to bring this back around to topic at hand, you could just do the simple thing that fixes Xander's giant glaring weakness, you give him a good speed pairup (Berserker Charlotte is the cliche, and for good reason, but there are other options that will work). I suspect that pairing him with someone good is what made him a good Berserker counter in your runs, despite claims that he was still that good, even if you Quote don't give Xander any of that, The extra stats and surviability of pairup greatly increases your options of how to tank Berserkers plus with more creative build or lucky levels (as I have been considering just base kits and average stats to keep things fair) the use of support abilities like inspiration, supportive, demoiselle/gentilholm, lily poise, rallies, etc. you can push plenty of units into survivability range. That being said tanking a round alone has one huge advantage, you can then have a unit adjacent to let whomever was frozen pair with, and escape the range of the freeze staff. 17 hours ago, WeAreNewcastle1053 said: You know, Azura gets a massive boost out of Dread Fighter IMO. Songstress is incredibly weak and does nothing but allow Azura to give our units extra turns. Although she, along with Sakura, have high Str growths, I believe this is only to counter their shitty base Strength no thanks to their classes. But Azura's HP and Defence really suck, along with the base growths. In one playthrough I gave her Falcon Knight... which is a BAD idea because it does not improve HP OR Defence and basically every physical attack will wreck her ass. I don't know why anyone would want to give up the ability to dance, but if you really wanted to Great Knight is what I would go with. It makes her far less squishy, and she can still dish out solid damage. You can grab that easily enough with a Silas marriage on any route. The main reason to go Falcon Knight is to grab Rally Speed on Conquest, but it would be better to grab that on one of the children (or Selena), as dancing opens ups so many tactical options. As for Azama, I got good use of the Falcon Knight Azama from my Revelations PMU, and barring a bit higher defense, he was close to average stats, so that is a good option, although his personal ability is useless, unless you have him a dedicated flying healer, which is a waste of his talents. 46 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said: The best use I've found yet for Cornflakes is being a support unit. He/she is vulnerable to dragon effective weaponry forever, he/she is only better than anyone else in a magic class, and only because every magic unit this time is a gimmick on its' own. In physical classes, Cornflakes is simply worse than one or several units in the same class until he/she get access to the yato stat boosts, which is half into the game and only +2 to 2/3 stats (CQ favoring Corn is insane, BR only gives str and spd while CQ gives str, def and res, none give magic or skl). The final Yato is even more LMAO material since it's up for what, 1 chapter out of 27? shoudn't even get an upgrade if it's only for 1 chapter, it's a silly joke, just make something better for Corrin, or make Yato a magic sword, to actually have something different from a +6/7 iron katana only less accurate, that only needs to be in the inventory to be of any use anyway. Compared with Falchion (dragon killer with unlimited uses), Xeno Falchion (better dragon killer with a double potion in), awakened Falchion (legit legendary weapon with legendary damage and still dragon killer 3.0), rapier, Siegmund/Sieglinde (monster killer with 16 MT and +5 str, meaning at base Eirika would have 25 MT with it, 27 if promoted (or is it 28?)), Wolf Beil, Reginleif, Alondite, Ragnell...well any previous game personal (/key character) weapon worth mentioning, and being worse than the big bros' awakened weapon while you're the commander of the army, thus I think Yato is TOTALLY overrated. Just a minor stat stick to have around, but seriously, I don't even use it before first awakening, and I don't think I'll really use it over, say, a dragonstone...which is the only good weapon avatar's family only can get, even then it's a joke compared with Siegfried. Thus avatar's stats being worse than units in the class s.he goes into and having less weapon ranks in said class most of the time, lesser growths (too spread to be good), base class' base stats as his/her base stats (instead of +5 def here, +2 str there, +6 spd the other way etc.), implying really, avatar is not useful at anything by reclassing, and the loss of dragonstone makes him/her instantly worse than dragonstone spam until promotion. When people tell me they send Corrin to witch in CQ, I just wanna ask, and wh's gonna tank the ennemies comng from the 3rd direction/in the 3rd area if your only tank other than Silas and Effie is now a magic glass cannon, and who's gonna heal if Jakob goes paladin/GK? just give Corrin a random support build from my castle, activate VoF on Silas and let him be better than everything Corrin could be, except Silas is far from doubling anything with his garbo speed and shaky defence doesn't help him long term if he get RNG screwed, or short term if his 4 early level ups don't get you more than 1 point of def and res. While Corrin is weak to dragon effective weapons, there are 10 in the main story, and only in two chapters (at least on Conquest) which makes it almost as rare as the final Yato stat boosts. As for claims that Corrin is worse than other physical units, that is highly boon/bane dependent, as those are how a Corrin specializes in stats. Even if true, his/her Talent lets him/her have access to some classes uncontested on a Birthright/Conquest playthrough (except by spouse and kids, which could easily be worse for the class, or prefer other classes). That being said there are some kernels of truth to this rant. Corrin has access to some excellent support abilities, her/his Personal skill especially, and Dragon Stones are excellent weapons, generally better than the Yato until the very end, when the game doesn't tell you it is better against the Dragon Skin skill than other weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starburst Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 18 hours ago, WeAreNewcastle1053 said: I bet you, Mozu's a BIG candidate for this thread. Why isn't this about her and not about Xander??? You know, Azura gets a massive boost out of Dread Fighter IMO. Songstress is incredibly weak and does nothing but allow Azura to give our units extra turns. For me, the thing about Mozu is that, once you decide to use her, she is not a subpar unit. It takes Mozilla less than ten minutes to reach Level 8 in her own chapter, which leaves her on par with her teammates (by Ch 8-9.) After one chapter she reaches Level 10 and already has better statistics than any of her teammates, including Corrinette. As a Sniper, Mozilla is a Delete Button in Conquest, and most likely your best physical Player Phase unit. She never misses, doubles everything, hits very hard and consistently delivers over forty critical hits per campaign. The quintessential boss killer. The "dilemma" of using a Heart Seal on her is non existent in my case because Jakob always ends campaigns at Level 5. That is, if he does not unexpectedly and surprisingly die in Ch 6 already. Corrinette, Elise and Arthur can wait until Ch 9 (or more) to class-change, just like Camilla can wait until Ch 13. About Azura, the pop star class is the most broken and game-changing, but let us ignore that for one second and focus only on Smurfette. With her overkill growths in key areas, you could try Sniper, or Ninja » Master Ninja, or Ninja » Dread Fighter, or Berserker. She will always be a glass cannon, thus you should better make some use of those offensive statistics. Cavalier » Great Lord may work too, but the caps are rather low for her insane growths, and it forces her to engage in more one to one combats, which she should avoid. And she does not have the "critical hand" that Berserker grants. 11 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said: The simplest answer is don't tank [Berserkers], arrange a player phase to kill all of them, which isn't Xanders forte (tanking is) [...] The answer was so basic that I thought that you would let it go. But, yeah, there is no need to tank Berserkers. And on the one occasion where there are more Berserkers than front-liners (Chapter 26), Dragon Stone +Mag Cornflakes and Hero Silas can tank them forever (or Wyvern Lord/ Hero Selena or Wyvern Lord/ Hero Sophie or whatever Velouria...) Hans and his Pillars are always gone on a single Player Phase, even with a small party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltosian Kadath Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 20 hours ago, WeAreNewcastle1053 said: Mozu's a BIG candidate for this thread. Why isn't this about her and not about Xander??? Fixing Mozu is kinda obvious for Conquest, class change her immediately, and baby her until her level catches up. Archer/Sniper is a great class if you are focusing on player phase, and the only competition she has for this class are those she passes it on to (or Corrin Talent). You can grab air superiority from Kinshi to make her even better against Hinoka's flying squad, but Sniper is where she shines. This does take a commitment of XP and a heart scale, but once she catches up she is great. Despite the free grinding, Birthright is the hardest to justify using her in, as it takes a lot for her to surpass Takumi, and his personal bow gives him a leg up as well. She has a better chance in Revelation due to an excellent join time in a game filled with numerous awful join times, unfortunately Takumi still shows up fairly early. I am not sure how to fix her on Birthright without an early Corrin marriage to grab some Nohrian or more exclusive class (for example to become a more physically offensive version of one of the Oni line). 1 hour ago, starburst said: With her overkill growths in key areas, you could try Sniper, or Ninja » Master Ninja, or Ninja » Dread Fighter, or Berserker. She will always be a glass cannon, thus you should better make some use of those offensive statistics. Cavalier » Great Lord may work too, but the caps are rather low for her insane growths, and it forces her to engage in more one to one combats, which she should avoid. And she does not have the "critical hand" that Berserker grants. That is a great point, she would make for an excellent glass cannon. I am a little skeptical of Master Ninja as she doesn't have the personal strength cap to match her growths, and that class has a particularly low strength cap, but with the debuffing it still might work. 1 hour ago, starburst said: The answer was so basic that I thought that you would let it go. But, yeah, there is no need to tank Berserkers. And on the one occasion where there are more Berserkers than front-liners (Chapter 26), Dragon Stone +Mag Cornflakes and Hero Silas can tank them forever (or Wyvern Lord/ Hero Selena or Wyvern Lord/ Hero Sophie or whatever Velouria...) Hans and his Pillars are always gone on a single Player Phase, even with a small party. It felt necessary to start with the obvious answer before going through the more interesting question of finding units that could tank them better than Xander, although I only looked at first gen units in base classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starburst Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said: That is a great point, she would make for an excellent glass cannon. I am a little skeptical of Master Ninja as she doesn't have the personal strength cap to match her growths, and that class has a particularly low strength cap, but with the debuffing it still might work. Yes, Ninja’s Strength suck, but as a Ninja, Azura plays a different role than, say, a Sniper. Sure, she can de-buff, but she also has the Resistance to tank sorcerer gangs, the Speed to double everything, and the Skill to never miss and to trigger critical hits and Lethality more often than anyone else. The lower Strength is compensated by the frailty and slowness of magicians. And never forget the Hunter’s Knife. This weapon lets her wipe any mounted enemy in the game with ease. Not even the foxes escape her killing frenzy. Also, and unlike Kaze, Azura is not forced to let the Flame Shuriken go at the garage sale (the Levin Sword would also work, but good luck achieving Sword Level C.) And if you happen to get the Sacrificial Knife, she will one-hit many more units. Her HP sucks no matter what, so, take advantage of it. HP is a lot less relevant to Player Phase units anyway. 46 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said: It felt necessary to start with the obvious answer before going through the more interesting question of finding units that could tank [Berserkers] better than Xander, although I only looked at first gen units in base classes. Berserkers have literally 0 % chance of hitting Hero Silas. It sounds good on paper, but in practice it means that all attacks are simply deferred to the other front-liner, which may not be what you planned. Edited October 16, 2019 by starburst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeAreNewcastle1053 Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 7 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said: I don't know why anyone would want to give up the ability to dance, but if you really wanted to Great Knight is what I would go with. It makes her far less squishy, and she can still dish out solid damage. You can grab that easily enough with a Silas marriage on any route. The main reason to go Falcon Knight is to grab Rally Speed on Conquest, but it would be better to grab that on one of the children (or Selena), as dancing opens ups so many tactical options. Didn't I already say in my last post that I screwed up and married her to Jackob? Also, I'd give up the ability to dance because if Azura can't last for real long, then she can't dance for anyone anymore (also taking Classic Mode into account). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted October 16, 2019 Author Share Posted October 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said: Despite the free grinding, Birthright is the hardest to justify using her in, as it takes a lot for her to surpass Takumi, and his personal bow gives him a leg up as well. I have to disagree here. Mozu is Takumi+Setsuna: she has Takumi level def, nearly Setsuna level res and her speed is close to Setsuna's, with Takumi's skill and more strength than both. Give her a silver yumi, she'll one shoot any non armored ennemy and maybe even ORKO GK. If my 11 strength Setsuna has 31 attack with a base silver yumi, not counting in +2 damage from B bows, then a 14-15 str Mozu (not even good for her standards) has 34-35, if we add quick draw it's 35 for Setsuna, 38-39 for Mozu, and if you give them oni chieftain Hayato (optimal str boost) it's 39 for Setsuna, 42-43 for Mozu. Try reaching this while doubling on anyone else with decent accuracy (that's giving up on most high strength units who mostly lack accuracy like Kagero) before promotion that is, a level 20 Mozu insta-reclassed into archer should not have less than 16 str considering 65% str growth with around 6 base, she should have 18-19 str on average, up to 21-22 if blessed. Guys, that's Ryoma-level offense, before promotion, winning WT vs lances and daggers/shuriken, neutral vs axes/yumi/bows and the dual yumi is accessible from the get go with less than 500 visit points if I'm right. With a forged silver yumi, it becomes even more gross. So yeah, Takumi is hyped, Setsuna and Mozu are way better than him because of Yumi being OP and having something resembling speed. Sorry but your lv 11 Takumi with 11 spd isn't cutting it for me. He's nothing special once you get his personal weapon's mobility out, he's just more mobile, that's all. And he doesn't get any benefit aside more movement and flying over untraversable terrain from Kinshi, loosing everything useful in his bow, and getting even worse growths than he already has, while Mozu has high enough stats to go Kinshi without saying R.I.P. and she can make good use of any lance/naginata (except Peri's but it's garbo). In fact, any fast unit is better than Takumi as an archer with yumis, because Yumi owns and owning 2x is better than owning a little more 1x. Certain blow takes care of any accuracy issue anyway, alongside the little skl+2. The only thing is you need to spam them all the time to grind their weapon rank to D, C or B depending what weapon you want them to use, if you use forges etc. since a +2 iron yumi has 13 mt 70 acc no stat penalty, while silver has 20 mt, 70 acc and but stat penalties, and steel is useless anyway since iron deals enough while retaining usable acc. On Mozu, any physical class is better on Mozu than on 80% of the cast (only Azama has her beat, mostly because he's stronger and much tankier but she wins in spd/skl), so wy not using her? Like Ryoma, she makes the game easier by using her than not. She just needs her paralogue to shine (and a pass out of villager), it's nothing punitive since your team should already gain little exp the time you reach her, while she gains a lot. And with a bronze yumi she already rocks at base, that's saying how strong yumi are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) On 10/15/2019 at 8:02 PM, Eltosian Kadath said: The simplest answer is don't tank them, arrange a player phase to kill all of them, which isn't Xanders forte (tanking is), but if I had to tank them alone here are a few options. Dark Knight Odin with a Horse Spirit can take a round against a silver and Tomahawk, and still have health (plus deals more counter damage than Xander due to enemy armor blow) although he fares just as well against the one with the Hero's axe, and while he isn't doubled and killed by Hans, he does have to face a higher crit than Xander does (and even Xander has to face crit from Hans), although he does have to face a ~6% crit from the silver without any help, it should still have better survivability odds overall, as he doesn't have to dodge a hit to tank a melee and ranged Berserker. Hero Selena with axe breaker can reach high enough avoid that even when frozen only the Silvers (and she can take one of those, with a bronze sword to face ~2% crit even), or one of the reinforcements with certain blow will try to attack her and if she is allowed to take a sunrise katana out of the rewards box, then only those with certain blow will have enough accuracy that the AI will try, all of which makes for a solid option for "tanking" the initial onslaught. You don't want to tank Hans, the only way to do so reliably alone is the average 20/20 General Benny with a dual naginata from the reward box, while sitting on a stair for the natural cover boost (he should live the crit with 3 health), everyone else has to face at least one hit with a crit rate in the mid 20s to late 50s that kills . Finally to bring this back around to topic at hand, you could just do the simple thing that fixes Xander's giant glaring weakness, you give him a good speed pairup (Berserker Charlotte is the cliche, and for good reason, but there are other options that will work). I suspect that pairing him with someone good is what made him a good Berserker counter in your runs, despite claims that he was still that good, even if you Quote don't give Xander any of that, The extra stats and surviability of pairup greatly increases your options of how to tank Berserkers plus with more creative build or lucky levels (as I have been considering just base kits and average stats to keep things fair) the use of support abilities like inspiration, supportive, demoiselle/gentilholm, lily poise, rallies, etc. you can push plenty of units into survivability range. That being said tanking a round alone has one huge advantage, you can then have a unit adjacent to let whomever was frozen pair with, and escape the range of the freeze staff. That sounds good in a vacuum, but when that room also has two maids with freeze staves and seven generals, in addition to Hans, who I tend to Entrap and kill with ranged weapons from the northern room (this causes two more Generals and Berserkers to spawn from the stairs. Luckily, the reinforcements with ranged weapons will try to attack from through walls unlike the units that are in the room to begin with), it sounds more like robbing a police station. Luring is also one thing Xander's good at, since he outruns them. That said, while retreating, I may try to have him kill the Tomahawk users on counters. Axebreaker is a level 15 skill, and with the AI being what it is, that just might cause them to attack someone else, which might not be what you wanted. Also, I'm fine with using pair up when I feel I need to do it, which is mostly to avoid enemy dual strikes or to help retreat, but I'm not going to field a unit that's only good for being a pair up bot. On 10/15/2019 at 5:55 PM, mangasdeouf said: He/she is vulnerable to dragon effective weaponry forever Which are rare, even in Conquest. On 10/16/2019 at 5:15 AM, mangasdeouf said: I have to disagree here. Mozu is Takumi+Setsuna: she has Takumi level def, nearly Setsuna level res and her speed is close to Setsuna's, with Takumi's skill and more strength than both. Give her a silver yumi, she'll one shoot any non armored ennemy and maybe even ORKO GK. If my 11 strength Setsuna has 31 attack with a base silver yumi, not counting in +2 damage from B bows, then a 14-15 str Mozu (not even good for her standards) has 34-35, if we add quick draw it's 35 for Setsuna, 38-39 for Mozu, and if you give them oni chieftain Hayato (optimal str boost) it's 39 for Setsuna, 42-43 for Mozu. Try reaching this while doubling on anyone else with decent accuracy (that's giving up on most high strength units who mostly lack accuracy like Kagero) before promotion that is, a level 20 Mozu insta-reclassed into archer should not have less than 16 str considering 65% str growth with around 6 base, she should have 18-19 str on average, up to 21-22 if blessed. Guys, that's Ryoma-level offense, before promotion, winning WT vs lances and daggers/shuriken, neutral vs axes/yumi/bows and the dual yumi is accessible from the get go with less than 500 visit points if I'm right. With a forged silver yumi, it becomes even more gross. So yeah, Takumi is hyped, Setsuna and Mozu are way better than him because of Yumi being OP and having something resembling speed. Sorry but your lv 11 Takumi with 11 spd isn't cutting it for me. He's nothing special once you get his personal weapon's mobility out, he's just more mobile, that's all. And he doesn't get any benefit aside more movement and flying over untraversable terrain from Kinshi, loosing everything useful in his bow, and getting even worse growths than he already has, while Mozu has high enough stats to go Kinshi without saying R.I.P. and she can make good use of any lance/naginata (except Peri's but it's garbo). In fact, any fast unit is better than Takumi as an archer with yumis, because Yumi owns and owning 2x is better than owning a little more 1x. Certain blow takes care of any accuracy issue anyway, alongside the little skl+2. The only thing is you need to spam them all the time to grind their weapon rank to D, C or B depending what weapon you want them to use, if you use forges etc. since a +2 iron yumi has 13 mt 70 acc no stat penalty, while silver has 20 mt, 70 acc and but stat penalties, and steel is useless anyway since iron deals enough while retaining usable acc. On Mozu, any physical class is better on Mozu than on 80% of the cast (only Azama has her beat, mostly because he's stronger and much tankier but she wins in spd/skl), so wy not using her? Like Ryoma, she makes the game easier by using her than not. She just needs her paralogue to shine (and a pass out of villager), it's nothing punitive since your team should already gain little exp the time you reach her, while she gains a lot. And with a bronze yumi she already rocks at base, that's saying how strong yumi are. I fail to see it - Mozu starts at level 1, and requires a Heart Seal that could've been used by a better unit, which means opportunity cost rears its ugly head. Setsuna doesn't measure up either - she has good speed, and not much else. She also joins later than he does in Revelation (chapter 16), which doesn't help when she's already worse off than he is. Nor does it that the only weapons stronger than the Fujin Yumi are silvers, which drop your strength and skill after combat, in addition to having a crit evade penalty, and the Pursuer, which requires S rank and drops your defenses, in addition to coming late. EDIT: Also, I'm not seeing everyone else gain little experience by that point unless you are playing Revelation and try to recruit her immediately after chapter 7 (personally, I find it best to wait until chapter 8 before playing her paralogue). And I still fail to see why you think growths are the be-all and end-all, because it's not like growths can be counted on to salvage a bad unit. Edited October 17, 2019 by Shadow Mir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starburst Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, WeAreNewcastle1053 said: Also, I'd give up the ability to dance because if Azura can't last for real long, then she can't dance for anyone anymore (also taking Classic Mode into account). How? How is it that Azura cannot "last for real long"? If you mean that protecting the refresher is complicate, then you are doing something wrong with your positioning. Two front-liners are enough to hold the enemies in 90 % of the situations, and these two-front liners plus two other units with average defence are enough to hold the enemies in the only two open maps in Conquest. Azura and all other Player Phase units are hardly ever in danger. And you are reading Azura's growths the other way round. She has overkill Strength, Skill and Speed, and good Luck and Resistance; why do you care about her HP and Defence? Offensive Player Phase units need to wipe enemies, not to hold them. If the issue is that a Player Phase unit cannot sustain a counter from a certain enemy, then it is obviously targetting the wrong enemy or it is attacking it too soon. 14 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: I have to disagree here. Mozu is Takumi+Setsuna [...] So yeah, Takumi is hyped, Setsuna and Mozu are way better than him because of Yumi being OP and having something resembling speed [...] On Mozu, any physical class is better on Mozu than on 80% of the cast (only Azama has her beat, mostly because he's stronger and much tankier but she wins in spd/skl), so wy not using her? I do not play Birthright, thus I do not know the specifics, but you are missing to take the thresholds into account. Even if Mozu were indeed better than Takumi, does Takumi meet the offensive threshold needed by his role in the party? If he does, he is a better option precisely because he is already there, it required no effort and he is enough. Note that I love Mozilla, you do not need to convince me; but I can understand why she may seem superfluous to others while playing Birthright. Edited October 17, 2019 by starburst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltosian Kadath Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: two maids with freeze staves 4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: Luring is also one thing Xander's good at, since he outruns them ... 5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: That said, while retreating, I may try to have him kill the Tomahawk users on counters. Seeing as they have armored blow, and even if he has capped strength he is dealing ~1/3 of their health (skills push is a little above but not enough to 2 hit), it would be far better to have someone that deals magic damage, and can double (easy for most units with the +5 Tomahawk counter speed, but not for Xander) to kill them on the counter. The Tomahawks are by far the easiest thing to tank, so you should be able to find a way for magic focused units to take one. 16 hours ago, starburst said: Berserkers have literally 0 % chance of hitting Hero Silas. It sounds good on paper, but in practice it means that all attacks are simply deferred to the other front-liner, which may not be what you planned. 5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: AI being what it is, that just might cause them to attack someone else, which might not be what you wanted. Trust me I know, if a 0% hit unit is blocking the corridor, you want them 1 space closer to the Berserker than your other front liner, (or use have only 0% hit units be in range, and have the AI hilariously charge and not attack) that way she/he block the space the Berserkers would use to get an extra range attack on the other front liner. 12 hours ago, WeAreNewcastle1053 said: Didn't I already say in my last post that I screwed up and married her to Jackob? Also, I'd give up the ability to dance because if Azura can't last for real long, then she can't dance for anyone anymore (also taking Classic Mode into account). I don't think you mentioned it being Jakob before (or maybe I just missed it), just that you screwed up the pairing. That locks her into either the Pegasus line, a support class, or one of the DLC classes. She starts in the best support class, so if you want to reclass Dread Fighter is your best bet, as Starburst suggested, but she will be a glass cannon. Sorry you have locked yourself out of any durable options with that blunder. For some advise for using Azura as a dancer, having a few units with Shelter can both help you both get her to safety, and allow you to have her dance more than once per turn. Having her dance multiple times will cost multiple unit's actions, as she has to be sheltered after the first dance, then have another unit transfer her over, switch to Azura and dance somebody adjacent to this new location, but sometimes letting the right unit act again can save the day; plus you can chain more dances by transferring and separating her partner away, sheltering her again, transfer her over again, switching and dancing (and possibly repeating). 12 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Sorry but your lv 11 Takumi with 11 spd isn't cutting it for me. You may have a point there, I don't know the stats or benchmarks for Birthright or Revelations well enough to really comment in detail, although I will note Takumi has a passable speed growth, and a +4 speed gain with a Sniper promotion, which makes me think he might be close to key thresholds even with those bases. Your comment as a whole is fairly obsessed with endgame potential, which will make Mozu look far better as she is a growth unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeAreNewcastle1053 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 5 hours ago, starburst said: How? How is it that Azura cannot "last for real long"? If you mean that protecting the refresher is complicate, then you are doing something wrong with your positioning. Two front-liners are enough to hold the enemies in 90 % of the situations, and these two-front liners plus two other units with average defence are enough to hold the enemies in the only two open maps in Conquest. Azura and all other Player Phase units are hardly ever in danger. You're right, I can protect Azura, but that depends on a few things. If I misjudge the fact that some Lancer can still attack Azura, Boom! Gone! If I put Ryoma in front and he gets incredibly RNG-screwed, then Azura is left in the open. This is mostly about my Birthright save, where I don't seem to have many defensive units. But she's more than happy in my Revelations save where she has a Xander and a FrostFire who are indestructible to protet her. 5 hours ago, starburst said: And you are reading Azura's growths the other way round. She has overkill Strength, Skill and Speed, and good Luck and Resistance; why do you care about her HP and Defence? Offensive Player Phase units need to wipe enemies, not to hold them. If the issue is that a Player Phase unit cannot sustain a counter from a certain enemy, then it is obviously targetting the wrong enemy or it is attacking it too soon. Why do I care about HP and Defence? Because 1. I seem to be prone to being RNG-screwed 2. Regardless of this, I at least want Azura to be able to take a few hits... even if I don't protect her properly, I don't want her to be one-shotted at the first opportunity by a stray Lancer... 4 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said: I don't think you mentioned it being Jakob before (or maybe I just missed it), just that you screwed up the pairing. That locks her into either the Pegasus line, a support class, or one of the DLC classes. She starts in the best support class, so if you want to reclass Dread Fighter is your best bet, as Starburst suggested, but she will be a glass cannon. Sorry you have locked yourself out of any durable options with that blunder. Still don't see why marriage has to be the only option to make Azura not fragile... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starburst Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 14 hours ago, WeAreNewcastle1053 said: Why do I care about HP and Defence? Because 1. I seem to be prone to being RNG-screwed 2. Regardless of this, I at least want Azura to be able to take a few hits... even if I don't protect her properly, I don't want her to be one-shotted at the first opportunity by a stray Lancer... I seriously doubt that Azura is getting stat-screwed in her relevant statistics. Does she have 15 Strength by the time that she should have 22 Str, or 11 Speed instead of 19 Spd, or so? She will always be frail, the frailest in the party, perhaps. She will never "be able to take a few hits." Why would she? Player Phase units are only hit once (twice after singing, but you are renouncing to your pop star.) The only scenario where a unit is hit more than once is during Enemy Phase. But why would you let a Player Phase unit sustain an Enemy Phase!? That is not the unit's fault but yours. HP and Defence are not the issue here, the question is how you make the most of her offensive growths. She is a superlative offensive physical Player Phase, and her growths tell you exactly that. She is a great Sniper, for example. You may already have seven reliable physical Player Phase units and need to fulfil other roles. Well, it is just unfortunate that you need what she cannot provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeAreNewcastle1053 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 8 hours ago, starburst said: I seriously doubt that Azura is getting stat-screwed in her relevant statistics. Does she have 15 Strength by the time that she should have 22 Str, or 11 Speed instead of 19 Spd, or so? She will always be frail, the frailest in the party, perhaps. She will never "be able to take a few hits." Why would she? Player Phase units are only hit once (twice after singing, but you are renouncing to your pop star.) The only scenario where a unit is hit more than once is during Enemy Phase. But why would you let a Player Phase unit sustain an Enemy Phase!? That is not the unit's fault but yours. By RNG-screwed, I don't mean stats, I mean in hit and dodge rates. Sure, I tried practising using her as a Player-Phase attacker in a skirmish, but she did end up being targeted by enemies in the Enemy Phase because I didn't have enough units that were close enough to get in the enemy's way (and even when I did, one of them had a Hand Axe). Thank God they missed, but how am I meant to completely stop her from being targeted? She's a great magekiller, but I have to make sure that there are no physical attackers who are capable of attacking her. It's not just about how difficult it is to protect Azura, but about the resources needed to protect her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 On 10/16/2019 at 4:47 PM, Shadow Mir said: I fail to see it - Mozu starts at level 1, and requires a Heart Seal that could've been used by a better unit, which means opportunity cost rears its ugly head. Setsuna doesn't measure up either - she has good speed, and not much else. She also joins later than he does in Revelation (chapter 16), which doesn't help when she's already worse off than he is. Nor does it that the only weapons stronger than the Fujin Yumi are silvers, which drop your strength and skill after combat, in addition to having a crit evade penalty, and the Pursuer, which requires S rank and drops your defenses, in addition to coming late. EDIT: Also, I'm not seeing everyone else gain little experience by that point unless you are playing Revelation and try to recruit her immediately after chapter 7 (personally, I find it best to wait until chapter 8 before playing her paralogue). And I still fail to see why you think growths are the be-all and end-all, because it's not like growths can be counted on to salvage a bad unit. On 10/17/2019 at 3:14 AM, Eltosian Kadath said: You may have a point there, I don't know the stats or benchmarks for Birthright or Revelations well enough to really comment in detail, although I will note Takumi has a passable speed growth, and a +4 speed gain with a Sniper promotion, which makes me think he might be close to key thresholds even with those bases. Your comment as a whole is fairly obsessed with endgame potential, which will make Mozu look far better as she is a growth unit. I'll recycle some data I got from I don't remember where: Lunatic Hoshido speed target (not doubled by anything/doubles most things/doubles everything, parenthesis are usually bosses or "only one ennemy on the map that has that threshold" if they'd be further outliers): H9: 8/14/17 here Mozu can reach 14 if she got most of her paralogue and some exp in 8, in any case she isn't doubled and she should be faster than Setsuna (10 base speed for Setsuna, lv 3, 7 base spd for Mozu, lv 1, 80% growth in archer with aptitude, she should be lv 7-8 if not 9 at the end of her paralogue, so 11.8 spd lv 7, 12.6 lv 8, 13.4 lv 9, that's if archer doesn't increase her speed at all, and she will reach 14 spd at level 10 on average). She's also lv 10 quite early, meaning early quick draw. That's by herself, with 0 support 0 pair up. Takumi joins lv 11 with 11 speed 2 chapters later. He won't double anything for a good chunk of the game, except LOLknights. H10: 12 (7)/16/21, here Mozu is one of the rare units who can reach 16 speed with a speed pair up and double most of the ennemies. If she reaches 17 spd, around lv 14, she doubles even the fastest ennemies (probably the thieves) with a Hana or Hinata pair up and should one round them because of quick draw. Hinoka is nowhere near ORKO threshold with WTD because her strength is hot garbo + she probably dies in 1 arrow in Lunatic. The other all need +1 minimum just to reach the 16 spd threshold, they won't double the fastest ennemies before long. H11: Takumi joins, underlevelled, with good attack and accuracy...and that's it, his def is already not spectacular for this part of the game, his res is LMAO so bad he won't ever want to face mages unless he has 100% hit rate...maybe his best use is to instant promote into sniper for more speed and early certain blow access, because it's his only salvation, and it means no flying for the next map and no res bonus (+5 or 6 res in kinshi compared with archer, no more than +2 in sniper). Meanwhile Mozu with her god tier offence should not be far from promoting after killing nearly half of the ninjas on this map, and by the end of the next chapter she should already be flying or sniping. Why her and not Takumi? Because she's got 3 chapters more of availability, 4 if you recruted her after completing chapter 7, which means she's already B support with someone, not too far from getting a kid, while Takumi has had much less time to grow (he even COSTS you one Azura dance and her being left behind for the first turn to join, and then she can't help you clean the ninja/archers swarm at the entrance of this shitty map, and for people who don't like using dancers, he forces them to use her if they want him to join for this map, or he isn't even usable before next map and requires you to send 2 units to kill him to avoid getting stabbed from behind, just recruiting him costs someone a turn from Azura refresh and he has done nothing for you until then). Wanna see her strength? 6 base lv 1, 40% personal, 15% from archer, 10% from aptitude, 65% total str growth. She stands at 12.5 str lv 11 with 15 spd on average, while Takumi has 13 str and 11 spd. He's got 15% less str growth, 25% less spd growth than Mozu, too bad he's a player phase unit that needs to double to kill all the ennemies he should kill if you don't want to waste turns. Mozu outclasses him fast in str and completely laughs at him in speed, while getting comparable skill and better def (35% personal, 10% from archer, 10% from aptitude, that's 55% def in a player phase class vs 45% for Takumi, and she has 9.5 def lv 11, once again she outclasses him in very little time), and in res she has 40% with 1 base, he has 25% with 4 base, meaning she has an average of 5 res lv 11, she beats him in speed by 4 points, in res by 1 point, she outclasses him in strength and def in a few lv ups, while he watches her surpass him, the only thing that matters where Takumi has an advantage is HP, with 26 base and 60% growth, while she has 21 average HP lv 11 and 50% growth. He's a little more durable than her, but she has the edge of being there for much longer, so you compare base Takumi to lv 15 Mozu if you used her too little for your own good, there she has 23 hp, it's only 3 points lower than him, while her speed is now 18.2, her str 15.1, her def 11.7, her res 6.6. She should already be C rank, and not too far from B rank so she can nearly use silver yumi. If you have a +1 iron yumi, their MT difference is only 3 points, if you have a +2 iron yumi then she has -1 MT compared with Fujin Yumi, stop praising Takumi for wielding a +2.5 iron Yumi please, it's nothing spectacular. With a silver yumi she has 2 MT over him, 4 with a +1 silver yumi, 6 with a +2 silver yumi. You can use silver all the time with yumi because the debuff refreshes between your turns, unlike 1 range weapons or shuriken/magic. Why give her silver and not him? Because she attacks more often (double attacks vs no double attacks when ennemies aren't simply one shot), has had much time to grow her weapon rank, and she can be your MVP for 3-4 chapters without side encounters grinding before Takumi even exists, 4 chapters for 2.5 weapon ranks seems reliable to me, especially when she's your only unit that one rounds everything she's put against, including knights, and probably not far from being the most accurate high damage unit, and doubling at that. H12: 7/12/16, here he could double with a Hana/Kagero pair up if the threshold has been correctly reported, but I don't think you can double any pegasus/falcon with 16 spd, there you're happy that yumi will basically one shoot them otherwise it would be harder. Mozu can kill pegasi at base with a bronze yumi, so even if you just recruited her she'd do the job. Anyone with a bow makes this chapter a joke, and you have 3 or 4 archers for this chapter (Setsuna, Takumi, Reina and Mozu if you used her as an archer). H13: 7(8)/13/16 (17) H14: 8(13)/17/18 (22) H15: 14/21/23 H16: same H17: 13 (16)/22/25 H18: 9/18/18 H19: 16 (27)/23/25 (36) H20: 12/21/21 H21: 18 (23)/24/27 (32) H22: 20/23/29 Mozu costs 0 spd tonic for the whole game to double most things after reaching lv 10, and speed tonic/spd pair up allows her to double the fastest ennemies in the game. PS: I thought ch 10 was Izana's castle, but it's ninja village, so some data here is not placed well, but it doesn't change the fact that Mozu beats Takumi with little investment and the returns of investing into her are having the best player phase unit in the game and someone who can ORKO every ennemy in the game, with Azura dancing for her it's 2 ennemies killed per player phase just by using Mozu. Takumi's awful speed base and his level make him unable to ever catch up in speed, he get doubled by ninjas at base and he won't even double paladins for a while except if he's speed blessed. For your information, the paladins in the chapter after Ryoma's recruited have 16 spd, Mozu doubles them without pair up before promotion on average, ensuring an ORKO, while Takumi can just weaken them for someone 1 ranged to finish them. They have 16 def by the way, so you want to double attack to kill them and as much strength as possible. Setsuna is as fast as Mozu, but with less damage (acc is fixed upon promotion), still doubling vs Takumi not doubling means much, like using str pair up insead of spd pair up, getting higher damage output because of putting all the ressources into her attack instead of needing to go out of your way to get Takumi todoubling threshold and hardly ever reaching the highest possible doubling thresholds. And she should be able to tank mages much easier than Takumi, fulfilling a role he doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flere210 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) All of this only prove that babying is op. If given an heart seal, a couple chapters focused on just train them and a +2 weapon were resources are still relatively scarce, every unit is a top tier monster. How does fare Mozu if you only use it like any other combat unit while trying to finish the maps whitout wasting time, so 2-3 levels per map at best? I assume way worse than Takumi. Edited October 20, 2019 by Flere210 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 2 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: I'll recycle some data I got from I don't remember where: Lunatic Hoshido speed target (not doubled by anything/doubles most things/doubles everything, parenthesis are usually bosses or "only one ennemy on the map that has that threshold" if they'd be further outliers): H9: 8/14/17 here Mozu can reach 14 if she got most of her paralogue and some exp in 8, in any case she isn't doubled and she should be faster than Setsuna (10 base speed for Setsuna, lv 3, 7 base spd for Mozu, lv 1, 80% growth in archer with aptitude, she should be lv 7-8 if not 9 at the end of her paralogue, so 11.8 spd lv 7, 12.6 lv 8, 13.4 lv 9, that's if archer doesn't increase her speed at all, and she will reach 14 spd at level 10 on average). She's also lv 10 quite early, meaning early quick draw. That's by herself, with 0 support 0 pair up. Takumi joins lv 11 with 11 speed 2 chapters later. He won't double anything for a good chunk of the game, except LOLknights. H10: 12 (7)/16/21, here Mozu is one of the rare units who can reach 16 speed with a speed pair up and double most of the ennemies. If she reaches 17 spd, around lv 14, she doubles even the fastest ennemies (probably the thieves) with a Hana or Hinata pair up and should one round them because of quick draw. Hinoka is nowhere near ORKO threshold with WTD because her strength is hot garbo + she probably dies in 1 arrow in Lunatic. The other all need +1 minimum just to reach the 16 spd threshold, they won't double the fastest ennemies before long. H11: Takumi joins, underlevelled, with good attack and accuracy...and that's it, his def is already not spectacular for this part of the game, his res is LMAO so bad he won't ever want to face mages unless he has 100% hit rate...maybe his best use is to instant promote into sniper for more speed and early certain blow access, because it's his only salvation, and it means no flying for the next map and no res bonus (+5 or 6 res in kinshi compared with archer, no more than +2 in sniper). Meanwhile Mozu with her god tier offence should not be far from promoting after killing nearly half of the ninjas on this map, and by the end of the next chapter she should already be flying or sniping. Why her and not Takumi? Because she's got 3 chapters more of availability, 4 if you recruted her after completing chapter 7, which means she's already B support with someone, not too far from getting a kid, while Takumi has had much less time to grow (he even COSTS you one Azura dance and her being left behind for the first turn to join, and then she can't help you clean the ninja/archers swarm at the entrance of this shitty map, and for people who don't like using dancers, he forces them to use her if they want him to join for this map, or he isn't even usable before next map and requires you to send 2 units to kill him to avoid getting stabbed from behind, just recruiting him costs someone a turn from Azura refresh and he has done nothing for you until then). Wanna see her strength? 6 base lv 1, 40% personal, 15% from archer, 10% from aptitude, 65% total str growth. She stands at 12.5 str lv 11 with 15 spd on average, while Takumi has 13 str and 11 spd. He's got 15% less str growth, 25% less spd growth than Mozu, too bad he's a player phase unit that needs to double to kill all the ennemies he should kill if you don't want to waste turns. Mozu outclasses him fast in str and completely laughs at him in speed, while getting comparable skill and better def (35% personal, 10% from archer, 10% from aptitude, that's 55% def in a player phase class vs 45% for Takumi, and she has 9.5 def lv 11, once again she outclasses him in very little time), and in res she has 40% with 1 base, he has 25% with 4 base, meaning she has an average of 5 res lv 11, she beats him in speed by 4 points, in res by 1 point, she outclasses him in strength and def in a few lv ups, while he watches her surpass him, the only thing that matters where Takumi has an advantage is HP, with 26 base and 60% growth, while she has 21 average HP lv 11 and 50% growth. He's a little more durable than her, but she has the edge of being there for much longer, so you compare base Takumi to lv 15 Mozu if you used her too little for your own good, there she has 23 hp, it's only 3 points lower than him, while her speed is now 18.2, her str 15.1, her def 11.7, her res 6.6. She should already be C rank, and not too far from B rank so she can nearly use silver yumi. If you have a +1 iron yumi, their MT difference is only 3 points, if you have a +2 iron yumi then she has -1 MT compared with Fujin Yumi, stop praising Takumi for wielding a +2.5 iron Yumi please, it's nothing spectacular. With a silver yumi she has 2 MT over him, 4 with a +1 silver yumi, 6 with a +2 silver yumi. You can use silver all the time with yumi because the debuff refreshes between your turns, unlike 1 range weapons or shuriken/magic. Why give her silver and not him? Because she attacks more often (double attacks vs no double attacks when ennemies aren't simply one shot), has had much time to grow her weapon rank, and she can be your MVP for 3-4 chapters without side encounters grinding before Takumi even exists, 4 chapters for 2.5 weapon ranks seems reliable to me, especially when she's your only unit that one rounds everything she's put against, including knights, and probably not far from being the most accurate high damage unit, and doubling at that. H12: 7/12/16, here he could double with a Hana/Kagero pair up if the threshold has been correctly reported, but I don't think you can double any pegasus/falcon with 16 spd, there you're happy that yumi will basically one shoot them otherwise it would be harder. Mozu can kill pegasi at base with a bronze yumi, so even if you just recruited her she'd do the job. Anyone with a bow makes this chapter a joke, and you have 3 or 4 archers for this chapter (Setsuna, Takumi, Reina and Mozu if you used her as an archer). H13: 7(8)/13/16 (17) H14: 8(13)/17/18 (22) H15: 14/21/23 H16: same H17: 13 (16)/22/25 H18: 9/18/18 H19: 16 (27)/23/25 (36) H20: 12/21/21 H21: 18 (23)/24/27 (32) H22: 20/23/29 Mozu costs 0 spd tonic for the whole game to double most things after reaching lv 10, and speed tonic/spd pair up allows her to double the fastest ennemies in the game. PS: I thought ch 10 was Izana's castle, but it's ninja village, so some data here is not placed well, but it doesn't change the fact that Mozu beats Takumi with little investment and the returns of investing into her are having the best player phase unit in the game and someone who can ORKO every ennemy in the game, with Azura dancing for her it's 2 ennemies killed per player phase just by using Mozu. Takumi's awful speed base and his level make him unable to ever catch up in speed, he get doubled by ninjas at base and he won't even double paladins for a while except if he's speed blessed. For your information, the paladins in the chapter after Ryoma's recruited have 16 spd, Mozu doubles them without pair up before promotion on average, ensuring an ORKO, while Takumi can just weaken them for someone 1 ranged to finish them. They have 16 def by the way, so you want to double attack to kill them and as much strength as possible. Setsuna is as fast as Mozu, but with less damage (acc is fixed upon promotion), still doubling vs Takumi not doubling means much, like using str pair up insead of spd pair up, getting higher damage output because of putting all the ressources into her attack instead of needing to go out of your way to get Takumi todoubling threshold and hardly ever reaching the highest possible doubling thresholds. And she should be able to tank mages much easier than Takumi, fulfilling a role he doesn't. You do realize the amount of investment you're giving her is completely absurd? Which only proves my point - that she requires a lot of babying and investment and doesn't pay off well enough to justify it. Also, your other units on the team pay the price for this supercharged Mozu. Unless you think she is the team. And while Takumi fares poorly against mages, I wouldn't really think of sending Mozu against mages either. Incidentally, Takumi can one-shot ninjas on offense in his join chapter, which is great because it spares me the worry of getting debuffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Flere210 said: All of this only prove that babying is op. If given an heart seal, a couple chapters focused on just train them and a +2 weapon were resources are still relatively scarce, every unit is a top tier monster. How does fare Mozu if you only use it like any other combat unit while trying to finish the maps whitout wasting time, so 2-3 levels per map at best? I assume way worse than Takumi. 4 chapters of 3 levels per chapter = 12 level ups, level 13, she's already better than Takumi. That's only giving her 3 levels in her paralogue with low level ennemies that barely give more than 2 level ups to Silas except the boss. It's a waste of exp to give 2 lv ups to Silas with the normal ennemies, just give the kills of the western and northern parts to Mozu, all the rushing faceless to the unit youwant to train on the way to save Mozu, and chip damage either with Mozu or with the one you want to train that's not her. She'll automatically get 4-5 level ups just like that, which leads her to level 14-15 with 3 level ups per story chapter. She's your best boss killer after little training BTW, you know the same way Rutger, who doesn't seem all that amazing on paper, who's the only unit able to dislay decent hit rates on bosses? Well, Mozu doesn't have to take a counter from the bosses, she doesn't take long before she doubles them, and can abuse attack stance if needed to chip the boss for free. She has average defensive stats alongside excellent offence (50% str without class growths, 65% in archer, 60% in villager, 75% spd in villager, 80% in archer, 55% def in both, 40% res in both, 50% HP in both, 70% skl in villager, 75% in archer, 75% luck in villager, 55% in archer, she literally has 50% HP as her worst physical growth, anything else is higher than 60%). I am not using her like any other combat unit, I am using her like the player phase killer that she is after a few level ups, and those level ups are the easiest to get from your whole party since no one else starts lv 1 except your servant who could be level 5 already and only needs to heal in order to gain exp. She has a map made esecially for her to catch up while other units get much less exp per fight/kill than she does, and they have half of the map to grow before you even reach Mozu so it's a non factor, and a good long term unit gaining 5 level ups is far superior to an average unit gaining 2 level ups and not bringing much long term. Silas is a slowpoke (yes slower than Subaki, -2 speed with +1 base level and no darting blow will never catch up with Subaki's speed, not with a 10 or 15% higher speed growth and 1 less level to grow, and people already trash on Subaki for being slow), Oboro is even slower than Silas, she only enjoys a higher base speed but it's nothing amazing, 13 spd won't get her in doubling range against more than 1-3rd of the ennemies in the game, to reach 50% doubling she needs a +4 spd pair up for the whole game and it hurts both her attack and her def/res she needs 1 spd tonic per chapter to double more than half of the ennemies with a Hinata, Kaze, Saizo or Ryoma pair up (no support ranks). Do you realize that I didn't particularly favor her, I just distributed my ressources the best way to have a brighter future. Mozu being one of the 2 best non prepromotes with Azama, who deosn't need anything else than waiting for promotion to be god, is the best unit to use your early seal on. Takumi one shoots them, good, now I just proved you that Mozu or Setsuna can do the same (Setsuna needing a strength pair up) while also being able to double everyone but the ninjas in this chapter, withou any speed bonus while Takumi needs artificial boosts to his speed for the whole game to be able to double less than 50% of the ennemies, while these 2 do it without anything but some level ups. Takumi is a ressource sponge if you want him to be more than an occasional help, Mozu is a MVP, see the difference? MVP vs occasional help? Subaki wasn't designed for combat even though I find him salvageable thanks to darting blow and hybrid acceptable growths alongside good def for a peg and only ninjas and Takumi/Mozu/Hana match him in skill so he's as accurate and susceptible to proc skills than the most skill oriented classes while being a flyer, + access to kinshi to help his MT problems with yumi even though he's far from Mozu/Takumi in raw damage and lower than Mozu in speed even though he matches Takumi's speed without darting blow and is faster than Takumi for around 25 levels with darting blow until level 20/10-15 promoted. So, who else would you class change? Paladin Jakob is not needed at all, he might even end up slower than Silas, or weaker, or anything since he's very prone to RNG screwing (very low GR with nothing impressive in his base stats, no 1-2 doubling weapon access, etc.), Corrin is worse in any non promoted class than in his/her base class since dragonstone is all he/she's good at with almost 0 personal base stats to benefit from in another class and his class being a jack of all trades leadin him/her to have good average stats to go into better promoted classes than LOLHoshido noble. MU skills can be bought from 40% of the castles in my castle battles/visits ranking for little gold and 0 effort other than setting a wi fi connection to your 3DS and using it when you start a new file, so there's no use for reclassing into a class where he/she will loose dragonstone access and have worse stats. Most of the good skill setups are free to get because the players were kind enough to set a non attacking team for defense so you just rush the throne. You can get aptitude or Recover from like 50% of these castles on Corrin without any effort, aptitude might cost too much so you just go for recover and dragonstone Corrin is fine for all of the time not promoted. At the end, Mozu is the only good candidate for the seal you get from your shop (not even suggesting my castle shops where you can get as much as you have gold and you can also have unlimited gold in Hoshido with little effort, and gold DLC costs like 2$, I think if you bought all 3 routes, you're not afraid of adding 2$ to farm some gold to get forges and seals if you don't spit on wi fi stuff, since free to pay DLC can be used as much as you want). Mozu doesn't need any stat bonus item to be good and she'l much less prone to RNG screwage than anyone else (except Azama) due to having amazing growths. You could also let someone else use the second seal and give her a DLC class which will make her your best unit in little more than 3 level ups and she'll become your MVP for the hole game. Why her and not Jakob? Jakob is level 21+ when in a DLC class, he looses the benefit of being a promoted class with normal exp since now he exp like a promoted unit (I've tried it, I've been really deceived) so he becomes instantly worse than anyone else. Why not Silas? Because he still is a jack of all trades, master of none, also because he is no more a tank with less def growth which isn't too bad at first but might end up throwing the unit later into the game. He still isn't anything amazing as he remains Silas and won't ever be Ryoma. Why not Kaze? Because Kaze is worse than Mozu in anything but HP (5%), overkill spd (10%) and res (15%), everything else is worse than Mozu, especially def (20%). Why not Hana? Because she's much squishier than Mozu. Why not Hinoka? She looses fyling utility and her probably best class is already in her second class option. She's still inferior to Mozu in everything but speed and magical bulk. She has no interest in DLC classes, except maybe dark flyer if you want her to use the bolt naginata, which is accessible after like chapter 13 has been completed. Etc + you have 2 of each DLC class promotion items from bonus route, 1 great lord promotion item...it's not like you're short on options for each gender. Few units are good at ballistician, only Takumi was made for it, which leaves the archer class free to use for a faster unit, like Mozu or Setsuna. Takumi as a ballistician can soften the ennemies for the whole game so your PP is more efficient. It's clearly his best role and biggest contribution (and he has the skill to use the ballista). Keep your stat boosters for good units who need them, save yourself the trouble of using average units who need several stat boosters very claimed in the party, by using units who don't need them. Mozu doesn't need stat boosters, all she needs is one seal, and even without it she's better than several units in the party (yes, in villager, it doesn't change her hp, def, res, only +5% str, skl and spd and +15% luck, base stats are about the same, the major difference is naginata vs yumi). Now argue all you want, it doesn't change the facts, Mozu has near perfect availability, can benefit from any class from level 1 to level 99 promoted, use any physical weapon with perfect performance, she outspeeds more than 2/3rds of Hoshido cast (which tells a lot considering Hoshido is the fastest cast on average in FE history) and the longer she's used the more OP she becomes, a real MVP for many players who invested 2000 gold into her at the beginning of the game and got carried by this little shrimp. Exp invested in her is beneficial, exp invested in Takumi is near useless since his base stats are all he needs to be useful before he becomes bench warmer or he goes to ballistician to be actually useful. Exp invested into Silas/Oboro gives you a tank that 2RKO ennemies. Exp given to Saizo gives you a jack of all trades. Exp given to Ryoma is a waste before he really gains exp since he can go a long way with bases alone and not hurt your party members by stealing their exp. Exp given to Orochi is a waste. Exp given to Kaze will give you a mage killer that needs a mechanist promotion to stay relevant mid game onwards. Exp given to Kagero gives you a mage killer who can also kill physical ennemies but prefers to stay far away from any physical threat just like Azura. That's it. ON THE TOPIC: Hana with Setsuna A+ and Silas S: elbow room vantage quick draw with yumi if you can get her Point blank, can be funny to see her OS the ennemies coming at her. PPS: "You do realize the amount of investment you're giving her is completely absurd? Which only proves my point - that she requires a lot of babying and investment and doesn't pay off well enough to justify it. Also, your other units on the team pay the price for this supercharged Mozu. Unless you think she is the team. And while Takumi fares poorly against mages, I wouldn't really think of sending Mozu against mages either. Incidentally, Takumi can one-shot ninjas on offense in his join chapter, which is great because it spares me the worry of getting debuffed." (didn't manage to quote in the edit) Except Mozu isn't a regular unit, she's the MVP of your team,with the only concurrence being Azama before Ryoma joins with Scarlet. You can even bench all your team to only use Mozu, Azama, Scarlet and Ryoma, and healers and Azura since it's all these 4 need to auto win the game. Every other unit is inferior to them. Spending exp into units that don't do much from midgame and aren't Xander/Benny level tanks is far less efficient than spending it in units who will carry and walk in the park. Edited October 20, 2019 by mangasdeouf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starburst Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 4 hours ago, Flere210 said: All of this only prove that babying is op. If given an heart seal, a couple chapters focused on just train them and a +2 weapon were resources are still relatively scarce, every unit is a top tier monster. How does fare Mozu if you only use it like any other combat unit while trying to finish the maps whitout wasting time, so 2-3 levels per map at best? Mozu's Paralogue is available super early in Conquest, and the available units do not gain much Experience points from those kills anyway. The map itself is so easy that it can be completed with only Cornflakes (L10-11) and Silas (L7) right after Chapter 7. Mozu is always recruited and re-classed by Turn 4, and from that moment onwards she can kill every single enemy on Attack Stance. (I prefer to play it after Ch 8, though; so that Odin and Niles can get support points with their suitors, and Odin can round a level or two.) What exactly do you mean by "wasting time"? Mozu reaches L8-9 in about ten minutes in her own map. Granted, it requires more turns because she has to get every kill separately using Attack Stance, but how fast do you usually complete the map? Say, five minutes? OK. Then, do five more minutes actually mean "wasting time"? It is your call, but I think that one can easily spend the same five minutes making preparations for any of the later maps. Why the rule of "2-3 levels per map at beast"? The natural flow of a Player-Phase-intensive game tells you that Player-Phase-offensive units will invariably get more Experience points than the front-liners, precisely because their role is to wipe the screen. It is expected that the Wyvern Lord who held the lines will get less Exp than the Sorcerer right behind it, because the number of battles sustained by a front-liner is exaggeratedly bigger than the number of kills that they can get. On the other hand, the number of battles of a Player-Phase-offensive unit is very close to their number of kills. And this is coming from someone who does not use "backpacks" and whose all ten units are within 2-4 Levels from each other at any given point in the campaign. In the end, and as I mentioned on earlier on this thread, Mozu depends on the player's will and not really on herself. If one decides to use her and acts accordingly (investing a Heart Seal, some minutes and Experience points on her in her own map), then she is a great asset in Conquest because she never falls off and fulfils the role of a physical Player Phase unit better than the great majority of units (probably everyone.) Conversely, if one is hesitant about using her and decides not to use a seal or some minutes or Exp, she will never take off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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